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View Full Version : Am I the only one that wants a official exodite army?



woodfin
15-06-2010, 19:02
Converting is fun and all but really I want a official Army.

Sunfang
15-06-2010, 19:15
prolly wont happen any time soon...

aka_mythos
15-06-2010, 19:16
I think exodites would be fun to see, but I think they're too limited in unit selection to be worth a full army list. What always made more sense to me would be if exodites were brought in conceptually as part fo the Dark Eldar codex. Fluff wise the the non-craftworld Eldar pretty much headed for Commorragh, so maybe some fluff piece could be done that specifically mentions a small group of exodites making it there. Their dinosaurs could be updated to warp beasts. Where they mercenary themselves out to DE lord's raid in exchange for their own little corner of territory.

Lord Damocles
15-06-2010, 19:21
I'd like a Hrud list. And a Nekulli list. And a Q'orl list. And a Necron Tombworld list. And...


Simply not feasible to give everyone and their cousins official lists. Some factions have been waiting almost a decade for an update as it is.

woodfin
15-06-2010, 19:36
I think exodites would be fun to see, but I think they're too limited in unit selection to be worth a full army list. What always made more sense to me would be if exodites were brought in conceptually as part fo the Dark Eldar codex. Fluff wise the the non-craftworld Eldar pretty much headed for Commorragh, so maybe some fluff piece could be done that specifically mentions a small group of exodites making it there. Their dinosaurs could be updated to warp beasts. Where they mercenary themselves out to DE lord's raid in exchange for their own little corner of territory.

http://www.agisn.de/html/troops.html All GW needs to do is expand off this.

Hunger
15-06-2010, 19:41
Some armies should be left off the 'official' roll in my opinion. Stuff like exodites, stealer cults, lost & the damned, ad mech etc are special, and it takes something extra from a player to have the drive to create a good take on them.

Its also that much more special when you get to face one - when's the last time you fought an army that has no codex? How about an army of entirely converted models?

woodfin
15-06-2010, 19:43
http://www.agisn.de/html/codex_exodites.html Good fan codex.

Jokaero!
15-06-2010, 20:42
I love Exodites but there are so many other races and armies who need updating and I'd much rather see a new race or two long before any official Exodites.

You could argue that specific Space Marine chapters get their own codices and models and that Exodites are as important to 40k as Dark Eldar but you have to be realistic. There has to be a reason for the armies to fight, you can't have every fight as 'Ork Warlord invades Exodite World, Tyranid menace invades Exodite world' whereas there is cause for any other army to be fighting on any world in the galaxy.

Look at miniatures and rules too. The Lizardmen range and Dark Elf Cold Ones lend themselves excellently toward Exodite conversions whereas there is plenty of scope for count as lists in the Craftworld List. In fact when Dark Eldar come out there might even be a better way of doing them.

I heard a rumour recently that Forge World had considered doing them a few years ago but decided against it. So it goes.

woodfin
15-06-2010, 21:12
I love Exodites but there are so many other races and armies who need updating and I'd much rather see a new race or two long before any official Exodites.

You could argue that specific Space Marine chapters get their own codices and models and that Exodites are as important to 40k as Dark Eldar but you have to be realistic. There has to be a reason for the armies to fight, you can't have every fight as 'Ork Warlord invades Exodite World, Tyranid menace invades Exodite world' whereas there is cause for any other army to be fighting on any world in the galaxy.

Look at miniatures and rules too. The Lizardmen range and Dark Elf Cold Ones lend themselves excellently toward Exodite conversions whereas there is plenty of scope for count as lists in the Craftworld List. In fact when Dark Eldar come out there might even be a better way of doing them.



I heard a rumour recently that Forge World had considered doing them a few years ago but decided against it. So it goes.


They can in least give the pieces needed for some conversions, I want to make a army of these guys but I don't have all that money.

Gorbad Ironclaw
15-06-2010, 21:34
I think exodites would be fun to see, but I think they're too limited in unit selection to be worth a full army list. What always made more sense to me would be if exodites were brought in conceptually as part fo the Dark Eldar codex. Fluff wise the the non-craftworld Eldar pretty much headed for Commorragh, so maybe some fluff piece could be done that specifically mentions a small group of exodites making it there. Their dinosaurs could be updated to warp beasts. Where they mercenary themselves out to DE lord's raid in exchange for their own little corner of territory.


To me it would make a whole lot more sense in the Craftworld Eldar codex. The Craftworlds frequently engage in military action to support the exodites in one way or another so having a few units of them would make a decent amount of sense. I don't think the Dark Eldars really do and the Exodites left before even the Craftworlders because they were thoroughly disgusted by the Eldar society of old so them suddenly teaming up with the Dark Eldars would be very strange.

Bunnahabhain
15-06-2010, 21:41
I want a rules system that allows Exodites, and a dozen other missing small factions to be represented properly, using a wider stat system, so they can be different enough to not stand on an existing forces toes, without breaking the system...

Solid foundations let you build much better things on top of them.

Dr.Clock
15-06-2010, 21:41
I am absolutely going to build an exodite force at some point...

My plan is actually to use the Tyranids codex: lots of big gribblies to play around with.

For instance:

Lord on carnosaur: Hive Tyrant

Knights with heavy weapons: Hive Guard (going to mount eldar Missile Launchers pointing as if they fire rockets over the heads of the army)

Battle Mages: zoanthropes

Citizen levy: termagaunts

Megadon with battle mage: tervigon

Heavy Dragon Knights: Tyranid Warriors

Light Dragon Knights: Raveners

Megadon with webway-engine: Trygon Prime

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

AFnord
15-06-2010, 21:44
http://www.agisn.de/html/troops.html All GW needs to do is expand off this.

It is not really as easy as that. It would probably be easier for GW to start from scratch, as expanding on someone elses work can be a bit of a juridical nightmare for a company so keen on protecting its IP. And they would also have to create a new miniature line, which is costly



They can in least give the pieces needed for some conversions, I want to make a army of these guys but I don't have all that money.
You will simply have to make do with any available peaces. And by the looks of those conversions they should not be incredibly expensive in the first place. Pick up some cold ones (ebay?), some wood elves & some eldar guardian boxes. You could also go with other manufacturers dinosaurs. Conversion kits would probably not save you a whole lot of money.

[SD] Bob Plisskin
15-06-2010, 22:33
I'd rather see Codex: Harliequins personally.

However I believe that 'counts as' and conversions are will be the only choice for either of these armies, and I believe that is a good thing. If you have the drive to do it you will.

woodfin
15-06-2010, 22:37
I think I'll just pay BTP $900 to make it, to lazy to do all the converting myself.

Dwane Diblie
16-06-2010, 03:18
I have been hankering for the return of Exodites since the day they where droped from the game. I had and used them in 2nd ed along with Shining Spears. I would still use them now if I had the opetunity to as I think there is not enough Cavelry/Beasts in the game.

But, on reading this I have come up with an idea. An expantion rule set in a book like the apocalypse book that introduces rules for using allies in your forces. Then you would list a whole bunch of rare and limited forgotted/neglected army lists. So it could have the Exodites, Chaos and Genestealer cults, Adeptus Mechanicus, Feral Orks, Generic Inquisition, Extream Amounts of Tau Auxiliries and whatever else is out there. (Even, dare I say it, Squats?)

I think this would be increadably exciting to get all these little addatives in one massive book. It should be the last expantion made for our current addition so that everything else can be done properly befor it and then it could also be put togeather with the next addition in mind so it will carry through and not be a total waste when the editions change.

woodfin
16-06-2010, 03:33
I say we make a fan rule set and lore pretty much a fan made game and put on our beards and turn 4'1!


Who's with me!

scopedog91
16-06-2010, 03:35
Are you the only one?
Yes...

Wishing
16-06-2010, 14:02
I'm personally puzzled as to why GW has never picked up the exodite concept and turned it into a model range, having lived in the fluff for as long as I can remember, rather than making up entirely new races from scratch like dark eldar, necrons and tau. Either the GW shareholders just don't like them, or they've done market consumer research of some sort showing that they wouldn't sell well, would be my guesses. The same goes for harlequins, who even used to have a model range and their own army list back in the day, but were then subsequently ignored and just given token attention as part of the main eldar army. The powers behind GW development truly move in mysterious ways.

Hellebore
16-06-2010, 14:07
I think exodites would be fun to see, but I think they're too limited in unit selection to be worth a full army list.

Didn't stop GW releasing multiple codicies that represent the fighting forces of 1000 man space marine chapters and then rewriting their background just to add more units to justify them.

Hellebore

Wishing
16-06-2010, 14:25
Agreed. The only reason they're limited in unit selection is because they don't have a model range, so their unit selection only exists in theory. The only kind of attention they've ever gotten is as dinosaur riders, which starts out pretty diverse - all the lizardmen riding beasts (cold ones, stegadons, carnosaus, terradons) are obvious - and they'd obviously have a range of appropriately themed infantry options too. The scope is endless.

Sai-Lauren
16-06-2010, 15:04
Didn't stop GW releasing multiple codicies that represent the fighting forces of 1000 man space marine chapters and then rewriting their background just to add more units to justify them.

Hellebore
Agreed - we have the red turbo-combat nutters, the black and white turbo-combat nutters who don't like psykers, the grey feral turbo-combat nutters with beards and a hangover...

Exodites could be trying to reclaim a maiden world, or acting to prevent their world from coming under attack, or trying to retrieve a stolen artifact... basically anything Craftworld Eldar would do.

However, they're probably close enough stylistically to Craftworld Eldar to be a variant list.

Zweischneid
16-06-2010, 15:23
Agreed. The only reason they're limited in unit selection is because they don't have a model range, so their unit selection only exists in theory. The only kind of attention they've ever gotten is as dinosaur riders, which starts out pretty diverse - all the lizardmen riding beasts (cold ones, stegadons, carnosaus, terradons) are obvious - and they'd obviously have a range of appropriately themed infantry options too. The scope is endless.


The question is.. why a new codex.

Just go plunder GW's Lizardman range if you wanna do it "Citadel-Tourney" Legal. If you stick with the Eldar Codex, Terradon's can make all kind of Shining Spear/Jetbike/Jetcouncil variants. Stegadons with heavy weapons as Wraithlords or some such. Mount more Heavy/Support Weapons on a Razordon or Saurus or whatever instead of the normal floating Eldar thing and add some slightly sleeker Lizard beast as Warwalkers. Add lots of Scouts as troops. Voila.

You can even take that to a GT.

Tokamak
16-06-2010, 15:25
Right so feral Eldar already exist? I thought I had such a good idea.

grissom2006
16-06-2010, 15:49
Really would like to see a return of Exodites into the rules.

Azazyll
16-06-2010, 15:50
They should work like the always did, and as Harlequins do now - an extra unit type. It would give eldar cavalry, and therefore provide a thirty percent increase to the number of units that have that type. Games Workshop hasn't made a variant army list book other than space marines in years. I think we have to accept that that's not happening anytime in the near future. What would be awesome, however, would be to expand the current army list to allow for more unit types. This would also solve the problem of allied armies between variants.

And personally, I would rather see an Adeptus Mechanicus army, with skitarii and electoo priests and knights, followed shortly thereafter by my beloved Genestealer Cultists. But considering that mecha has already been taken by the tau and cultists have been nearly retconned out of the game (broodlords over patriarchs), I don't see either happening in the near or even distant future.

They're more likely to make a brand new army, and that makes a lot of economic sense, rather than targetting a minority of people who already play the core the variant is based on.

aka_mythos
16-06-2010, 16:02
I'm personally puzzled as to why GW has never picked up the exodite concept and turned it into a model range, having lived in the fluff for as long as I can remember, rather than making up entirely new races from scratch like dark eldar, necrons and tau. Either the GW shareholders just don't like them, or they've done market consumer research of some sort showing that they wouldn't sell well, would be my guesses. The same goes for harlequins, who even used to have a model range and their own army list back in the day, but were then subsequently ignored and just given token attention as part of the main eldar army. The powers behind GW development truly move in mysterious ways.

When GW came up with Exodites, it was at a time when GW was trying to do more to grow the setting and army variants at a greater rate than the model range. The original idea was that they could rob their fanatsy line of models and mix and match them in to create a whole new army. This was much what they had done when chaos was first brought in alot of the first Chaos models were intended for both fantasy and 40k. If it had worked with minimal investment they'd have had a new army. It was to attract the predominantly fantasty fan base of the game over to 40k. A fantasy elf player would only need to buy a few new minis to get pulled into 40k and would inevitably become involved in other 40k armies. GW moved away from that and decided to instead focus on creating armies that were more distinctive from one another and more archetypel while trying to move away from 40k just being fantasy with guns. There was also a camp within GW that if people wanted to play this type of army they should just play fantasy.

Zweischneid
16-06-2010, 16:06
When GW came up with Exodites, it was at a time when GW was trying to do more to grow the setting and army variants at a greater rate than the model range. The original idea was that they could rob their fanatsy line of models and mix and match them in to create a whole new army. This was much what they had done when chaos was first brought in alot of the first Chaos models were intended for both fantasy and 40k. If it had worked with minimal investment they'd have had a new army. It was to attract the predominantly fantasty fan base of the game over to 40k. A fantasy elf player would only need to buy a few new minis to get pulled into 40k and would inevitably become involved in other 40k armies. GW moved away from that and decided to instead focus on creating armies that were more distinctive from one another and more archetypel while trying to move away from 40k just being fantasy with guns. There was also a camp within GW that if people wanted to play this type of army they should just play fantasy.

That, and with the 80s coming to a close the Dino Rider comics were discontinued, putting Exodite advocates inside GW on cold turkey :shifty:

Sai-Lauren
16-06-2010, 16:13
There was also a camp within GW that if people wanted to play this type of army they should just play fantasy.

And another camp who basically said "What shade of which colour of Marines shall we hype today?"

Zweischneid
16-06-2010, 16:23
And another camp who basically said "What shade of which colour of Marines shall we hype today?"

And thanks to them, GW's still around producing toys today. The same can't be said about those guys who put their bets on Dino Riders :D

Sai-Lauren
16-06-2010, 17:08
But GW weren't a one-product line company, they also had Eldar, Orks, Guard, bucket loads of WFB armies, the board games they were still producing back then and so on.

And who's to say that focussing development effort into Marines was a better idea than spreading that effort into, say, Squats, Exodites and Adeptus Mechanicus for 40k, Cathay, Nippon and Araby for WFB, more Space Hulk expansions and other board games, and maintaining the 2000AD and Dr Who licenses they had (that last one would probably be worth several fortunes today, and may even have successfully replaced LoTR - Battle of Canary Wharf or Sontarans vs Unit box sets anyone?).

Had someone come along and said "actually, these Space Marines are infringing on our copyright" (and GW does skate very close with some of their "inspirations"), they could have been in serious trouble.

aka_mythos
16-06-2010, 20:06
The decision to focus on Space Marines is because they could consistently exceed projections and make good returns on investment. The dollar (or pound) spoke. People voted with their money. While you could make the arguement that space marines are successful because GW puts so much effort into them, there was at some point where all things were equal. Bake in rogue trader, marines, ork and IG had roughly the same going for each and yet space marines sold well and GW gave the people more of what they were buying. There is somethng to salesmanship and GW could always convince us to buy new and different things other than space marine, but only to some degree that still wouldn't exceed the demand for space marines.

60% of all GW sales are space marines. Space Marines by themselves generate as more revenue than Lord of the Rings and Warhammer Fantasy combined. Even if they didn't support so many types of Space Marines it would still be a large portion of their sales because of how they fit into the game, but GW would be alot smaller, since that profits the money that pays for everything else. If SM weren't successful GW wouldn't ever had the money to do Necron or Tau. They wouldn't have been able to justify the purchase of the machinery to produce all the new plastic kits, since volume was one of the biggest driving factors.

GW's space marines, while they draw on lots of influences they don't directly rip anything off. Concepts of power armor existed for a long while before 40k. So did eugenics and superhumans. So did bionics. The concept of religious soldiers is historical. By the time you break down space marines into discriptive elements that would allow you to point to influences you are talking about archetypes. Anyone can use an archetype, by it nature its too generic to "rip off". GW space marines are just a particular combination of archetypes, that while it shares some, in no instance does it share them all with a fictional predecessor.

Let's just keep this on Exodites.

Sai-Lauren
17-06-2010, 09:58
The decision to focus on Space Marines is because they could consistently exceed projections and make good returns on investment. The dollar (or pound) spoke. People voted with their money. While you could make the arguement that space marines are successful because GW puts so much effort into them, there was at some point where all things were equal. Bake in rogue trader, marines, ork and IG had roughly the same going for each and yet space marines sold well and GW gave the people more of what they were buying. There is somethng to salesmanship and GW could always convince us to buy new and different things other than space marine, but only to some degree that still wouldn't exceed the demand for space marines.

So why until the current edition have Marines featured on the cover of every single rulebook?

Why is there an 8 foot tall statue of a Marine outside GW's HQ?

And back in Rogue Trader, the rules may have tried to give the major races equal time, but Marines were the favoured army for fluff - there was the 19 implants article, the UM chapters command structure in Chapter Approved (itself a Marine reference) - including the half-Eldar officer ;) and so on.

People voted with their money? Let's be honest, if you're after a car, and there's wall to wall Ford adverts, are you going to buy a Renault?

Second edition - wanted a Guard list? Sorry, infantry only, with a couple of lousy looking sentinels (Chimera and Leman Russ came out virtually at the end of second edition).
Eldar? Infantry and jetbikes. (Falcon was extremely late 2nd edition)
Orks? A few buggies and bikes, maybe a battlewagon if you were an old player.
Sisters and Necrons? A few infantry models late on.

Marines? Predators, Whirlwinds, Bikes, Land Speeders and Jetbikes, old RT era Land Raiders, plus you had different play options with the release of the different Marine codexes.

Gav Thorpe, Andy Chambers etc, they all came up playing RT and 2nd edition.

60% of all sales are Marines? Why aren't GW's management saying that they need to cross-sell people into other armies and even other systems, whilst still maintaining that sales volume? They seem happy to bring people in, have an initial burst of sales, then watch them leave after 18-24 months and have to start all over again with the next load, when there's a lot more money to be made if they can keep them beyond their early teens into their 20s and beyond.



Let's just keep this on Exodites.

Sorry, but we really need to look at the reasons why there hasn't been such a list already.

There's only a limited amount of time in a day - so it comes down to management to focus development time.

The question then becomes whether you focus your attentions into one area, or broaden it and cover a lot of areas in a shallow way.

One area, you run the risk that if something happens to that area, you're in trouble, but the rewards are potentially very high (LoTR - that's what basically funded all the shiny new kit that's sat around the factory floor).

Broad areas, that risk is reduced, but you might wind up spending a lot of money for very little overall return.

Remember, Black Templars were given their own codex and figures and the lucrative pre-christmas release period because they were deemed to be a popular chapter.

Seen any BT players since the codex made them a lot saner than that frankly ridiculous Armageddon list?

All that development time, for such little reward.

The following Christmas, it was Eldar, and various assurances that they were always planned for that release slot, honest. ;)

Could they have done Exodites, or Adeptus Mechanicus, or brought Orks forward, or something else into that slot and made their sales?

The way to really focus development is via customer feedback - sitting down and just asking people what they want.

Aside from someone's thread on here or Dakka or wherever else you browse, have you ever been asked which armies from the background you'd like to see in 40k? Even if it's just an in-store questionaire with "rate these 10 armies from 1-10 (with 1 being the lowest) in the order in which you would like to see them be released".

I never have.

aka_mythos
17-06-2010, 11:32
Why is there an 8 foot tall statue of a Marine outside GW's HQ?
Because its made so much money and is immediately identifiable. It looks cool.



And back in Rogue Trader, the rules may have tried to give the major races equal time, but Marines were the favoured army for fluff - there was the 19 implants article, the UM chapters command structure in Chapter Approved (itself a Marine reference) - including the half-Eldar officer ;) and so on. When you look at all the races that were out at Rogue Trader they were all carried over from fantasy except Space Marines. The other stuff didn't have to be explained.



People voted with their money? Let's be honest, if you're after a car, and there's wall to wall Ford adverts, are you going to buy a Renault? I own two fords, but yes I do sincerely believe people spend money on things they want.



60% of all sales are Marines? Why aren't GW's management saying that they need to cross-sell people into other armies and even other systems, whilst still maintaining that sales volume? They seem happy to bring people in, have an initial burst of sales, then watch them leave after 18-24 months and have to start all over again with the next load, when there's a lot more money to be made if they can keep them beyond their early teens into their 20s and beyond. Preaching to the choir. Been playing since RT and since then I've seen tons of people go through that turn-stall.

The fact is to many people the hobby looks like alot more fun then it actually ends up being for them.



Remember, Black Templars were given their own codex and figures and the lucrative pre-christmas release period because they were deemed to be a popular chapter.

Seen any BT players since the codex made them a lot saner than that frankly ridiculous Armageddon list?

All that development time, for such little reward.
I've seen as many Black Templars as Space Wolves and Blood Angels.
The fact is people tend to play the army their working and not necessarily the one they finished 4 years ago that suffering from the power creep of other codices.



The way to really focus development is via customer feedback - sitting down and just asking people what they want. The problem is that GW has gotten too big for any individual to get through, everyone else drowning each other out. While you could say "the internet solves all!" In every instance its a vocal minority that tend to come accross. They're also too big to react quickly, even when something is concieved of as a problem it takes them 2 years to turn it around. Customer feedback isn't always going to fit into long term plans either.



Aside from someone's thread on here or Dakka or wherever else you browse, have you ever been asked which armies from the background you'd like to see in 40k? Even if it's just an in-store questionaire with "rate these 10 armies from 1-10 (with 1 being the lowest) in the order in which you would like to see them be released".

I never have. I've never been asked that by any company. Why should I expect as much or more from GW?

Zweischneid
17-06-2010, 11:42
Preaching to the choir. Been playing since RT and since then I've seen tons of people go through that turn-stall.

The fact is to many people the hobby looks like alot more fun then it actually ends up being for them.


I don't see that as a problem. All hobbys are on a limit. People play golf for 5 or 6 years and give it up again. People are ravenous about a PC-games for a few months and ditch it afterwards. People enjoy scuba-diving for a summer and never go back to it. If you're selling products for leisure-time, expect people to move on (and maybe even come back again after a few years).

Why are the only apparently legitimate 40k fans the nutters that haven't left it for 20 years?

Spending a only a few years or even only a few months in the hobby is perfectly normal consumer behaviour. It's no indication of the quality of GW's game or products.

Bunnahabhain
17-06-2010, 12:56
No, but the people at mixed gaming clubs switching to other games, and giving bad reviews of GW stuff, substantially due to GWs poor rules and abysmal rules support is.

These are not people giving up on war-gaming, they are giving up on GW...

Sai-Lauren
17-06-2010, 13:33
Because its made so much money and is immediately identifiable. It looks cool.

Do you know what Nottingham's taxi drivers call GW's HQ? The Reichstag.

And it may look cool in some people's eyes (or architectural bling to others), but if it's influencing the development staff to only think in certain ways (Astartes and only Astartes), then it shouldn't be there.



When you look at all the races that were out at Rogue Trader they were all carried over from fantasy except Space Marines. The other stuff didn't have to be explained.

Actually, they did. They kept certain traits from WFB, but took them off in other directions.

Eldar weren't just Space Elves in their first incarnation, and moved even further away when the Aspect Warriors appeared.



I own two fords, but yes I do sincerely believe people spend money on things they want.

Ok, so why did you buy Fords, and not another manufacturers cars?

When done right, advertising is the way to make people want what you're selling.



The problem is that GW has gotten too big for any individual to get through, everyone else drowning each other out. While you could say "the internet solves all!" In every instance its a vocal minority that tend to come accross. They're also too big to react quickly, even when something is concieved of as a problem it takes them 2 years to turn it around. Customer feedback isn't always going to fit into long term plans either.

I'm not actually talking about the individual - although carefully selected focus groups have been proven to help companies far larger than GW (and user/customer personaes is used as a development tool to help people identify with the way customers interact with their business).

Why do you think the Magic the Gathering team make reference to Timmy, Johnny and Spike, and the head developer (Mark Rosewater) reads every single email he gets - even the negative ones?

But say your local GW shop gives out a questionaire, which you then fill in and hand back. They all go up to head office, and get collated to influence which the next army will be.

Or even a little pop-up dialogue on the website - 10 options, a couple of clicks to get rid of it.

And if it takes GW two years to be able to respond to problems, they've got a critical issue that needs sorting right there. More likely they run on two year development plans.



I've never been asked that by any company. Why should I expect as much or more from GW?
Use a supermarket scan-and-pay system or a loyalty card? You're influencing their decisions without even knowing it.

But for some examples:
I've seen certain websites stick up pop-ups asking for that kind of feedback (The Register for one).

Hasslefree, Heresy and so on actively solicit feedback for new lines, new models and so on.

And the guy who runs the tour company I take my annual holiday with has admitted that he uses me as a sounding board for where to go (and I doubt I'm the only one he talks to about that). :)

GW aren't a one-man band though - they have an entire marketing department, but it seems like all they've ever really done in terms of customer analysis is look at the sales figures and say "oh, we sell a lot of Marines, go make more".

Possibly the only time they've tried to do something different was the Tau as an attempt to break into Japan.

But GW don't advertise as such, they rely on word of mouth. So, rather than being this aloof corporate monolith with slightly geeky 20-somethings in their stores as the local face of the company, just think how much people would improve their attitude towards them if they said "Hey, remember that survey for new armies we did last year? Well, the winner was the Adeptus Mechanicus, and they'll be released in three months time".

"And by the way, Squats came fourth, even though they weren't on that list, so we're working on them for next year".

Then all they need to do is have the filters in place to make sure that they pick the nuggets of information out of the mire of feedback. ;)


I don't see that as a problem. All hobbys are on a limit. People play golf for 5 or 6 years and give it up again. People are ravenous about a PC-games for a few months and ditch it afterwards. People enjoy scuba-diving for a summer and never go back to it. If you're selling products for leisure-time, expect people to move on (and maybe even come back again after a few years).

Why are the only apparently legitimate 40k fans the nutters that haven't left it for 20 years?

Spending a only a few years or even only a few months in the hobby is perfectly normal consumer behaviour. It's no indication of the quality of GW's game or products.

Well, computer games have a shelf-life - if you complete it, chances are you're not going to play it again for a while, if at all.

But it is pefectly normal consumer behaviour, yes - it's called Churn.

However, every new customer you have to recruit to replace an existing customer costs you many times what that existing customer costs to retain - and a retained customer that you can make happy will spend more with you.

And GW doesn't really have customer churn - it has customer haemorraging. Most normal companies look at 10% churn/year as a bad thing, GW's must be up at 50-60%, if not higher.

It's not about 40k as a hobby, it's about GW as a business - and those 20 year veterans (or "nutters" if you like :)) are the kind of customers that all normal companies aspire to have.

Wishing
22-06-2010, 14:15
The question is.. why a new codex.

Just go plunder GW's Lizardman range if you wanna do it "Citadel-Tourney" Legal. If you stick with the Eldar Codex, Terradon's can make all kind of Shining Spear/Jetbike/Jetcouncil variants. Stegadons with heavy weapons as Wraithlords or some such. Mount more Heavy/Support Weapons on a Razordon or Saurus or whatever instead of the normal floating Eldar thing and add some slightly sleeker Lizard beast as Warwalkers. Add lots of Scouts as troops. Voila.

You can even take that to a GT.

All true, though you could say that about any army other than marines. If the argument is "there is no need for a codex due to counts-as potential and a fantasy model range", then we would only need one codex - marines - and every other race could just be marines with various fantasy heads and counts-as rules.

I actually enjoy kitbashing models and doing what you describe to be honest, I just also like seeing new codexes and model releases for model concepts I like at the same time.



When GW came up with Exodites, it was at a time when GW was trying to do more to grow the setting and army variants at a greater rate than the model range. The original idea was that they could rob their fanatsy line of models and mix and match them in to create a whole new army. This was much what they had done when chaos was first brought in alot of the first Chaos models were intended for both fantasy and 40k. If it had worked with minimal investment they'd have had a new army. It was to attract the predominantly fantasty fan base of the game over to 40k. A fantasy elf player would only need to buy a few new minis to get pulled into 40k and would inevitably become involved in other 40k armies. GW moved away from that and decided to instead focus on creating armies that were more distinctive from one another and more archetypel while trying to move away from 40k just being fantasy with guns. There was also a camp within GW that if people wanted to play this type of army they should just play fantasy.

This is a good explanation, thanks. Interestingly, exodites hail from before there was a lizardman model range so back then there was no potential for reusing things like stegadons and terradons since they didn't exist, but I guess there is a wood elf connection too.

It doesn't explain the other big 40k army that exists in the background but not in the game, adeptus mechanicus, since that has no fantasy parralel, but since they do find their way into other armies as support models I can understand the reluctance to codicise them more. What's so striking about exodites is that they exist only in the fluff and have no 40k models of any kind that I know of.

Wishing
23-06-2010, 14:33
When GW came up with Exodites, it was at a time when GW was trying to do more to grow the setting and army variants at a greater rate than the model range. The original idea was that they could rob their fanatsy line of models and mix and match them in to create a whole new army. This was much what they had done when chaos was first brought in alot of the first Chaos models were intended for both fantasy and 40k. If it had worked with minimal investment they'd have had a new army. It was to attract the predominantly fantasty fan base of the game over to 40k. A fantasy elf player would only need to buy a few new minis to get pulled into 40k and would inevitably become involved in other 40k armies. GW moved away from that and decided to instead focus on creating armies that were more distinctive from one another and more archetypel while trying to move away from 40k just being fantasy with guns. There was also a camp within GW that if people wanted to play this type of army they should just play fantasy.

Just to comment on this again - while it seems to make sense, and some of the newer races (notably Tau), have been original non-fantasy creations, there are some element contradicting the idea that the 40k designers have moved entirely away from the Fantasy in Space vision. Mainly I'm thinking of Dark Eldar, who are clearly a direct parralel to fantasy dark elves, to the point of even having two almost identical unit types (wytches and witch elves). Since Dark Eldar are a 'new' 40k army, and were introduced with much enthusiasm, even having them as the evil half of the boxed set filled with plastic marines and DE warriors, there must still be forces within GW who think that Fantasy in Space is a great idea. And what about Daemons - an entire model range that can be used unchanged in both games, recently getting their own 40k codex?

I guess you can divide the 40k concepts quite readily into groups depending on how directly they were lifted from fantasy:

Not at all: Imperium, Tyranids, Tau
Totally: Orks, Eldar/DE, Abhumans (squats, ogryn, etc.), Daemons
Partially: Chaos, Necrons (chaos being a fantasy concept applied to 40k marines, and necrons being inspired by tomb kings but still quite different)

To my mind, although Exodites would be quite heavily lifted from fantasy, they would be less WHFB-seeming than either Dark Eldar or Daemons, in my opinon... so I don't buy pressure from an "anti-WHFB-in-40k" lobby as the defining reason we've never seen them. But maybe there's just an "anti-dino-riders" lobby as was suggested earlier...