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TheDireAvenger
15-06-2010, 21:04
I've recently started my first WHFB army with Lizardmen and got a full boxes of Saurus.

Since apparently these will become the cream of Lizardmen armies in 8th edition now that troops are the king, I was wondering if I should glue on Hand Weapons or Spears? I cannot magnetize ALL of them due to simply the sheer number of Saurus I would field and that's a lot of magnets and a lot of time for 50 - 70 Saurus.

I know the spears were a clear choice in 7th for Lizardmen due to the extra attacks but they get less attacks now in 8th. So are Hand weapons finally better? I honestly prefer the look of the Hand Weapons, so I'm wondering if they are as equal to spear or better now.

kaintxu
15-06-2010, 22:05
I think its time to go for the hw/sh instead of spears.

For spears to be worth it you need 4 ranks at least, which is 20 o 24 guys. Why?

If you go with 3 ranks (18 guys) you are gonna be going last, and will get some wounds before you attack, so those kill guys have no replacement this no attacks :S

Also, being only 1 attack per spear guy, on a 6 frontage will mean 6 attacks, 3 hit, 1.5 - 2 wounds, which deppending who, they might save, so 1 wound.

The 6 ward save, against tough unit making you over 6 wounds its gonna save you 1 guy on average, so its basically same CR but 1 points less per guy

Malorian
15-06-2010, 22:41
In an evolving game where you need to do more damage to kill off horde units to stop them from being stubborn, more attacks is the way to go.

My vote is for spears.

madden
15-06-2010, 22:46
It's a specil rule that saurus get full attacks for second rank( I think book not on me ) if it is I'm sure I read in the new one that army book specil rules trump the big book if so go spears and they still kick a&@ as everything is inititive order so more returns the better.

Malorian
15-06-2010, 22:52
It's a specil rule that saurus get full attacks for second rank( I think book not on me ) if it is I'm sure I read in the new one that army book specil rules trump the big book if so go spears and they still kick a&@ as everything is inititive order so more returns the better.

Unfortunately it's the other way around.

In the last LM book is was a rule (predatory fighter) that the second rank only got 1 attack while the rest fo the world got full.

In the current LM book that special rule was removed so they attacked with 2.

So now with this change they (but at least along with everyone else) will be back to 1.

kaintxu
16-06-2010, 00:38
In an evolving game where you need to do more damage to kill off horde units to stop them from being stubborn, more attacks is the way to go.

My vote is for spears.

Yep malorian, but that extra wound its just 1, if it was more, then i would be ok, its costing you 18 of your current 18 saurus, plus another rank of saurus to make spears worth, plus giving them the spear so

6 * 12 + 18 = 90 points for 1 more kill not worth it

Glen_Savet
16-06-2010, 00:48
I have ~40 saurus with spears, and ~40 without personally. Mix and match to your needs/desires mate. Even if you do decide to field nothing but spear saurus, use the hw/s saurus as filler behind the first couple ranks to get larger units.

Vsurma
16-06-2010, 13:57
http://heelanhammer.com/

Podcast on the new book.

27.30 they mention spears on saurus.

If it works as the guy says, that the 2nd rank gets full attacks (his interpretation of his memory of the rule) then yea, spears!

If not I take HW/S.

willowdark
16-06-2010, 14:21
Remember, HW/sh doesn't pad your AS anymore. Now, the difference between a +1 to AS and a 6+ Ward might be an acedemic distinction, but it's worth being aware of. And considering the fact that you'll generally want that third rank to pad your losses in protracted combats, I'd say spears is the way to go.

If you take 2 ranked Saurus units, you'll start loosing attacks as soon as you start taking casualties, regardless of how you're equiped. But, if you take 3 Ranks, and with I1 I'd say that's a good idea, the difference is starting with 10 or 12 supportive attacks and loosing them one at a time, or starting with 5 or 6 supportive attacks and not loosing any until the last rank is dead.

Personally, I'd rather start big and loose slow than start small and loose big after the first turn. If you take 3 or more ranks, which you should, you simply have more attacks without suffering a loss to armour save.

theorox
16-06-2010, 14:23
I say, dont start gluing arms until you have the rulebook and LM errata in your hand.

Theo :chrome:

Malorian
16-06-2010, 14:58
Yep malorian, but that extra wound its just 1, if it was more, then i would be ok, its costing you 18 of your current 18 saurus, plus another rank of saurus to make spears worth, plus giving them the spear so

6 * 12 + 18 = 90 points for 1 more kill not worth it

My analysis of 8th says that everything will be getting bigger. We're not just talking about units of 30, we're talking 60 or even 120.

If saurus are to stand up to these hordes they need to be bigger too, and as long as you are going big there is no reason not to give spears.

Voss
16-06-2010, 15:06
http://heelanhammer.com/

Podcast on the new book.

27.30 they mention spears on saurus.

If it works as the guy says, that the 2nd rank gets full attacks (his interpretation of his memory of the rule) then yea, spears!

If not I take HW/S.


He's wrong. Supporting ranks get one attack, ever, unless they are monstrous infantry (ogres, minotaurs). The actual text is very clear.

willowdark
16-06-2010, 15:18
My analysis of 8th says that everything will be getting bigger. We're not just talking about units of 30, we're talking 60 or even 120.

If saurus are to stand up to these hordes they need to be bigger too, and as long as you are going big there is no reason not to give spears.

Except that if people are building 60 and 120-man units then there will be less of them on the board, meaning more likelyhood of flanking them with multiple units. That's why I think MSU will endure as a tactic, at least for LM Saurus. Their high T and AS, combined with Strength and multiple attacks will make units of 18 very practical and effective in 8th.

Though, since 18 is bigger than the standard 12 for MSU, I do agree that Saurus will have to come in bigger units, hence my above analysis. All in all I think 18 in 6x3 formation with Spears will be the best way to run Saurus, possibly with command.

And as I said, the extra rank will almost be manditory for protracted combats to pad the losses, so the extra rank does more than just provide kills.

Malorian
16-06-2010, 16:09
Except that if people are building 60 and 120-man units then there will be less of them on the board, meaning more likelyhood of flanking them with multiple units. That's why I think MSU will endure as a tactic, at least for LM Saurus. Their high T and AS, combined with Strength and multiple attacks will make units of 18 very practical and effective in 8th.

The idea of flanking is not that simple.

You can't bait/redirect like you used to, and the army with the hordes just uses a board edge to protect one flank and then swing around.

willowdark
16-06-2010, 16:17
Time and practice will tell. The less units you have the easier it is to flank, I haven't seen anything in the rumours that changes that principle. Flanking will break ranks and reduce total attacks, which will play into the hands of the Saurus player handsomely.

Vsurma
16-06-2010, 16:27
Just going horde won't work, if I see a huge horde unit, I will hit it with 2*3 kroxigors, maybe buff the unit with a spell if I can. I have T4 and 4+ save against their attacks, S6 so they get little in the way of armour saves. should get about 6-7 wounds in with the stomp attacks, add charge for 7-8 cr and I am doing pretty good vs their 4 static cr and what they can cause back.

Also that will only be half the frontage of the enemy horde unit so I can throw in another unit as well.

I don't see the horde thing being too prevailent.

EndlessBug
16-06-2010, 16:49
appart from the stubborn rule and definate BSB, they'll grind the krox down. T4 4+ save isn't THAT good.

24 - 30 units of saurus Warriors with spears however.

25 attacks - 12.5 hits - 8.3 wounds - 7 (past armour) - 6 (past parry)

6 kills per turn should trump the opponents.

Hawkkf
16-06-2010, 17:13
One thing about spears is that they are still only useful when charged. Even saurus with I1 will want to charge sometimes. On the charge spears are useless and the extra models and a 6+ save are much better. Also theres a rule that states if you have a weapon other than a hand weapon you have to use it.. so no tactically choosing.

As a side note, having to use a halberd over HW&S might be the last nail in the coffin for TG as I cant imagine them surviving any better than a regular saurus warrior for a greater cost.

willowdark
16-06-2010, 17:36
Wait! You never actually gave a reason why they'd want to charge.

You'd certainly have to charge to get into the flank, so that's valid, but even then you still get the same second rank attack that you'd get with HW. But since you should assume the fight will last more than one turn I'd rather have the spear so I can settle in for the long fight.

Bac5665
16-06-2010, 17:39
HW+S, because they cost less.

Spears are better but not in a way that's worth a point a model. In 8E, 18 saurus with spears are worse than 12 7E saurus with spears. That worries me. So if spears are getting worse in 8E and still cost more, than HW+S, I'm gonna take the HW+S. I'm ok with hw+S being worse than spears, as long as its by less than one point a model.

In 8E, HW+S sucks. But so does having to pay 1 point a saurus, AND take 6 MORE just to get back to where they were before. I'll take the cheeper of two sucky options every time.

Glen_Savet
16-06-2010, 17:45
He's wrong. Supporting ranks get one attack, ever, unless they are monstrous infantry (ogres, minotaurs). The actual text is very clear.

That's just it, he was saying was that the 2nd rank with spears is a Fighting Rank, not a Supporting Rank while the third rank was a Supporting Rank. Semantic difference perhaps? Or it could very well be a rules difference.

willowdark
16-06-2010, 17:47
That's certainly valid, but the longer you play 8th, and the further away you get from 7th, I think you'll start to prefer Spears regardless of the points.

Hell! at 12 pts/model Saurus are still a lot better than other 12 pt infantry, like Eternal Guard or Executioners.

Vsurma
16-06-2010, 17:57
I think it kind of depends on your unit size, once you start going to 24+ the spears start to look better, but at smaller unit sizes the HW/S will prevail.

I think it depends a lot on what your running. That and how the rule works.

Voss
16-06-2010, 18:50
That's just it, he was saying was that the 2nd rank with spears is a Fighting Rank, not a Supporting Rank while the third rank was a Supporting Rank. Semantic difference perhaps? Or it could very well be a rules difference.

Fight in additional ranks (which is what spears have) seemed clear to me as an additional supporting rank. I can double check when I have another look tomorrow, but it was something I specifically looked at yesterday and it seemed clear with the terminology, and reinforced by references to other parts of the rules.

Hawkkf
16-06-2010, 18:59
Voss is right.
Fighting in extra ranks is its own rule now, as was unfortunately pointed out to me. It simply states that when not charging you get an extra rank of supportive attacks, NOT attacking with full attacks from the second rank. The wording may be more specific it was read to me and I didn't eyeball it myself.

And as for when we would want to charge:

1) When facing things that will get impact hits against you if you don't charge.
2) If you manage to get something like a dragon in your sites and its better to attack it than let it fly behind you and rear charge you in a couple of turns
3) When facing a gun line where combat is always safer
4) When you have a flanking charge to charge alongside

There are numerous other reasons to charge and in those cases the survivability of hw&s over 6 or so extra attacks (and the saved points for more saurus) seem to be more advantageous.
Besides who wants to sit back and wait to be charged all the time?

TheRaven
16-06-2010, 22:10
I think I've finally understood the Saurus and Spears issue, and from what I've seen it looks like they will get 2 attacks in the second rank.

The problem is that the forums/rumours are getting it backwards. The general thought was that models fight in the second rank with 1 attack and THEN spears add a third rank. The rule book has it the other way around, spears allow a unit to "Attack with" an extra rank (Note the words, it's standard attacks) and THEN the "Support whatever it's called rule" allows an extra rank to attack with 1 attack each in addition to what it would normally attack with. So first you do the first rank's "Attacks" then the second rank for spears does its' "Attacks" then a special rule kicks in that allows 1 attack per model for an extra rank.

The wording of the rules also states that the Support Attacks come from models "Behind the ones fighting" in which case the models fighting would be the first 2 ranks, and the support attack come from the third rank.

From that understanding it looks like spears it is!

kaintxu
16-06-2010, 22:33
Remember, HW/sh doesn't pad your AS anymore. Now, the difference between a +1 to AS and a 6+ Ward might be an acedemic distinction, but it's worth being aware of. And considering the fact that you'll generally want that third rank to pad your losses in protracted combats, I'd say spears is the way to go.

If you take 2 ranked Saurus units, you'll start loosing attacks as soon as you start taking casualties, regardless of how you're equiped. But, if you take 3 Ranks, and with I1 I'd say that's a good idea, the difference is starting with 10 or 12 supportive attacks and loosing them one at a time, or starting with 5 or 6 supportive attacks and not loosing any until the last rank is dead.

Personally, I'd rather start big and loose slow than start small and loose big after the first turn. If you take 3 or more ranks, which you should, you simply have more attacks without suffering a loss to armour save.

You cant go with 6*3 units with spears man, you are I1 so you are going to loose guys before you attack thus spears are a waster, for spears to be worth it you need at least 4 ranks to get 6 wound before loosing attacks.

3 ranks will be for hw/s wo you have to take 6 wounds before lossing attacks


My analysis of 8th says that everything will be getting bigger. We're not just talking about units of 30, we're talking 60 or even 120.

If saurus are to stand up to these hordes they need to be bigger too, and as long as you are going big there is no reason not to give spears.

Malorian 60 biug saurus with spears? 720 on a units? i dont think so so I think 24-30 big units will be its.

No one will take 120 big units, 50-60 for horde on cheap things such as goblins, orcs, skavens its ok but not for units over 10 points a piece.


I think it kind of depends on your unit size, once you start going to 24+ the spears start to look better, but at smaller unit sizes the HW/S will prevail.

I think it depends a lot on what your running. That and how the rule works.

Totally agree


I think I've finally understood the Saurus and Spears issue, and from what I've seen it looks like they will get 2 attacks in the second rank.

The problem is that the forums/rumours are getting it backwards. The general thought was that models fight in the second rank with 1 attack and THEN spears add a third rank. The rule book has it the other way around, spears allow a unit to "Attack with" an extra rank (Note the words, it's standard attacks) and THEN the "Support whatever it's called rule" allows an extra rank to attack with 1 attack each in addition to what it would normally attack with. So first you do the first rank's "Attacks" then the second rank for spears does its' "Attacks" then a special rule kicks in that allows 1 attack per model for an extra rank.

The wording of the rules also states that the Support Attacks come from models "Behind the ones fighting" in which case the models fighting would be the first 2 ranks, and the support attack come from the third rank.

From that understanding it looks like spears it is!

wow thats diferent to what everybody says, which im inclined to believe the general rumor rather than your interpretation. Anyway, if your right, then wellcome be thy spears

Glen_Savet
16-06-2010, 22:47
I think I've finally understood the Saurus and Spears issue, and from what I've seen it looks like they will get 2 attacks in the second rank.

The problem is that the forums/rumours are getting it backwards. The general thought was that models fight in the second rank with 1 attack and THEN spears add a third rank. The rule book has it the other way around, spears allow a unit to "Attack with" an extra rank (Note the words, it's standard attacks) and THEN the "Support whatever it's called rule" allows an extra rank to attack with 1 attack each in addition to what it would normally attack with. So first you do the first rank's "Attacks" then the second rank for spears does its' "Attacks" then a special rule kicks in that allows 1 attack per model for an extra rank.

The wording of the rules also states that the Support Attacks come from models "Behind the ones fighting" in which case the models fighting would be the first 2 ranks, and the support attack come from the third rank.

From that understanding it looks like spears it is!

That is what I believe Dan Heelan was saying, and what I was trying to say earlier. I don't know one way or another if that is correct or not, but if it is...well, I'm glad I have 50 spear saurus.

Kayosiv
17-06-2010, 10:44
Heck from what I was told, Saurus with spears get to fight in 3 ranks all using 2 attacks each. I need to get that book in front of me, not sure who the heck I should believe.