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Mudkip
10-06-2010, 22:55
I've been curious about the possibilities of this, as I'm sure many people have. I was thinking of running a glorious peasant horde, 50 strong with halbers to tear through the enemy so I did some maths to see how they would work out in practise.

So I'm going to do some comparisons between different types of “horde units” that I think people are likely to field. Those are the 10-wide units that benefit from an extra rank of attacks in 8th edition. I think 40 or 50 are both good number of models to have in these units, but I'm going to stick with 50 here. Also, when presented with weapon options I'm going to choose offensively orientated weapons, since if you want to play it defensively then it's surely beter to go 5-wide and many ranks deep to take advantage of the Steadfast (stubborn) rule instead.

Men at Arms
It's not that these guys are good (they aren't), but they are certainly cheap, coming with a spear or halberd as well as a shield for less than the cost of most infantry with just a basic weapon.

Compared to Empire state troops, their weapon skill 2 hurts their survivability in combat, but their “free” shields makes them more robust against shooting. Against WS4 it won't matter whether they are WS2 or 3 (they are hitting on 4's and being hit on 3's either way), whereas against WS5 opponents they will actually be hitting the enemy on 5's which will cause their damage output to drop off a cliff. In those cases they will probably want to switch over to hand weapon and shields to limit the damage.

So how would M@A do against other horde units?

50 Men at Arms 277 Points
Halberds and shields, command.

Vs 50 Empire Halberdiers 270 Points
Halberds, command.

*Halberdiers do 13 wounds, whereas the men at arms do 10. Clearly the weapon skill 3 of the Empire state troops wins out, which is what you'd expect really.

Vs 50 Night Goblins 255 Points
Spears and shields, nets, command.

*Battle of the low weapon skills. The gobbos do a healthy 9 wounds. The M@A only manage to do 6 wounds back, the gobbo netters are killing them here with their -1 strenght modifier.

Vs 50 Goblins 270 Points
Spears, shields and light armour, command.

*8 wounds from the M@A followed by 9 from the Goblins. Empire Halberdiers would do 11 wounds and win the combat, but the M@A manage to lose.

Vs 50 Orcs 380 Points
Additional choppas and light armour, command.

*The Orcs do 19 kills! 19! With WS2, T3 and no save the peasant soldiers are like lambs to the slaughter. Oh the humanity. This is a worst-case scenario for M@A, who manage to do 8 wounds back. Interestingly they do the same amount of wounds against Orcs as they do against Gobbos with shields and light armour, and more wounds against Orcs than they did against the lowly Night Gobbos and their netters.


Vs 50 Skaven Clanrats 270 Points
Spears, shields and light armour, command.

*11 vs 8 kills. The Men at Arms are owned again by yet another slightly cheaper unit than themselves. It's a good job you don't give up victory points for losing a peasant banner.

Vs 50 High Elf Spearmen 475 Points (lolololol)
Spears, shields and light armour, command.

*Ok don't laugh, I'm just running the numbers for fun. The Elven Spearmen do a good 14 kills (edit: 18 including rerolls to hit), but it hardly justifies the 500 point price tag. They take 9 return losses from the M@A. It's worth noting that since all 50 of the elves get to attack, any losses they take causes them to lose attacks in the second round, unlike everybody else so far. The only saving grace here is that Men at Arms perform no better or worse than Empire Halberdiers who get pwnt just as hard, but the M@A at least come with built-in shields to protect them from elven arrows and spells so I'd say they win out here.

Vs 50 Dark Elf Warriors 365 Points
Spears, shields and light armour, command.

*Ok this is still kinda ridiculous since I doubt anybody would take a unit of horde Dark Elves, but lets do it anyway. The Dark Elves do 11 wounds (edit: 15 including hatred) to the M@A 9. So yeah, I doubt we'll be seeing horde Dark Eves anytime soon with results like this. As I've said, M@A suffer no additional disadvantage against WS4 opponents so their results even out compared to WS3 units like Empire Halberdiers, who again get the same results.


Conclusion: M@A suck vs everybody! The problem with M@A is that whilst they are essentially equal to Empire Halberdiers against WS4 opponents, they are being owned by weapon skill 3 units. They can't even put the hurt on Goblins. Their low weapon skill is a bigger deal than I thought. All the other relatively cheap horde unit can beat them on a regular basis, they seems to be practically the worst troops in Warhammer for this sort of thing.

I don't think I'll be running horde M@A after all. A halberd is no weapon for a mere peasant! As I've been suggesting, I suspect Empire Halberdiers to generally perform better so I think I'll run the humbers on them next, or Orc Boys who I reckon may turn out to be the best candidates for horde units.

Malorian
10-06-2010, 23:01
Conclusion: M@A suck vs everybody!

I've been saying this for years :p:D


I really don't think horde is the way you want to go with them anyway. You want a lot of ranks to keep them stubborn and then use them to bog down one flank while your knights crush the other.

dragonet111
10-06-2010, 23:02
I'm planning a horde, 40 horros with banner of change it cost you a leg but it can be nasty. I'm really looking forward to see if the idea and the real game will match:D.

snottlebocket
10-06-2010, 23:17
Yeah but do those other infantry units know anything about husbandry and raising crops?

Paraelix
10-06-2010, 23:20
I think you've miffed your High Elves. Did you count the rerolls to hit for ASF? I ran the numbers and landed approx 16 kills. Did you count hatred for DE? (oops forgot the champion in the Helves >_>)

50x Ungor- spear, shield + Command = 315 (:/)
Hit with 27, wound with 14, you save 1 and a bit.

50x Gors- AHW, command = 425
Again hit with about 26, wound with 13, you save one and a bit.
Note that there are reasonable odds to land Hatred with these units though...

50x Dwarfs- Grt Wpns, Hvy Armour, Command = 525
20 hits, approx 17 wounds, you save none. But you did get to strike first...

:D

EDIT- Oh Crap... I forgot the +1 rank for Hording... EDIT EDIT- Adjusted

decker_cky
10-06-2010, 23:21
I'm telling you....stormvermin will be where it's at. 7 pts per model, ability to fill out numbers with a screaming bell, WS4 I5 and heavy armour will make them very useful come 8th.

Most importantly....small bases so they don't fill up half of your battle line.

Mudkip
10-06-2010, 23:23
Thanks for reminding me, I forgot hatred and ASF actually. With those I calculate 18 kills for HE spearmen and 15 for DE.

Now that you mention it Stormvermin are quite interesting, they are certainly a much better platform for halberds. They might even be better than Orc Boys.

nick_robinsonchia
10-06-2010, 23:34
I'm telling you....stormvermin will be where it's at. 7 pts per model, ability to fill out numbers with a screaming bell, WS4 I5 and heavy armour will make them very useful come 8th.

Most importantly....small bases so they don't fill up half of your battle line.

Dont forget skavenbrew from a friendly grey seer! Yeah im planning a new skaven army revoling around one of the big blocks of SV. They will be damn nice.... WS/S4 I5 and potential for hatred/frenzy all on a small base is golden. Honestly I wouldnt put a screaming bell in there it eats up too many attacking spaces. Save that for the clanrats if you want is my thoughts.

N

nick_robinsonchia
10-06-2010, 23:39
Thanks for reminding me, I forgot hatred and ASF actually. With those I calculate 18 kills for HE spearmen and 15 for DE.

Now that you mention it Stormvermin are quite interesting, they are certainly a much better platform for halberds. They might even be better than Orc Boys.

While ur doing the comparisons Id suggest looking at Khorne maruaders with great weapons. Point for point they should munch any unit in the game with the possible exception of the hatred stormvermin.

Just did it briefly and the marauders beat the Hatred(skavenbrew) SV by a small margin. Around 16 kills each. Regular SV get mowed down. And thats both with 50 models. I.E the SV being 2 points more expensive.

N

Mudkip
10-06-2010, 23:44
Will do. I'm comparing Orcs to other units at the moment.

R Man
10-06-2010, 23:50
Of course, the Elves and the Orcs are worth far more than the M@A, and them M@A do have Peasants Duty and may be stubborn on LD 8 if a knight is near. Maybe, depending on the rules.

Eta
11-06-2010, 00:00
50 marauders with great weapons, full command and mark of Khorne = 310
Men-at-Arms strike first and kill 10 marauders. Marauders strike back, about 27 hits, 22 wounds and kills. Men-at-Arms are no longer stubborn and will probably break.

Greetings
Eta

Mudkip
11-06-2010, 00:03
Of course, the Elves and the Orcs are worth far more than the M@A, and them M@A do have Peasants Duty and may be stubborn on LD 8 if a knight is near. Maybe, depending on the rules.

Good point, but it really does depend on the rules. If they can only use their own leadership for stubborn it won't be worth much, but if they can use a knight's leadership then thats a whole other matter.

ScytheSwathe
11-06-2010, 00:09
I was about to claim that horde units simply wont be worth it, effectively doubling your frontage for a measly extra rank attacking? thats alot of point on units which typically wont do much damage anyway, while piling those extra models into deep narrow units will make stubbornness almost a certainty. Thats where the big units will excel in my opinion.


I'm telling you....stormvermin will be where it's at. 7 pts per model, ability to fill out numbers with a screaming bell, WS4 I5 and heavy armour will make them very useful come 8th.

Most importantly....small bases so they don't fill up half of your battle line.
Then i saw that. good call on the bell filling out numbers.

decker_cky
11-06-2010, 00:20
Bell makes them unbreakable too, so you don't need to worry about the unit being too deep.

Mudkip
11-06-2010, 00:28
Orc Boys
These reasonably priced infantry seems to beat all the competition due to the combination of strength and toughness 4 combined with a good number of attacks. Because you only get one attack per model past the first rank, choppas still grant the same number of extra attacks as spears, and grant extra attacks for longer in the case that your ranks start being depleted (a problem that High Elves desperately suffer from). Since they lose their strenght bonus after the first round I'll take two rounds of combat into account. Also the Boss is much stronger than a regular champion (3 str5 attacks in the first round), but he's only initiative 2 and vulernable to being picked out. I won't factor this into my maths but it's worth keeping in mind.

50 Orc Boys 380 Points
Additional choppas and light armour, command.

Vs 50 Stormvermin 375 Points
Halbers and heavy armour, command.

*The Stormvermin rack up 10 kills, but the Orcs come back with 12 and win the round. Although with certain upgrades the Stormvermin coulds wipe the floor with the Orcs, but at basic stats they lose. The Stormvermin will have the advantage in the second round however as the Orcs lose their strenght bonus and only do 7 kills. So the Stormvermin would probably win eventually as long as they pass their leadership test from losing the first round of combat.

Vs 50 Empire Halberdiers 270 Points
Halberds, command.

*The Orcs don't quite match up to the slaughter they inflict on Men at Arms, but they get a more than solid 14 Kills. Ouch! The Halberdiers get 8 back which is just not enough. In the second round of combat the Orcs only get 9 kills, but it's still enough to beat the Halberdiers again.

Vs 50 Skaven Clanrats 270 Points
Spears, shields and light armour, command.

*Skaven do a pretty miserable 6 wounds whereas the Orcs do 12. The Orcs do 7 wounds thereafter so they should win in the end.

Vs 50 Night Goblins 255 Points
Spears and shields, nets, command.

*Luckily for the Night Gobbos, their nets stop them from receiving an epic pwning of the sort the Orcs handed out to the Men at Arms, but they still take 12 losses and only do 6 back. Without netters, common goblins are not so fortunate...

Vs 50 Khorne Marauders 300 Points
Great weapons, mark of khorne, command.

An interesting thing about Marks of Chaos is that they are not a point-per-model deal, so the larger the unit is the “cheaper” the upgrade relatively becomes. Anyway, the Orcs put out another solid showing of senseless brutality with 14 kills, but the Marauders come back with a whopping 18 kills! Oh lawd! Assuming the Orcs stick around after this beating, they do another 11 wounds in the next round, meaning half the Marauders are already dead by now causung them to some some return attacks. But it doesn't stop them from putting out another 16 kills. Solid win for the Marauders. What a bloodbath.

Vs 50 Gors 425 Points
Additional hand weapons, command.

*Lets be generous and say the Gors get hatred, letting them rack up a good 10 kills on the Orcs, but the Orcs edge out a win on 11. (If the Gors have frenzy they would likely score 13 kills and win). Now the Gors lose hatred and the Orcs are strength 3, leading to 8 kills (10 with frenzy) from the Gors followed by 7 from the Orcs. So it seems that the Orcs do well on the first round but eventually lose out to the Gors higher weapon skill.

Conclusion: Orcs love a good brawl and pose a threat to everybody. They can be beaten by some expensive, elite units (and Gors I guess) and they are fairly costly themselves, but they always put up a good fight. Their base size is an issue.

Schmapdi
11-06-2010, 00:43
What about Gnoblars?!?! Or skeletons or zombies for that matter. Surely they would make the MoA look good.

Mudkip
11-06-2010, 00:45
Skeletons are expensive and both units have both low damage output and survivability. They are just there to provide static combat res for the vampire that has joined them, so I can't see why anybody would use them horde style. Crypt Ghouls maybe. I'm not too familiar with Ogres either TBH.

Paraelix
11-06-2010, 00:48
Now the Gors lose hatred and the Orcs are strength 3, leading to 8 kills from the Gors followed by 7 from the Orcs. So it seems that the Orcs do well on the first round but eventually lose out to the Gors higher weapon skill.


The Gors test every round for Hatred and count it as the first round of combat. There is also the possibility of Frenzy.

Mudkip
11-06-2010, 00:52
OK. If they had frenzy then chances are they'd win the first round with an extra 2-3 wounds and every round thereafter even more convincingly. You'd hope so at 425 points.

Paraelix
11-06-2010, 01:11
They only get Frenzy on a double 1 when rolling their primal fury... Unless Malagor is nearby...

King_Pash
11-06-2010, 01:16
That's some pretty good mathhammer guys, thanks for posting. Anyone considered a horde elite infantry? Perhaps throw in some High Elf infantry like Phoenix Guard or White Lions...

BattleofLund
11-06-2010, 01:20
So the Khorne Marauder with battleaxe and a deathwish is where it's at, eh? Can't say I'm disappointed, but what about Saurus? Surely huge numbers of Str4 Attacks from well-armoured T4 saurids will be a Horde King contender?

Mudkip
11-06-2010, 01:26
Lizardmen are just too expensive to be used in Horde formation (like Chaos Warriors). They would beat the Khorne Marauders, but then they cost twice as much (over 600 points).

I think some elite horde inf could work. 30 Swordmasters could be fun, although I doubt even they could stand up to the Khorne Marauders.

nick_robinsonchia
11-06-2010, 01:40
It would be close even at twice the cost.

HW and Shield Saurus 40 S4 attacks 20 hit 13.2 deaths.

Maruader 40 S5 attacks 26.4 Hits 17.424 wounds 14.46(6+/6++ saves) 12 Kills.

So 13 to 12. not really that impressive for a unit that expensive. Given equal points the marauders would grind them down for sure.

Paraelix
11-06-2010, 01:42
Not even that... Saurus are hamstrung by the new rules. A standard unit gets 2 attacs per model in front and 1 per model in 2nd and 3rd rank (spears)... Whereas under the current rules, they get 2 per model in front AND 2 per model in 2nd rank.

Hording would only slightly alter their ability.

Multi-attack elite models don't benefit as much as single attack elites.

Mudkip
11-06-2010, 01:49
Yeah, with spears they would only gain 25% extra attacks from the additional horde rank (33% extra with HW+shields). The Men at Arms were gaining 50% extra attacks (for all the good it did).

Mudkip
11-06-2010, 02:16
And yet another point regarding hordes. What if they fight a regular unit?

Lets compare two units.

50 Empire Swordsmen (10 wide, 5 deep) 320 Points
Swords, shields, command.

50 Men at Arms (10 wide, 5 deep) 277 Points
Halberds, shields command.

*The M@A do 7 kills vs 9 from the swordsmen. Once again the M@A demonstrate how useless they are. Interestingly the Swordsmen hardly benefit from their extra 6++ parry save, they took 7 losses just like a Spearmen regiment would in this situation. But what if the Swordsmen deploy 5-wide and 10-deep instead?

In that case, the M@A would be able to get 7 models into base-to base contact, so they'd only get 22 attacks instead of 31 (including champion). The swordsmen take 5 losses and do 3 kills back. So the M@A win for once! Of course the swordsmen are stubborn on at least leadership 7, almost certainly with a battle standard bearer nearby so the battle could probably drag on all game at this rate.

Against 5-wide Orc boys, the M@A would probably draw rather than get utterly slaughtered.

Ramius4
11-06-2010, 03:34
I've still been trying to figure out why GW seems to think the horde rule is beneficial. Yeah, you can get a few more attacks in, but most of the troops that can affordably become a horde don't hit hard enough to care. The trade off is that you lose your rank bonus faster than a narrower unit would.

I would think there would be more to it than the rumors have told.

Consider this:

A horde unit of 40 models has exactly 3 ranks. They'll begin to lose a rank after only a single casualty. They've probably gained an average of 7 Strength 3 Attacks (assuming enemy 5 wide and all things in hordes fight if a model in front is in base contact). Out of those attacks you may cause an extra wound, perhaps two, but you'll definitely be losing a point of rank bonus.

A non-horde unit of say 30 models on the other hand deployed 6 wide and 5 ranks deep won't start losing rank bonus until they've lost 7 models. You'll lose that extra rank of attacks, and perhaps come out with 1 less combat resolution than the horde would. But... If more ranks equals stubborn, then I see absolutely no downside to this.

Granted, my examples are extremely generalized, but horde type units aren't out there to cause mass casualties, they're the troops you want to be stubborn and grind the enemy down. And you can do seemingly do that better for less models, and therefore less points than you would for a horde.


Yeah but do those other infantry units know anything about husbandry and raising crops?

You win best off topic award:p

Mudkip
11-06-2010, 03:38
If they are 10-wide then they still need to take 5 casualties to lose a rank BTW, you only need 5 models to get a rank bonus.

Ramius4
11-06-2010, 04:18
If they are 10-wide then they still need to take 5 casualties to lose a rank BTW, you only need 5 models to get a rank bonus.

True enough. But the other half of my point still stands. You'll typically have to spend significantly more points to reach the same rank bonus in the first place. And probably not for very much net gain in hitting power.

There's some good exceptions to that offensive power, but you're generally looking at a boatload of points.

Zaustus
11-06-2010, 04:32
I've got to say, 50 Khorne Marauders with great weapons look pretty nutty with the horde rule.

vs. Empire Halberdiers: Halberdiers kill 10, but Marauder respond back with 23 kills!

vs. Empire Swordsmen: Swordsmen kill 8, Marauders strike back for 14 kills.

vs. Night Gobbos w/ nets, spears, shields: Gobbos kill 10, Marauders kill 18.

vs. Gobbos w/ LA, spears, shields: Gobbos kill 10, Marauders kill 19.

vs. Orcs w/ extra choppas, LA: Orcs kill 14, Marauders kill 18. Second round, Orcs kill 10, Marauders kill 16.

vs. Stormvermin w/ HA, halberds: SV kill 10, Marauders kill 17.

vs. Dwarf Warriors w/ HA, shields: Dwarfs (striking first!) kill 8, Marauders kill 11.
Dwarfs probably won't go horde anyway, but I just thought I'd run the numbers. In fact, it probably makes more sense for them to horde up if they use GWs:

vs. Dwarf Warriors w/ HA, GW: Marauders (striking first!) kill 14, Dwarfs kill 13. Not impressive for the Dwarfs when you consider that unit costs 525 points, to just 300 for the Marauders.

A last one, just for fun: vs. a horde of Chaos Warriors, Khorne, halberds: Warriors kill 28 Marauders, reducing their attacks back. They kill 9 in return. Ouch. But that's what happens when you pit a 300 point unit against an 860(!) point unit.

Paraelix
11-06-2010, 04:35
It depends what you're buying... Clanrats are like 4 or 5 pts? Gobbos are 3? Hell, the store manager at my local has shelled out the pts to start the battle with a unit of 50 zombies with muso and standard.

EDIT- Why are Dwarf Grt Wpns going after Marauders? Aren't all strikes last attacks completed simultaneously?

Vsurma
11-06-2010, 10:03
Certainly looks like khorne marauders with GWs are the main benefactor of the horde rule.

Still unless your unit is well over 30 strong, your basically going to be losing a lot of power in each combat. Looks like the kind of unit you really don't want to get stuck in with when they are at full combat power.

Shooting, magic will be needed to reduce their numbers, and considering how little (if any) armour they have, it doesn't seem too bad that they are very powerful, seeing as they have a huge disadvantage also.

PurchasedPig
11-06-2010, 10:53
This is true but I will still be adding 50 strong M-A-A units to my Brets, 5x10 rather than vice versa and (assuming the ability to use the Leadership of others for the purposes of Stubborn) a very hard block to break and ideal anvil for the Knights, especially with the rumoured variable charging rules. They will also be able to take objectives dependably on the cheap.

Bearing all this in mind, however, they are still (in my opinion) very nice models, a nice compliment to the otherwise bright army and generally very fun to have.

Note: this will change significantly if they CAN'T use the Leadership of others for Stubborn as I would prefer to just have another 8 Knights! If they can, however, I reckon the ability to use the Knights Ld when within 6" will (finally) make them worth the points they cost as an anvil.

EDIT: Apologies for the slight off-topicness, on topic I don't think M-A-A are good for the thoughts of Horde rules as the example shows. They simply can't fight there way through a bunch of pacifist hippies with a water cannon.

-PurchasedPig-

sipron
11-06-2010, 11:46
Has anyone thoght about Kislev Kossars, great weapons and bow. They are a bit priey at 450pts for a unit of 50, but with 30 s5 attacks and 35 arrows they might be worth it.

Rochr
11-06-2010, 13:13
50 Chaos Marauders with a Full Command, Flails, Light Armour and Mark of Khorne are like 350 Points.

WS 4, Initiative 4, Frenzied.

Ultimate horde unit.

nick_robinsonchia
11-06-2010, 13:39
50 Chaos Marauders with a Full Command, Flails, Light Armour and Mark of Khorne are like 350 Points.

WS 4, Initiative 4, Frenzied.

Ultimate horde unit.

Nah they don't have the staying power with flails. Light armors a waste as well. Keep em cheap at 300. I like units of 20 with flails and musician as flankers. Nice little unit to take away ranks do a little damage and weighing in at only 99p.

N

Rochr
11-06-2010, 14:24
Nah they don't have the staying power with flails. Light armors a waste as well. Keep em cheap at 300. I like units of 20 with flails and musician as flankers. Nice little unit to take away ranks do a little damage and weighing in at only 99p.

N

Then give them shields instead of Flails maybe. I just don't like giving a unit with I4 Greater Weapons if it means they will strike last (which I assume they will?).

Eta
11-06-2010, 14:53
Then give them shields instead of Flails maybe. I just don't like giving a unit with I4 Greater Weapons if it means they will strike last (which I assume they will?).

They will strike last. But they are cheap and the step-up rule helps a lot. And the sight of 50 naked madmen with huge weapons charging your lines is too good to pass :D

Greetings
Eta

horror
11-06-2010, 16:33
I wonder if there will be any point in taking a horde of 50 skaven slaves with spears...

PurchasedPig
11-06-2010, 16:34
I wonder if there will be any point in taking a horde of 50 skaven slaves with spears...

No. Just No.

Ramius4
11-06-2010, 16:51
I wonder if there will be any point in taking a horde of 50 skaven slaves with spears...

I see no reason not to. Skaven slaves attack just as well as Clanrats. They just have slightly less armor. Keep them near the general and they're going off a good Ld too. And the best thing about Slaves? If they do run and die, who cares? :p

BattleofLund
11-06-2010, 17:09
And the sight of 50 naked madmen with huge weapons charging your lines is too good to pass :D

Yep, exactly!

And IF for some reason you really need to strike before say Zombies or Dwarf Slayers, your Khorne Marauders can remove their horned helmets and beat the enemy to death with them - at Initiative 4!

Malorian
11-06-2010, 17:15
I see no reason not to. Skaven slaves attack just as well as Clanrats. They just have slightly less armor. Keep them near the general and they're going off a good Ld too. And the best thing about Slaves? If they do run and die, who cares? :p

Even at 2.5 points, a horde unit of slaves cost 100 points and... um... they... um...

Wow, I just changed my mind while doing the math...

At first I was going to say that 100 points is a lot to throw away, but really 100 points isn't all that bad for a throw-away unit, and best yet they might actually do some real damage at these levels.


Then again... they would probably do more damage jusy being two units side by side and doing twice the explosion damage when they blow up...

dude.sweet101@yahoo.co.uk
11-06-2010, 17:35
Looks like units that can block flank charges eg spawn and other unbreakable stuff is going to be king in 8th Ed.
Assuming protracted combats in the centre of the table where both guys have sensibly taken a Bsb then the ability to flank,thus stripping ranks and stubborness will be massive.

Ramius4
11-06-2010, 17:43
Even at 2.5 points, a horde unit of slaves cost 100 points and... um... they... um...

Most people just don't realize, Skaven slaves near the general are just as good as Clanrats for a fraction of the cost

Wow, I just changed my mind while doing the math...

I knew you would;)

At first I was going to say that 100 points is a lot to throw away, but really 100 points isn't all that bad for a throw-away unit, and best yet they might actually do some real damage at these levels.

As I mentioned though, they're just as good now in 7th, all things being relative.

Then again... they would probably do more damage jusy being two units side by side and doing twice the explosion damage when they blow up...

Again, keep them near the general. They'll get the same Stubborn Ld your Clanrats would for a very small points commitment. (assuming Stubborn can use the general's Ld as has been rumored.) And if they happen to fail, well whoop-dee-doo. You lose a whopping 100 points. Of course, it will cost you well over that in real money...:shifty:

Malorian
11-06-2010, 17:45
Of course, it will cost you well over that in real money...:shifty:

Depends on the contents of the new starter set ;)

Ramius4
11-06-2010, 17:52
Depends on the contents of the new starter set ;)

Or if you're my brother. He's already got 10 boxes of old monkey rats built and painted, and 5 more still sitting on his shelf. His Skaven army is awesome, even when you don't buy a horde he's still got everything you could ever want available to use. Fun to play, and just as fun to play against.

harthag12
11-06-2010, 18:39
How's a dwarf unit of Ironbreakers or Hammers do in all this w/ like 30 of them in horde formation do against these other units? Slightly pricey but one of the few elite units not losing attacks going from 2 to 1.

Malorian
11-06-2010, 19:08
Hammerers in horde fairly interesting as they have the great weapons to take advantage of the extra attacks, and yet are also stubborn without needing the ranks.

I had though about putting longbeards into horde formation (I already had 2 unit of 20 with great weapons) but as long as you meet your core requirement then hammerers would be better.

Ironbreakers will be pointless if you ask me. Don't really hit hard, not all the resiliant... if you had a good number of them it would be better to just set them up to have mroe ranks to hope for stubborn.

Mudkip
11-06-2010, 19:14
A unit of 30 Ironbreakers would cost 420 points with command. They would actually win the first round of combat against the (much cheaper) 50 Khorne Marauders, they'd take 8 losses and do 14 back. If the Marauders passed their stubborn leadership check however they would win the second round and eventally wipe out the Ironbreakers.

30 Hammerers vs 50 Khorne Marauders would be mutual bloodbath. The Hammerers would win with 17 kills vs 13 in the first round, but the Hammerers would quickly lose the war of attrition, they might even get wiped out in the secod round of combat.

Amusingly, the 50 Men at Arms would do a pathetic 2 wounds to a unit of 30 Ironbreakers (Empire Halberdiers would only do 3), whereas the Ironbrakers would do 12 back. Even the Orcs would only do 4 wounds and take 10 back. It seems that the Ironbreakers could easily beat weaker troops in a battle of attrition, although their opponents will be stubborn and the Ironbreakers themselves will be somewhat battered by the end of it. What saves the Ironbreakers is their solid all-round attributes, they are WS 5, strength and toughness 4 with a good save so they can't take the punishment and dish it back out. They still aren't much good for the cost in the end though.

Empire Halberdiers would do 6 wounds to Hammerers and take 13 back. The Hammerers would probably win eventually with a handful of models left, but they aren't suited for horde formation because they are too expensive.

Ramius4
11-06-2010, 19:49
@ Malorian. I'm not sure where you get the idea that Iron Breakers aren't resilient... Since when is a 3+ armor save and now a 6+ ward for parry, not resilient?

@ Mudkip. Assuming you used units that are both 30 strong, your math is wrong on the Iron Breakers vs. Marauders. The Iron Breakers only suffer 5 wounds in the first round, while causing 14 wounds to the slower Marauders (31 attacks hitting on 3's, wounding on 3's with no armor save). The Marauders attack back with 27 attacks (hitting on 4's and wounding on 3's, armor saves on 5+ and 6+ ward save), for a grand total of only 5 wounds. Keep in mind the Iron Breakers would go first because of the great weapons and reduce the Marauders attacks back by 14 before attacking in that first round).

This is of course, all assuming I was correct in the unit sizes being equal to start. In this scenario, the Iron Breakers win by a landslide (10), have more ranks (so no stubborn for the Marauders) and they should break them handily.

Mudkip
11-06-2010, 19:54
It's 50 Marauders, who are over 100 points cheaper than the 30 Ironbreakers. 30 Marauders would be nearly 200 points cheaper than the Ironbreakers so you'd certainly hope the Ironbreakers win. I am wrong on the Ironbreaker kills though, I was making them strike last for some reason.

nick_robinsonchia
11-06-2010, 19:54
@ Malorian. I'm not sure where you get the idea that Iron Breakers aren't resilient... Since when is a 3+ armor save and now a 6+ ward for parry, not resilient?

@ Mudkip. Assuming you used units that are both 30 strong, your math is wrong on the Iron Breakers vs. Marauders. The Iron Breakers only suffer 5 wounds in the first round, while causing 14 wounds to the slower Marauders (31 attacks hitting on 3's, wounding on 3's with no armor save). The Marauders attack back with 27 attacks (hitting on 4's and wounding on 3's, armor saves on 5+ and 6+ ward save), for a grand total of only 5 wounds. Keep in mind the Iron Breakers would go first because of the great weapons and reduce the Marauders attacks back by 14 before attacking in that first round).

This is of course, all assuming I was correct in the unit sizes being equal to start. In this scenario, the Iron Breakers win by a landslide (10), have more ranks (so no stubborn for the Marauders) and they should break them handily.

Edit : I didnt realise you were comparing 30 vs 30. Try running the maruaders 50 size and they are still substantially cheaper. Math in progress will update when im done.

If U wanted to compare at even points value the Marauders have 74 models to you're 30.

Round 1: 30 Dwarves 74 Marauders. Dwarves: 13.5(14)kills. Maruaders: 7(.2) Kills. Stubborn but lose frenzy.
Round 2: 23 Dwarves 60 marauders. Dwarves: 10 kills. Marauders:5.42(6) kills.. Still Stubborn
Round 3: 17 Dwarves 50 marauders. Dwarves: 7.8(8) kills. Maruaders :5.42(5) Still Stubborn.
Round 4: 12 Dwarves 42 Marauders. Dwarves: 5.6(6) kills. Marauders :5.42(6) Marauders win combat by 2. Dwarves will be wiped out in 1-2rounds.

Pretty interesting actually. Absolute bloodbath and the marauders have to pass several break tests before they actually put boot too face through attrition. Several things could make a difference. By round 3 its probably a good idea to reform to 5 wide for teh dwarves to reduce incoming attacks and preserve rank bonus.

Honestly thats just a hack fest. Nasty nasty fight the whole way through. Good times.

N

decker_cky
11-06-2010, 20:02
50 Skavenslaves with spears are kind of the perfect thing for fighting the marauder horde. They fight identically to clanrats against marauders (save is negated and WS2 vs 3 doesn't matter) but are considerably cheaper.

Against a lot of opponents, 50 slaves could be a great unit (spears aren't even really necessary). 100 pts flat and they'll throw some decent hits on most units.

Eta
11-06-2010, 20:18
Edit : I didnt realise you were comparing 30 vs 30. Try running the maruaders 50 size and they are still substantially cheaper. Math in progress will update when im done.

Don't forget that the marauders will lose additional 10 attacks after losing the first combat. Bye bye, frenzy! ;)

Greetings
Eta

Malorian
11-06-2010, 20:23
@ Malorian. I'm not sure where you get the idea that Iron Breakers aren't resilient... Since when is a 3+ armor save and now a 6+ ward for parry, not resilient?

They only have one better save than the warriors (so it's a question about being resilient for their points) and they aren't stubborn.

Ramius4
11-06-2010, 20:23
Don't forget that the marauders will lose additional 10 attacks after losing the first combat. Bye bye, frenzy! ;)

Greetings
Eta

As mentioned above, he was running 50 of them in his example (even if the math was wrong).

I gave the 30 vs. 30 example above already. There wouldn't be a second round;) The Iron Breakers annihilate them at 30 vs. 30, winning by 10 with no Stubborn. Bye bye Marauders.

nick_robinsonchia
11-06-2010, 20:33
Don't forget that the marauders will lose additional 10 attacks after losing the first combat. Bye bye, frenzy! ;)

Greetings
Eta

Yup had that in in the numbers above for even points.

@ram Yeah 30 vs 30 is a little rough lol:D

nick_robinsonchia
11-06-2010, 20:36
Thinking about it a little further it might be interesting to see more elite units run at 30 strong in horde formation but once they lose 10 or so models use the reform (ld test) to reform to a regular formation once their killing power has been exhausted in Horde formation, shoring up ranks etc.

Malorian
11-06-2010, 20:40
That's a good idea nick, but I don't think they can reform in combat, and given how the system looks in 8th I doubt they will have a chance before it's too late.

nick_robinsonchia
11-06-2010, 20:46
"Units containing a musician can do a free reform after failing a charge if they pass a Ld test. Units may reform after the combat phase, but cannot have less models in base contact. Units that lost the combat resolution have to make a Ld test in order to reform, and must reform 2nd."

Just pulled that from the rumors Mal. Im not sure how it would work in practice (or even if it will be in 8th lol)- maybe ur right on it being a little to late but interesting options anyhow.

EDIT: Seeing as u cant have less models in contact I guess it might work against you reforming midway through a fight - for dwarves and their smaller bases at least 8 would need to be in the front rank against a 25mm base if fighting previously in horde formation...

Ramius4
11-06-2010, 20:48
Yup had that in in the numbers above for even points.

@ram Yeah 30 vs 30 is a little rough lol:D

As a looooong time Dwarf player, I know what they do well. Stay put. Stubborn on Hammerers is awesome, but more often than not it's the Iron Breakers that are still around at the end of the game.

Mudkip
11-06-2010, 20:52
I think nick is onto something there. If an elite unit could fight one or two rounds in horde formation before reforming that would be very interesting.

nick_robinsonchia
11-06-2010, 21:00
I think nick is onto something there. If an elite unit could fight one or two rounds in horde formation before reforming that would be very interesting.

Yeah trying to maximise casualties to reduce ranks and stubborn... we shall see i guess. Just realise it could bea double edged sowrd tho. say against a 5 wide 25mm frontage unit u would have to have 8 in contact and 7 against a 20mm.

Storak
11-06-2010, 21:37
good topic. great thoughts!

acx
11-06-2010, 22:44
Edit : I didnt realise you were comparing 30 vs 30. Try running the maruaders 50 size and they are still substantially cheaper. Math in progress will update when im done.

If U wanted to compare at even points value the Marauders have 74 models to you're 30.

Round 1: 30 Dwarves 74 Marauders. Dwarves: 13.5(14)kills. Maruaders: 7(.2) Kills. Stubborn but lose frenzy.
Round 2: 23 Dwarves 60 marauders. Dwarves: 10 kills. Marauders:5.42(6) kills.. Still Stubborn
Round 3: 17 Dwarves 50 marauders. Dwarves: 7.8(8) kills. Maruaders :5.42(5) Still Stubborn.
Round 4: 12 Dwarves 42 Marauders. Dwarves: 5.6(6) kills. Marauders :5.42(6) Marauders win combat by 2. Dwarves will be wiped out in 1-2rounds.

Pretty interesting actually. Absolute bloodbath and the marauders have to pass several break tests before they actually put boot too face through attrition. Several things could make a difference. By round 3 its probably a good idea to reform to 5 wide for teh dwarves to reduce incoming attacks and preserve rank bonus.

Honestly thats just a hack fest. Nasty nasty fight the whole way through. Good times.

N

In a fight where the marauders won't win the first round of combat or against WS4 or WS5 opponents it would be beneficial to take the mark of nurgle instead of the mark of khorne. They both cost the same but the mark of nurgle can either significantly reduce the number of casualties and allow you to grind it out or keep boosting your kills in subsequent rounds of combat after you lose frenzy.

30 Ironbreakers vs 74 chaos marauders with mark of nurgle and great weapon:

Round 1: 30 ironbreakers - 30*(.5)*(2/3) = 10 kills, 74 Marauders - 30*(.5)*(2/3)*(2/3)*(5/6) = 5.55 (6) kills, Ironbreaker CR: 10+2(Ranks) = 12, Marauder CR: 6+3(ranks) = 9, Marauders lose by 3 still stubborn
Round 2: 24 ironbreakers - 24*(.5)*(2/3) = 8 kills, 64 Marauders - 30*(.5)*(2/3)*(2/3)*(5/6) = 5.55(5) kills, Ironbreaker CR: 8+2(Ranks) = 10, Marauder CR: 5+3(ranks) = 8, Marauders lose by 8 still stubborn
Round 3: 19 ironbreakers - 19*(.5)*(2/3) = 6.33(6) kills, 56 Marauders - 30*(.5)*(2/3)*(2/3)*(5/6) = 5.55 (5) kills, Ironbreaker CR: 6+0(ranks) = 6, Marauder CR: 5+3(Ranks) = 8 CR, Ironbreakers lose by 2

You have to be careful with the Skaven Slaves. 50 skaven slaves in horde formation will not hold up to 50 marauders of khorne with great weapons. In the first round of combat the slaves will kill 10 marauders while the marauders will kill 22 slaves. Slaves will lose by 12 and be reduced to 3(28 models) ranks while marauders outrank with 4(40 models). Now the slaves are no longer stubborn!

Flinch
11-06-2010, 23:45
Anyone tried the numbers for the bigger models? Like Minotaurs or Trolls?

Sure, a unit of 50 would cost around 2000 points, but MY GOD that is a scary looking unit!

I suspect that they wouldn't perform all that well though.

Mind you, you could be "That Guy" in a tourney if you took a single unit of 50 trolls and the troll king in a 2250 tourney and line em up in a single rank across the whole table... Good for a laugh, but thats about it...

Mudkip
11-06-2010, 23:50
Supposedly Ogre-sized models only need to be 6 wide to benefit from the horde rule. To benefit you'd need a minimum of 18 Ogres, but 50 is just silly.

Eta
12-06-2010, 00:28
Hmm... 24 Chaos Ogres with great weapons, chaos armour, mark of Nurgle and full command - 1280 points :D (that's the price of 72 halberd swinging Khornate warriors). But they would put out a hefty 6*3*3+1= 55 S6 attacks in one combat phase (assuming the rumour is true that ogre sized creatures may hit with their full amount of base attacks) + 6 Crush them attacks at S4. Carnage.

Greetings
Eta

lelandchaska
12-06-2010, 00:35
I'm not a math guy, but I would be interested to see someone run the numbers on a unit of 18 Dragon Ogres with GW against any other horde.

ATT = 42? (Full attacks for first two ranks, one attack for back rank)
STR = 7
WS = 4

Plus the 6 str 5 stomp hits

Granted, the Dragon Ogres will always strike last with their regular attacks and the stomp attacks, but with 4 wounds per model, toughness 4 and a 4+ armor save, no one will take out too many models before attacks back. Can anything stand up to 30 or 40 STR 7 attacks?

(Please ignore the fact that this unit would cost 1386 points)

nick_robinsonchia
12-06-2010, 00:48
Hehehe the big guy hordes are great- I ran the numbers last night on alot of them but they wouldn't ever be practical. From a practicality standpoint I think the only one that could possibly work are 18 OK bulls. Naked would be just fine with standard and musician it comes to 660p. Which is expensive but not THAT expensive. Nice centrepiece for the army too.

N

Grimstonefire
12-06-2010, 01:12
Monstrous infantry and monstrous cavalry can put out up to 3 attacks per model from 2nd/ 3rd etc rankers afaik.

decker_cky
12-06-2010, 01:18
Basic chaos ogres would work well too since they're the same price but start with heavy armour.

Chaos trolls will be a really strong one though. 18 models is over 800 pts, but anyone wanting to deal with them without flaming attacks will be causing a lot of mutant regen rolls. By the end of turn 6, that'll be one nasty unit. Maybe probably take it smaller in 2000 pt games, but that'd be a nice unit in 3000 pts for sure. And if you get charged by knights.....18 vomit hits ftw!

Mudkip
12-06-2010, 01:29
You can fight in two ranks anyway, I don't see the practical need for trolls and ogres to get that extra rank of attacks.

decker_cky
12-06-2010, 01:44
Yeah....but with a unit that big...you have to point all your war machines at it. Unless you're facing dwarfs, dropping the unit down by 6 models would've likely given 9 rolls on the table. There's only 10 results on the table overall, and aside from 7, you get a reroll if they come up again, so with 9 rolls, you should have several of the following: terror causing, S6, A4, T5, MR3, 4+ ward and stubborn, 6+ armour and Ld5. A few are useless, but generally, the end result is a NASTY unit.

Grimstonefire
12-06-2010, 12:19
To be honest I think 3 units of 6 would be better. More targets to shoot at, more stomp attacks. Send a unit out to each objective with some support units. Job done.

horror
12-06-2010, 13:27
Skaven plague Monks in horde formation are throwing out 36 attacks (incl champ) against a normal 5 wide unit. A unit of 50 with command is 375 pts.

Instead, take 35 and throw a furnace in. That's a nice horde unit. Although I'm not sure how many monk attacks you are going to get with the furnace in there too. How would that work out?

_dandaman_
12-06-2010, 22:37
The ogres are looking good with rolling for every individual wound instaed of just the first attack, I'm almost looking forward to my brother bringing his great cannon then!

Djekar
12-06-2010, 23:09
This math is making me regret remodeling my Orc Boyz to have shields.

On the other hand, I do have a lot of marauders who are barely primed... maybe I can catch a ride on this Khorne-train....

Thanks for the math guys!

Mudkip
13-06-2010, 00:27
Shields have their place too, there's actually not much difference in some cases when it comes to combat res. For instance, with 50 orcs vs 50 storm vermin the Orcs win the first round by 2 regardless of whether they additional hand weapons or shields, because they take less losses. They'll stand up to shooting better too.

Zaustus
13-06-2010, 01:31
And remember, this thread is specifically talking about horde units, which favors offensive setups. For Boyz with shields, you'll probably want to go with a 5-wide by lots-deep formation to get the most out of Steadfast. That's actually a pretty effective anvil, with T4 and 5+/6++ armor. Combine that anvil with a killy horde with extra choppaz, and I think you have the intended idiom of this edition.

southpaw
13-06-2010, 04:29
A 50 man Dark Elf Spearmen unit sounds pretty interesting when backed up with a Cauldron of Blood. If they are attacking in 4 rows because of Spears/Horde then that could be 40 killing blow attacks!

Or a 30 man Xbow unit in a LONG 15x2 formation for shooting (60 shots) and 10x3 for combat..... 30 killing blow attacks with the trusty Cauldron.

CauCaSus
13-06-2010, 10:51
Shouldn't it be possible to make a spreadsheet where one could fill out number of attacks, ws, s, t and save of each unit and have the spreadsheet give the number of wounds done to each unit? I'd love to give it a try, but I'm at work right now.

Eta
13-06-2010, 12:07
Shouldn't it be possible to make a spreadsheet where one could fill out number of attacks, ws, s, t and save of each unit and have the spreadsheet give the number of wounds done to each unit? I'd love to give it a try, but I'm at work right now.

There you go, Avian has this calculator for quite some time on his site. You have to fiddle the stats a bit to properly get the horde rule effects.
http://www.avianon.net/calculations/unit_combat.php

Greetings
Eta

Temakador
13-06-2010, 18:57
ok looking through this post (very good by the way) i see that marauders seem top dog with the new horde rule, but what happens when they come up against 20 iron breakers for instance NOT in horde formation would they lose a good chunk of their attacks? since i do not see many elite units going for the horde rule i assume that most horde will fight hard elite units like this i was wondering if anyone could crunch the numbers to see if they could still walk through and cause masses of death and destruction with limited attacks against hard elite units e.g iron breakers if so how would u stop this unit of marauder death? i suppose shoot it but 50 would take time and u would then be ignoring all the other units so what can we do?

Mudkip
13-06-2010, 19:07
The marauders will get 7 guys into BtB contact against 5-wide Ironbreakers, so they'd get 29 attacks (inc. champion) instead of 41. 5 kills from the Marauders with 5 kills back from the Ironbreakers so they'd tie. The Ironbreakers would hold the Marauders in place for a couple of turns but they'd lose eventually.

Little consolation for dwarves, but it seems that there will be more area-of-effect spells in 8th edition that will be useful against hordes. Artillery should be more accurate too.

Glabro
13-06-2010, 19:45
Orc arrers are probably among the best, although Animosity is as bad as ever. But 6 points for horde shooting AND fighting is good.

Marauders with GWs seem to be slaughterers with few equals in the horde department.

And yes, Stormvermin are very good.

Dark Elves don't need to buy shields if they want to go horde. It's an option, not a mandatory thing.

Zaustus
13-06-2010, 20:48
Re: Khorne Marauders vs. non-horde Ironbreakers, I work it out that the IBs strike first, and kill 4.9 Marauders. The KMs only actually get 6 models in combat if the IBs are 5-wide, since the KMs are on bigger bases. They get 25 attacks back, killing 4.6 IBs. That's a drawn combat, though the IBs' ranks are depleted faster than the KMs'. The IBs will do their job of holding up the Marauders of Doom, though, and letting you get Hammerers or Warriors into their flank.

Against 20 Temple Guard using shields, TG strike first with 16 attacks, killing 5.3. KMs get 29 back, killing 5.4. KM probably win this one eventually.

Against 20 Chaos Warriors with HW + shields, the CWs strike first with 16 attacks, killing 7.1 KMs. KMs strike back with 29 attacks, killing 5.4. On average the CWs win the combat, neither side has more ranks so neither side is steadfast, the KMs lose frenzy and have to break test at -2 Ld. However, that result is assuming that the KMs do 5 wounds and not 6. If they do 6, then the CWs lose an additional rank, which means a 2-point swing in combat resolution. In that case, the combat would be a draw and the KMs would keep frenzy and almost surely eventually win the fight. So it's kind of 50-50 in that matchup.

If we give the CWs a mark it can make a difference. Nurgle and Slaanesh, while good for other reasons, do not affect the outcome of this matchup. Let's look at Khorne and Tzeentch then.
20 Khorne Warriors with shields and full command strike first with 21 attacks, killing 9.3 KMs. KMs strike back with 29 attacks, killing 5.4 CW. Due to extra wounds the CWs handily win combat this time, but how many wounds the Marauders actually do is still relevant. If they only do 5, then both sides have the same number of ranks and neither is steadfast, causing a normal break test for the Marauders. If they manage 6 kills, however, they'll have one more rank than the CWs, and get to take their break test on unmodified leadership. Either way, they lose frenzy for the next round.

Let's assume that the new parry ward save is improved by Mark of Tzeentch. 20 Tzeentch CWs, same setup: CWs strike first with 16 attacks, killing 7.1. KMs get 29 attacks back, killing 4.3 CWs. That's a solid win for the Warriors, and the Marauders will very likely have to break test at -2 or -3.

Mudkip
13-06-2010, 21:29
Re: Khorne Marauders vs. non-horde Ironbreakers, I work it out that the IBs strike first, and kill 2.7 Marauders. The KMs only actually get 6 models in combat if the IBs are 5-wide, since the KMs are on bigger bases. They get 25 attacks back, killing 4.6 IBs. The KMs should win the combat, and in a vacuum they'd eventually grind down the IBs.

Looks like you are only having the IB's fight in one rank, they'll fight in 2 ranks in 8th even if they're 5-wide. Though I did forget about the base issue.

Temakador
13-06-2010, 21:33
IB ony causeing around 3 kills? ok im not very accurate with mathhammer but in two ranks 11 attacks (assume champion) 3+ to hit which is around 7 hits? then 3s to kill means 5 kills? if the maths is wrong sorry and i now its not very accurate but ....meh anyway i think it should be more like 5 kills rarther than 3 meaning they draw combat on average if im wrong plz tell me
Allso is there anything that can beat the marauders which is not insansely priced (CW with mark)
just a quick qustion in 8th does anyone know if you both have GW do u go by I value?

Zaustus
13-06-2010, 21:37
Mm, yeah I think I forgot to give them the second rank. Let's fix that. 11 attacks is 4.9 kills, and the KMs still kill 4.6 in return. That's a little better for the IBs, though still pretty close to even. The smaller bases are actually a very big deal for the IBs, when you compare them to the fate of the other hard infantry on bigger bases.

I'll edit my previous post just to provide correct numbers to people looking at it for the first time.

kaintxu
15-06-2010, 21:54
guys, I'm seeing hordes being great and so, but, with weak horde units such as goblinds, marauders, just imagin something that is going to be around: Warmachines, sallamanders. I know its same for everyone, but this guys are T3, a sallamander unit marching and thrwoing you 2 templates is gonna really hurt killing 10 or so at least?

Malorian
15-06-2010, 21:58
No doubt that templates will be the perfect counter for hordes, but then again everything should have a counter.

Only other thing you can do to get around it is take even BIGGER units ;)

kaintxu
15-06-2010, 22:06
hurray, 100 big KM unit, just for almos 600 no that much :p its just that it takes 25" x 25" on the table :D

Mudkip
15-06-2010, 22:13
Yeah, it's no bad thing that horde units will have their weaknesses.

agger
15-06-2010, 22:45
What about Great swords? A lot of empire folks, including me, have been thinking of buffing them up to horde numbers...

Malorian
15-06-2010, 22:47
Yes, horde greatswords will be awesome.

Just don't forget to join a priest for hatred ;)

Mudkip
15-06-2010, 22:48
Nothing that costs 10+ points per model is suitable for horde formation really. You might be able to get away with a unit of 30 that you normally run 5x6, but occasionally reform to 10-wide when the situation calls for it.

agger
15-06-2010, 22:53
Yes, horde greatswords will be awesome.

Just don't forget to join a priest for hatred ;)

But will it be worth it over more knights`? :)

Malorian
15-06-2010, 22:55
A greatsword has a single str5 attack and a 4+ save.

A knight with great weapon has a single str 5 attack (plus horse) and a 2+ save.

However you'll have twice as many GS as you would knights.


The choice is yours.

Your Mum Rang
19-06-2010, 10:01
30 Dark Elf Repeater Crossbows > Khorne Marauders. You won't even make it to me let alone through the S&S!

Mudkip
19-06-2010, 10:08
Well some of them would reach you, but the 30 close combat attacks before they get to strike would all but finish them off.

Your Mum Rang
19-06-2010, 10:19
Well let's roll it out. Assuming one shooting round + S&S + combat...

10 dead from the first volley. 40 left.

14 dead from the stand and shoot.

14 dead in combat.

Oh wait, will those Marauders have a save? If not add 15 more casualties.

nick_robinsonchia
19-06-2010, 16:08
Well let's roll it out. Assuming one shooting round + S&S + combat...

10 dead from the first volley. 40 left.

14 dead from the stand and shoot.

14 dead in combat.

Oh wait, will those Marauders have a save? If not add 15 more casualties.

As far as I know u don't add an extra rank to shooting in horde formation, and ur a RXbow so don't get salvo fire...
10 dead first volley (short range, repeating(4s) 40 shots S3 T3)

6.6 stand and shoot (repeating, stand and shoot(5s)u forgot to roll for wounds...)

combat (30 DE vs 33 Mar)
11.25 wounds for the DE
11.36 wounds for the Marauders.(DE w/shields)
13.7 wounds for the Marauders. (DE without shields)

Draw or win to the marauders by 2-3(if the DE don have sh). Without hatred u will be going down next round. Unless there is a timely DE flanking force arriving.

Obviously it's in a vaccuum but nice comparison. Rxbows are rock solid for their points for damn sure. Seeing as they have LA anyway I really think shields are a good investment for them +Std,mus.

Judging by my own experiences playing trial 8th games I'm looking to bump my marAuders up to 60 strong (just have to find the points...) to make sure they are still combat effective after missilefire/magic and first combat. At 50 strong they tend to wheather it enough to monster 1 unit... But they are burnt out and I reform to 5x3 etc. 60 would allow me to get in another fight methinks.

N

lelandchaska
19-06-2010, 20:51
Judging by my own experiences playing trial 8th games I'm looking to bump my marAuders up to 60 strong (just have to find the points...) to make sure they are still combat effective after missilefire/magic and first combat. At 50 strong they tend to wheather it enough to monster 1 unit... But they are burnt out and I reform to 5x3 etc. 60 would allow me to get in another fight methinks.

N

You're killing me here... I plan on running two different 40 blocks of marauders, one tzeentch and one khorne. I've only got 20 out of 80 painted, and now you're telling me that the math suggests blocks of 50... :(

Zaustus
19-06-2010, 21:45
In horde formation, you want at least 50, and I suspect 60 will end up being better. With less than 50, you won't get your full complement of attacks after your opponent strikes first. You really want 60 because unarmored, T3 models die in droves to shooting, and while movement has been sped up you'll still be eating a turn or two of shooting before getting into combat.

However, I'd only run a horde with Khorne Marauders w/ great weapons. With Tzeentch, I'd go 30 models with LA + shield, run 5 wide x 6 deep. That should make a reasonable anvil unit; add a hero in if you want some killing power.

In fact, that's exactly what I'm planning right now for an 8th edition list. Right now I have penciled in 60 Khorne Marauders w/ great weapons and full command, along with 30 Tzeentch Marauders with LA, shields and full command. I think I'll also take 18 Tzeentch Warriors (joined by a sorcerer lord on horse, and ranked 5x4) with shields, musician, banner, and Standard of Discipline, which is +1 Ld, but can't use characters' leadership. That'll be the core choices of the list, I think. Until I change my mind, at least. :p

lelandchaska
19-06-2010, 23:44
Zaustus - Your reasoning is sound, but I wonder how it will play out in the bigger picture. Imagine this: In a 3000 point list, you can have 40 marauders MoK, 40 marauders MoT, 20 CW with MoK, 20 CW with MoT, a pair of hellcannons, a warshrine, a big ol unit of trolls with Throgg at the helm, and a beefy lord (say Gurlaugh, for the heck of it). Do you really need to plan for your marauders of Khorne taking a couple of rounds of fire before getting across the board with so many other threats?

Really, I just don't feel like converting some of my tzeentch marauders to join my khorne ones, so I'm looking for a reason...

Zaustus
20-06-2010, 01:03
Perhaps not in that list. I haven't played a 3k game in a long time, so I was thinking of more like 2250 where that horde will be one of your biggest threats on the table.

And hey, not messing around with any more models than you have to is always a good argument. :) I paint my Marauders generically (browns and skin tones mostly) and use them with different marks in different games. Now I'm sure glad I do, since I would have had to change them from purple to yellow or something. Partly I want to have the flexibility of running them in different configurations, and partly it's that I find the whole "Paint-by-numbers Chaos" thing to be a bit silly.

I do want to make some yellow Tzeentch warriors though, just so I can have yellow warriors.

_dandaman_
20-06-2010, 01:21
As far as I know u don't add an extra rank to shooting in horde formation, and ur a RXbow so don't get salvo fire...
10 dead first volley (short range, repeating(4s) 40 shots S3 T3)

6.6 stand and shoot (repeating, stand and shoot(5s)u forgot to roll for wounds...)

combat (30 DE vs 33 Mar)
11.25 wounds for the DE
11.36 wounds for the Marauders.(DE w/shields)
13.7 wounds for the Marauders. (DE without shields)

Draw or win to the marauders by 2-3(if the DE don have sh). Without hatred u will be going down next round. Unless there is a timely DE flanking force arriving.

Obviously it's in a vaccuum but nice comparison. Rxbows are rock solid for their points for damn sure. Seeing as they have LA anyway I really think shields are a good investment for them +Std,mus.

Judging by my own experiences playing trial 8th games I'm looking to bump my marAuders up to 60 strong (just have to find the points...) to make sure they are still combat effective after missilefire/magic and first combat. At 50 strong they tend to wheather it enough to monster 1 unit... But they are burnt out and I reform to 5x3 etc. 60 would allow me to get in another fight methinks.

N

you're forgetting that only pistols and thrown weapons can stand and shoot. So the marauders are 39 strong, run with GW and MoK (the best loadout imho) so in CC the marauders do about 15-16 wounds, and win combat by alot. Marauders are going to rock in 8th ed.

Your Mum Rang
20-06-2010, 15:02
Are you sure about that? AFAIK the 'quick to shoot' pistols and thrown weapons can ALWAYS S&S ALL the time. Normal missile weapons can still S&S.

nick_robinsonchia
20-06-2010, 20:46
you're forgetting that only pistols and thrown weapons can stand and shoot. So the marauders are 39 strong, run with GW and MoK (the best loadout imho) so in CC the marauders do about 15-16 wounds, and win combat by alot. Marauders are going to rock in 8th ed.

Was just in store man and checked this out - anyone can stand and shoot - quick to fire weapons like pistols and thrown weapons just do not suffer the -1 Stand and shoot penalty.

N

Skyros
23-06-2010, 18:46
I've still been trying to figure out why GW seems to think the horde rule is beneficial. Yeah, you can get a few more attacks in, but most of the troops that can affordably become a horde don't hit hard enough to care.

The horde rule seems custom made for GW marauders and stormvermin. You need cheap troops that have at least an S4 attack. Lots of S3 attacks don't do much, and hordes of 10+ point models are inefficient.


A 10 wide horde vs your typical 5 wide other block is getting twice as many attacks. (7+7+7 vs 5+5).

A 10 wide horde vs a typical 5 block on 25mm bases gets even more of a benefit.

Malorian
23-06-2010, 20:23
Another thing to remember is that you can reform with a passed leadership test even if you lose.

So a large unit meant to tar pit can start as a horde and when # of ranks starts to be an issue they simply reform to be 5 wide.

Vsurma
23-06-2010, 21:54
Actually I am coming around to the horde for weaker units.

Having an extra rank isn't all that powerful for S3 troops BUT on the other hand your not actually losing anything. You can be in horde formation as long as it helps you and reform into 5 wide when that works for you better.

When the enemy themselves is not in horde formation or any time they are less wide than you its good to be wider.

If you are 5 wide you get 10 attacks, horde formation against 5 wide you get 21 normally. In this case you don't lose anymore models so why not take those extra attacks.

Also whenever your more powerful than your opponents troops you will want more attacks, when your weaker you want to minimise casualties.

Even the humble goblin is starting to look good to me against enemies going 5 wide.

However in actual games combats are rarely 1vs1 especially if the attacker doesn't see it going his way, they will go 2v1, points cost is sort of irrelevent at this point. Even if you would beat the enemy on points, if they charge you, negate stubborn and run you over its the end of combat.

I think it comes down to:
If you will win combat, go wide and win by more
If you will lose combat, go narrow and lose by less...

Of course this makes deciding on the unit size tricky, but things like skaven and ork units are likely to be fairly big either way so they don't really have to make such a large decision.

Rogzor87
23-06-2010, 22:04
Skaven Slaves!!!! Do not underestimate them

Skyros
23-06-2010, 22:22
A 2v1 is favorable only to the non horde units if they can get into a flank.

If you have two 5x5 fighting a 10x5 unit the horde unit is getting 50% more attacks :p

Mudkip
23-06-2010, 23:42
Another thing to remember is that you can reform with a passed leadership test even if you lose.

So a large unit meant to tar pit can start as a horde and when # of ranks starts to be an issue they simply reform to be 5 wide.

I herd you cannot reform to have less models in combat, which would prevent this if true.

yarrickson
24-06-2010, 01:02
Wheres the Love for the Skink Horde? 50 Skinks (if not more), full command, hand weapons shields, kroxigor in the second rank, no pen to stand and shooting. Whats not to like?

And yes I can only imagine what the Khorne Marauders would do to them.....


To return to the initial premise. The humble Man-at-arms. The prayer Icon of Quenelles makes them a lot more survivable. You could have a character pop minto the unit for as turn, turn on the prayer Icon and then leave the next turn. The Blessing rocks.

shortlegs
24-06-2010, 03:42
Wheres the Love for the Skink Horde? 50 Skinks (if not more), full command, hand weapons shields, kroxigor in the second rank, no pen to stand and shooting. Whats not to like?

And yes I can only imagine what the Khorne Marauders would do to them.....


To return to the initial premise. The humble Man-at-arms. The prayer Icon of Quenelles makes them a lot more survivable. You could have a character pop minto the unit for as turn, turn on the prayer Icon and then leave the next turn. The Blessing rocks.
For skinks, T2 is an absolute killer. When you have all other infantry wounding you on 2+ or 3+, they will drop REALLY quickly.

For M@As, WS 2 is the killer. In this edition of infantry blocks, the difference between 1 pip of WS, S or T is HUGE, and the effect is multiplied by the high number of attacks we're going to see. Having everyone else bar goblins and slaves hit you on 3+ instead of 4+ will cause 33.3% more casualties. This is why the 2 best horde units by number crunching are khorne marauders and stormvermin, simply because of the combination of ws4 (hitting many other infantry blocks on 3+), and high strength (wounding on 2+ or 3+).

M@As at 5 points apiece have always been too expensive for those stats.

Don't have the bret book with me, but I thought the Icon only restores blessing to units who lost them? It doesn't grant the blessing to units that never had them originally, no? Maybe I remembered wrongly..

Rogzor87
24-06-2010, 04:35
SKAVEN SLAVES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

they will work wonders! they might not be the all super killy horde unit but they will be the tarpit of death. Once your stuck in combat with them you will be till you die.

And trust me your unit will be the one that dies. Not the slaves. especially since skaven can shoot into the combat. Warpfire throwers + other templates will land on your unit while the slaves just hold you there and since its a template weapon it won't randomize onto the slaves at all.

Zaustus
24-06-2010, 06:16
I herd you cannot reform to have less models in combat, which would prevent this if true.
You almost certainly won't be able to reform down to 5 wide, but you can very likely reform down to <10 wide. It's a viable tactic in the right situation.

Hali
24-06-2010, 13:40
How about DoW duelists? I just started thinking it might be fun to take a big unit of em. They're not super cheap with pistols but no worse than elves, 40 of em would run 360 points and they seem like they would at least be able to hold thier own against most hordes, especially with stand and shoot. I'm not entirely sure how skirmishers work for shooting and rank bonus though. If only the first two ranks can fire instead of the entire unit now that'll bring em down a little and if skirmishers can't get any combat res from extra ranks or cancle steadfast then it might be better to run em 12x3 for the extra shots and attacks and just forget about having any extra to buffer against casualties. One extra plus though is that template weapons and shooting will do far less damage to this unit than other hordes, pretty hard to calculate for mathhammer but it might the tip the scales in real life.

ColShaw
24-06-2010, 14:16
Don't have the bret book with me, but I thought the Icon only restores blessing to units who lost them? It doesn't grant the blessing to units that never had them originally, no? Maybe I remembered wrongly..

No, the Prayer Icon just plain gives the Blessing to a unit. I've used it often to boost a Men-at-Arms regiment and make them almost decent.

PurchasedPig
24-06-2010, 16:12
The Prayer Icon just plain gives the Blessing to a unit. I've used it often to boost a Men-at-Arms regiment and make them almost decent.

Unfortunately it is in the wrong section of Magic Items. There is no way I'll be using an Arcane slot on giving Peasants a Ward Save when I could, instead, take Siler Mirror/Dispel Scroll/Scroll Of Reaction/thing that gives +1 to Lore of life and makes forests very difficult terrain.

If I ever use 5 Damsels then I'll consider it over the staff of auto irresistable but not only is that never going to happen but the staff would still win.

-PurchasedPig-

N810
24-06-2010, 16:20
For skinks, T2 is an absolute killer. When you have all other infantry wounding you on 2+ or 3+, they will drop REALLY quickly.

For M@As, WS 2 is the killer. In this edition of infantry blocks, the difference between 1 pip of WS, S or T is HUGE, and the effect is multiplied by the high number of attacks we're going to see. Having everyone else bar goblins and slaves hit you on 3+ instead of 4+ will cause 33.3% more casualties. This is why the 2 best horde units by number crunching are khorne marauders and stormvermin, simply because of the combination of ws4 (hitting many other infantry blocks on 3+), and high strength (wounding on 2+ or 3+).

M@As at 5 points apiece have always been too expensive for those stats.

Don't have the bret book with me, but I thought the Icon only restores blessing to units who lost them? It doesn't grant the blessing to units that never had them originally, no? Maybe I remembered wrongly..


I don't know...
If you buff up the unit with the spell
that makes their toughness equal to their leadership...
Toughness 6 skinks would make for a great tarpit. :D

yarrickson
24-06-2010, 23:40
I dont know, I kinda thought that the skinks I4, cold blooded and the extra hittiness of 3 or 4 kroxigor in the second rank might help. WS2 and T2 is a killer though. Plus with the skavenpelt banner you can frenzy them? (would mean a skink BSB tho)

And I still think MAA are worth their 5 points. Yeah you get a rubbish stat line, but Light armour shield and polearm plus the peasants duty makes them worth it I think. 4 points seems too cheap anyways.

majorberzerker
26-06-2010, 03:58
I'm gonna take advantage of both with one huge unit of 100 night goblins with spears

Gorak
26-06-2010, 20:50
40 bloodletters with hearld, alittle pricey, around 600pts but it's nasty! even just the 40 bloodletter ws5 str5 int4 and only one attack a peice so you don't lose anything for going hoard!

Mudkip
26-06-2010, 21:01
Well of course something is nasty when it costs 600 pts. All elite infantry are nasty in horde formation. It goes without saying. If a person is prepared to dump 500+ points into a singe block of horde infantry, then most armies can oblige the player with something undoubtably strong. Whether they are wise investments is another matter.

Things start to get interesting when we come across cheaper hordes can beat other hordes that cost twice as much (Marauders), or hold more expensive units in place forever (100 skaven slaves at leadership 10 for 200 pts), or just have good overall stats without breaking the bank (stormvermin with buffs, saving points by sticking a screaming bell in the unit).

Zangor
28-06-2010, 12:54
slightly off topic and sorry if the issue has already been addressed. But to me it seems a bit risky to field extremely large and expensive units, when certain spells can whipe out the entire unit. Wouldnt this be something to take into consideration before fielding units 50 or 60 man strong?

Just a thought

Vsurma
28-06-2010, 13:17
Yes, No and it depends :)

Yes certain spells will nullify the unit, say cage of flame, the unit is now stuck in place.

Or the damage dealing spells, like the life lores Strength test or death spell. Will kill about half of any horde unit!

So yea it hurts, in the case of slaves, gobs marauders, you might not care if half of your 250pt unit dies

the more expensive they are the more they dislike those spells that effect a whole unit.

Most lores have some kind of hex, minus to S or T etc. those will hurt them badly.
Also if a lore of death mage snipes the enemy general and bsb, well then those hordes had better not lose a single round of combat.

Horde = strong vs other infantry/knights etc...
Horde = weak vs hex's, whole unit damaging spells, panic checks when not in range of general/bsb.

Lungboy
28-06-2010, 13:25
I'm liking the sound of a horde of Marauders with great weapons, the MoN and a Banner of Rage. Possibly throw Wulfrik in for added fun.

Zangor
28-06-2010, 13:30
I'm liking the sound of a horde of Marauders with great weapons, the MoN and a Banner of Rage.

I was thinking the same thing. They would not lose frenzy and be more resilient.

Morthak
28-06-2010, 13:44
The problem is, they can't take magic banners. And adding a BSB might not be worth it, as it needs some protection in this era of massed attacks.
I've never been impressed by marauders, but I might try such a horde unit next edition.

Morthak

BattleofLund
29-06-2010, 15:44
From what the July WD says I get the impression that a Khorne Marauder Horde at most will get 21 greatweapon (Str5) attacks and 20 supporting (Str3) attacks.

Not that this is bad really, not just as supremely awesome as it seemed with all-Str5. Anyone read the actual rule carefully?

Mudkip
29-06-2010, 17:26
What did the July WD say, for those of us who don't read it?

BattleofLund
30-06-2010, 13:49
What did the July WD say, for those of us who don't read it?

Under 'Call to arms', p44:
So long as models in the front rank can fight, so too can models in the rank behind, making a wide unit doubly punchy.
Of course, if you want both a wide and deep unit, take a horde. Hordes are units that are ten models wide (or six if they're monstrous infantry), and because of the sheer mass of troops allow the third rank to make supporting attacks as well as the second.

'Supporting'. I was under the impression that 'supporting' attacks were capped at one per model (thus not benefitting 2+ Attack models as much) and at a model's basic strength?

Zaustus
30-06-2010, 14:49
The second rank guys (i.e. anyone not in base contact) are also making supporting attacks. I don't have the book yet so I can't confirm this, but my understanding is that supporting attacks are 1 per model, but they do receive the benefit of their weapons (e.g. +2 str for great weapons). For monstrous infantry I think it's 3 attacks per model.

cptcosmic
30-06-2010, 14:54
in my opinion best horde units are
Marauders
Skavenslaves
Stormvermin

lachlin
30-06-2010, 15:55
The second rank guys (i.e. anyone not in base contact) are also making supporting attacks. I don't have the book yet so I can't confirm this, but my understanding is that supporting attacks are 1 per model, but they do receive the benefit of their weapons (e.g. +2 str for great weapons). For monstrous infantry I think it's 3 attacks per model.

Monsterous infantry are 3 attacks per model, so Trolls ranked up 3 wide, 2 deep get 18 attacks and the 3 on the front rank get one stomp attack each at the end of combat.

TheDarkDaff
02-07-2010, 15:33
Just going back to the Dark Elf Crossbowmen idea for taking out the Marauders. If you used 30 of them you would be silly not to put them 15 wide to amke the most of the 60 shots a turn that unit could put out (i know Hordes only have to be 10 wide but shooting units are always wider). This unit should knock off 15 Marauders a turn then 10 more on the S&S reaction which should knock them off before combat (assuming 2 rounds of shooting) and as Marauders are on 25mm bases to the Dark Elf 20mm all the Dark Elves will be in combat for a further 11.25 wounds.

If they get a single round of shooting plus S & S and combat then the marauders will loose 36.25 wounds before they get to attack which leaves about 14 from the original 50. Not bad from a 300 point investment.

N810
02-07-2010, 16:19
On the extremely cheap side...
has any one considered Gnoblar hordes..?
sure they will die in droves, but 100pts buys you
50 of the little suckers. those should hold long enouh
untill you get the ogres get to your flanks.

Rogzor87
02-07-2010, 16:24
thats the exact same strat i have for my Skavenslaves in a sense.... 100pnts gets 50 slaves.... then you just stall with the slaves till you can start templating into the combat since you can shoot into combat because of the slaves Special rule... and templates don't randomize so its just your opponent getting killed then.

ColShaw
02-07-2010, 17:46
That's alright as far as it goes, but a horde of 50 Slaves isn't actually going to hold in combat very long. They'll lose Steadfast against any halfway-deep infantry formation very quickly (quite possibly on the first round), and then they're sunk against anything bigger than a Goblin. It could work, and it's certainly not a big gamble (100 points, after all...), but a lot of units will roll right over them.

shartmatau
02-07-2010, 18:24
luckily slaves just explode on them in a shower of cheapness

CmdrLaw
02-07-2010, 23:18
As most talk has been horde on hoard and how that stands up, but i'm considering how many attacks would a horde get against a smaller 5 accross unit and whether alot of points would be wasted if they had X amount of attacks that couldn't be brought to bear.

fubukii
03-07-2010, 18:38
thats why you must ensure you use cheap troops so its not a waste of points,

Maurader with gw are what 6pts each?

280 pts for 50 mauraders with GW full cmd and MOS. I wouldnt give them shields or LA, most tings you wont get get a great save against anyway might as well keep them cheap.

Slaves i wouldnt horde i dont think id prefer them to stay stubborn

Storm vermin with the armor piercing banner are just awesome :P
Stor

Casshole
03-07-2010, 22:23
Skaven slaves are good for the horde as you can reform to keep up the stubborness. Just the fact that are so cheap, do more damage when they break, and the awesomeness of templating them make them super good.

Ive played 3 games of 8th and my horde of skavenslaves owned everythign that was not sufficiently big to take them down.

Agree with Rogzor totally, sure they take losses but im also able to cannon, wft, scorch and plaguclaw (etc) into the combat.

When they are about to break give them the ranks and they will explode harder.

Plus who cant love the image of an insane skaven general setting his own troops on fire!!

Lord Dan
03-07-2010, 23:09
Why were you using halberds with the men@arms in your first test? I think spears would be a far better option, as it allows them to fight in a 4th rank and gives them a +1 to their armor save.

Mudkip
03-07-2010, 23:24
I explained that I chose the more offensive option in all cases. It hardly makes any difference anyway, I ran the numbers for spear and halberd M@A vs a variety of things and they perform to within one point of combat res of each other in almost all cases (when fighting 5-wide anyway).

Lord Dan
04-07-2010, 17:00
I understand that you were going for offensive builds, but that's simply not what M@A are designed for. It's like taking Khorne marauders with flails and shields and comparing them against other infantry while equipping them with their HW and shield. It's just not what they do best.

I'd like to see the numbers for M@A with spears. I find it hard to believe that 29 S3 attacks with a 5+ armor save is going to be equally effective as 22 S4 attacks with a 6+ save. The point is with WS2 they're not hitting anything anyway, so you might as well throw more attacks at them and give them some more armor.

lord opium
04-07-2010, 19:38
Gnoblars have sharpe stuff too dont forget (sorry if it has already been mentioned)

decker_cky
04-07-2010, 19:47
I'd like to see the numbers for M@A with spears. I find it hard to believe that 29 S3 attacks with a 5+ armor save is going to be equally effective as 22 S4 attacks with a 6+ save. The point is with WS2 they're not hitting anything anyway, so you might as well throw more attacks at them and give them some more armor.

You hit most everything on a 4+ regardless.

Halberds against WS4 or less, T3, 5+ save cause 6.11 wounds. Spears cause 4.83 wounds. Depending on damage coming in, the spears will perform about equally or slightly worse, but won't lose as many models.

Something to consider with a horde: You should only use horde if it will mean you win a combat, or if you would already win and it increases that gap. If you're fighting something that's likely to win against you, reform your unit to maximize steadfast before combat (easily done by keeping large units on 25 man bases ;)).

Lord Dan
04-07-2010, 20:18
Depending on damage coming in, the spears will perform about equally or slightly worse, but won't lose as many models.

That's all I wanted to know, with the highlighted portion being most interesting.

Mudkip
04-07-2010, 20:30
You don't go horde to conserve models though. Horde formations are about getting extra attacks and probably sacrificing Steadfast whilst you're at it, so it's an innately offensive option. If you're worried about survivability stick to 5-wide, nobody is forcing you to go horde! Anyway, the difference between spears and halberds is like the difference between Empire state troops, there's a difference but it's pretty small and doesn't affect much in the end.

Naestran
07-07-2010, 22:12
The whole time I have been reading this thread the only thing I can think of is Sallies, I know this has been said already but these are the perfect counter, most units cannot stand up to 50 GW marauders, but even if the charge on turn two there won't be many left with 6 sallies shooting at them. Other counters exist such as mass low strength shooting, skink skirmishers, most archers, Xbow men etc. The real thing I think we should be worried about is either Ogre or troll hordes, they will take a lot of shooting and then hit really hard when they charge, these units typically have a high movement aswell, cannons and Bolt throwers will hurt them along with skinks but one of these units could seriously ruin your day if you don't have these options.

Malorian
07-07-2010, 22:15
You don't go horde to conserve models though. Horde formations are about getting extra attacks and probably sacrificing Steadfast whilst you're at it, so it's an innately offensive option. If you're worried about survivability stick to 5-wide, nobody is forcing you to go horde!

Some times the best defense is a good offense...