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woodfin
15-06-2010, 23:36
I say Tau or Eldar but that just me.

GabrielEvander
15-06-2010, 23:41
Tyranids....not evil just hungry!

Blink
15-06-2010, 23:43
Tau have good intentions and are seemingly the most reasonable.

It's hard to call Tyranid evil any more than a lion is evil simply for hunting to eat and survive.

woodfin
15-06-2010, 23:43
Armies that can think for themselves anyway....

MadCowCrazy
15-06-2010, 23:54
Id say Tyranids because they dont have an agenda, they dont destroy worlds out of hate or because they want to kill life forms. They do it because its a part of their design, it would be the same to tell anyone to stop eating until they die if you were to say tyranids could chose not to destroy whole worlds.
Heck, in an audio book a wounded tyranid hive ship even embraced a space marine, giving him countless millenniums worth of genetic understanding. An act of desperation or natural instinct to protect itself.

Of the more sentient races Id say Tau, simply because Tau are one of the few races who would accept any surrender from an enemy. I have not read or heard from anywhere that tau have or would kill prisoners of war. Im pretty sure all the other races would. Heck the SoB I play would accept an enemy surrendering but they would purge all the POW in holy flame because they would deem then unredeemable.
Tau would also consider allying with pretty much anyone, Ive never heard of them turning down a beneficial alliance.

RobPro
15-06-2010, 23:56
Necrons are beyond morality.

Ozendorph
15-06-2010, 23:57
Orks, easy. Not an evil bone in their bodies...just a bunch of rowdy lads out for a bit of fun.

Sunfang
15-06-2010, 23:58
Orks, easy. Not an evil bone in their bodies...just a bunch of rowdy lads out for a bit of fun.

this...they never mean for anyone to get "hurt."

woodfin
16-06-2010, 00:00
The Orks have slaves and eat them....

Ozendorph
16-06-2010, 00:05
They're not slaves, they are toadies. Big difference.

And keep in mind - they eat them, but they also make them. Constantly. Cycle of life and all that.

bigcheese76
16-06-2010, 00:05
Tau- The fight for the greater good, whats not good about that? Oh yes, we have the Emperor to follow, but thats just my view.

The Inevitable One
16-06-2010, 00:08
I don't think there is such thing as the "least" evil, it just depends on how you perceive things. Tau and Eldar seem to be the best examples of being the "least" evil, while Chaos and the Imperium seem to be the "most" evil. Anything in between is relatively neutral. Dark Eldar perform rituals to help them escape Slaneesh's wrath, Orks like fighting for the sake of it, Tyranids eat to survive, and Necrons were tricked into being slaves.

Tyranids, just like any other creature need to feed to survive. Is this evil? No, but when under the influence of the Hive Mind it begins to raise questions. Why do they need a Hive Mind? Without the Hive Mind they revert back to their genetically instinctive behavior of feeding and self-preservation. Good thing right? Yes, because if they reverted back to self-preservation and instinctive feeding behaviors they would have never left their planet of origin or at the very least never left a sector of clustered planets. So in a way yes they are evil, but not as evil as the person holding the chain on them (Hive Mind).

Wolf Lord Balrog
16-06-2010, 00:08
Tau are the 'least evil' easily.

I don't buy the 'Tyranids as a blameless Force-of-Nature' argument. There are sentient 'Nids in the swarm, therefore the Hive Mind itself must be sentient. Consuming whole galaxies of other lifeforms to grow your biomass, rather than just settling down to homeostasis on a small cluster of planets, or even just one galaxy, is clearly evil in my book.

Edit: Ninja'd on the 'Nids explanation by The Inevitable One. :)

Grenzstein
16-06-2010, 00:19
The hive mind is evil.

The Tau are shady bastards, with hints of brain-washing in their fluff, and they assassinate those amongst them that defy the "greater good". Read the "Last Chancers" omnibus, you'll come to see that they're not the smiley-faced underdogs people assume they are.

Eldar are willing to see millions of humans die in place of losing a thousand of their own kind. That doesn't strike me as noble.

I guess what I'm saying is that nobody is really a "good guy". This is the GRIMDARK of 40K after all.

I would probably say Orkz; just because they're so simple. Day iz juss lookin' fer da gud fite.

Souleater
16-06-2010, 00:37
It was the Squats, actually.

And look what it got them.

Ozendorph
16-06-2010, 00:40
It was the Squats, actually.

And look what it got them.

lol, I like this answer. I'm changing my vote to Squats.

Erwos
16-06-2010, 00:41
Imperial Guard, of course. I'm a species-est!

puppetmaster24
16-06-2010, 00:47
least evil is... probably squats.

P.S. isnt there evidence of the tau having mass sterilization camps for the non-tau people that have joined the greater good.

Wolf Lord Balrog
16-06-2010, 01:39
least evil is... probably squats.

P.S. isnt there evidence of the tau having mass sterilization camps for the non-tau people that have joined the greater good.

They only sterilize resisters. The Kroot and Vespids (and even most humans that have joined up) are reproducing just fine.

@Grenzstein: That's why the question was 'least evil', not 'good guys'.

Axeman1n
16-06-2010, 02:05
Old ones. All they wanted was to make a peaceful universe. Too bad they failed.

LonelyPath
16-06-2010, 02:07
It's either IG for being the common man and just following orders or Nids for being far beyond the concept of good and evil.

IcedAnimals
16-06-2010, 02:19
I would actually say tau are one of the most evil armies. They are like the friendly neighbor who waves to you as you go to work but murdered his wife.

Mass brain washing, sterilization, assassination, and political scheming. I Don't trust that smile of theirs one bit.

For least evil I would say orks. They are the only "evil" in the game that you can laugh along with. Soccer hooligans are a rowdy bunch but not evil!

Now, Necrons as a whole are probably very much so "not evil" besides the fact that most of them have no will to be evil at all. You have to understand that 99% of their race was enslaved and are actually the victims! The C'tan are evil sure. But not the necrons.

Devil Tree
16-06-2010, 02:50
Since the term “greater good” is pretty much a byword for least evil, I suppose the Tau could qualify. Even if they kill anyone who doesn't join them, sterilize unwanted populations and appoint themselves “first among equals” over their supposed allies, can you really find anyone that's nicer (and still alive:shifty:) in 40K?

DeviantApostle
16-06-2010, 03:18
The Chaos Gods are the good guys of 40K.

Which other faction wants to empower you as an individual? Which other faction is a true Meritocracy that rewards talent with nothing less than Godhood? Who else stood up to the tyrany of the False Emperor and strives to release humanity from bondage to the Imperium?

Need more convincing? Look at the gods themselves. Tzeench is not just the Lord of Change, he counts Hope amongst his portfolio as well. Through his will, all living beings can strive towards a better tomorrow. Slaanesh offers an eternity of pleasure to all, unfettered by mortal limits. His realm is a heaven for his worshippers, especially for those who rise above the rank and file. Father Nurgle loves us all. He loves so much that he grants his followers complete immunity to disease! While I do admit that Khorne looks bad at the surface of it, it has to be pointed out that Khornites have made a lifestyle choice and should not be mocked. Warriors are a necessary part of life and some few of us make the necessary sacrifices to make the universe a safer place.

As much as it galls me to admit, however, the next least evil army is Space Wolves. Despite their blind adherence to the Imperium, the Space Wolves are known for their good deeds and honorable discourse.

woodfin
16-06-2010, 03:22
What have you been smoking I want some.

The Inevitable One
16-06-2010, 04:53
As much as it galls me to admit, however, the next least evil army is Space Wolves. Despite their blind adherence to the Imperium, the Space Wolves are known for their good deeds and honorable discourse.

Yes, I admit they are not evil but they do have misdeeds to meet their deeds. The sacking of Prospero and driving out the Thousand Sons was the worst of them all.

The Chaos Gods are known for indulgence, rage, disease, and mutation. There is nothing here that fits the portfolio of being the "least" evil (to our Human standards). But as you have stated there is a flip side to it as well. Hope, life, and so on. But that is not to say they will give it to you and if they did they would rip it out right under your feet as soon as you got it (follower or not).

DeviantApostle
16-06-2010, 06:22
But that is not to say they will give it to you and if they did they would rip it out right under your feet as soon as you got it (follower or not).

This assertion is blatently false.

The Chaos Gods never said they'd just give you everlasting life and endless power by their side in the Warp. They are indeed very up-front that you have to earn it. There is no free lunch, the Chaos Gods can't just snap their fingers and make eveything right with the universe. Neither can the Imperium's precious Emperor or the impotent Eldar pantheon or even the soulless C'Tan.

In fact, when you think about it, the Chaos Gods are responsible for empowering many of the Loyalist Space Marine chapters through the altered gene-seed of their Primarchs. Sanguinius' wings, which lovingly adorn much of the Blood Angel's heraldry, were a gift of the Chaos Gods. Russ' rage and the feral streak of his kin, also given with magnanimity by the Chaos Gods. And yet, look how the Emperor spurns his chosen, how they die of old age resisting the inevitable. Look at how the Imperium sacrifices human life for the continuance of the feeble nobility, the least of which is the daily sacrifice to the Emperor of Mankind himself!

The Chaos Gods are the ultimate transhumanists, they seek only to raise all sentient life to a higher mode of consciousness. Does an extra limb here or their make so much difference? Is not the persecution of the mutant minority a travesty of justice?

ville2109
16-06-2010, 06:30
squats, i think

solkan
16-06-2010, 06:59
The Chaos Gods are known for indulgence, rage, disease, and mutation. There is nothing here that fits the portfolio of being the "least" evil (to our Human standards). But as you have stated there is a flip side to it as well. Hope, life, and so on. But that is not to say they will give it to you and if they did they would rip it out right under your feet as soon as you got it (follower or not).

This is outright slander. The Chaos gods' followers are known for indulgence, rage, disease and so on. Of course, everyone else in the 40K universe is known for genocide, slaughter, xenophobia, millennial grudges, religious intolerance, and other wonderful things.

Imagine if someone walked out into downtown Chicago and started throwing thousands of dollars of free money into the air out of generosity and philanthropy. It isn't the philanthropists fault that people are greedy and will fight over the free money.

Wolf Lord Balrog
16-06-2010, 07:13
The Chaos Gods are the good guys of 40K.

Which other faction wants to empower you as an individual? Which other faction is a true Meritocracy that rewards talent with nothing less than Godhood? Who else stood up to the tyrany of the False Emperor and strives to release humanity from bondage to the Imperium?

Might makes right =/= Meritocracy. Equivalency fail.


Need more convincing? Look at the gods themselves. Tzeench is not just the Lord of Change, he counts Hope amongst his portfolio as well. Through his will, all living beings can strive towards a better tomorrow. Slaanesh offers an eternity of pleasure to all, unfettered by mortal limits. His realm is a heaven for his worshippers, especially for those who rise above the rank and file. Father Nurgle loves us all. He loves so much that he grants his followers complete immunity to disease! While I do admit that Khorne looks bad at the surface of it, it has to be pointed out that Khornites have made a lifestyle choice and should not be mocked. Warriors are a necessary part of life and some few of us make the necessary sacrifices to make the universe a safer place.

And there's the slight matter of the less powerful being the playthings and victims of the Chaos Gods and their followers. What do you call the opposite of a straw man again?


As much as it galls me to admit, however, the next least evil army is Space Wolves. Despite their blind adherence to the Imperium, the Space Wolves are known for their good deeds and honorable discourse.

All the fine Chaos propaganda aside, I'd go with you on that one. Aside from being fully on board with the Imperium's xenocidal policies, the Space Wolves are one of the nicer chapters, often pushing back against the extremes of the Inquisition for example. I'd buy them as the second-least-evil army, after the Tau.

Blink
16-06-2010, 08:07
Keep in mind that most if not all of the anti-Tau propaganda of brainwashing and sterilization is from the Imperium's perspective... and why wouldn't they want that to be the case? The Tau are accepting of almost anyone and everyone, and the Imperium wants to be seen as the beacon of hope for the galaxy, not some until-recently primitive xeno community.

Born Again
16-06-2010, 08:23
It was the Squats, actually.

And look what it got them.

This.

Failing that, Orks. Just out to have fun, nothing else.

BaronDG
16-06-2010, 12:05
Sisters of battle, naturally. Doing the Emperors work! Keeping the human race safe from internal and external threats! Caritas caritatis!

Tokamak
16-06-2010, 12:08
Tyranids, just like any other creature need to feed to survive. Is this evil? No

It is without population control.

Mindshred
16-06-2010, 12:25
I don't think I buy the 'orks aren't evil' argument. Sure, they're not very intelligent or organized in their evil, but it's still very real. An ork let loose in any non-ork city is going to take off on his own little murder spree, happily butchering anyinnocents and non-combatants that he might come across. He's going to have alot more fun bashing the armed guards that come after him, but he isnt going to be very picky about it.

They might get compared to soccer hooligans, but if you had a soccer team that killed its opponents on the field, lit the stadium on fire, and then all piled into BMWs and drove around town mowing people down with the machine guns they had mounted on the hood, well...it's hard not to call that evil, even if the players in question were 'just having a bit of fun.'

Heck, it's probably more evil that way; they're hurting others not because they're brainwashed by propaganda or trying to prolong their dying civilization, but simply because they think that killing people and blowing stuff up is fun.

AFnord
16-06-2010, 12:34
The old ones made those orks into what they are today. Can you blame someone for their genes?

And I would say that Slanns are less evil than most races out there.

Forgotmytea
16-06-2010, 13:17
As much as it galls me to admit, however, the next least evil army is Space Wolves. Despite their blind adherence to the Imperium, the Space Wolves are known for their good deeds and honorable discourse.
I'm afraid I have to disagree :p Apart from the obvious of potential corruption and mutation running rife and, indeed, unchecked in their entire chapter (Wulfen), there's the fact that they were easily manipulated by Horus during the Heresy to get them out of the way, and are one of the least subtle and most destructive chapters around. Their modus operandi often involves trashing entire cities to get to one man, or destroying anything in their way. They're just too unpredictable/out of control to be 'good' in any sense of the word to me.

(I did try and keep my bias as a Thousand Sons player out of the above, honest :angel: ;))

Hunger
16-06-2010, 13:17
There really are no non-evil factions in 40K. Thats what I love about it.

Tyranids and Orks are a force of nature, so not morally evil, but their actions are always destructive.

Daemon incursions fall into the above category as well - they're not consciously 'evil' as such, they just want to cause destruction - which is itself evil.

Necrons simply operate out of malice and spite on a personal level, and their race's goals will herald an even worse time of death and misery for the galaxy if they are fulfilled.

Eldar and Tau may appear to be somewhat benevolent, but they act out of selfishness - they only appear to be 'good' when their goals coincide with yours, and they will happily cause damage to others if it benefits their race.

Chaos Space Marines and Dark Eldar are the most 'honestly' evil - they wear their hearts on their sleeves, and don't try to pretend they are nice.

The Imperium is perhaps the most evil faction - whereas the other races (except Tyranids and Necrons) often have a fairly neutral disposition to the other inhabitants of the galaxy, the Imperium was founded on the credo that every other race in the galaxy is unfit to share it with Humanity, a concept so abhorrent that 51 countries of our own planet united to oppose it, causing the deaths of over 60 million real people.

Logan_uc
16-06-2010, 13:52
Tyranids and Orks, they seem to have no concept of evil so they cannot be evil.

For those who say Tau arent evil, they castrate people, you cant get more evil than that.

WH40KAj
16-06-2010, 14:11
Would you call giant ants that ran around evil? Well you can but really "Good" and "Evil" are social measures.

So really as the whole world is slanted from an Imperium perspective, i'd say everyone but the Imperium is evil. With Chaos being the worst, Tau/Orks being least evil.

My personal opinion however is the Dark Eldar, then a tie with Imperium of Man and Eldar is the most evil.
Least Evil is a tough one, Tyranids or Orks for me. Both do things that are consistent with what they want. Crumpin for Orks, Biomass for Nids. Everyone else fights/fought themselves because for nefarious reasons.

Corax
16-06-2010, 14:35
The Imperium is perhaps the most evil faction - whereas the other races (except Tyranids and Necrons) often have a fairly neutral disposition to the other inhabitants of the galaxy, the Imperium was founded on the credo that every other race in the galaxy is unfit to share it with Humanity, a concept so abhorrent that 51 countries of our own planet united to oppose it, causing the deaths of over 60 million real people.

lolwut?

What are you trying to do? Get this thread bumped to P&R? Talk about reading too much into things!

The Imperium is in a constant battle for survival against foes that would love to destroy it. In a hostile universe, survival is the only "good" and death is the only "bad"; elimination of one's rivals is the ultimate guarantor of survival. Ergo, the Imperium is guilty of nothing other than maximizing its chances of survival.

By the standards of good and evil prevalent in modern western society, you might say that all of the factions are either evil or amoral. However, I would argue that comparing the situation in the 40k universe against the moral standards of our society is not very useful. In other words, notions of good and evil are luxuries that simply don't exist in the 41st millennium.

Raven1
16-06-2010, 15:33
The Tau, I suppose they are the least evil sorta

Zweischneid
16-06-2010, 15:35
There is no evil in 40K. There is only war.

Crazy Ivan
16-06-2010, 15:53
Only the followers of the good and benificent Emperor are capable of doing good. This is not a question of whom is "least evil" (though as good is the lessest kind of evil this may actually apply), but whom is most good. And goodness can only be found by worshipping the Emperor. Therefore the Emperor is Good! He is the GOODEST!*


* And all who say different are deviant heretics who shall be burned with cleansing fire!**


** This also applies to such traitors who point out glaring grammar and spelling errors employed by the faithful. You have been warned.

the1stpip
16-06-2010, 15:56
Its a good idea to have a search, this question comes up every few weeks.

Tau are not good. Join us or we will kill you.
Eldar are not good. We will allow a human planet to die cos it saves one Eldar.

Nids and Orks are the only races to approach good, as they are amoral. They have no concept of good or evil. They do what they do because they know of no other way.

Zweischneid
16-06-2010, 16:11
Its a good idea to have a search, this question comes up every few weeks.

Tau are not good. Join us or we will kill you.
Eldar are not good. We will allow a human planet to die cos it saves one Eldar.

What then is "good", if "good" wouldn't be worth emphatic promotion of itself, even at the price of sacrifice? :angel:

Would you consider your own "side" to be "good" if your "side" would be willing to kill 10 "others" to save one of your "own"? Would you consider your "side" to be "good" if they intervene in foreigner's affairs to spread "your own idea" of a "good" society? If you answer "no" to both of those, "good" has likely never existed in human history.

All 40K does is generally use ridiculously large numbers.

Born Again
16-06-2010, 16:16
I don't think I buy the 'orks aren't evil' argument. Sure, they're not very intelligent or organized in their evil, but it's still very real. An ork let loose in any non-ork city is going to take off on his own little murder spree, happily butchering anyinnocents and non-combatants that he might come across. He's going to have alot more fun bashing the armed guards that come after him, but he isnt going to be very picky about it.

They might get compared to soccer hooligans, but if you had a soccer team that killed its opponents on the field, lit the stadium on fire, and then all piled into BMWs and drove around town mowing people down with the machine guns they had mounted on the hood, well...it's hard not to call that evil, even if the players in question were 'just having a bit of fun.'

Heck, it's probably more evil that way; they're hurting others not because they're brainwashed by propaganda or trying to prolong their dying civilization, but simply because they think that killing people and blowing stuff up is fun.

What you're describing is someone is who's a sadist or sociopath, who gets a kick out of causing destruction, they find an honest joy in it. They are, however, still aware that killing someone leaves them dead: they may just not care. Orks aren't like that. They were created by the Old Ones to fight, so fight is what they do. To them, fighting is just one big game. Getting killed is like getting "out" in dodgeball, it's not "the end" per se. In their beliefs, if they get killed, Gork (or possibly Mork) simply vomits them up in to a new body and sends them in for a second go. They have no reason to believe it's the same for anyone else, and possibly can't even comprehend anything else. As a result, it's also likely they can't comprehend humans or eldar having a fear of fighting and death, the concept is far too alien to them to ever understand. It's all just a good scrap to them, so it's not just innocent on the level of not caring for those they are fighting, they honestly don't grasp the fact that they're on an entirely different playing field with vastly different rules.

Zweischneid
16-06-2010, 16:20
What you're describing is someone is who's a sadist or sociopath, who gets a kick out of causing destruction, they find an honest joy in it. They are, however, still aware that killing someone leaves them dead: they may just not care. Orks aren't like that. They were created by the Old Ones to fight, so fight is what they do. To them, fighting is just one big game. Getting killed is like getting "out" in dodgeball, it's not "the end" per se. In their beliefs, if they get killed, Gork (or possibly Mork) simply vomits them up in to a new body and sends them in for a second go. They have no reason to believe it's the same for anyone else, and possibly can't even comprehend anything else. As a result, it's also likely they can't comprehend humans or eldar having a fear of fighting and death, the concept is far too alien to them to ever understand. It's all just a good scrap to them, so it's not just innocent on the level of not caring for those they are fighting, they honestly don't grasp the fact that they're on an entirely different playing field with vastly different rules.

So if I kill with the firm belief in a happy afterlife, if I cannot "comprehend fear", I am not "evil"?

TheSanityAssassin
16-06-2010, 16:22
To give the armies a DnD style alignment...

Imperium: Neutral Evil
Chaos: Generally Chaotic Evil..sometimes other brands of Evil
Orks: Chaotic Evil
Tyranids: Largely Netural Evil in a different way. Possibly could be considered "Neutral"
Necrons: Lawful Evil
Tau: Arguably Lawful Evil/Neutral Evil. Possibly Lawful Neutral (for all their Greater Good talk they want to build a controlled empire of their own people)
Dark Eldar: Chaotic Evil
Eldar: Neutral. Possibly Neutral to Chaotic Good, depending on the craftworld. They're willing to see millions die to have it happen, but they generally want to save the galaxy. The worst of them would descend to Neutral Evil (Biel Tan) or Chaotic Neutral (Saim-Hann)

This is just my feeling on it anyway.

Jonny_N
16-06-2010, 16:24
Would evil not be defined by ones morality?

Born Again
16-06-2010, 16:27
So if I kill with the firm belief in a happy afterlife, if I cannot "comprehend fear", I am not "evil"?

Read my post again: Orks have no "afterlife", only a second round of fighting. But, if that is what you meant, then yes you are correct. You may be reprehensible by the view of others, but you cannot honestly be called "evil" as there was no "evil" or malice in your action. We define evil as outwardly and actively malevolent, Orks are neither of this from their perception. Stop thinking like an upstanding Imperial Citizen and start thinking like an Ork, you'll get it soon enough! :p

GabrielEvander
16-06-2010, 16:28
Would evil not be defined by ones morality?

Using that idea no one and everyone is evil depending on where your standing!

DuskRaider
16-06-2010, 16:29
They might get compared to soccer hooligans, but if you had a soccer team that killed its opponents on the field, lit the stadium on fire, and then all piled into BMWs and drove around town mowing people down with the machine guns they had mounted on the hood, well...it's hard not to call that evil, even if the players in question were 'just having a bit of fun.'

Actually, I call this awesome. If this is how soccer was, I'D watch it. This made me laugh, thanks for the pick up dude.

Zweischneid
16-06-2010, 16:35
Read my post again: Orks have no "afterlife", only a second round of fighting. But, if that is what you meant, then yes you are correct. You may be reprehensible by the view of others, but you cannot honestly be called "evil" as there was no "evil" or malice in your action. We define evil as outwardly and actively malevolent, Orks are neither of this from their perception. Stop thinking like an upstanding Imperial Citizen and start thinking like an Ork, you'll get it soon enough! :p

I don't think there is "malice" in the action of the vast majority of psychopaths, mass-murderers, terrorists or war-mongerers. Most thought they have good reasons for what they do and other people just failed to see it from their point of view :evilgrin:

I mean seriously.. by that argument.. noone is evil. Just start thinking like a Khorne Berzerker or Fabius Bile, you'll get it soon enough!

TimLeeson
16-06-2010, 16:40
Squats definitly.

Skyros
16-06-2010, 16:51
Tyranids are obviously evil. They are sentient.

Tau are brainwashed creepily orwellian totalitarians who use force to implement their will all in the name of 'the greater good'. So they are in the same camp as Hitler, Napoleon, and every other dictator in history. Everyone always claims to be doing something for the greater good.

Eldar are manipulative and xenophobic, and happily make other races go to war if it suits their own ends. That's pretty obviously evil too.

I don't think there are any 'good' armies as such. They all have deep flaws. Probably your basic guardsman is the least evil because he just marches out to defend his home and gets promptly eaten by a genestealer :D Or possibly daemon hunters. Witch hunters, I think the fluff makes clear, have a "better 10 innocent men should perish rather than one heretic go free" kind of mentality.

Hunger
16-06-2010, 16:53
lolwut?

For the sake of the next generation I hope you're not a history teacher. Grammar aside, if you can't see that parallel I'm not sure why you're attempting to comment on the nature of good and evil.

Discussing the good/evil alignment of different races in 40k is discussing the politics of those races. We're not talking about the average human/eldar/tau - regular people from all races probably try their best to lead a 'good' life in line with the norms for their society. The discussion is about the nature of the different races as a whole, which is steered by their leaders. The factual example I gave was to reinforce my point that, in my opinion, the Imperium is more evil than the other factions.

Skyros
16-06-2010, 16:57
Where did you get the idea that the Imperium is the only faction that isn't willing to coexist with other races?

As far as I can tell, every race wants to eliminate all other races with only 3 possible exceptions: Eldar, Humans, Tau. And even then it's clear Tau and Humans envision themselves ruling the entire galaxy. Mass genocide/enslavement against all others is the order of the day in 40k, not the exception.

Skyros
16-06-2010, 17:01
Also if the standard is "You can't be evil unless you are consciously performing actions you know to be evil" then absolutely no one in 40k is evil with the exceptions of Chaos demons and Chaos space marines.

That's a pretty silly standard though.

If I burn a family in their home, that's evil. It doesn't matter if I was drunk or something and didn't know I was doing it. Nor does it matter if my passion in life is burning families in homes and I do it because I enjoy it, not because I'm "trying" to be evil.

Perfect Organism
16-06-2010, 17:01
Orks are totally evil. They understand fear, pain and suffering and take pleasure in causing it in others.

Orks do apparently fear their own deaths since they will flee from danger and they obviously understand that other races don't want to be killed, since they manipulate others by threatening them. They also understand fear and suffering in much the same way. They clearly go out of their way to inflict pain on others for thier own amusement.

Born Again
16-06-2010, 17:14
I don't think there is "malice" in the action of the vast majority of psychopaths, mass-murderers, terrorists or war-mongerers. Most thought they have good reasons for what they do and other people just failed to see it from their point of view :evilgrin:

I mean seriously.. by that argument.. noone is evil. Just start thinking like a Khorne Berzerker or Fabius Bile, you'll get it soon enough!

Yes, in a way "evil" is subjective, but it's still not the point I'm getting at. A Khorne Berzerker is aware of his killing. He feels no remorse or guilt as the people he kills are worthless, nothing less than meat to be offered up to the Blood God, mightiest of all the Powers. He knows that in time he, too, will be laid down as a sacrifice.

Fabius Bile sees people as nothing more than a canvas. He uses them to create his works and cares nothing for pain it may inflict because his mind is bent towards it, pain itself interests him and the workings of the human body and genetics are uppermost in his mind. If some worthless innocents must be sacrificed to achieve his ends, it doesn't bother him in the slightest.

An ork is different to both of these. To an ork, life is like a game of paintball, nothing else. Does it make you evil when you shoot someone in paintball (intentional groin shots excluded :evilgrin:)?

Necron Lord Omega
16-06-2010, 17:23
Necrons because all we want is an ordered peaceful no warp Galaxy, there thats not so bad is it.

massey
16-06-2010, 17:29
My D&D alignment view on it:

The Imperium: Lawful neutral with lawful evil tendencies. There are, of course, humans within the Imperium that will fit any alignment, even lawful good. But the Imperium as a whole exists solely to preserve itself. Killing aliens and heretics is merely a means to the end goal of preserving the status quo. They don't torture aliens, or kill them because it's fun. They do it because 99% of alien races are inherently hostile. Of course, they're still a bunch of space nazis.

The Tau: Lawful neutral. They rank a step "above" the Imperium on the morality scale only because they don't yet realize what a terrible place the galaxy is. Give them a thousand years and a demonic incursion or two and they'll be burning heretics and sacrificing babies to the ethereals as well. They are definitely not "good". Their motivations are the exact same as the Imperium (stability, growth, control), they just haven't realized everything that entails yet. "What do you mean, demons are real?"

Eldar: Neutral with lawful tendencies. The path system is going to push them heavily towards a lawful alignment, due to its rigidity and the Eldar tendency towards obsession, but they change from path to path regularly. They are intentionally neutral so as not to become trapped on any one path. Aspect Warriors would be lawful. They're all "pro-Eldar", and that's about as much as they worry about evil and good. Note that if an Eldar found you living on a maiden world, he'd be as likely to kill your family as he would to help you relocate elsewhere. Hence, neutral.

Chaos: Chaotic evil. Do I really need to go into detail?

Dark Eldar: Chaotic evil. Yes, I know some say that they're "fighting Slaanesh in their own way", but that's a bunch of crap. These guys live life in the fast lane. They discovered that sex, drugs, and rock and roll tend to make you either burn out or look like Keith Richards. Huh. Imagine that. Here's the kicker. They found a way to cheat by sucking the souls of the innocent. Yeah. Evil.

Chaos Demons: Chaotic evil.

Necrons: Neutral evil. Yes, I know everyone expects them to be lawful because they're robots. But they're not. They are concerned only with doing evil. They want to slaughter and enslave, and that's it. They aren't concerned with following any sort of social rules, they just want to slaughter. Law and chaos does not factor into their decision-making.

Tyranids: Neutral evil. The average nid is inherently hostile to other life. Even when instinctive behavior kicks in, they seek to kill. You don't ever see a carnifex (even without Hive Mind control) laying on a rock and sunning itself. It attacks as soon as it sees something. It isn't attacking for food, it's attacking to destroy. The Hive Mind itself has been repeatedly described as sinister and evil. Yes, Virginia, the Nids are bad guys.

Orks: Chaotic Neutral with strong evil tendencies. Possibly just flat out chaotic evil. Yes, they were bred for war. Yes, they are only doing what they were made to do. But still, they butcher innocents, burn families alive, they kill or enslave everyone they meet. And they're okay with that. Orks do it simply because they think it's fun. They use flamethrowers to make people do "the burny dance". These are not good guys.

woodfin
16-06-2010, 18:10
I think we have to face that all the good races and factions are dead.

Wolf Lord Balrog
16-06-2010, 18:38
This thread keeps getting side-tracked by people arguing that someone else's choice isn't 'good'. Read the thread title and OP again. It says 'least evil', that is the discussion we are having, try to keep up.

rellen22
16-06-2010, 18:45
The tyranids are the least evil, but they are also the least good as well. In DnD terms they would be Lawful Neutral. Tyranids are not sentient (genestealer strains excepting, they are evil when not controlled), any more that a human cell (even a brain cell) is sentient.

The Hive Mind, the conglomerate intellegence of the tyranids as a whole, is as far beyond the scope of human (tau, eldar) intellegence as human intellegence is beyond that of bacterium.

Using this analogy, each planet would be just a bite of food, and the resistance faced would be nothing more than the harmfull bactirum contaminating it. They tyranid armies are nothing more than the autonomic reaction to difficult to digest food, and losing a planet or even a hive fleet is just part of the cost of eating conaminated food (ie throwing up)

So while the hive mind might be able to deal with good and evil at its own scale, at the the human scale it is nothing more than an autonomic respose to specific stimulli and it is no more CAPABLE of caring for human live than a human is for the lives of bacteria on the food it eats. Only the genestealers (the eqivalent of good bacteria) can fall into the humans scale of morality.

PS sorry for the long post, but everyone seems to overestimate the hive minds involvment in the worldly affairs of meer coporial beings (think bacteria), and i want to state my peace

The Inevitable One
16-06-2010, 18:47
This assertion is blatently false.

The Chaos Gods never said they'd just give you everlasting life and endless power by their side in the Warp. They are indeed very up-front that you have to earn it.

How so? They always promise you gifts or presents if you join them and still do when you join. The only thing is, is that they will “over-gift” you or rip it from right underneath you as I have stated. Say you would like power and you ask the Chaos Gods for it. They accept, only thing is, is that you have been given too much power and you turn into a jibbering chaos spawn that has no mind of its own, only to be controlled by the Chaos Gods themselves. Is this what they wanted? No.


This is outright slander. The Chaos gods' followers are known for indulgence, rage, disease and so on.

Slander is a statement that is false. My statement is true. The Chaos Gods are known for all the things we have talked about ranging from mutation to rage. Yes, their followers are the embodiment of this, but the Chaos Gods are the essence that dwells within. If that is not proof enough, Daemons are literally pieces of the Chaos God, just broken down in power to allow them to leave the warp where they cause disease, bloodshed, etc.

TheDireAvenger
16-06-2010, 18:58
Eldar

we are no.1 all of you are inferiors not worth our time. Bwahahaha we are the best we used to control the stars themselves!

genestealer_baldric
16-06-2010, 18:58
The tyranids are the least evil, but they are also the least good as well. In DnD terms they would be Lawful Neutral. Tyranids are not sentient (genestealer strains excepting, they are evil when not controlled), any more that a human cell (even a brain cell) is sentient.

The Hive Mind, the conglomerate intellegence of the tyranids as a whole, is as far beyond the scope of human (tau, eldar) intellegence as human intellegence is beyond that of bacterium.

Using this analogy, each planet would be just a bite of food, and the resistance faced would be nothing more than the harmfull bactirum contaminating it. They tyranid armies are nothing more than the autonomic reaction to difficult to digest food, and losing a planet or even a hive fleet is just part of the cost of eating conaminated food (ie throwing up)

So while the hive mind might be able to deal with good and evil at its own scale, at the the human scale it is nothing more than an autonomic respose to specific stimulli and it is no more CAPABLE of caring for human live than a human is for the lives of bacteria on the food it eats. Only the genestealers (the eqivalent of good bacteria) can fall into the humans scale of morality.

PS sorry for the long post, but everyone seems to overestimate the hive minds involvment in the worldly affairs of meer coporial beings (think bacteria), and i want to state my peace

i think this guy has just nailed it , thats more or less what i think as well.

necrons come a close second they are not making a decsion to be vindictive etc they are just doing what they are made for to they dont main, touture, hold grudges (at least not against non old ones)

Grenzstein
16-06-2010, 19:06
The Imperium is perhaps the most evil faction - whereas the other races (except Tyranids and Necrons) often have a fairly neutral disposition to the other inhabitants of the galaxy, the Imperium was founded on the credo that every other race in the galaxy is unfit to share it with Humanity, a concept so abhorrent that 51 countries of our own planet united to oppose it, causing the deaths of over 60 million real people.

Can you blame the Imperium?

We were the allies of many different xeno while we sat in a position of power during the Golden Age of Technology. The second the chips were down our "allies" fell upon us, killing and enslaving our kind. Humanity was betrayed when we tried to play nice, so now we're going to kill everyone that isn't like us; game on.

DeviantApostle
16-06-2010, 19:27
How so? They always promise you gifts or presents if you join them and still do when you join. The only thing is, is that they will “over-gift” you or rip it from right underneath you as I have stated. Say you would like power and you ask the Chaos Gods for it. They accept, only thing is, is that you have been given too much power and you turn into a jibbering chaos spawn that has no mind of its own, only to be controlled by the Chaos Gods themselves. Is this what they wanted? No.

That's the risk you take reaching for the golden apple. Every system of advancement has its winners and its losers. Either way, a true believer of Chaos serves the Chaos Gods and advances their cause. Some are destined to lead, others to follow. The difference is, Chaos is an equal opportunity employer. The Imperium of Man serves its nobility first and foremost, offering no chance of advancement beyond your station. The Chaos Gods exalt prince and pauper, their only measure is talent.

The Chaos Gods offer humanity evolution to a higher state of being. The rest merely offer survival... maybe... if we're lucky...

clangedinn
16-06-2010, 19:28
I am going to agree with the Chaos gods as being the least "evil" they are corrupt for sure but corruption is not evil. in the long run they are emotion or nature in its rawest form.

If by a human standard of morality I would have to say that the imperial forces are the least evil cause that is what i was raised to believe :P

Jonny_N
16-06-2010, 19:32
Using that idea no one and everyone is evil depending on where your standing!

And in there lies the justification for the most violent acts in the races of 40k!

Bigbot
16-06-2010, 19:41
Unless there turns out to be a higher purpose to the nids, then they're the least evil - they don't know any better

R3con
16-06-2010, 19:44
I haven't found a race/faction in 40k I don't think is evil. Really everyone hates everyone else.

Its a war game would you want to have it any other way? =)

The Inevitable One
16-06-2010, 19:44
That's the risk you take reaching for the golden apple. Every system of advancement has its winners and its losers. Either way, a true believer of Chaos serves the Chaos Gods and advances their cause. Some are destined to lead, others to follow. The difference is, Chaos is an equal opportunity employer. The Imperium of Man serves its nobility first and foremost, offering no chance of advancement beyond your station. The Chaos Gods exalt prince and pauper, their only measure is talent.

The Chaos Gods offer humanity evolution to a higher state of being. The rest merely offer survival... maybe... if we're lucky...

Point for you :D




Dark Eldar: Chaotic evil. Yes, I know some say that they're "fighting Slaanesh in their own way", but that's a bunch of crap. These guys live life in the fast lane. They discovered that sex, drugs, and rock and roll tend to make you either burn out or look like Keith Richards. Huh. Imagine that. Here's the kicker. They found a way to cheat by sucking the souls of the innocent. Yeah. Evil.

It is unfortunate for the victims spirits to be sucked out to replenish their youth, but their death is no where near as horrible compared to a Dark Eldar dying. Their spirit leaves their body and are consumed for all eternity by Slaanesh.

Lunatic Fringe
16-06-2010, 20:08
And in there lies the justification for the most violent acts in the races of 40k!It was either that or add a diplomacy phase to the game and you know the eldar would get enough bonuses to leave evry other army with nothing but their pants after it was over.

IGoblinego
16-06-2010, 20:47
least evil army is Marbo.

Just because hes Marbo.

BaronDG
16-06-2010, 21:43
For the sake of the next generation I hope you're not a history teacher. Grammar aside, if you can't see that parallel I'm not sure why you're attempting to comment on the nature of good and evil.

Discussing the good/evil alignment of different races in 40k is discussing the politics of those races. We're not talking about the average human/eldar/tau - regular people from all races probably try their best to lead a 'good' life in line with the norms for their society. The discussion is about the nature of the different races as a whole, which is steered by their leaders. The factual example I gave was to reinforce my point that, in my opinion, the Imperium is more evil than the other factions.

Please keep your real-world political correctness out of my hobby!:mad:

woodfin
16-06-2010, 22:26
Please keep your real-world political correctness out of my hobby!:mad:

The Republicans are the Imperium and the Tau are the Democritus.

Blink
16-06-2010, 23:02
... It seems a lot of people here are mistaking killing as outright evil. Evil should involve a malicious intent behind the killing; ie, killing someone because they are different from you.

This is why it's rather ridiculous to say Nids are "inherently evil". If hunting and killing are part of your animalistic nature, it's hard to say you are evil for that any more than it is to call a lion or another predatory animal evil.

northernmaximus
17-06-2010, 03:40
I agree with the Tyranids ... Yep just HUNGRY

Xyrex
17-06-2010, 03:47
definitely chaos daemons:evilgrin:

I mean common, all they want is bloodshed. What's wrong with that? Here's my reasoning:
Impirium: EVIL
Eleder: EVIL
Orks: EVIL
Chaos SM: EVIL
Daemons: GOOD
Tyranids: EVIL
Tau: The who???
Dark Elder EVIL

I mean they are just mere pawns controled by greater forces.
-or-
They used to be ANGELS (before they betrayed God)
-or-
They are insane. They don't know what their doing.

Bassik
17-06-2010, 08:39
Evil, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.

Imperium: Not evil. Humanities only bastion against the horrors in the galaxy.
Eldar: Not evil. Last survivors of a once mighty empire, trying to maintain existence at all costs.
Orks: Not evil. Fighting is what they where made for. It's vital for their reproduction as well.
Chaos: Not evil. Resisting and fighting a false religion while their faith is the only true one.
Daemons: Not evil. Completely unable to feel compassion or sympathy for creatures from another universe.
Tyranids: Not evil. Cattle is there to be eaten.
Tau: Not evil. The Greater Good is the only way to survival.
Dark Eldar: Well they are evil no matter what.
Necrons: Not evil. Trying to liberate the galaxy of a plague of living organisms to restore order.

Corax
17-06-2010, 08:46
Discussing the good/evil alignment of different races in 40k is discussing the politics of those races. We're not talking about the average human/eldar/tau - regular people from all races probably try their best to lead a 'good' life in line with the norms for their society. The discussion is about the nature of the different races as a whole, which is steered by their leaders. The factual example I gave was to reinforce my point that, in my opinion, the Imperium is more evil than the other factions.

Are we talking about the politics of the races of 40k or their morality? It seems to me that you are blurring the line between political orientation and morality, and the two have almost nothing to do with each other.

Hunger
17-06-2010, 10:08
Corax you're right to point out that they're not the same thing, but I think the degree of their evilness depends what level you look at it. Some people have said that individual orks are not evil because they are simply hardwired to bully and kill other beings, meaning they are amoral. While I still disagree with this statement, for the reasons others have mentioned, when we look at the overall actions of the species we see genocide on a galactic scale - orks will kill anything and everything they can. Whatever their reasons for the killing, they still an evil race, because any race that inflicts so much damage and death cannot be anything else.

Similarly, the average eldar is probably a decent person, I'm sure there are criminals in eldar society but I'm sure the majority of the race are cultured and refined, law abiding, helpful to old people etc. If this were the case the eldar would clearly be a morally good race, however we know that their leaders will stop at nothing to ensure the survival of their race - they will commit the most evil atrocities on other species simply to save one eldar life. While I can sympathise with their desire to live, it cannot be said that a decision to nuke an entire planet is a morally 'good' one. In this case the political actions of their leaders have determined the alignment of the race.

My view is that most non-amoral races (by which I mean not Orks, Tyranids, Necrons) are primarily driven by the desire to survive, but will accept survival alongside other races - if another race does not engage in hostilities with them, or compromise their survival, they will likely be left in peace. The Imperium, however, operates on the manifest destiny that they should rule the galaxy not by benevolently welcoming other races to the fold and establishing good relations with their neighbours, but by exterminating every non-human race in the galaxy. That is ethnic cleansing on a galaxy-wide scale.

There is a GK Chesterton quote in somebody's signature (Meriwether's?) that says words to the effect of "Men do not disagree over what is evil, they disagree over what reasons they can give to justify committing it". I think this applies to most races in 40K (Chaos = self-promotion, Eldar & Tau = survival, Dark Eldar = slaves for an easier life, Orks = entertainment etc), however the Imperium goes further than this - its reasons seem to be rooted in "because we want to", which sn't a reason at all.

Surely committing evil for evil's sake is morally worse than committing it for a reason, no matter how poor an excuse the reason actually is?

Col.Gravis
17-06-2010, 10:13
The Tyranids are the least evil, as others have said they're just hungry and attack and feed on instinct, or are we saying that animals like say Lions are evil because they hunt to eat?

Panzerkanzler
17-06-2010, 10:30
A lot of people don't seem to understand the question the OP posted. He didn't ask which faction is good. He asked which is the least evil one. To answer the question, in my opinion, the Tau are the least evil. This is not because they don't commit evil/bad acts but because the brutality/genocide/massmurder/planetkilling of the others are even worse. If forced to choose where to live in the 40k universe I'd choose Tau territory because it is the least rotten choice among a bunch of really rotten ones.

Panzerkanzler
17-06-2010, 10:32
The Tyranids are the least evil, as others have said they're just hungry and attack and feed on instinct, or are we saying that animals like say Lions are evil because they hunt to eat?

Wrong. Lions aren't controlled by a self aware hive mind with specific goals and strategies, Tyranids are.

Croakamancer
17-06-2010, 10:51
My vote is for Inquisition. :) Capable of the worst acts, utter, amazing depravity in the name of what is good... but also the most heroic, self-sacrificing and noble. That's the result of knowledge. Not good, not evil. Just what men make of it.

What? Said least evil army. :) INQ aren't inherently evil.... ;)

Mindshred
17-06-2010, 12:29
Tyranids are plenty evil, though they are a different kind of evil.

The Orks might be rowdy soccer boys burning down houses and shooting bystanders for the fun of it, and the Imperium might be a religious organization that brainwashes its members with racist and violent propaganda, but the Tyranids are above all that.

The Nids are like the faceless corporation that repossesses your leased organs because, well, they've got a bottom line to meet at the end of the day and just can't be bothered about the people behind the numbers. If they were nonsentient there might be a case for them being galactic sharks concerned with nothing more than the next meal, but the Tyranids are very sentient.

They're an impersonal and uncaring (almost Lovecraftian) evil with an entirely alien mindset, but they're no less malicious because of it.


So, my vote goes towards the Tau. There have been many horrible things done in the name of the Greater Good, but they do come across as the least evil of the lot.

Necromancer2
17-06-2010, 13:00
Nids are not the inocent lion some claim... they Know what they are doing! Those Genestealers are freaking evil!

Least evil.... Tau or Eldar (Now that they are just trying to survive ;) )

Voss
17-06-2010, 13:07
Tau are the 'least evil' easily.


I'm not so sure about that. 'For the Greater Good' is a philosophy that lends itself to atrocities- anything can be justified as long as it can be spun as benefiting the society as a whole. And there have definitely been some hints that the Ethereals got up to some sinister things when realigning Tau society to suit their purposes.


I don't think its an answerable question, though. Evil is entirely dependent on social mores and perspective- some things considered evil today weren't a century ago, and won't be a century from now. The eldar certainly don't think of themselves as evil, but neither do the orks.


Croakamancer- what noble, self-sacrificing or heroic things have the imperial inquisition ever done?

Corax
17-06-2010, 13:08
Some people have said that individual orks are not evil because they are simply hardwired to bully and kill other beings, meaning they are amoral. While I still disagree with this statement, for the reasons others have mentioned, when we look at the overall actions of the species we see genocide on a galactic scale - orks will kill anything and everything they can. Whatever their reasons for the killing, they still an evil race, because any race that inflicts so much damage and death cannot be anything else.

It is evil according to our moral framework, but my argument is that our moral framework is not the only one and is not inherently the right one for all times and all places. What is evil to us is not necessarily evil to everyone.


While I can sympathise with their desire to live, it cannot be said that a decision to nuke an entire planet is a morally 'good' one. In this case the political actions of their leaders have determined the alignment of the race.

I disagree because what is "moral" is subjective. Nuking an entire planet can be morally "good" (from the Eldar point of view) if it saves the lives of Eldar (assuming that saving Eldar lives = "good" under the eldar ethical system).


My view is that most non-amoral races (by which I mean not Orks, Tyranids, Necrons) are primarily driven by the desire to survive, but will accept survival alongside other races - if another race does not engage in hostilities with them, or compromise their survival, they will likely be left in peace. The Imperium, however, operates on the manifest destiny that they should rule the galaxy not by benevolently welcoming other races to the fold and establishing good relations with their neighbours, but by exterminating every non-human race in the galaxy. That is ethnic cleansing on a galaxy-wide scale.

I would argue that the annihilation of ones enemies is the ultimate guarantor of ones own survival. The Imperium views the competition for survival in the universe as a zero-sum game - any gain for one of their rivals is a loss for them. Ergo, seeking the annihilation of their foes is the only way to advance their own position. To our ethical framework it may be abhorrent, but from a purely pragmatic perspective it makes sense.


Surely committing evil for evil's sake is morally worse than committing it for a reason, no matter how poor an excuse the reason actually is?

Indeed, but what if the "evil" is committed for a good reason? Is it still evil? If one has to choose between death and doing evil, is it evil to chose survival?

Born Again
17-06-2010, 13:18
The tyranids are the least evil, but they are also the least good as well. In DnD terms they would be Lawful Neutral. Tyranids are not sentient (genestealer strains excepting, they are evil when not controlled), any more that a human cell (even a brain cell) is sentient.

The Hive Mind, the conglomerate intellegence of the tyranids as a whole, is as far beyond the scope of human (tau, eldar) intellegence as human intellegence is beyond that of bacterium.

Using this analogy, each planet would be just a bite of food, and the resistance faced would be nothing more than the harmfull bactirum contaminating it. They tyranid armies are nothing more than the autonomic reaction to difficult to digest food, and losing a planet or even a hive fleet is just part of the cost of eating conaminated food (ie throwing up)

So while the hive mind might be able to deal with good and evil at its own scale, at the the human scale it is nothing more than an autonomic respose to specific stimulli and it is no more CAPABLE of caring for human live than a human is for the lives of bacteria on the food it eats. Only the genestealers (the eqivalent of good bacteria) can fall into the humans scale of morality.

PS sorry for the long post, but everyone seems to overestimate the hive minds involvment in the worldly affairs of meer coporial beings (think bacteria), and i want to state my peace

This is a good argument, but until we know more on if the Hive Mind itself is self aware, it's intentions and purpose, we can't say with any certainty. From what we know though, yes, they're just out for lunch. Can't blame them!

Tak
17-06-2010, 13:46
I would'nt call the tyranids evil, but they are parasitic, there's a difference.

I'm torn between the Eldar and the Tau but I would probably say the Tau, although Courage and Honour did show a rather nasty side to the Tau against anyone that did not agree with their 'greater good' thing.

I think the Eldar can be incredibly ruthless at times that verges on naughty if not evil but this is also supposed to be for the greater good is'nt it?

Aw hell, I'll go with Chaos Marines......the Khorne ones.:evilgrin:

LonelyPath
17-06-2010, 14:40
Since the term “greater good” is pretty much a byword for least evil, I suppose the Tau could qualify. Even if they kill anyone who doesn't join them, sterilize unwanted populations and appoint themselves “first among equals” over their supposed allies, can you really find anyone that's nicer (and still alive:shifty:) in 40K?

Tau, the Nazis of 40k...

PaulmanMN
17-06-2010, 14:41
Old ones. All they wanted was to make a peaceful universe. Too bad they failed.


If the Old Ones HAD succeeded, we would all be playing Candyland or Chutes and Ladders on the weekends!

Nezalhualixtlan
17-06-2010, 17:00
The Tau promote collectivism, they are definitely evil.

Zweischneid
17-06-2010, 17:09
The Tau promote collectivism, they are definitely evil.

Why is collectivism evil?

TheDireAvenger
17-06-2010, 17:14
I'm so surprised that so FEW people are actually saying Eldar.

Sure, we're arrogant and think we're better than all of you. Sure, we would try to save one of our own by sacrificing thousands of you. But you miss the most important thing.

BEING an ARROGANT ******* does NOT = evil.

In the end, Eldar do NOT go out of their way to obliterate entire worlds for no reason (except for Biel-Tan) they don't shoot any Xenos on sight (like the Imperium) and they largely leave people alone. Eldar don't go on giant purge-campaigns to kill entire civilizations like the Imperium (Damocles Crusade) and actually actively fight against Chaos and even allying with the Imperium and Tau on many occasions.

So admit it Eldar are pretty damn least evil. Plus our woman are hot.

Tokamak
17-06-2010, 17:14
I would actually say tau are one of the most evil armies. They are like the friendly neighbor who waves to you as you go to work but murdered his wife.

Mass brain washing, sterilization, assassination, and political scheming. I Don't trust that smile of theirs one bit.


Still the best kind of society you can wish for though.

This thread makes me want to start a Tau army, I just agree with their politics that much.

Croakamancer
17-06-2010, 17:22
I still repeat my own answer (primary because no one responded to it, and I rather like the idea). The OP, and thread title, says army, not race. :) And Inquisitors, and those who follow them, tend to have just one thing in common, knowledge. Greater knowledge of what they face, and what can be done about it

The decisions they make are down to inquisitors on the personal level. But as a whole, the INQ and it's principles are 100% morally neutral.

Corax
17-06-2010, 17:32
Why is collectivism evil?

P&R, here we come... :rolleyes:

Nezalhualixtlan
17-06-2010, 20:02
Why is collectivism evil?

Subjugation of the individual and liberty to tyranny and oppression, the means and method of totalitarian and authoritarian regimes to exert their control while posing that it's for everyone's own good. I could rant (or debate) for pages about this, but this isn't really the place for it. I respect that others have differences of opinion, but it's something I feel pretty strongly about. Still not going to go into it further here though in the interest of not trying to derail the thread.


Still the best kind of society you can wish for though.

This thread makes me want to start a Tau army, I just agree with their politics that much.

I like the Tau's models enough to collect them and their shooty nature would be an enjoyable change from my generally CC oriented Tyranids, but their whole Greater "Good" thing really bugs me enough to not want to collect them I disagree with their politics that much. It's a rather dreadful sounding dystopian society from where I'm sitting. If I ever did make a Tau force, it'd need to be one free of the Ethereals grasp, perhaps a Farsight enclave, or something else, but I couldn't stomach playing despotic totalitarian collectivists.

saarkvansoor
17-06-2010, 20:22
Eldar.

Just because a human believes that being slaughtered en masse by Aliens to save just one of their own is evil does not mean it is. Humans kill how many other beings (some sentient) daily just to live on one planet, let alone a million worlds?

The Eldar have been fighting to save the galaxy for longer than most of the other races have actually been "races." They have fought and survived against incredible odds, internal strife, epic failure and ultimately redemption (The Path) long before most of the other species had language to describe good and evil.

In most examples of their warfare, mind you these examples are written from an Imperial Viewpoint, they offer quarter and mercy before bloodshed. "Leave this place in three days or we will exterminate you." It is not their fault that Humans lack the capability to evacuate a planet's population into the Webway overnight. Since human's immediate reaction is always the one finger salute or pompous "Our God Emperor will purge your filth from the stars" nonsense, we almost will never know if the Eldar would have let them live if they actually tried to leave.

So now, in the twilight of their empire, they care more about protecting their own children than saving everyone else. They earned the break. They still drop everything at a moment's notice to race and sacrifice everything in battle against The Great Enemy and almost always side with those who fight against it.

And, as TheDireAvenger said, their chicks are hot.

(Even the male ones in the Banshee suits... but that's another story.)

Lunatic Fringe
17-06-2010, 21:13
Mostly this question comes down to which army do you like and how much do you like it. There could be arguments about the goodness or evilness of every army and every race.

even ovious ones like dark eldar.

this is a setting of eternal war and a lot of people like to pretend there the good guys in there imagination. So those people have to think of a reason why there army is the most good.

Its really a point of view thing. and this setting is artificial and not organic like real life so it depends on the author and what drugs they might have been on at the time and not real cause and efect. The stories are all for the purpose of setting up wars and giving reasons for those wars. Thats about as deep as it gets.

also usually these discussions are a way for people saying their army is better than the others in a smug way.

igwarlord
17-06-2010, 21:20
OK i read the thread and i made up my mind as the truely only good army in 40k

THE PDF
planetary defense forces

they never killed a single xenos that did not attack their home planet first

marv335
17-06-2010, 21:26
Orks.
Or Nids.
Neither are evil.
Orks do it for the fun, they don't attack the weak, because it's not a challenge.

Nids, because they are morally neutral.
They don't hate, they're just consuming, as is their nature.

woodfin
17-06-2010, 22:32
OK i read the thread and i made up my mind as the truely only good army in 40k

THE PDF
planetary defense forces

they never killed a single xenos that did not attack their home planet first

I can't remember where they ever a playable army?

Wolf Lord Balrog
17-06-2010, 22:55
If I ever did make a Tau force, it'd need to be one free of the Ethereals grasp, perhaps a Farsight enclave, or something else, but I couldn't stomach playing despotic totalitarian collectivists.

Despotic totalitarian collectivists they may be, but you won't get a better offer from any other faction.


[PDFs] I can't remember where they ever a playable army?

Regular IG list so far as I know.

Jasaw Chan K'awiil
17-06-2010, 23:08
1. Salamders - Read the background on Chapter Master Tu'shan or the novel Salamander for examples of why.
2. Space Wolves - They strive to do what is inherintly good. I admit that there is a bit of a disconnect between the Heresy Era Wolves Unleashed and the modern chapter but if you read the more recent exploits of the chapter (as well as GW's own words from a WD a while back) the Space Wolves are the good guys.

The Inevitable One
17-06-2010, 23:11
Although the Tau Empire has pleasing aesthetics to us in the real world, some theories have been thrown around that the Ethereals are somewhat "evil" and that is why Commander O'Shovah or Farsight has left the Tau Empire to set up his own empire called the Farsight Enclaves. That is just one rumor and it could be that O'Shovah is under the influence of Chaos because of the Dawn Blade he wields.

Tokamak
17-06-2010, 23:20
If I ever did make a Tau force, it'd need to be one free of the Ethereals grasp, perhaps a Farsight enclave, or something else, but I couldn't stomach playing despotic totalitarian collectivists.

Hmmm despotic totalitarian collectivism.

That's it. Next army will be Tau.

Mindshred
18-06-2010, 06:20
Orks do it for the fun, they don't attack the weak, because it's not a challenge.

So there are a bunch of women, children, and noncombatants running around on Ork-invaded planets? Somehow I doubt that...

I'm really not seeing how Orks get a pass on being evil. They actively go out of their way to hurt others, for no other reason than because they think it's fun. That's some seriously Chaotic Evil stuff there.

Just because they're naturally evil doesn't mean that they should get a pass on it, any more than the Imperium should get a pass because they've all been brainwashed into believing that their acts of evil are actually good.



Nids, because they are morally neutral.
They don't hate, they're just consuming, as is their nature.

By that argument, a cannibal that eats children isn't evil at all, because people have to eat, right?

Simo429
18-06-2010, 10:12
If you are right you can't be evil so Marines all the way

Zweischneid
18-06-2010, 10:17
I couldn't stomach playing despotic totalitarian collectivists.


Which the Imperium of Man in 40K is too, if not more so than the Tau.

Zweischneid
18-06-2010, 10:21
Subjugation of the individual and liberty to tyranny and oppression, the means and method of totalitarian and authoritarian regimes to exert their control while posing that it's for everyone's own good. I could rant (or debate) for pages about this, but this isn't really the place for it. I respect that others have differences of opinion, but it's something I feel pretty strongly about. Still not going to go into it further here though in the interest of not trying to derail the thread.

.

That's not collectivism. That's totalitarian and authoritarian collectivism.

I certainly object to societies embracing the latter. There isn't a human society or nation (i.e. nation=a collective) that hasn't at one point or another put the life of an individual on the line in the interest of the collective however (e.g. by.. say.. sending a soldier to fight for "the nation" or infringing on individual rights on grounds of "the national interest".)

Unfettered individualism doesn't exist. Hell, everybody who would be willing to die for his/her family/friends/fellow soldiers is placing a (small) collective above themselves as an individual. If you take an order as part of an army (and most anything in 40K is an army).. you're partaking in a collective.

A Tau believing in "the greater good" isn't any more evil than a frontier settlers believing in Manifest Destiny or Soldiers fighting for "their country". Just different words to describe an ideal that stands above the individual interest (like, say.. survival).

Memnos
18-06-2010, 10:31
Hmmm despotic totalitarian collectivism.

That's it. Next army will be Tau.

Communist Space Cows for the win!

Dark Aly
18-06-2010, 10:32
eldar- can be evil, don't care about any other life form bar their own
imperial- Dito
chaos- deffinately evil (and don't want it any other way)
dark eldar- see chaos
tau- space communists, brainwashers and caste system. (sinister, corrupt and evil)
Necrons- souless erradicators of live for jelousy (SP?) and spite = evil
Orks- not good or evil, just like fighting
Nids- not good or evil, just like eating

therefore Nids and Orks get my vote. (just realised i am probably a nid myself)

Blink
18-06-2010, 10:47
Communists =/= evil...

Only from the Imperium's standpoint and hearsay stories are there rumors about brainwashing and sterilization for anyone other than criminals. It's more of a campaign to make the Tau LOOK like they're bad when they tend to offer better conditions for anyone who decides to side with them.

Dark Aly
18-06-2010, 13:59
i think which is the most evil is more entertaining.
i think either dark eldar or dark angels.

Nezalhualixtlan
18-06-2010, 16:53
That's not collectivism. That's totalitarian and authoritarian collectivism.

Right, which is what the Tau are. I don't have an issue with voluntary collectivism. If you want to go off and live in a commune of like minded folks, more power to you. But political collectivism always comes at the point of a gun, because there's no other way to compel rationally self interested individuals to have to struggle for their neighbors benefit rather than their own. That's where I have the issue. This is of course a fantasy setting, and somehow forced collectivism magically translated into efficient progress for the Tau society, maybe that's some relic of their own alien biology, but my human mind recoils from it.


Which the Imperium of Man in 40K is too, if not more so than the Tau.

I don't make the argument the Imperium is any better, most of the 40k Universe is very dystopian and dark.


tau- space communists, brainwashers and caste system. (sinister, corrupt and evil)

The very fact that they are a caste society actually invalidates them from being communists, as communism is a stateless, classless society in theory. That's why I've put them down as collectivists. I still think its sinister though.



I personally think the Tyranids are the least evil. They're bad, particularly for humans, but it's hard to think of them as evil. You don't call the lion evil for eating the gazelle. You don't call your body evil for generating white blood cells to fight off infectious pathogens. The Hive Mind may be self aware, and cunning, but it probably does not think in any sort of human recognizable terms, it's scale is so mind bogglingly vast. It's hard to see that it works from any sort of malice, rather than hunger and/or like the white blood cell analogy a method of overcoming low level hostile forces within its perimeter.

In a universe where pretty much it's all darker shades of grey and black, Tyranid neutrality seems to be the least of the evils. But that's just me.

Zweischneid
18-06-2010, 17:32
Least evil. Easy!



Mankind boasts many heroes, men of purpose and dedication without whom the Imperium would crumble. Yet, even amongst their ranks there is a man whose nobility overshadows all others. His triumphs are without number and his deeds the stuff of legend. His name is Marneus Calgar, Master of the Ultramarines and Lord of Macragge.

...

Calgar's men follow him not merely out of duty, but from the unshakeable loyalty that his presence inspires. Indeed, when Calgar was wounded during the campaign for Ichar IV, the surviving Ultramarines formed a wall of bodies around their lord, shielding his broken flesh with the own until aid arrived.

Though famous as a general, Lord Macragge is no stranger to personal valour.

....

To the people of Ultramar, Calgar is the hero of heroes, the epitome of Mankind's will to endure and triumph. When Calgar travels Ultramar on tours of inspection he is met with adulating crowds that roar his name with a passion sadly lacking in other Imperial domains. The people of Ultramar believe to their very core that in Marneus Calgar they have a leader who will fight until the stars turn cold, not only for the immortal Emperor, but for Mankind itself.




Don't doubt the king, the shining icon, the "Saviour of Mankind" (direct quote from the 40K Rulebook).





We are the Ultramarines, the Sons of Guilliman. Whilst we draw breath, we stand. Whilst we stand, we fight. Whilst we fight, we prevail. Nothing shall stay our wrath.


Absolute, undiluted, unbiased, unquestioned, shinging, lawful good exists in 40K. His name is Marneus Calgar, Master of the Ultramarines and Lord of Macragge!

Zweischneid
18-06-2010, 17:46
Right, which is what the Tau are. I don't have an issue with voluntary collectivism. If you want to go off and live in a commune of like minded folks, more power to you. But political collectivism always comes at the point of a gun, because there's no other way to compel rationally self interested individuals to have to struggle for their neighbors benefit rather than their own. That's where I have the issue. This is of course a fantasy setting, and somehow forced collectivism magically translated into efficient progress for the Tau society, maybe that's some relic of their own alien biology, but my human mind recoils from it.


I don't think the Tau Empire is forcing anyone to live within it. Like any modern western nation state.. you're free to leave. If you live in the Tau Empire, you abide by their rules.. again not different on how modern states treat immigrants (i.e.; quite often second class if you're not native). They are at war (who isn't in 40K?), but abstracting from that, they aren't more sinister or "evil" than say.. the "collective" of any European or North American nation state; or maybe a 19th century nation state with second-class citizenship for blacks, women, etc... still in more explicit legally defined outline.

hungry hungry hormagaunt
18-06-2010, 17:59
There's an important distinction here between the morality of the army's rank-and-file troops, and the morality of its leaders.

Take the armies of Humanity, for example. Your average guardsman just wants to not die horribly, and is neutral at worst. Your average Space Marine wants to fight the good fight for the Emperor and Humanity, and is probably on the "good" side of the spectrum. Your average Sister of Battle wants to purge the traitor, the mutant, and the heretic, without compassion or mercy, and would probably count as evil if she weren't so completely thoroughly indoctrinated. The morality of Humanity's leaders or about the Empire of Mankind as a whole says nothing about the individual morality of its front-line soldiers. The "least evil" army is probably one of the Space Marine chapters.

Looking at other armies... Individual soldiers of Chaos are all dedicated, fanatical worshipers of the Chaos Gods and want to bring about mass slaughter and destruction in their name. While a case CAN be made that this isn't evil, it's not one I'm going to entertain here. The leaders of the Chaos faction are not evil because they are Gods, and transcend morality.

Individual soldiers of the Necron legions are soulless machines and probably don't qualify as Evil. Their sub-leaders - the free-willed Necron Lords - are scouring the galaxy of all life to save their own pathetic metal hides, and are evil by anybody's standard. The ultimate leaders of the Necron are the C'tan, and aren't evil for the same reason that the Chaos Gods aren't evil. Probably.

Your average Craftworld Eldar is probably no worse than your average Guardsman, just a lot more arrogant. Exarchs have become utterly obsessed with killing things in a very elegant way, and probably get the "evil" sticker. The leaders of the Eldar... vary too much to say.

The Dark Eldar are the only army I can think of that consists of utter bastards through-and-through. From the lowliest neophyte warrior to Asdrubael Vect, supreme Archon of the Kabal of the Black Heart, they are all sadistic, vicious, hedonistic psychopaths who would not only skin you alive as soon as look at you, they'd actually take pleasure in it. They get my vote for "most evil".

Tyranids are no more good or evil than a locust is good or evil. The Hive Mind is incomprehensible. For that reason, they get a question mark rather than a good or evil rating.

Tau I don't know enough about.

Skyros
18-06-2010, 18:18
Why do so many people answer a question about morality by suggesting an amoral army?

Any amoral "force of nature" armies can't be the answer for the question "who is the most good/least evil/most evil" by definition, because they can't be good or evil. They just aren't on the 'good/evil' scale at all.

Also, to people who say 'orcs aren't evil, they just like klling", how is killing people because you enjoy it LESS evil than killing people because you (misguidedly) think it is your destiny to do so and bring peace to the galaxy?

jsullivanlaw
18-06-2010, 19:05
This question is impossible to answer without a universal definition for the term Evil and how it would be applied to entire races of people. Until we get that, my vote is for Dark Eldar. They make great sacrifices to try and keep their dying race afloat. They know they are going to hell when they die as well and they Keep on Truckin'.

SeaSwift
18-06-2010, 19:07
Actually, amoral armies, due to not being on the scale at all, by definition aren't evil, therefore they are the least evil. This thread isn't about being good, just not being evil, and amoral armies aren't evil.

However, this thread is about what we percieve as being evil, and all but Eldar seem to be very evil to me. (Exarches excluded, they're just addicted to killing(drugs))

Necromancer2
18-06-2010, 19:25
of course which one is evil is in the eye of the beholder. ;)

rellen22
18-06-2010, 19:47
of course which one is evil is in the eye of the beholder. ;)

Which beholder? and in which of it's many eyes should i look? Be careful, i hear some of those eyes can turn a man into stone:eek:.

rellen22
18-06-2010, 23:01
:chirp: :chirp: :chirp: Um, was my joke that bad?:cries: :chirp: :chirp: :chirp:

woodfin
19-06-2010, 00:05
:chirp: :chirp: :chirp: Um, was my joke that bad?:cries: :chirp: :chirp: :chirp:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZA1NoOOoaNw
sorry to busy watching this