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sSammer
13-06-2010, 06:20
My personal favorites are White Lions, but what does everyone else think?

Are swordmasters or pheonix guard better options, how will 8th ed effect them all?

phoenixguard09
13-06-2010, 06:21
I love the Phoenix Guard because they fit my defensive playing style.

4+ Armour Saves and Immune to Psych FTW!

Templar47
13-06-2010, 07:05
Well, I think that each elite unit will be affected in some ways, but not as much as other armies. This is how I rank them to my favorites:

*White Lions: These guys will still be the middle of the road elite units of the HE army. They will still have a good defense against shooting units, and will still be effective in combat due to the fact they will be striking at S6, and with their ASF canceling out the ASL rule in 8th edition, they will still be striking in initiative order and compared to most armies, they will strike first in CC. These guys come in 2nd for my favorite HE elite choice.

*Phoenix Guard: The defensive elite unit, these guys will still be effective in the 8th edition in my opinion. The constant 4+ ward will be huge in my opinion due to the fact that shooting in general has gotten so much better, so they can take fire from war-machines and can still escape unscratched. Though they only have S4, these guys are still a good unit and can cause fear, which could play a huge part in CC for these guys. Overall, these guys are a really good defensive unit and they are probably the best looking models in the game, these guys definitely take 1st as my favorite.

Sword Masters: These guys are the assaulting elite unit of the HE's, but if you so much as sneeze in there general direction (literally), they still will die in droves. Again, their ASF rule will cancel out the warhammer 8th edition GW rules, so they will be striking first most of the time against most armies with a bunch of attacks thanks to there high initiative, but they will still have a pathetic defense. Overall, they are a nasty unit in combat but they die to easily and I just don't see the point of spending a ton of points on a unit that could be wiped out by Bretonnia M@A's (seen it first hand), plus there models dont look that great, so these guys take 3rd as my favorite elite choice.

Desert Rain
13-06-2010, 10:54
Currently my favourites are Swordmasters and they have always been my faves. Both White Lions and Phoenix Guards are nice, but I have almost never used the PGs since they don't really fit in with the rest of my army. That might change in 8th though, if they get the new plastics that I've heard about.

Tae
13-06-2010, 11:22
I love the Phoenix Guard because they fit my defensive playing style.

4+ Armour Saves and Immune to Psych FTW!

Indeed. Unfortunately it's actually a 5+ AS, it's a 4+WS.

And they are not ITP, they only cause Fear. So will still run from Terrors (from combat, as it counts as fear) and can still panic.

ghostline
13-06-2010, 15:58
Lothern Sea guard all the way.

theorox
13-06-2010, 16:56
Hmm...I have to go with Blackorcs here. :D

Theo

Argent
13-06-2010, 20:52
Hard choice, for sure. I love my White Lions, but they have this horrible penchant for rolling terribly for panic tests (a Hellcannon made them run off the board once. It was a sad day). I do love my Swordmasters though; 14 WS6 S5 attacks never gets boring for me!

However, I'm going to have to pick the Lion Chariot as my favorite Special choice. Its one of those units that, in my opinion, really defines the High Elves as an army. As a general rule of thumb, I think the High Elves suffer greatly in uniqueness because of the Always Strikes First rule (we don't have many units with interesting powers or special rules other then "slice them before they can slice you), and the Lion Chariot is one of those rare units.

The first time I used it on one of my pals, he let it get a charge off against some Empire infantry block. The dialogue went something like this.

ME: Okay, so that's three S5 impact hits. **fumbles dice** Okay, two wounds.
HIM: Eh, I'm okay.
ME: Alright, time for the crew. Two crew men with one S5 attack each. **fumbles dice** Okay, that's another wound.
HIM: Ouch. Anything else?
ME: Yeah, two lions. Two attacks each, WS5, S5.
HIM: Wait, your LIONS have WS5, S5? They're BETTER then the crew?
ME: Pretty much. **fumbles dice** Okay, that's another three wounds.
HIM: Ow, okay. You you did six wounds, so no attacks back. You got me in the flank, so no rank bonuses. I outnumber you and have a banner, so you win by five.
ME: Not that it really matters since you need double 1s anyway, but you loose to a Fear-causing enemy.
HIM: $***.

ooglatjama
13-06-2010, 21:00
Hard choice, for sure. I love my White Lions, but they have this horrible penchant for rolling terribly for panic tests (a Hellcannon made them run off the board once. It was a sad day). I do love my Swordmasters though; 14 WS6 S5 attacks never gets boring for me!

However, I'm going to have to pick the Lion Chariot as my favorite Special choice. Its one of those units that, in my opinion, really defines the High Elves as an army. As a general rule of thumb, I think the High Elves suffer greatly in uniqueness because of the Always Strikes First rule (we don't have many units with interesting powers or special rules other then "slice them before they can slice you), and the Lion Chariot is one of those rare units.

The first time I used it on one of my pals, he let it get a charge off against some Empire infantry block. The dialogue went something like this.

ME: Okay, so that's three S5 impact hits. **fumbles dice** Okay, two wounds.
HIM: Eh, I'm okay.
ME: Alright, time for the crew. Two crew men with one S5 attack each. **fumbles dice** Okay, that's another wound.
HIM: Ouch. Anything else?
ME: Yeah, two lions. Two attacks each, WS5, S5.
HIM: Wait, your LIONS have WS5, S5? They're BETTER then the crew?
ME: Pretty much. **fumbles dice** Okay, that's another three wounds.
HIM: Ow, okay. You you did six wounds, so no attacks back. You got me in the flank, so no rank bonuses. I outnumber you and have a banner, so you win by five.
ME: Not that it really matters since you need double 1s anyway, but you loose to a Fear-causing enemy.
HIM: $***.


I think you misread the rules for autobreaking.

bernh
13-06-2010, 21:01
ME: Okay, so that's three S5 impact hits. **fumbles dice** Okay, two wounds.
HIM: Eh, I'm okay.
ME: Alright, time for the crew. Two crew men with one S5 attack each. **fumbles dice** Okay, that's another wound.
HIM: Ouch. Anything else?
ME: Yeah, two lions. Two attacks each, WS5, S5.
HIM: Wait, your LIONS have WS5, S5? They're BETTER then the crew?
ME: Pretty much. **fumbles dice** Okay, that's another three wounds.
HIM: Ow, okay. You you did six wounds, so no attacks back. You got me in the flank, so no rank bonuses. I outnumber you and have a banner, so you win by five.
ME: Not that it really matters since you need double 1s anyway, but you loose to a Fear-causing enemy.
HIM: $***.

Dirty cheater :)
Lion chariot US4 only. It don't negate rank bonuses and autobreaks only 3-men unit.

Kalandros
13-06-2010, 21:28
Thats the problem with this game. So many people go with rules they learn from others and never bother actually doing some READING.

Then they post on forums with their glorious cheats.

Our group, little by little, corrected everything we did wrong - mainly due to 6th edition rules staying in our heads - by reading the rules properly.

Cognitave
13-06-2010, 21:28
White Lions are awesome, and I love their fluff. People tend to favor swordmasters for their killy potential though.

Kalandros
13-06-2010, 21:30
White Lions are awesome, and I love their fluff. People tend to favor swordmasters for their killy potential though.

I'd say the real problem is how... flavorless, the entire high elf book has become.
Dark elves have Sea Dragon Cloaks amongst other things, White lions cloak don't really do much at all and only against non magical shooting, what gives? SDCs work against all types of attacks, ranged and melee.

Sigh.

Thats what pushed me away from high elves, even though I still love the fluff immensely.

BeatTheBeat
13-06-2010, 21:37
Thats what pushed me away from high elves, even though I still love the fluff immensely.

Ah, right, so what made High Elves lose their uniqueness for you was that they didn't have same equipment as the Dark Elves? Weird... :shifty:

On a serious note, I think HE would have been better off without ASF, just like most people seem to think. HE to me should have been a cross between the inter-unit dependancy of Empire (to represent the highly trained soldiery better than just making them INCREDIBLY FAST!!!1!!1!!), great magic buffs and defensive spells, better-than-average combat skills and to counter all this they should be incredibly fragile and expensive.

Just my 257-255 cents,
BTB

Shield of Freedom
13-06-2010, 21:42
I'd say the real problem is how... flavorless, the entire high elf book has become.
Dark elves have Sea Dragon Cloaks amongst other things, White lions cloak don't really do much at all and only against non magical shooting, what gives? SDCs work against all types of attacks, ranged and melee.

Sigh.

Thats what pushed me away from high elves, even though I still love the fluff immensely.


The Sea Dragon Cloak is also wrapped around a unique troop type that's wearing light armor, and has two hand weapons OR a hand crossbow and handweapon. The White Lion Cloak is wrapped around a model with HEAVY ARMOR, and a S6 Great Weapon.

Tae
13-06-2010, 21:57
The Sea Dragon Cloak is also wrapped around a unique troop type that's wearing light armor, and has two hand weapons OR a hand crossbow and handweapon. The White Lion Cloak is wrapped around a model with HEAVY ARMOR, and a S6 Great Weapon.

It can also be given to characters.

King_Pash
13-06-2010, 23:37
It can also be given to characters.

Erm, apart from Korhil (who gets it as he is the CAPTAIN of the White Lions and a special character) you really can't..

Kalandros
13-06-2010, 23:48
He was referring to SDC being given to characters, pushing them to 1+ and 0+ armor save (Enchanted shield).
We used to be able to give it with the Honor system in 6th ed Army book.
Now its just completely gone.

And what I meant isn't that we need a full mirror between DE and HE, its that Dark Elves have a whole lot more flavour stuff and usefulness.

Shadow Warriors unable to have two hand weapons? What?
CoChariot costing 100 pts and being T5 3+ armor and the crew being extremely elite, and then you have the lion chariot thats fragile and more expensive, and only slightly more powerful (CoC has scythes and hatred).

There's nothing unique about high elves, its all generic and bland.

8th ed changes may be positive, time will tell.

Djekar
14-06-2010, 00:11
On topic, I agree with the sentiment that the PG are going to be the go-to elites of 8th. I feel like you lose effectiveness of the second SM rank (since they only get 1 attack), and the white lions lack the protection that will be necessary due to an increase in shooting power. Plus, the PG have I6, which lets them reroll attacks against almost anything, including many characters.

StormCrow
14-06-2010, 00:19
I personally favour the white lions; cant go past the stubborn and ASF S6 personally. And their move through woods can't be overlooked either.

But from my experience playing against high elves I'd have to say Phoenix Guard. That 4+ ward save has screwed me and my friends over more times than i care to remember. I once saw them charge into a razordon pack and make 14 out of 18 saves. It's just something you can't account for or do anything about.

Tarliyn
14-06-2010, 01:24
Right now I love swordmasters. Their fluff is awesome, the models are solid, and their rules are cool (though I do miss the -1 to hit modifier for shooting, i thought that was cool and fluffy). While Lion chariots are pretty sweet too though.

I don't know if I favor any of them come 8th though. They will die in droves to everything due to strike in two ranks and step up.

I was thinking of starting a high elf army for an escalation league coming up at my local store but I may not know. While I don't care about power gaming or waac. I would still like to win sometimes and I like my cool masters of combat swordmasters to actually be able to win a fight every so often.

Sinaris
14-06-2010, 03:03
My rundown of our 3 Elite Infantry Units.

Swordmasters:
IF i manage to get them into a fight, they fit the description and murder everything, though we all know people love to shoot them.

Phoenix Guard: I dont give these guys enough credit, they've probably been my most reliable troops on the ground. I remember a game vs OK, they had Bulls on a flank, that other big ogre that comes in from a table edge to the rear and I cant remember what the name is in the rear. And if i remember correctly more ogres to the front. Korhil was chilling with them, his stubborn was immensely invaluable.
They survived two turns of combat before my Swordmasters came to the rescue and managed to cut down the ogres.

White Lions. My favorite, however I cant remember a game where they have done well for me, yet game after game I field them :(

Trains_Get_Robbed
14-06-2010, 06:02
My S.M have sucked lately for me, had a group of 14 with them rant hem 6 wide F.C hit a unit of Cold One Cav (had elven) killed only 4 of them. . . thats it? 4? with 15 attacks in 2 rounds of combat, thats 30 attacks! They then eventually proceeded to flee due to auto-fear-break.

My favorit unit is W.L moving through terrain is invaluble and seeing others faces as they know they cant go within 8 in of a wood without getting absoultely flanked and destroyed basically makes them number one. Plus their S6 what in the He book is S6? Not much outside bolt throwers, dragons and hero/lord kits.

Sinaris
14-06-2010, 08:52
Trains, only time my lions have been good has been indirect and ONCE they didnt fail their first leadership test "haha! these lions are stubborn let me just roll.....a...five...and a...six".

They did well dying to a man, and they did well fleeing into woods with frenzied beasts hot on their heels - my Lions got away nicely, the beasts got lost in the trees and did nothing the rest of the game XD

King_Pash
14-06-2010, 12:26
I don't know what it is but I just can't get the White Lions to work at an optimum level. Fielding 7-man units means there's not enough attacks, fielding 20-man 5-wide units is too expensive. They don't do enough for my liking and I have NEVER passed their LD8 Stubborn test! Maybe that's just my luck *sigh*.

Still, with 8th Ed rumours on rerolls for ASF & Higher initiative, their damage might just beast up a notch or two. Fingers crossed. :)

phoenixguard09
14-06-2010, 12:33
Indeed. Unfortunately it's actually a 5+ AS, it's a 4+WS.

And they are not ITP, they only cause Fear. So will still run from Terrors (from combat, as it counts as fear) and can still panic.

Oh Crapballs. The Armour Save thing was a typo. Sorry. But I suppose the Immune to Psych thing must have been our house rules messing with my head again.

Desert Rain
14-06-2010, 12:44
I don't know what it is but I just can't get the White Lions to work at an optimum level. Fielding 7-man units means there's not enough attacks, fielding 20-man 5-wide units is too expensive. They don't do enough for my liking and I have NEVER passed their LD8 Stubborn test! Maybe that's just my luck *sigh*.

Still, with 8th Ed rumours on rerolls for ASF & Higher initiative, their damage might just beast up a notch or two. Fingers crossed. :)
I use 14 with a BSB deployed 5 wide. The BSB helps with the extra attacks with his great weapon and more importantly with re-rolls from his standard. The unit standard bearer has the Lion Standard or Standard of Balance.

Arkh
15-06-2010, 20:43
White lions are going to be fielded 10x3 in a unit of 30, no question. Yes it is expensive, but there are very limited things in the game that can handle the amount of pain that White Lions that re-roll hits + attack in three ranks generally striking first can dish out.

I'm also going to field Phoenix Guard in a unit of 30, 10x3.

Swordmasters are pretty much cut... I may field them 6x2 or occasion, but that's about it. The amount of shooting that is going to be on the table in 8th in combination with the fact that you can't hide them anymore makes them dead in the water. Unless Sacred Incense drops to 25 points and as such can be given to the champ.

Oh... and I imagine the Lion Cloak rules are going to be changed for 8th edition by the way. Considering that everybody can move through difficult terrain at full speed in 8th edition.

GreyWolf
15-06-2010, 20:53
My personal favourites are the Shadow Warriors, I just love the idea of them appearing out of the dark and killing the orcs/rats/beasts/darkelves, before melting back into the shadows...

Tae
15-06-2010, 21:06
White lions are going to be fielded 10x3 in a unit of 30, no question. Yes it is expensive, but there are very limited things in the game that can handle the amount of pain that White Lions that re-roll hits + attack in three ranks generally striking first can dish out.

I'm also going to field Phoenix Guard in a unit of 30, 10x3.


Have fun with that, at 480 points a unit (including command). Honestly, people are taking the 10 by X unit far too far. You're never going to find someone to engage the entire frontage of your unit unless they want to, and if they want to that's not going to be good. So most times you're going to get an extra 7 attacks, that's it.

For that price you can have 60 Night goblins. And no, not in one massive unit but as 3 units of 20. Sure, if you hit one of the units it's pretty screwed, but have fun getting through 9 fanatics. 9d6 st5 hits is going to make a mess of any unit - even more so squishy elves in not much armour.

And honestly, a unit 10 wide is hardly going to be manouverable. So just wait for someone to hit you in the flank/rear and then all your lovely extra attacks don't work.

I really do think that this whole "I'm going to run my [insert elite combat unit here] 10 wide" fad is going to be just that, a fad. Within a few weeks of general release people will have seen them all and will know exactly how to counter them. The only thing that will stay in hordes is the stuff that was meant to horde to begin with, cheap, crappy units.

enyoss
15-06-2010, 23:40
I agree with Tae regarding the 10 wide rule. You will probably only get engaged across your whole frontage should your opponent want this to happen, and that will probably be because they are able to bring a frontage of 12 models from two units. Give it one more turn and you'll have no third rank to draw the extra attacks from, but will now be facing 24 attacks to your 12, most likely with them having more ranks than you making them stubborn.

Djekar
16-06-2010, 04:17
I'm still not sold on the whole horde rule in general. Even with crappy infantry, I'm not seeing to point of putting them 10 wide. All the above comments about maneuverability and frontage still hold true, and they don't benefit from the extra WS, S, A, I, what-have-you that the elite units do.

Paraelix
16-06-2010, 04:43
I'm pretty sure Phoenix Guard are gonna be the new favourate. Esp if Swordmasters and Lions don't get the rerolls...

Solar_Eclipse
16-06-2010, 05:20
Give the Phoenix Guard the Banner of Arcane Protection.

2+ ward save against Magic damage FTW