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Atropos
15-06-2010, 13:02
I know it's soon to tell... But this thread is about guessing which armies will be the new cheese, which will be mid-tier and which will remain in the bottom tier.

My guess is that DoC, DE and VC will drop a little (maybe VC a bit more), while armies like OnG or Skaven will jump into the top tier.
WoC will be stronger with the benefits their infantry will regain.

We'll have to see... but what do you guys think?

NecronBob
15-06-2010, 13:06
I wouldn't dare to try to rank everything, but I'm guessing Dark Elves move to the top. They have a lot of tricks that will serve them well, and it seems like Demons and VC are slipping back a notch.

I think goblins move up some, but they'll still be goblins.

I can't imagine the new cavalry rules or the ward save on shields will do anything to help Brets, so I predict that they move back a step or two. The movement rules seem to hurt Wood Elves, so I guess they'll move back as well.

shelfunit.
15-06-2010, 13:08
I can see DE getting the top spot, with woodies the new whipping boys, everyone else will be grouped fairly evenly around the middle of these.

EDIT: Wonderfully Ninja'd, at least I came up with similar conclusions...

bernh
15-06-2010, 13:58
woodies the new whipping boys

I read some rumors. Magic items, for example. I think, woodies will be ok. With new items they able to field S7 characters now. And even S10. By using lore of life even more. Highborn can kill Blodthirster in challenge or cause 4-5 wounds to stank in 1 round of combat.
20-elf (or 2 10-elf) unit of Glade Guard will shoot RBTs and cannons to death in 1 turn...
2x3 Treekin unit will unleash 18 + 3 stomp S5 attacks.

ChaosVC
15-06-2010, 14:00
Tier 0 for Dice of Chaos.

etancross
15-06-2010, 14:05
I can see DE getting the top spot, with woodies the new whipping boys, everyone else will be grouped fairly evenly around the middle of these.

EDIT: Wonderfully Ninja'd, at least I came up with similar conclusions...

As a Dark Elf player im not exactly sure how you are getting this? Some of the rumors hit us just as hard as everybody else…. I would think WoC, or Beastmen would get the bigger boosts. They’ll be moving faster, charging further with troops that can rip you in half, and with the str7 instakill gone, those core chariots for BoC are gonna be all over the place!

papabearshane
15-06-2010, 14:07
Im a firm believer that Empire and O&Gs will dominate but thats just my warped opinion.........

redyellowpinkgreen
15-06-2010, 14:07
i dont think vcs will drop that bad, yes character cap and magic changes will hamper them i think the infantry buffs will make up for it, its one thing to summon a new unit of skellys to the battlefield to distract or divert your opponant, now imagine that unit is acctually good!

hacksaaw
15-06-2010, 14:08
VC, will get hammered. They were allready going down as people learned how to play against them. from reports and rumors of the changes against good opponents they may become close to an autolose army as you can get. for the first time since i started playing this game nearly 20 years ago, i may have to shelve them for any sort of competitive game against anything but newbies.

Demons will barely budge from what i can tell.

DE well, DE are the cream of the current crop. there is no reason to think they they are going to be weakened especially with initiative becoming important.

tomb kings are interesting, they may get a boost.

Covalent
15-06-2010, 14:10
Armies that already have an 8th codex (Lizardmen, BoC, Skaven, other I might forget) will have an advantage as their rules are already made to fit the new edition.

Paraelix
15-06-2010, 14:18
Throne of Skulls will likely eliminate Tier systems... Cos they're stupid... So don't worry about it.

WarmbloodedLizard
15-06-2010, 14:32
Armies that already have an 8th codex (Lizardmen, BoC, Skaven, other I might forget) will have an advantage as their rules are already made to fit the new edition.

Lizardmen? how so?

Bac5665
15-06-2010, 15:43
Armies that already have an 8th codex (Lizardmen, BoC, Skaven, other I might forget) will have an advantage as their rules are already made to fit the new edition.

No one has an 8E codex. Even Beasts and Skaven will need FAQing to make sense with 8E and the racial lores are gibberish in 8E.

sorberec
15-06-2010, 16:09
i dont think vcs will drop that bad, yes character cap and magic changes will hamper them

How are they hampered by being able to take 500 pts of lord and 500pts of heroes in a 2000 pts game?

Sadesuteku
15-06-2010, 16:29
Can't we just wait till we've read the book before we make assumptions and conclusions?

theorox
15-06-2010, 16:29
Orcs and Gobbos go up, like all infantrybased armies. Skaven might be the new cheese, they have everything except cav, and cav get's less inportant anyway, though still useful. Ouch, My Dwarfs will get a bit of a boost too, shooting through forests...WHY WOULD GW DO SUCH A THING?!

And ogres, i think they get better. I look forward to play many interesting games against them and many other armies.

Theo

theorox
15-06-2010, 16:30
Can't we just wait till we've read the book before we make assumptions and conclusions?

Noooo! What's the fun in that?! :D

Stumpy
15-06-2010, 16:32
I would have thought skaven would be the ones to go directly to tier 1. They're almost there anyway (I'd put them there, others think they're tier 2) and they are a) the best infantry army and b) the infantry-killer army. They massacre enemy infantry like no other army does.

Tae
15-06-2010, 16:42
Can't we just wait till we've read the book before we make assumptions and conclusions?

Some of us already have :p

Ultimate Life Form
15-06-2010, 16:45
O&G have an in-built safeguard called animosity that will prevent them from ever jumping to top tier.

In addition we have messed up point costs sourtesy of Matt Ward. How can an army be top tier that's 30% overcosted? If this book ever rises to the top I earnestly fear for the future of the game.

willowdark
15-06-2010, 16:49
Not just the book, but the Errata. I just don't see how you can speculate when you don't even no what your army will look like.

ChaosVC
15-06-2010, 16:56
No one has an 8E codex...

8th ed codex!!! Blasphemy!!! You shall be burned alive for that Herectic!!!

Walgis
15-06-2010, 17:03
i love hte new lores for my slann to cast :) so im seeing lizardmen staying in tier 2 or rise abit. but to be sure we have to see erretas, becouse alot of things are fogy...

Lord Of The Night
15-06-2010, 17:07
I think Dwarfs will be up there as an army that is all infantry, Cheap character's, and warmachines is gonna get a big boost.

Malorian
15-06-2010, 17:19
Not just the book, but the Errata. I just don't see how you can speculate when you don't even no what your army will look like.

Exactly. People should hold their horses until the erratas are out and we know ALL of the 8th ed rules.

Tarliyn
15-06-2010, 17:21
Warriors of Chaos, Daemons, and Dark Elves will be the the strongest armies now.

Dwarfs will be up there due to their staying power, but their lack of anything that can really do a lot of dmg will keep them down.

Skaven will be up there too.

O&G, TKs, and OK will still remain pretty bad and they will be joined by wood elves most likely.

Most armies will still remain in the middle, though which armies have advantages where are shaken up. High Elves and Brets got a nerf. Empire isn't getting any better, yeah they have stronger infantry but so does everyone else and with all the extra attacks flying around and the nerf to cr, they aren't going anywhere.

Beasts got a buff, too early to tell exactly where they are. Lizardmen were hit but still too early to see exactly where they are as well. I would also wager VC got brought down to the middle.

Now of course take that all with a grain of salt. We don't know what the new army book rules be, nor do we know what people will come up with as we all get used to the new rules. I am just guessing that this is what the landscape will look like for the next few months based off what we do know.

Malorian
15-06-2010, 17:23
Dwarfs will be up there due to their staying power, but their lack of anything that can really do a lot of dmg will keep them down.


You are mistaken, Dwarfs have more units that have access to great weapons than any other, and with the change to the parry bonus and the second rank attacking you should expect to see a lot more warriors/longbeards/quarrellers/rangers/hammerers/slayers with great weapons.

N810
15-06-2010, 17:26
I suspect Vamps and Deamons will go down a few notches...
and Ogres going up a few...

Hard to say about the rest...

Tarliyn
15-06-2010, 17:29
You are mistaken, Dwarfs have more units that have access to great weapons than any other, and with the change to the parry bonus and the second rank attacking you should expect to see a lot more warriors/longbeards/quarrellers/rangers/hammerers/slayers with great weapons.

fair enough, I just started my dwarf army and haven't used a whole lot of great weapon warriors

I will make sure to try them out more.

I do love hammerers though

nonchalance
15-06-2010, 17:37
I'm absolutely guessing here, but why not?

1: Daemons, Dark Elves, Skaven
2: Empire, Lizardmen, High Elves
3: Dwarves, Vampire Counts, Warriors, Beastmen, Ogre Kingdoms
4: Wood Elves, Bretonnians, Orcs and Goblins
5: Tomb Kings

shelfunit.
15-06-2010, 17:41
As a Dark Elf player im not exactly sure how you are getting this? Some of the rumors hit us just as hard as everybody else…. I would think WoC, or Beastmen would get the bigger boosts. They’ll be moving faster, charging further with troops that can rip you in half, and with the str7 instakill gone, those core chariots for BoC are gonna be all over the place!

For the same reasons they are now, along with all the bonuses they are getting...

1) Better shooting than anyone else, now improved by additional rank firing.
2) Chariots, no more insta-kill
3) Striking first against everyone except other elves
4) Hydra, only one breath weapon, can't break ranks but still the best thing in the game, now with added stomp attack things
5) Can generate more power dice than any other race more consistantly now

To be fair they are getting all the same benefits as everyone else with the only disadvantage being a few people will actually (shock! Horror!) be able to strike back gainst them now.

Yes other races are getting a boost, but relatively DE are less detrimentally affected than the other top teir armies.

Tarliyn
15-06-2010, 17:44
I'm absolutely guessing here, but why not?

1: Daemons, Dark Elves, Skaven
2: Empire, Lizardmen, High Elves
3: Dwarves, Vampire Counts, Warriors, Beastmen, Ogre Kingdoms
4: Wood Elves, Bretonnians, Orcs and Goblins
5: Tomb Kings

using this as a base:

1- Daemons, Dark Elves, Warriors
2- Skaven, Dwarfs
3: Lizards, Vamps, Beasts, Empire
3.5- High Elves (their infantry is so expensive)
4: OK, WE, Brets, O&G
5: Poor TKs

Bac5665
15-06-2010, 17:54
8th ed codex!!! Blasphemy!!! You shall be burned alive for that Herectic!!!


Bah!!!!!

I can't believe I did that. I feel quite ashamed :(

Tae
15-06-2010, 19:35
4) Hydra, only one breath weapon, can't break ranks but still the best thing in the game, now with added stomp attack things

The Doomwheel with it's 3 auto-hitting, no LoS requiring, no armour saving, artilery dice strength ...er, ing, and it's doing d6 wounds per shot'ing would very, very strongly disagree.

Although the Hydra now actually has the potential to be even better in combat, though I've not read the monsters and handlers bit to see whether it can still leg it quite so much, but if it does it's breath weapon in combat it's 2d6 hits instead of the template (afaik). So that would be 2d6 s W hits followed by 6 ws4 s3 AP attacks, 7 st 5 attacks and d6 mega stomp attacks (unsure of S of these, most likely 5 again). So it wont need to break ranks anymore as there'll be no one left!

WarmbloodedLizard
15-06-2010, 19:46
using this as a base:

1- Daemons, Dark Elves, Warriors
2- Skaven, Dwarfs
3: Lizards, Vamps, Beasts, Empire
3.5- High Elves (their infantry is so expensive)
4: OK, WE, Brets, O&G
5: Poor TKs

same, except I wound just put HE with the rest of tier 3 :D

Lord Inquisitor
15-06-2010, 19:54
I've been giving this some thought... All armies seem to be receiving boosts or disadvantages, but for the most part the internal balance is changing but I seem to find that all armies will have competitive builds, they just will look nothing like they did before...

Brettonians seem to be the biggest losers, at least in terms of an all-cavalry army, going to need to rely a lot more on peasants now, although maybe really long lance formations will be viable. Undead are not far behind. I'm not at all convinced that Vampire Counts will be unplayable, but I think VC armies will have to change dramatically. I'm forseeing a huge increase in the use of Grave Guard and Ghouls. Similarly, I don't know how Tomb Kings are going to cope - the lifting of character slots allows a lot more characters in these armies and we'll have to see how their respective magic phases do in the new environment.

Many other armies may change playstyle dramatically but remain competitive or get better. Ogres and Orcs and Gobbos look like they're getting a good boost but that's probably bringing them merely to the level of "playable". Warriors and Lizards look like they might be among the strongest now with good core infantry, although Warriors look like they'll be doing much better. In fact, I've pegged the Warriors as the army that most benefits from 8th.

Daemons - I really don't think they suffer much from the new rules, not as much as people seem to be making out. But they certainly don't gain as much so the gap will be closing. Dark Elves retain the potential to be brutal but don't gain as much from the new rules as their High Elf kin. The High Elves seem to be making out like bandits with the new rules and army-wide re-rolling to hits against most enemies is going to make them a force to be reckoned with, although I predict a shift towards basic infantry away from elite infantry. I've not seen Wood Elves on the tables in forever, so I can't really comment on them.

Beasts seem to be getting a very respectable boost but I don't think they're going to compete with heavier infantry armies like Warriors. Empire players must be loving the new rules, detachments are going to be a lot more viable and make them a very tough nut to crack.

Overall, I'm cautiously optimistic that we won't need a tier system anymore. I'm concerned as to how much damage is being done to the system to achieve this (M+2D6" charge distances are still not sitting well with me) but I think we're going to have to run uncomped tournaments for a while to figure out where the balance of power lies and hopefully every army will have enough 8th-ed-compatible units that a tier system won't be necessary. Although this may change when the first true 8th ed army books appear!

Malorian
15-06-2010, 19:56
Overall, I'm cautiously optimistic that we won't need a tier system anymore.

I would love it if I never heard about tiers again...

SeaSwift
15-06-2010, 20:06
There will be only 3 tiers:

1) DoC and DE
2) Most things, not much difference between armies here
3) TK and those poor, recent-ishly gained Army Book, nerfed to beyond WE...

Heimagoblin
15-06-2010, 20:14
Tier 1. Skaven
tier 2: deamons and dark elves
tier 3: Lizardmen, dwarfs, Warriors
tier 4: High elves, empire,Vampire counts, Beasts,orges, wood elves.
Tier 5: Tomb kings(awh poor tomb kings

I think skaven will be much better than people expect with the new rules. The thing is they can do everything cheaply and with contemptous reliablity compared to what was needed to balance them out. Consider 2x doom wheel+Hellpit+ cheap stubborn slaves within range of general+ units of 5 globadiers+ anything else good in the army+ doom rocket and storm banner.

Bac5665
15-06-2010, 20:14
I'm not sure why people think lizards are getting much better. Saurus are getting worse in most cases with the 1A from subsequent ranks rule and HW+S getting worse too. As it is right now, a unit of 15 Saurus is the same (except the extra rank bonus) as a 10 man saurus unit. That's +1 CR for the price of 5 more saurus. Not really worth it, but mandatory. And of course casualties effect saurus quicker than now, since they lose attacks from the 3rd rank.

And having to use haldards messes with TG in a big way.

On the other hand the crush them attack for stegs is a very nice boost and I'm happy about it. But Lizards seem to be to be almost identical in the new edition, so I don't particularly think they win anything.

I also think that Empire loses a bunch with everything becoming more killy, as they have to take more core infantry to soak up damage just as well, while almost nothing in the empire book gets better (except the mortor, which, granted, will get better).

Beastman are the same as empire (more casualties without reciprocal increase in killing power) EXCEPT that 6 minotaurs may the killiest unit ever in the game. And the monsters get the crush attach. So in 8E, minimum core archers and a boatload of minos (with standards now, apparently) and 2 cygors, will become very common. Don't know how much it will win, but I can't imagine that any other Beastman build is viable.

VC will be fine, all their toys works just fine, you just have to take more skellies to begin with. TK on the otherhand, well that just doesn't bear thinking about.

O&G still have animosity, but Ogres are better, if not a lot.

As far as I can tell, the tiers stay about the same, with VC dropping a tier or so to mid tier, and Beastmen joining Empire in that weird place where they each have 1 build that will scare everyone while anything else they field is just kinda sad.

Walgis
15-06-2010, 20:23
I'm not sure why people think lizards are getting much better. Saurus are getting worse in most cases with the 1A from subsequent ranks rule and HW+S getting worse too. As it is right now, a unit of 15 Saurus is the same (except the extra rank bonus) as a 10 man saurus unit. That's +1 CR for the price of 5 more saurus. Not really worth it, but mandatory. And of course casualties effect saurus quicker than now, since they lose attacks from the 3rd rank.

And having to use haldards messes with TG in a big way.

On the other hand the crush them attack for stegs is a very nice boost and I'm happy about it. But Lizards seem to be to be almost identical in the new edition, so I don't particularly think they win anything.

I also think that Empire loses a bunch with everything becoming more killy, as they have to take more core infantry to soak up damage just as well, while almost nothing in the empire book gets better (except the mortor, which, granted, will get better).

Beastman are the same as empire (more casualties without reciprocal increase in killing power) EXCEPT that 6 minotaurs may the killiest unit ever in the game. And the monsters get the crush attach. So in 8E, minimum core archers and a boatload of minos (with standards now, apparently) and 2 cygors, will become very common. Don't know how much it will win, but I can't imagine that any other Beastman build is viable.

VC will be fine, all their toys works just fine, you just have to take more skellies to begin with. TK on the otherhand, well that just doesn't bear thinking about.

O&G still have animosity, but Ogres are better, if not a lot.

As far as I can tell, the tiers stay about the same, with VC dropping a tier or so to mid tier, and Beastmen joining Empire in that weird place where they each have 1 build that will scare everyone while anything else they field is just kinda sad.

dont forget SLANN he will be a) a superb suporter mage wich will boost lizards very very much with healing or ASF or WS and I a 10!!!!
b) posibility of 2x slanns a killing magic cannon!!

i hope that TG get erreta and they have to buy halberds. that rule is blury i my vote would be that IF you buy a weapon you have to use him, if you have to you can choose.

heavens lore rocks becouse of uranos thunderblot being basic spell, take tetto eko and you have a heavy armor killing machines. not to mention those pore lords on flying carpets (heavens do addtional d6 hits for flyers)

Ultimate Life Form
15-06-2010, 20:28
dont forget SLANN he will be a) a superb suporter mage wich will boost lizards very very much with healing or ASF or WS and I a 10!!!!
b) posibility of 2x slanns a killing magic cannon!!

i hope that TG get erreta and they have to buy halberds. that rule is blury i my vote would be that IF you buy a weapon you have to use him, if you have to you can choose.

heavens lore rocks becouse of uranos thunderblot being basic spell, take tetto eko and you have a heavy armor killing machines. not to mention those pore lords on flying carpets (heavens do addtional d6 hits for flyers)

I'm not exactly sure about your mental state at the moment (your post was a bit difficult to read) but I have to point out that:

- I'm not sure what you mean with 'errata - have to buy halberds' as they are already included in the price

- and that Uranon's is not Heaven's basic spell which would be Blizzard/Snowstorm/whatever they call it in English.

Bac5665
15-06-2010, 20:34
dont forget SLANN he will be a) a superb suporter mage wich will boost lizards very very much with healing or ASF or WS and I a 10!!!!
b) posibility of 2x slanns a killing magic cannon!!

i hope that TG get erreta and they have to buy halberds. that rule is blury i my vote would be that IF you buy a weapon you have to use him, if you have to you can choose.

heavens lore rocks becouse of uranos thunderblot being basic spell, take tetto eko and you have a heavy armor killing machines. not to mention those pore lords on flying carpets (heavens do addtional d6 hits for flyers)

Slann are already just as good now as you describe, so its not a change.

Your haldards comment is just wishlisting and ULF has debunked your final comment.

Walgis
15-06-2010, 20:36
sorry for my bad english. where i read the uranos was basic spell sorry if i undersrand wrongly. the errata should fix TG in making them cheeper but giving an oportunity to buy halberds. its the only thing how to fix it. becouse it would be stupid if could choose in the begining of the battle wich you will use handwep or halberd. but it would be even worse if TG lose the posibility to use hand wep. IMO theyre better for theyr purpose with hand wep and shield. as i saw not many units have to weapons already equiped., others have an oportunity to buy them wich is way better than having them with no posibility not to use them.

again sorry for my bad english writing skills....

p.s
slann is totaly getting better. and plus lores are getting better, suportive spells are superb

shelfunit.
15-06-2010, 20:52
The Doomwheel with it's 3 auto-hitting, no LoS requiring, no armour saving, artilery dice strength ...er, ing, and it's doing d6 wounds per shot'ing would very, very strongly disagree.

Although the Hydra now actually has the potential to be even better in combat, though I've not read the monsters and handlers bit to see whether it can still leg it quite so much, but if it does it's breath weapon in combat it's 2d6 hits instead of the template (afaik). So that would be 2d6 s W hits followed by 6 ws4 s3 AP attacks, 7 st 5 attacks and d6 mega stomp attacks (unsure of S of these, most likely 5 again). So it wont need to break ranks anymore as there'll be no one left!

Maybe I just haven't played against enough of them, never had much of a problem myself.

willowdark
15-06-2010, 21:09
Doomwheels aren't hard to kill and are horribly random, so it's not really a good comparison for the Hydra.

Zoolander
15-06-2010, 21:12
Why people are so obsessed with tiers I'll never get. Nobody's going to know the answer at this point regardless.

Karlon
15-06-2010, 21:17
Why people are so obsessed with tiers I'll never get. Nobody's going to know the answer at this point regardless.

They need to know which army is going to be the most thoughtless and boring to win with so they can all go out and buy it en masse, obviously.

Maoriboy007
15-06-2010, 21:21
Easy:

DoC
DE
Chaos LM & Skaven
Most everyone else
OnG TK VC & OK

L1qw1d
15-06-2010, 21:45
Brettonians seem to be the biggest losers


With the exception of High Elves, I agree, ser!:D :skull:

I think we're going to see a bit of the "same old thing" feeling where we all say "OF COURSE THEY are up there!". In an ideal world, we won't need Tier and Comp and all that, but in a couple years, people are going to cry for it.I think HE will move up since they sound Exempt from everything; TK will still suck, if for no other reason than they blew the BEST concept with the WORST models; VC and DE will drop a touch unless you play them a SPECIFIC way, showing THEIR strengths (again, until it balances out). WE move up a bit as long as you play them THEIR certain way. And Dwarves will be tin cans of doom that you just pray to include an AP flank for...

I think that anyone crying "Imbalanced/Cheesy" really has to look into getting the army- you can't judge them based on your losses, only by their successes in your hands.

I think the Tier system will alter, but won't fade totally unless additional errata is released as the years go on til next ed- and that's why they HAVE next ed- to make the cash instead of releasing constant FAQ and Errata.

for some reason, I see Beasts and Skaven HAMMERING on everyone for a while as everyone figures things out over this next year, then a late rise with HE, WoC, DE (because... we're DE... and you all deserve it.). VC, if it drops some, will manage to hold fast most of the time, putting them in to Stunty statistics (well, higher versus Hordes with the possible raising of more units and making them passable in normal combat).

And Walgis, just say Pardon me. Never apologise when you can speak and spell English more functionally than 80% of American students.

stuntyKing
15-06-2010, 21:58
Well sure its still a little early to say, we still have to play test and figure out how each army actually works with the edition and what new strategies we can take form them but hey what can hurt from guessing!

So lets see

1: Doc, ( didn't seem to get too nurfed, im not even sure if you can call it nurfed ), dark elves ( maybe even got better then before)
2: here is where i'm not to sure. lizardmen and skaven for sure will be here but not sure what else ( dwarves and empire maybes?)
3: most armies, including OnG and OK
4:TK , VC bretonians
5: wood elves, but i think there getting a bit more bashed then they should, i bet they will be fine in the end.

So overall this is my "speculation", but also i think the differences in the tiers will be less, as in more balance to the game ( sadly to say because of less skill and more luck)

mrtn
15-06-2010, 22:29
Beastman are the same as empire (more casualties without reciprocal increase in killing power) EXCEPT that 6 minotaurs may the killiest unit ever in the game. And the monsters get the crush attach. So in 8E, minimum core archers and a boatload of minos (with standards now, apparently) and 2 cygors, will become very common. Don't know how much it will win, but I can't imagine that any other Beastman build is viable.

Did you forget the 25% minimum core requirement? I can't see anyone take 80 raiders. :rolleyes: I'll certainly not take a beastmen army looking anything like that.

Ultimate Life Form
15-06-2010, 22:30
You think I'm better off with my Skinks? :o

Tae
15-06-2010, 22:37
With the exception of High Elves, I agree, ser!:D :skull:

I assume you're being sarcastic :p what with their getting re-rolls to hit against virtually every non-character model.

kaintxu
16-06-2010, 00:14
been long analizing diferent builds and such, of diferent armies, toying with army builer and everything, and OK i know that since we havent played ita hard to be accurate, but lets see.

Daemos ARE really getting a nerf, i mean, they are not going to be a bottom army, but not what they are now, couple of armies will surpass them.

DAEMONS
Taken hits:
- Save or regen makes plaguebearers Crap.
- Step up, makes daemonentes and bloodletters suffer a lot, some ork at 5 points ea are going to mess this guys up a lot.
- Great daemons, yea D6 extra, still, wont make units runs thanks to stubborns.
- No cheap infantry to make stubborn blocks for ourselfs.
- Warmachines much more accurate to kill GD or units.
- hounds gone down a lot with stepping up same for crushers.
- .....

Gone great:
- Flamers marching and shooting

Resume: takes one of the strongest hits from all armies

LIZARDS

Taken hits:
- Spears on saurus.
- Hi cost infantries (saurus and TG) with low WS (for 10 points you get big guyz orc with more WS, same S and T, same attacks, and +1 S first turn hitting on 3's while you hit back on 4's so he will hit and wound on 3's first turn while you hit and would on 4's)
- Hi cost skinks, i mean they are great, good movement, but 5 points for WS 2 and most important T2? beeing a goblin T3 for 3 points? makes a great diference with new line of sights
- Stegadons, are not that good anymrore, pleople hurray the extra D6 but still the enemy is going to be stubborn with generals leadership, so he is going nowhere, then he is going to end up killing you since your stuck with 3 attacks.

Gone great:
- Salamanders.... no need to talk.
- Slan knowing whole lore, adding dice, adding 4 because of lvls, so no need to thrown that many dices and allways has cupper hands and stone discipline to protect himself.
- Skink skirmirshers. no -1 to shotting and moving, and marching and shotting is a great deal.

Conclusions, downed a bit, but i guess will be still nice, we'll have to see.

Vampires

Hits:
- Huge magic nerf, did I say HUGE? ok HUGE its is.
- ghouls can't have banners,
- Skelettons can, but still quite crappy in combat for 8 points a dude even if they cause fear.
- Lets hope corspe cart and other stuff coints towars the minimus 25% on core units, if not, they are screwed

Good stuff.
- Wolf are cheap you might get to make 12 -14 big units to flank around, or same with death knights.
- Warfghul making more hits, he could still not take ranks or flank so now its the same but stronger?

Conclusion: Huge hit, it will mean a total change on how they play and we will have to see how it goes.

HIGH & DARK ELVES

HITS:
- HE expensive.
- Both elves Weak

GOOD:
- Attack on I.
- HE ASF + High I = rerolling to hit.
- DE not too expensive units taking into accoun hatred, multiple attacks, high I, good WS and other stuff
- DE good lore and can make more dices.
- DE repeater xboxs are gonna be insane on units of 20.

Conclusions Both armies gone up, DE will be higher.

ORCS

- Mostly everything good, they are cheap so they have the numbers, I no more inportant because of stepping up, ......

EMPIRE
- New warmachines rules.
- destacaments (however its said in english, you know the small units on the sides of the big ones)
- cheap infantry
- Good gunlines.

In general goes up

DWARFS

similar to empire

I know there are more to look at buts thats about for now

antin3
16-06-2010, 00:28
I personally don't care for tiers but even if people are trying to evaluate them, shouldn't we wait for the army erratas that are set to be released? Won't they possibly have some effect on their respective armies?

UDirtyRat
16-06-2010, 00:49
While talking tiers is good conversation, I think tiers are irrelevant at this stage until an army errata comes through. Even if we all had rulebooks right now, I think we only have half the picture.

I think we should be expecting a VERY serious FAQ/Errata for every army book.

The current army books make no sense in 8th edition, and people are giving me the impression (not everyone, but most) that they are expecting the 7th edition books are porting over with little or no changes beyond a minor FAQ.

For each race I would expect an army wide review of points and rules, and even some stats for 8th edition. No less than 6-10 pages of documentation on changes.

Its ravening hordes all over again, but with more flavour. Otherwise I expect the books are going to be quite nonsense.

Dorack
16-06-2010, 00:53
It´s been stated that errata will only cover strict compatibility issues, no balance or point costs issues.

kaintxu
16-06-2010, 01:11
It´s been stated that errata will only cover strict compatibility issues, no balance or point costs issues.

Exactly, thats why i dont think the erratas/FAQs will be all that great.

Yea it will certainly solve some issues, but nothing about balancing point costs

goodz
16-06-2010, 01:21
I think woodleves and VC's take the worst hit. Woodelves movment hurts, and models off the back hurts them as well quite hard, also 2 ranks to flank hurts them ;)

VC's being forced to cast on 2 dice hurts them a ton, more then anything else:) (any roll of a 1-2 ends that wizards magic phase so a 1/3 on 1 dice of ending your phase, can make your last couple rolls on a single dice i guess:P

Omniassiah
16-06-2010, 01:36
Vampires will be fine for several reasons, The ability to take the same spell multiple times over multiple casters due to "buying" them. Lore of Death ability to gain extra power dice off of wounds. I think over all that Vampires should be able to weather the change just fine. Necromancers/Combat Vampires will be more valuable. Also the change in Remains in play will allow more use out of Curse of Years.

Only errata that I need to see is the Corpse Cart counting towards core or they will be completely out.

UberBeast
16-06-2010, 02:15
I don't see O&G jumping up too high until they get the enw book. Currently, I2 is a pretty big handicap to work without the heavy armor dwarves get.

kaintxu
16-06-2010, 03:53
no big deal with I2, go for number you can step up and attack with everything, and you are cheaper so?

My saururs are 6 points expensiver and have I1

ErictheGreen
16-06-2010, 11:08
How are they hampered by being able to take 500 pts of lord and 500pts of heroes in a 2000 pts game?

i'll be getting a chance to look at this in store today. page reference??

soots
16-06-2010, 13:58
Vampires got nerfilated. Fear is about 1/10 as strong as before.

Bac5665
16-06-2010, 15:15
Did you forget the 25% minimum core requirement? I can't see anyone take 80 raiders. :rolleyes: I'll certainly not take a beastmen army looking anything like that.

Are you kidding me? Painting aside, why not? That would be sick. First off all, you could deploy them anywhere and it wouldn't matter, you'd gain a huge advantage just in being able to deploy everything important exactly where you want. Second, that amount of bow fire will at least give an opponent pause, and third, you have endless screens for your minos.

So, sure, I understand that that list looks crazy to people, but so did RAF. My point was simply that as a power build, it would be crazy good. Never said it would be balanced or fun.

Scactha
16-06-2010, 15:27
Daemos ARE really getting a nerf, i mean, they are not going to be a bottom army, but not what they are now, couple of armies will surpass them.

DAEMONS
Taken hits:
- Save or regen makes plaguebearers Crap.
- Step up, makes daemonentes and bloodletters suffer a lot, some ork at 5 points ea are going to mess this guys up a lot.
- Great daemons, yea D6 extra, still, wont make units runs thanks to stubborns.
- No cheap infantry to make stubborn blocks for ourselfs.
- Warmachines much more accurate to kill GD or units.
- hounds gone down a lot with stepping up same for crushers.
- .....

Gone great:
- Flamers marching and shooting

Resume: takes one of the strongest hits from all armies
Add roof on PD, longer charging ranges, no Terror bombing and inability to take ANY of the new magic items. Demons are hit by half the new rules changes. I have a hard time understanding how people keep thinking they´ll be anywhere near as good.

They´re a small numbered elite army who relied on killing stuff and not getting a reply. Almost all those options are dead and buried.

Skyros
16-06-2010, 17:20
VC slip a tiny bit, with no more invocation on one dice spamming. Fear isn't as strong as it was before if you outnumbered the enemy, but stronger than it was if you didn't. OTOH I think they can get even more ridiculous with the characters than before.

Demons are mostly unchanged, hurt a little bit. They are so unlike everyone else it's really going to come down to their FAQ.

DE are still going to be great - ring of hotek gets quite a bit better, unless it gets an FAQ. They have very solid core to take advantage of the new core rules. Their high I essentially gives everyone 'ASF' for no points increase. Quite able to take advantage of the powerful new magic. I think the focus familiar is going to be a must have if it works to make the effects of miscasts occur somewhere else.

Dwarves get quite a bit better, so should be 'average' instead of 'terrible'. They have template war machines (the no partials really helps, not guessing ranges is barely a factor) good solid core, good infantry blocks, they charge MUCH farther than before now, they get stubborn if they have more ranks which really takes advantage of their leadership. Think they may improve the most out of everyone. Slayers get even worse, as with the increased killyness of units, a tarpit of naked guys isn't going to last long.

Skaven get a lot better, IMO. Stormvermin are some of the best troops choices in the game for 8e. Cavalry got much less useful, and Skaven don't have any - and their weakness has always been heavily armed cavalry units. The 'stubborn if more ranks' is probably better for skaven than any other army. The verminlord with his high I is a wrecking machine now. With access to the new PD generation system and their own lower casting valued lores, it's possible they could get a killer magic phase out of just one L2.

I think Empire gets worse - their 5 man knight units can no longer break flanks. Their detachments really can't either, unless they are huge. WP and AL magic appears to take it in the shorts. Flagellants as a tarpit become laughable. Naked WS2 T3 humans vs enemies that step up and fight in 2,3, maybe even 4 ranks? Not worth it. OTOH mortars don't use partials now. Is that enough to make up for it? Not sure. Lots of attacks back don't do much for S3 infantry.

HE get tons worse - their very expensive, very weak units that relied on striking first to prevent attacks back are going to get rolled. I think this is the army most harmed by 8e. In addition, as an expensive T3 army, they are the ones most hurt by the changes to mortars, stone throwers, and flame cannon, IMO. Any large HE block is just going to get massacred by template fire. Same for any DE, Empire, or Skaven block, but at least their troops are cheaper.

WoC get quite a bit better - I think their sorcerers are going to be very scary and powerful with some of the new spells, and marauders with great weapons stepping up in horde formation could be very scary.

TK: Unless there is some very favorable errata, they are going to suffer horribly from the new magic dispell/ bound spells mechanics. They were already weak, and just aren't going to work at all without major errata. Probably weakest 8e army.

OK: major boosts to all the monstrous infantry stuff.

LE: Can still run very character heavy with the 25% lords 25% heroes allotment. Stegadons get better. Slann can really take advantage of the new more powerful (yet more dangerous) miscast table.

OnG: I really don't see much that helps them drastically. Goblins will be stubborn on their own leadership. Oh yay? They don't have all that much in the way of scary template weaponry, certainly not like the flame cannon. OTOH their miscast table actually looks friendly now, they are well positioned to take advantage of the new removal of slot restrictions, and goblin bows firing in 3 ranks will be useful (combined with always wounding on 6's). I think they stop being terrible, but that's about it.

If I had to guess:

top tier: WoC, DE, Skaven
Next: VC, Demons, Lizardmen
Next: Everyone else
Last: TK, HE

Shiodome
16-06-2010, 17:33
For my O&G's the plus's as i see them:

Being able to take characters in massive abundance. Hero's in every wolf rider unit, etc... this teamed up with new cheap common magic items and there will be some nice cheap units with the tools to do the job

having fast cavalry cheap enough to take in the required numbers for rank breaking. while other armies (e.g wood elves) are going to have to rethink how they deal with ranks.

complete opening of special choices. being able to take 6 spear chukkas, 3 rock lobbas and still have boar boys, squigs or whatever at 2k will be a huge difference.

BSB changes allowing gobbo's rerolls on ALL leadership tests. can't begin to say how much goblins need this. and units of 50+ for <200 points being easily attainable, well stubborn ld6 is nothing to sneeze at, but also nothing to lose sleep over if they do run anyway.

the volley rule on shortbows... HELL YES! in a unit of 50 gobbos that's 35 shots, and with 6's a wound no matter how big you are that's pretty awesome.

also, what was once the worst miscast table is now probably the best :D compared to everyone else exploding in str10 fireballs, the waaagh miscast table is mild.

mainly i'm looking forward to taking a lord in every unit with a hero and a mage to back up each one though :D

Ronin[XiC]
16-06-2010, 18:26
Putting a Blackork hero in every single unit will be awesome :)

Lord Inquisitor
16-06-2010, 18:28
Vampires got nerfilated. Fear is about 1/10 as strong as before.

Depends. If your opponent suddenly goes to WS1, that makes your skeletons and ghouls much more effective.

Certainly for my Daemons, the new Fear rules might actually be an improvement on the old.

willowdark
16-06-2010, 18:35
You also test every turn now, not just once in the beginning. A failed roll could hurt your chances of dominating a Fear causer. two in a row could swing the fight decidedly out of your favor.

Paradox Tree
16-06-2010, 19:10
VC slip a tiny bit, with no more invocation on one dice spamming.
actually thats an army affecting change. i know a few vamp players who make 90% of their magic phases nothing but single dice nehek spams stupid jerks. without that ability everything will go down ~sooooo~ much easier. that alone changes teh entire game for them imo.

also Dark Elves cant shoot with more than one rank (though i havent actually gotten to read the book) but the rumor says that shooting with more ranks is for long/short/reglar bows only... unless the 2 rank shootins is different than salvo fire...

Heimagoblin
16-06-2010, 19:14
Lizardmen are getting better because slann become amazing ad their rank a file goes from amazing to quite good.

Shiodome
16-06-2010, 19:40
actually thats an army affecting change. i know a few vamp players who make 90% of their magic phases nothing but single dice nehek spams stupid jerks. without that ability everything will go down ~sooooo~ much easier. that alone changes teh entire game for them imo.

also Dark Elves cant shoot with more than one rank (though i havent actually gotten to read the book) but the rumor says that shooting with more ranks is for long/short/reglar bows only... unless the 2 rank shootins is different than salvo fire...

2 ranks shooting seems to be for everything. salvo fire is in every rank after the second rank, half of the models in that rank may fire if the unit hasn't moved.

this only applied to weapons with the salvo rule, which at the moment from the weapons list is short/normal/long bows.

Nighthawke
16-06-2010, 19:51
ccan iask why everyone things HEget worse? :S
i say them in a game and by god they were amazing. big units of sea guard rock thanks to the ASF rule giving HE eternal hatred agaisnt pretty much everyone . volley fire thing rocks especially in units like this. Apparently from the people using the rulebooks if you have the ASL and ASF rulethey cancel out to strike in I order.
im sorry but i really do think HE get a boost. tomb kings though i think suffer the worst untill the errata. purely due to the fact they have to roll for the bound level spell then have to try to cast it at that level :(

kaintxu
16-06-2010, 22:05
Add roof on PD, longer charging ranges, no Terror bombing and inability to take ANY of the new magic items. Demons are hit by half the new rules changes. I have a hard time understanding how people keep thinking they´ll be anywhere near as good.

They´re a small numbered elite army who relied on killing stuff and not getting a reply. Almost all those options are dead and buried.

Amen


VC slip a tiny bit, with no more invocation on one dice spamming. Fear isn't as strong as it was before if you outnumbered the enemy, but stronger than it was if you didn't. OTOH I think they can get even more ridiculous with the characters than before.

Agree


Demons are mostly unchanged, hurt a little bit. They are so unlike everyone else it's really going to come down to their FAQ.

Yeps its down to the fact, if not, they have changed a lot, just read all the things i posted in my list, plus the ones added by scactha


I think Empire gets worse - their 5 man knight units can no longer break flanks. Their detachments really can't either, unless they are huge. WP and AL magic appears to take it in the shorts. Flagellants as a tarpit become laughable. Naked WS2 T3 humans vs enemies that step up and fight in 2,3, maybe even 4 ranks? Not worth it. OTOH mortars don't use partials now. Is that enough to make up for it? Not sure. Lots of attacks back don't do much for S3 infantry.

Do not agree, the have cheap infantry, and detachments, make them 15 big, and there you go, they take of ranks, so they are not bad. Flagelants, where, there you have apoints same with knight, but ey, their knight are cheap enough compared to all other cavalries with a 1+ save, so what else you wants, you can take 12 with standar for 292 points, and have to loose 3 guys with a 1+ save before not breaking ranks, or go with 11 with a priest for hatred, remember, second ranks guys (not horses) also throw in 1 attack....



LE: Can still run very character heavy with the 25% lords 25% heroes allotment. Stegadons get better. Slann can really take advantage of the new more powerful (yet more dangerous) miscast table.

Really stegadons get better? why? crush attacks? ld9 toughness? and? they will be recieving doble the number of attacks, and they suck attacking, and they dont break ranks anymore so actually they are not getting better, they just got more hit power on the charge, but the enemy is going to be stubborn so you are screed.

Slann is actually getting better for me, yea, you might need more magic defense, but still, more killy.

Sallies awesomness :D

skink skirmirshers great :D

Lizard warriors, not that great due to low I, low WS and "high" cost

TG huber high cost for low I and low WS for 16 points a piece, still not bad


top tier: WoC, DE, Skaven
Next: VC, Demons, Lizardmen
Next: Everyone else
Last: TK, HE

I would add some more armies to the 2nd tier but we will still have to see, and HE no where are last, they are quite more on the top


Depends. If your opponent suddenly goes to WS1, that makes your skeletons and ghouls much more effective.

Certainly for my Daemons, the new Fear rules might actually be an improvement on the old.

fear for the VC not that great with WS 1 or 2, they are still going to get hit on 4's, which is better than 3's but not that a great detachment, zombies are still going to do nothing with S2 and T2, and skellies, well, something more, but not that great at 8points a piece


Lizardmen are getting better because slann become amazing ad their rank a file goes from amazing to quite good.

Actually they are not getting better, they are allready a top tier army, its just they are not getting a bit hit neither, some stuff is going for worse, some other stuff is going fot better, but i will still think they are going to be a tinny little worse, just a tad


ccan iask why everyone things HEget worse? :S
i say them in a game and by god they were amazing. big units of sea guard rock thanks to the ASF rule giving HE eternal hatred agaisnt pretty much everyone . volley fire thing rocks especially in units like this. Apparently from the people using the rulebooks if you have the ASL and ASF rulethey cancel out to strike in I order.
im sorry but i really do think HE get a boost. tomb kings though i think suffer the worst untill the errata. purely due to the fact they have to roll for the bound level spell then have to try to cast it at that level :(

I dont think they get much worse, actually i think they get quite better, only problem is they are going to suffer from new gunlines, magic more than other due to them being fragile and well, steeping up hurts them, but they also step up, and ASF and reroll to hit and.....

Lord Inquisitor
16-06-2010, 22:09
fear for the VC not that great with WS 1 or 2, they are still going to get hit on 4's, which is better than 3's but not that a great detachment, zombies are still going to do nothing with S2 and T2, and skellies, well, something more, but not that great at 8points a piece
Undead hitting on 3's is a big deal for them!

However, I would predict that in the new edition undead are going to be heavy on the Ghouls as they can actually fight their way out of a paper bag...

Nighthawke
16-06-2010, 22:13
I dont think they get much worse, actually i think they get quite better, only problem is they are going to suffer from new gunlines, magic more than other due to them being fragile and well, steeping up hurts them, but they also step up, and ASF and reroll to hit and.....
i can see with shooting but they wont suffer that much from it, and i think they are going to be amazing in the magic phase with them having drain magic, which has quite a low casting value for what it can do to 8th spells :)

UDirtyRat
17-06-2010, 00:07
Exactly, thats why i dont think the erratas/FAQs will be all that great.

Yea it will certainly solve some issues, but nothing about balancing point costs

Wow, I did not know that was the case.

So, an edition completely changes the way the game is played and turns the tables on what is strong in the game and they dont plan to alter any points values.

So a CW that was considered fair points before, now gets a fair bit better due to combat mechanics changing and they stay the same value. The same applies to all troops, I just took the time honoured example with our friend, the humble CW. Knights should get cheaper, war machines a total review, flyers a review, skirmishers seem worse, wizards (magic) god knows etc...

Also, the BRB magic lores just got 20 injections of stegadon steroids, where does that leave the the racial magic lores?

I think this introduces a problem of people picking from a narrower band of troops, as certain troops will not be good value and some will be great value due to the points costs not being reviewed. Certain troops will be quite unsavoury and others will be delicious.

balance = :no:

RanaldLoec
17-06-2010, 00:20
I've read the new rule book and wood elves will rip every one a new a hole. Oh just finished dreaming time to wake up now. I'm sure I'll find a use for my wood elves once a new book comes oh so slowly over the hill.

Amnar
17-06-2010, 00:20
DE well, DE are the cream of the current crop. there is no reason to think they they are going to be weakened especially with initiative becoming important.



I think you underestimate just how fragile T3, low armour troops are. Especially since you can no longer just wipe out the front rank. DE combat armies get boned, DE shooty/magic armies get buffed... lame..

Maoriboy007
17-06-2010, 00:37
I think you underestimate just how fragile T3, low armour troops are. Especially since you can no longer just wipe out the front rank. DE combat armies get boned, DE shooty/magic armies get buffed... lame..

I think you overestimate how uncommon T3 is in armies, they are really not much worse thabn other armies defensivly, And they easily dish out as good as they get, in most cases with interest.

Maoriboy007
17-06-2010, 00:57
Vampires will be fine for several reasons, The ability to take the same spell multiple times over multiple casters due to "buying" them. Lore of Death ability to gain extra power dice off of wounds. I think over all that Vampires should be able to weather the change just fine. Necromancers/Combat Vampires will be more valuable. Also the change in Remains in play will allow more use out of Curse of Years..

Have you read the changes to magic? Your opponent gets hefty magic defence for free, casting spells is basically playing russian roulette for VC , fantastic for an army that needs magic to survive.


VC slip a tiny bit, with no more invocation on one dice spamming. Fear isn't as strong as it was before if you outnumbered the enemy, but stronger than it was if you didn't. OTOH I think they can get even more ridiculous with the characters than before. top tier:
WoC, DE, Skaven
Next: VC, Demons, Lizardmen
Next: Everyone else
Last: TK, HE

VC dont really benefit much from the new infantry rules , unlike DoC and DE. And VC already overpay for fear and raising, both of which have been nerfed in 8th.
While I disagreed on VC PD abuse in general I also thought magic Defence put the onus on the person who actually wanted to use magic in their army.


actually thats an army affecting change. i know a few vamp players who make 90% of their magic phases nothing but single dice nehek spams stupid jerks. without that ability everything will go down ~sooooo~ much easier. that alone changes teh entire game for them imo.

This is more the fault of Scroll caddies making casting more powerful spells worthless, if you are going to spend points on magic you should get some value out of it. Not to mention Nehek can't win battles in itself.

All the anti VC hysteria has really paid off in this edition while allowing other armies to slip quietly under the radar and its a good thing I like playing underdog armies as well as my favourite VCs. Now I get to combine both.

UDirtyRat
17-06-2010, 01:16
If the errata doesnt include a review of points and balance... VC are severely nerfed.

I think the russian roulette comment is spot on. I think I read throwing 1 dice and rolling a 1 equals miscast.

Based on this, i think...

1st : WoC, DE, Skaven, DoC
2nd: Empire, Lizardmen, OnG, Beasts, Dwarf, HE
3rd: VC, Ogres, WE
Poo: TK, Brett

Also I would like to add to that a personal jab, creating an entirely new edition and subsequently doing an army wide errata and not reviewing points value/balance is an EPIC fail.

Shiodome
17-06-2010, 01:26
speculating on potential epic fails is also fairly epic fail. wait until you know something before complaining about it.

Dungeon_Lawyer
17-06-2010, 02:04
I'm absolutely guessing here, but why not?

1: Daemons, Dark Elves, Skaven
2: Empire, Lizardmen, High Elves
3: Dwarves, Vampire Counts, Warriors, Beastmen, Ogre Kingdoms
4: Wood Elves, Bretonnians, Orcs and Goblins
5: Tomb Kings

switch HE's with VC and I think we have a winner....

I cant believe all these folks saying VC are goners now---Thats just the IoN spammers talking, combat oriented vamp armies are going to be ace.

Emeraldw
17-06-2010, 02:12
switch HE's with VC and I think we have a winner....

I cant believe all these folks saying VC are goners now---Thats just the IoN spammers talking, combat oriented vamp armies are going to be ace.

Those exist!?

Seriously though, I don't think the "tiers" will shift that much, apart from Ogres who are seeing a pretty good upgrade.

Maoriboy007
17-06-2010, 02:40
I cant believe all these folks saying VC are goners now---Thats just the IoN spammers talking, combat oriented vamp armies are going to be ace.

Depends on the army and your definition of spamming.
Did you spam because its cheap, or because or army needs it? or because scrolls made casting anything else completely worthless?
I haven't seen anything yet to change the situation, except the life of a Wizard has certainly been made a lot harder (and shorter).
Considering Undead armies are magic reliant, and thier Generals are wizards AND kill their armies when they die are pretty much the source of any VC dissatisfaction.
I'll remember to congratulate my opponant on his skill 1 out of 4 games when my General miscasts and my army implodes by itself.


Those exist!?.

Indeed they do, Master of the Black arts doesn't appear in my armies. My Lord and at least 2 of my Heros are designed to see combat and I play at least 2 Units of full sized infantry (20 Skeletons 20 GraveGuard).
Still that infantry relies pretty heavily on magic, and why do skeletons cost so much unless I am supposed to be able to raise them with magic? They fight worse than goblins.


Seriously though, I don't think the "tiers" will shift that much, apart from Ogres who are seeing a pretty good upgrade.

Vampires and TKs definitly take a massive hit. WoC pretty much takes VCs place (they were never that far behind in the first place. Otherwise things pretty much stay the same, and theres the problem.

Lord Inquisitor
17-06-2010, 02:43
VCs will be fine, they just won't be the powerhouse they once were. People just are overreacting.

Spamming invocation will work just fine - you can buy necromancers for that (necromancers for raising dead? Surely not!)

Sure the core infantry might suck but grave guard bunkers just got better. I plan on fielding at least 2 big units. I might even plump out to horde level with great weapons. As for core, ghouls are cheap and can fight their way out of a paper bag. Inititive sucks ... But corpse carts with necromancers bulking out units to ASF hordes might be interesting...

Wight kings look more attractive now freed from the necessity of maxing out on magic. Suddenly a 3-wound hero with T5 looks mighty tasty.

There's plenty of good points to the new rules for VCs. Much like the Daemons and Dark Elves it's certainly great if the rules bring them down a peg or two - if the new edition actually does away with the need for a tier system that's fantastic - but I don't think the big three are anywhere near uncompetitive.

Maoriboy007
17-06-2010, 02:47
VCs will be fine, they just won't be the powerhouse they once were. People just are overreacting.

Spamming invocation will work just fine - you can buy necromancers for that (necromancers for raising dead? Surely not!)

Sure the core infantry might suck but grave guard bunkers just got better. I plan on fielding at least 2 big units. I might even plump out to horde level with great weapons. As for core, ghouls are cheap and can fight their way out of a paper bag. Inititive sucks ... But corpse carts with necromancers bulking out units to ASF hordes might be interesting...

Wight kings look more attractive now freed from the necessity of maxing out on magic. Suddenly a 3-wound hero with T5 looks mighty tasty.

There's plenty of good points to the new rules for VCs. Much like the Daemons and Dark Elves it's certainly great if the rules bring them down a peg or two - if the new edition actually does away with the need for a tier system that's fantastic - but I don't think the big three are anywhere near uncompetitive.

Do you really think most of the rule changes aren't directly aimed at VC? I don't really see DE taking much of a hit.And DoC actually benefit from the Stubborn rules unlike VC. I wouldn't mind taking the hit so much if the ladel had been shared around equally.

kaintxu
17-06-2010, 03:13
If the errata doesnt include a review of points and balance... VC are severely nerfed.

I think the russian roulette comment is spot on. I think I read throwing 1 dice and rolling a 1 equals miscast.

Based on this, i think...

1st : WoC, DE, Skaven, DoC
2nd: Empire, Lizardmen, OnG, Beasts, Dwarf, HE
3rd: VC, Ogres, WE
Poo: TK, Brett

Also I would like to add to that a personal jab, creating an entirely new edition and subsequently doing an army wide errata and not reviewing points value/balance is an EPIC fail.


switch HE's with VC and I think we have a winner....

I cant believe all these folks saying VC are goners now---Thats just the IoN spammers talking, combat oriented vamp armies are going to be ace.

How are you guys placing daemons on top tier? They are still good but not top.

Not great benefit from infantry rules since they are expensive and not all that resilient. The tough unit we had, has gone down a lot having to choose between regen and ward.

Our cavalry, with stepping up, sux since they have no decent armor save.

GD wont break units thus ussage gonne down also.

Only good thing daemos are getting are the marching and shooting flamers, which are now fixed formation, so not that great either.

They needed to be lowered, and so have they. I guess they wont be bad, but not what you guys think

Bloodletter 12 points WS 5 S5 T3 I4 A1 5+ ward deathblow
black guard 13 points WS 5 S4 T3 I6 A2 5+ AS, allways rerroll to hit Stuborn.
Executioners 12 points WS 5 S6 T3 ASL A1 5+AS deathblow kainhite, hate

Way better the black guard than the bloodletters, and eve executioners, get hate without a hero on them, facing each other the S6 is no big deal, bug against unit with T4 and 4+AS it is

a18no
17-06-2010, 03:20
Bloodletter against executionner?? You forget one of the big thing: ItP, unbreakable and cause fear

Ward against AS... can't be compared
S6 ASL, S5 at I4... whose better?

Both for 12 points... ouch

Black guard against bloodletters??

Black guard pay 1 more point to get:
Same:WS, same T, ItP
Less: -1S, armor no ward, stubborn for unbreakable, no killing blow,
More: always reroll, +2I, +1 attack (in 8th, it's only in the firt rank though)

More attack (not double, let say 2 ranks fight in 8th, no horde rule cause black guard CAN'T be a horde equal 50% more attack), hit more (the re-roll is 33% to 50% more hit), wound less (25% to 50%), kill less (more armor for opponent), die more (same WS, same T, armor no ward)

Conclusion: comparable killing power, black guard are killed faster, CAN run (not statistiquelly easy, but do-able), with 1 point more....

kaintxu
17-06-2010, 03:35
Black guard is ItP

unbrealable, but they are going to loose more models to crumble, and ok fear.

they ones I said way better are the black guard, which i still think they are

Ghazbad_Facestompa
17-06-2010, 03:52
I see O&G going up a bit. Sure, my mainstay combat unit (boyz wiv shields) is cheap, possibly even slightly underpriced for what they can do, but I expect that people can figure out how to beat a horde of them, even supported by a kitted out black orc warboss and BSB. Da boyz seem like they'll be relying on winning the first round and reforming to a deeper formation if an allied flank charge doesn't go in at the first round, simply so they can stick around.
Night goblins can still put out a lot of pain with their bows, but fanatics won't be doing as much against the big units. I'll be relegating them to flank guards.
Important units squabbling shouldn't be as much of a threat, since a cheap black orc can be placed in each, but that would cut into rares (trolls; giants are now much less useful, as are doom divers) and specials (chukkas, lobbas, and others to taste).
What I'm trying to say is, O&G seem like they'll be a decent middle-of-the-line army, but they won't go any higher, at least until their next book.

Orangecoke
17-06-2010, 04:16
What is it about WoC that makes them benefit so much from 8th (forgive my incredible noobiness) - I'm getting ready to fire up a new army for 8th and WoC might be a great choice if for example the basic warriors got really good (because I like the models basically).

UDirtyRat
17-06-2010, 04:44
Core CWs are going to be a nuisance to deal with any which way you try, so long as they are in a block of about 20, its always going to be difficult to take them down

Their sheer killing power and staying power for a core troop is massive.

You can surround them and all you are doing in most cases is allowing them to build more combat res by them hacking down your troops.

Now it doesnt matter if you charge them, they have a high intitiative and go first often. In any case, step up means even if you do go first and you hack a lot down (which is hard) the rest get to strike back, and they hit harder than 90% of troops.

They can be given GW or xtra hand weapons. mark of khorne delivers more pain.

WS5 S4 T4 I5 A2

UDirtyRat
17-06-2010, 04:47
I would have placed DoC above my current 1st tier prior to this edition.

They have been knocked down a bit. I just dont know how much yet, I suspect enough to bring them in line with the other good 1st tier armies.

They still have plenty of good options.

Horrors miscasting will be interesting...

Irish_Icicle
17-06-2010, 05:02
horrors miscasting will be as interesting as it is now, d6 die.

southpaw
17-06-2010, 05:24
I would have placed DoC above my current 1st tier prior to this edition.

They have been knocked down a bit. I just dont know how much yet, I suspect enough to bring them in line with the other good 1st tier armies.

They still have plenty of good options.

Horrors miscasting will be interesting...

Glean magic will be real interesting..... I wounder how Glean magic works with the different levels that you can cast spells at (Blue Scribes as well) since they do not roll dice to cast the spell.

freddieyu
17-06-2010, 05:34
The less tiers the better I say....as long as in the end most of the books have a chance of winning then this new edition will be a success...

Irish_Icicle
17-06-2010, 05:49
Glean magic will be real interesting..... I wounder how Glean magic works with the different levels that you can cast spells at (Blue Scribes as well) since they do not roll dice to cast the spell.

pure speculation; it'll work like bound spells, they cast at the basic casting value.

Trains_Get_Robbed
17-06-2010, 05:51
Just a question, but in an edition that relies and essentially requires SCR and CR with kills, how does a T3 Skrimishing army that has one RnF Troop choice (and the only thing that actually can take a banner on top of that mind you), has no protection from warmachines in Woods (which it thrives on) or other cover on the board, lack armor (which is practically required to keep troops alive) and lack strength excluding for a few special magic items for heros only -not to mention that their are now magic banners like the Storm Banner that are common items now- not come in behind TK? WOOD ELEVES ARE THE BOTTOMESTSTSTSTST TIER.

The only net advantages that WE gain is shooting in 2 ranks (thats a bonus how? The entire army is shooting what is saving space going to do for you) and Heroic Killing Blow. I can see lords/heroes in Way watcher kindreds left and right now.

Don't be suprised if GW makes skirmishing troops like Dryads and Wardancers (giving the later the ability to take a banner) RnF as well as skirmshers in other armies.

ChaosVC
17-06-2010, 07:15
[COLOR="Magenta"]But corpse carts with necromancers bulking out units to ASF hordes might be interesting...
[COLOR]

Woah! ASF skeletons and zombies with 8th ed ASF rules... it would be a rather ground breaking combo...

necroncell2131
17-06-2010, 08:58
Skirmishers are stubborn in woods and Ranked troops lose the steadfast rule when they enter forests, so wood elves have gotten a boost kinda

Eta
17-06-2010, 10:41
Do you really think most of the rule changes aren't directly aimed at VC? I don't really see DE taking much of a hit.And DoC actually benefit from the Stubborn rules unlike VC. I wouldn't mind taking the hit so much if the ladel had been shared around equally.

Of course, GW secretly hates VC and wrote the whole 8th edition only to nerf VC :rolleyes:. Seriously, stop being paranoid and stop whining. Please.

Greetings
Eta

Cordantheman
17-06-2010, 13:02
Add roof on PD, longer charging ranges, no Terror bombing and inability to take ANY of the new magic items. Demons are hit by half the new rules changes. I have a hard time understanding how people keep thinking they´ll be anywhere near as good.

They´re a small numbered elite army who relied on killing stuff and not getting a reply. Almost all those options are dead and buried.

I agree and I think it was needed... I went to a couple tourneys around here where there were always at least 2 daemon armies in first, second, or third. In one all three spot were DOC....it was probably the best sign i've ever seen of a army needing a nerf bat....