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DrMabutu
14-06-2010, 18:44
I was wondering what other people think the powers and item loadout Vampires will have when 8th edition is released. How will your lists change?

TheRaven
14-06-2010, 18:53
To me the biggest change to vampires is going to be the Core section. Most people utalizea few Ghouls and dire wolves, but now you'll need at least 25% core and in order to take objectives, quarters, units need banners........... making the 2 better Core choices (Ghouls and Wolves) a bit worse and the 2 bad core chioces (Zombies and Skeletons) almost necessary. And with the fear nerf I really think Zombies and Skeletons are going to be painful to be forced to use.

I've been looking over it ALOT and I think we'll see vampire count armies move more towards Wight armies (Grave Guard and Black Knights) because those units are the only ones that can take banners and at the same time NOT Suck. I'm still trying to figure out what to do with my Core, even corpse carts take a huge hit since ASF on undead is really a "Big Fricking Deal" ability. Maybe just 2-3 units with banners will be enough if you can keep them alive and the other units can just kill stuff? IDK it's going to be different..........

All that means that caster Vampires are going to be at a premium. You'll need to keep the few decent objective holding units alive. To me the ideal vampire loadout is now Level 4, knows all lore and skull staff. It's esentially a level 5 in the new rules. I see the +2 power dice thing going by the wayside since it's often an expensive way of wasting power dice. IDK about the bound items, still too early to decide. As far as combat vampires, maybe we'll see alot of flying stalkers? Tough to say, they seem to be a bit worse so we may see the end of Book of Arkhan's reign. I think though that magic will be really important to a VC army, sadly more so than before. One thing that will be used alot thoguh, is Flayed Hughberk, since it was around 50 points in the basic rule book and we get it for only 25!!! Yay us!!

Just wondering, what will other VC players be using to meet the minimum core requirement? Cheers!

Drasanil
14-06-2010, 19:06
55 point Necromancers.

The anti-single-dice-spam mechanic means nothing when you can easily cram four to five of them into a 2000 point game.

Ultimate Life Form
14-06-2010, 19:10
I have always been using big Skeleton blocks and will keep doing so. I really don't know where the hate comes from.

As for items we have a more than decent selection in the book already but I really look forward to complementing it with the odd Ward Save or two (that 4+ Ward armor really caught my eye).

There is no holding table quarters anymore by the way if the newest batch of rumors is to be believed.

DrMabutu
14-06-2010, 19:15
To me the biggest change to vampires is going to be the Core section. Most people utalizea few Ghouls and dire wolves, but now you'll need at least 25% core and in order to take objectives, quarters, units need banners........... making the 2 better Core choices (Ghouls and Wolves) a bit worse and the 2 bad core chioces (Zombies and Skeletons) almost necessary. And with the fear nerf I really think Zombies and Skeletons are going to be painful to be forced to use.

I've been looking over it ALOT and I think we'll see vampire count armies move more towards Wight armies (Grave Guard and Black Knights) because those units are the only ones that can take banners and at the same time NOT Suck. I'm still trying to figure out what to do with my Core, even corpse carts take a huge hit since ASF on undead is really a "Big Fricking Deal" ability. Maybe just 2-3 units with banners will be enough if you can keep them alive and the other units can just kill stuff? IDK it's going to be different..........

All that means that caster Vampires are going to be at a premium. You'll need to keep the few decent objective holding units alive. To me the ideal vampire loadout is now Level 4, knows all lore and skull staff. It's esentially a level 5 in the new rules. I see the +2 power dice thing going by the wayside since it's often an expensive way of wasting power dice. IDK about the bound items, still too early to decide. As far as combat vampires, maybe we'll see alot of flying stalkers? Tough to say, they seem to be a bit worse so we may see the end of Book of Arkhan's reign. I think though that magic will be really important to a VC army, sadly more so than before. One thing that will be used alot thoguh, is Flayed Hughberk, since it was around 50 points in the basic rule book and we get it for only 25!!! Yay us!!

Just wondering, what will other VC players be using to meet the minimum core requirement? Cheers!

Im gonna be taking two 25 man skeleton blocks backed up by a corpsecart and with a wight king in each.

To be honest it will be the first time i have considered taking wight kings, as you don't need several vampire to get the magic anymore.

Also when i see what the new lores will be like i may even consider the forbidden lore power.

LevDaddy
14-06-2010, 19:21
Yeah, why the 8th edition Skellly hate? 2x25 spear skellies with WKs sounds pretty deadly.

Throw in a Screaming Banner BSB, ASF from a Corpse Cart, a WS of 6 or 7 from the Helm and you have a fear causing, unbreakable, regenerating mass of undeath clogging up a huge bulk of the middle of the board with a ton of attacks. Go 10 wide and maybe 3 deep on each and you have something extremely rare and valuable in the world of Warhammer.

Malorian
14-06-2010, 19:27
In 7th I was all for ghouls, but in 8th I give advantage to the skeletons.

The ability to take banners means much more in the missions.

Pacorko
14-06-2010, 19:43
As someone who always have played with lots of skellies, a cadre of necromancers and a couple of vampires, with ghouls corpse and wolves thrown in on ocassion... I just think I will keep doing so.

Really, anyone who plays VCs and keep complaing about "the cap", neds to rethink why he or she is playing the game, and since no one is getting rich by being a "WHFB-pro" that means they should be getting more fun and whining less.

Or don't use 8th edition rules or quit the game, me thinks.

Paraelix
15-06-2010, 01:32
I'm still trying to figure out what to do with my Core, even corpse carts take a huge hit since ASF on undead is really a "Big Fricking Deal" ability.

ASF is still exactly the same as it used to be... It is just if you have higher I, you also get rerolls.

Manager at my local is running a unit of 50 zombies (starting strength) with standard and muso... And I for one am unsure as to how to deal with that unit. You need to kill 20+ models before you even start taking off his attacks... Even Ws2 and S2 is gonna take its toll when he's throwing 30 dice at you... With reroll from magic, possibly striking first due to magic, possibility of using a Vamps Ws through items, etc etc.

Scythe
15-06-2010, 07:44
ASF is still exactly the same as it used to be... It is just if you have higher I, you also get rerolls.


The step up rule migrates its effect against ranked units though.

mrtn
15-06-2010, 11:18
I've been working on a ghoul heavy army (a counts as nurglings army), but now I'm thinking about making some banners and use the nurglings as skeletons instead.

Paraelix
15-06-2010, 12:22
Honestly... I think Ghouls > Skellies under the new rules.

5+ save really does bugger all... Where as Ws3, T3 and I3 can make all the difference. You aren't hit on 3s by most common troops, you strike at the same time or before most common troops, AND most common troops need 5+ to wound you. Furthermore, buckets of extra attacks with poison. I chatted with some store guys today, and it seems the usefulness of banners is being played up.

Scythe
15-06-2010, 12:52
Honestly... I think Ghouls > Skellies under the new rules.

5+ save really does bugger all... Where as Ws3, T3 and I3 can make all the difference. You aren't hit on 3s by most common troops, you strike at the same time or before most common troops, AND most common troops need 5+ to wound you. Furthermore, buckets of extra attacks with poison. I chatted with some store guys today, and it seems the usefulness of banners is being played up.

Well, if banners are required to capture objectives, you can hardly do without them, right? It might also be worth to keep in mind the 'free' reform the musician is rumoured to give. Final note: depending on arrament, skeletons will either get a 6+ ward from parry, or attack in 3 ranks.

Initiative is hardly an issue with step up, and WS plays a role, though not as much as you might expect, as a lot of races have WS4, and the helm equals out differences. The real reason to choose ghouls is of course the poison. With the second rank also attacking (although only once), and step up, you can now throw back at least 15 poisoned attacks to anything that charges you. That's quite risky for any monster.

The Clairvoyant
15-06-2010, 13:44
My list won't change at all.

However, if they don't FAQ the way the black coach absorbs pool dice in 8th, i'll definitely be buying another one!

ChaosVC
15-06-2010, 13:58
I can see the sales of skeletons going up.

Paraelix
15-06-2010, 14:20
Well, if banners are required to capture objectives, you can hardly do without them, right? It might also be worth to keep in mind the 'free' reform the musician is rumoured to give. Final note: depending on arrament, skeletons will either get a 6+ ward from parry, or attack in 3 ranks.

Initiative is hardly an issue with step up, and WS plays a role, though not as much as you might expect, as a lot of races have WS4, and the helm equals out differences. The real reason to choose ghouls is of course the poison. With the second rank also attacking (although only once), and step up, you can now throw back at least 15 poisoned attacks to anything that charges you. That's quite risky for any monster.

Muso allows movement after reform if pass Ld test. And the guys I talked to said nothing of Standards being necessary for capping obj... The only reference to them they'd seen was as bonus VPs.

Fuzzymoldyork
15-06-2010, 14:45
So far all I have heard from this forum is doom and gloom for the VC. But I am not that worried for my beloved Vamps. My army is probably going to undergo a massive change to how it is going to play. Through most of 7th I have gone with a magic heavy force but now Iíll probably take a more combat focused one.

I think DrMabutu has got the right idea on our skeleton blocks. They are going to need a little extra punch and our vampires are going to be too fragile/ expensive to be used frivolously. Wight kings fill this role without being too expensive and making our opponents things twice before going toe-to-toe with one for fear of KB.

Without knowing all the details for the new magic items and the changes to our magic lore, the core of my army is probably going to be 25 man skeleton blocks with Wight Kings maybe, a 50 many unit of zombies (I donít know if it will work but it would look pretty awesome), and a 24 man GG unit with my lord. The rest will probably be filled out with support but this is only a rough draft right now.

I have a feeling that the new VC lord choices will be more jacks of all trades rather than focusing on either magic or combat, but only time will tell. The VC will get a full picture of how they are going to work in the new edition as soon as their errata/faq comes outs.

GL and happy gaming

limekiller
15-06-2010, 14:50
I think that VC are going to be very interesting going forward. How about a unit of 30 Grave Guard run 10-wide (for even more fun, drop 1/2 to fit in a wight king), with great weapons and the Banner of the Barrows?

That's 30 attacks at S6 with killing blow at +1 to hit. Throw in a Lord somewhere nearby with the Helm, and they're going to be hitting on 2s, and at S6, they're wounding pretty much any non-monster/hero on a 2 as well, plus the killing blow. I dunno about anyone else, but 30 attacks needing 2s and 2s, with killing blow potential is pretty damn scary. Now, imagine if you got Van Hel's off on them too, so they were re-rolling all of those attacks? Is there ANY opposing unit that wouldn't just melt?

Hell, 10-wide ghouls is going to be interesting too. That's 40 poisoned attacks a round. Ow. Include a character that can increase them past starting size, and they can even suffer a bunch of losses and still get all 40.

Paraelix
15-06-2010, 15:08
Is there ANY opposing unit that wouldn't just melt?


Uhh... Anything that strikes before you with a similarly crazy number of attacks?

Or maybe just hit the unit with a few spells that hit every model in the unit? Or land a few templates on them?

hacksaaw
15-06-2010, 15:38
so every model in the unit will be allowed its attacks even if it attacks a 5 wide but deep unit? not just the 7 in contact and the row behind?

Paraelix
15-06-2010, 15:42
so every model in the unit will be allowed its attacks even if it attacks a 5 wide but deep unit? not just the 7 in contact and the row behind?

You need to be a bit clearer with your questions...

Contact is still the same. For hordes, people are talking potential attacks.

If my 10 wide zombies hit your 5 wide swordsman, I will get 7 in contact, and the 2 ranks behind them get to fight... =21 attacks.

madden
15-06-2010, 15:44
Seen book today and there is no mention of percentages in the rules set up sections.

Paraelix
15-06-2010, 15:46
Then you didn't look hard enough.

EDIT- I checked up on all this stuff about Standards relevant to scenarios... and...

4 Is probably my favourite. Each army is broken down into break points. one for each PART 1000 points played.

So 0-1000pts is 1, 1001 to 2000 is 2 etc
If you hit your break point the WHOLE ARMY flees.
The general is worth 2 points and every standard is worth 1 point.

So assuming you're playing a 2000pts game and you have 3 standards & a general.

Your generals unit flees combat (with the standard) and get's cut down.
You now have 2 break points... you're whole army flees.
I see your point... But still... You're likely to have a general (duh), GG, maybe BKs, and just throw a standard in a f-off giant unit of zombies. Problem solved.