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Arkh
15-06-2010, 23:46
So, as many other people have, I got a chance to see the 8th edition book today.

Going into seeing the book I had a number of questions regarding rules that I was either skeptical about or hadn't heard anything about and here they are:

-Fast Cavalry CAN charge on the first turn after the use of their 12" free move IF you chose to go second. Meaning... There is finally another incentive to go 2nd.

-This I assumed, however it wasn't specifically stated. Generals mounted on large targets AND generals that ARE large targets are granted the 18" general radius.

-When fleeing from multiple enemies in combat, you flee from the unit with the most ranks. If tied, randomize which unit to flee from.

-Equal initiatives in combat strike simultaneously. There is no roll off.

-Unless I read the rule incorrectly... A charging terror causer causes a panic check on the charged enemy unit. Much like the Kislev "Glorious Charge" rule from their Winged Lancers. Meaning that if a unit is immune to panic... they are immune to the charging terror causer effect. And another point of note... It stated that the panic check is not required if the charging terror causer is charging from an overrun, pursuit, or random movement. Meaning things like the Abomination will never cause such a test.

-The musician's Swift Reform ability is taken at the start of a unit's activation in the remaining moves phase, not at the end. A unit with a musician may take a LD test, then if passed, make an immediate reform and then carry out its movement. A unit that does so is not permitted to march and counts as moving.

I also read a good deal on the new lores and I must say that I am REALLY liking magic now... and I used to hate it with a passion.

That is all that I have to report that isn't already on the Rumour forum summary.

CaliforniaGamer
15-06-2010, 23:56
Q1
Did you have a chance to read the killing blow special rule?

Normal KB vs. "Heroic KB"?

Basically who gets this Heroic version? All heroes? Only heroes mounted on large monsters?

Q2
Is the either/or ward and regen fairly clear?

Q3
Do units with ASF and higher init than their enemies always reroll to hit or only in the first round of combat?

thanks

papabearshane
15-06-2010, 23:56
Thanks for these updates........

Cant wait to play...........

Arkh
16-06-2010, 00:14
I really didn't do much general browsing of the book. I just just checked the specific questions that I had.

As far as my interpretation to date...

The re-roll for ASF + higher I is just a general rule that is always the case.

Heroic + regular killing blow are just two different abilities and I'm sure will be specifically stated in the statlines of the models. Likely you will most of the changes for this in the army erratas that are coming up.

The either or ward + regen question I was actually going to check as I am skeptical that you are only allowed one or the other, but I forgot to do so.

Skyth
16-06-2010, 01:54
The either or ward + regen question I was actually going to check as I am skeptical that you are only allowed one or the other, but I forgot to do so.


I can confirm that it's in there.

Arkh
16-06-2010, 02:20
I can confirm that it's in there.

Ah kk. Many thanks.

Yrrdead
16-06-2010, 05:07
Just to clarify the regen or ward is in there and it is very clear. One or the other.

Unfortunately I found it rather vague in regards to how regen works with multiple wounds. In the rumor forum it was mentioned that regen was now going to be taken after wounds are multiplied versus prior. I didn't see any mention of that. It simply said after a failed armor save you may make your ward OR regen save.

Irish_Icicle
16-06-2010, 05:14
there's a section about multiple wound weapons. it's the same as it is now in 7th. a wound is inflicted, make all applicable saves, if failed roll the d3, d6, or in some cases take two wounds.

Paraelix
16-06-2010, 05:19
Does anyone know if Spears fight with only a single A or the A characteristic of the model? My poor Saurus need to know...

Irish_Icicle
16-06-2010, 05:23
I only briefly looked at the weapon section, however the rule for spears (foot) mentioned fighting with an extra rank. it's something i didn't look into too much because none of my armies use spears. i can double check tomorrow if no one has responded for you.

Paraelix
16-06-2010, 05:27
The question is, does +1 rank = supporting attacks.... :/

Voss
16-06-2010, 05:39
Yes. Fighting in extra ranks mentions they are supporting attacks. When I looked at the 'fight in additional ranks rule' (which is what spears have) in isolation it confused me briefly because I thought it was the only way to get supporting attacks, but then I realized it was talking about a second rank of additional attacks (and mentioned a third rank with the horde rule).

After working out the new terminology, yes. Supporting attacks is a game term, and spears (fight in additional ranks) and horde are cumulative with the basic supporting attacks units just get.

Paraelix
16-06-2010, 05:41
Yes. Fighting in extra ranks mentions they are supporting attacks. When I looked at the 'fight in additional ranks rule' (which is what spears have) in isolation it confused me briefly because I thought it was the only way to get supporting attacks, but then I realized it was talking about a second rank of additional attacks (and mentioned a third rank with the horde rule).

After working out the new terminology, yes. Supporting attacks is a game term, and spears (fight in additional ranks) and horde are cumulative with the basic supporting attacks units just get.

You lost me...

So Saurus (2A) 6x3 with spears fight with 24 attacks or with 30?

Irish_Icicle
16-06-2010, 05:46
Based off of Voss's post; 12 attacks for the first rank (asuming no champion), 6 attacks from supporting ranks, and 6 from spears, for a total of 24 with a champ.

Don Zeko
16-06-2010, 05:56
Ouch. Did Saurus really need that much of a nerf?

Irish_Icicle
16-06-2010, 06:02
with such a low initiative, it'll be interesting to see how saurus are fielded in the coming months. hand wep/shield giving a 6+ ward, or plus one rank attacks (at 1 attack per model). I guess it depends on what they're facing.

jamano
16-06-2010, 06:48
I thought it said spears fight in an additional rank AND use an additional rank for supporting(bringing them up to three supporting with the horde rule) so they get one extra rank with the normal attacks.

Skyth
16-06-2010, 07:12
Nope. Spears are definitely only 1 attack in the second rank. Not really a nerf for Saurus...Just back to where they were before :)

Kloud13
16-06-2010, 07:20
What about Halberds? They change at all in 8th?

Irish_Icicle
16-06-2010, 07:22
+1 str, two hands. those are the rule for halbreds.

Walgis
16-06-2010, 07:25
Nope. Spears are definitely only 1 attack in the second rank. Not really a nerf for Saurus...Just back to where they were before :)

hows that not a nerf. what its not enough that they have an I1? now less atacks... they must be erreta for saurus spear becouse theyr only one unit threw WHFB with spears and 2A.

how about lore of life? do you remember the 6th spell?
does it give you imunity to loss control on 2+, or something lie that?

dragonet111
16-06-2010, 07:32
That mean HE spears can fight on 4 ranks and 5 in a horde formation?

Kloud13
16-06-2010, 07:37
That mean HE spears can fight on 4 ranks and 5 in a horde formation?

Yes, Yes they can.

Oh, and Curse you Perry the Platapus!!!!

someone2040
16-06-2010, 07:43
hows that not a nerf. what its not enough that they have an I1? now less atacks... they must be erreta for saurus spear becouse theyr only one unit threw WHFB with spears and 2A.

how about lore of life? do you remember the 6th spell?
does it give you imunity to loss control on 2+, or something lie that?
I think he means it's not a nerf, because they're back to where they were before the 7th edition book (With 1 attack from the 2nd rank). Just this time, they're a little cheaper.

Sloeberjong
16-06-2010, 07:53
I've got a question...how do the allied rules work exactly? I'm sure they won't be used at tournaments and stuff but it would be great to have some rules to make Chaos work like it's supposed to work (humans, deamons and beasts working together) or to get some sort of Cult of Slaanesh for DE for example.

thx

Voss
16-06-2010, 08:08
Based off of Voss's post; 12 attacks for the first rank (asuming no champion), 6 attacks from supporting ranks, and 6 from spears, for a total of 24 without a champ.

Correct. Supporting attacks are only 1 attack per model for infantry, cav and monstrous cav. Monstrous infantry can get up to 3 attacks each (based on their profile, but capped at 3).

So, if everyone is in contact, a saurus unit with spears will get 12 +6 (rank 2, which is the first supporting rank)+6 (rank 3, 2nd supporting rank).

By contrast,
a unit of 6 ogres in 3x2 will get 9+9 attacks +3 stomp attacks

a unit of 6 bloodcrushers, as monstrous cavalry in 3x2, will get
6 mount attacks, 6 rider attacks +3 more rider attacks
(supporting ranks of monster cav don't get their full allotment of attacks)
+ 3 stomp attacks

a unit of 60 goblins with spears in 10x6 will get
10 + 10 (rank 2) +10 (rank 3, spears) +10 (rank 4, horde) =40 attacks,
and you'll have to do more than 20 wounds to take any attacks away from the little blighters.

Supporting attacks also _only_ happen to the front.
Flank charges are still very important.... perhaps even moreso, as depending on the unit, you'll take 33% (for elite infantry with 2 attacks base & without spears), 50% or even 75% (more in the case of spear elves) of their attacks away.

Chaos257
16-06-2010, 11:05
This will make playing Chaos almost pointless. Not only we will lack utility, our warriors will get killed by units of Goblins.

jamano
17-06-2010, 01:40
I don't see how, 40 goblins hitting on 5s is 13 hits, wounding on 5s is 3-4 wounds. 7x3 warriors with halberds and mark of khorne is gonna be 14-15 dead goblins compared to the one or two dead warriors a turn. Or you could just go hw + sheild and tzeench and never die with your 3+ then 5+ save. The best way to handle warriors in close combat was to be able to charge them, but with their high initiative and not removing models from combat they're going to be very difficult to deal with.

Tarliyn
17-06-2010, 02:14
after reading the supporting attacks rule and the spears rule I would say that saurus will get 30 attacks with spears

The supporting attacks says that any model in base contact with a model in combat may make an attack, and spears says fight in an extra rank.

So I think the attacks would go like this: 12 in first rank, 6 in second rank from supporting attacks, and 12 in 3rd rank from spears.

Thats my thinking though


This will make playing Chaos almost pointless. Not only we will lack utility, our warriors will get killed by units of Goblins.

I think that chaos will be one of the more powerful armies actually. Killy troops? check. Survivable Troops? check. Seems like they will be sitting pretty good

Mach_5
17-06-2010, 02:22
"fight in an extra rank" is a special rule (like always strikes first, or frenzy), and if you look at the special rules section "fight in an extra rank" means you can make a supporting attack from one more rank than normal. Supporting attacks are capped at 1A per model, unless you're monstrous infantry, so the saurus in the example mentioned would have only 24 attacks.

Tarliyn
17-06-2010, 02:37
"fight in an extra rank" is a special rule (like always strikes first, or frenzy), and if you look at the special rules section "fight in an extra rank" means you can make a supporting attack from one more rank than normal. Supporting attacks are capped at 1A per model, unless you're monstrous infantry, so the saurus in the example mentioned would have only 24 attacks.

does it specifically say they may make an extra row of support attacks?

or just fight in an extra rank?

sorry I can't remember off the top of my head

Ethos
17-06-2010, 04:09
Any information on combat resolution?

Casualties
Banner
Battle Standard Bearer
Ranks
Flanks / Rear


is there anything else?

Mach_5
17-06-2010, 04:12
Tarliyn: Just as the greatweapon gives you the "always strikes last" rule, which is explained in the special rules section, the spear gives you the "fights in an extra rank"* rule, also explained in the special rules section.
*without the book in front of me I can't remember what the "fights in an extra rank" rule is called, but I am certain the spear entry references the special rule, which specifies that the extra rank is a supporting attack. In fact the example for the special rule is a unit with spears fighting with 2 ranks of supporting attacks, or a horde unit with spears fighting with 3 ranks of supporting attacks.


Ethos:
+1 for charging
+1 for high ground
up to +5 overkill

Irish_Icicle
17-06-2010, 04:17
a unit of 6 bloodcrushers, as monstrous cavalry in 3x2, will get
6 mount attacks, 6 rider attacks +3 more rider attacks
(supporting ranks of monster cav don't get their full allotment of attacks)
+ 3 stomp attacks



monstrous cavalry fights as monstrous infantry though, so wouldn't the second rank contribute more supporting attacks?

Fallen Angel 31
17-06-2010, 11:16
Question regarding Warmachines.

The last rumour I read said about all warmachines having a combined profile (like chariots in 7th).

My question is this;

Can we now mount all warmachine AND the crew on a single base, or would we need to keep them seperate as they are now?

Is it possible to kill off some/all the crew, but keep the machine intact?

I'm putting together my new army and will shortly be gettign to my Doom divers & spear chuckers. I don't want to put them together, base them, and then have to redo it 2 weeks later when I get the book.

Thanks

Walgis
17-06-2010, 11:20
question about magic.
it is said that only one wizard may know the spell exept the basicone. what happens if i have two slanns that know all the spells from the same lore? one nows all other knows only basic spell (LOL)?

Putty
17-06-2010, 11:29
Question about VC: Why aren't there any whining threads about the change to Fear / Terror yet?

Ramius4
17-06-2010, 12:07
question about magic.
it is said that only one wizard may know the spell exept the basicone. what happens if i have two slanns that know all the spells from the same lore? one nows all other knows only basic spell (LOL)?

Only if you were silly enough to choose the same lore.


Question about VC: Why aren't there any whining threads about the change to Fear / Terror yet?

Probably because the new mechanic can be just as beneficial. Instead of being all or nothing, it will benefit a lot of units, instead of just a few with characters that are capable of winning combats. Even your Zombies have a decent chance of winning if the enemy fails that fear test. Skeletons and Ghouls will have a field day with WS 1 enemies when it happens.

The new mechanic isn't bad, it's just different.