PDA

View Full Version : The Gunline Edition



WarmbloodedLizard
16-06-2010, 02:46
I'm really annoyed by the EXTREME buff gunlines get. cannons D6 wounds, 2 ranks missile, more accurate, almost NO real cover...
what were they thinking? they should have made guns more of a support aspect, not this power rubbish...

Paraelix
16-06-2010, 02:49
Uh... Move + 2D6 charge. Even Dwarf warriors can fly 15" across the table into combat... Ergo, possible to charge in Turn 1 if you go second and your opponent moved forwards.

szlachcic
16-06-2010, 02:53
This subject has been discussed to death. Please post in any number of the threads this has been brought up instead of posting it yet again.

Putty
16-06-2010, 05:54
I'm really annoyed by the EXTREME buff gunlines get. cannons D6 wounds, 2 ranks missile, more accurate, almost NO real cover...
what were they thinking? they should have made guns more of a support aspect, not this power rubbish...

*yawn*

empire cannons have always been d6 wounds.

2 ranks missile... well we had hills for that for quite some time.

and uh... play with proper terrain yeah?

LaughinGremlin
16-06-2010, 06:00
Good night, Irene, goodnight.
Irene, goodnight....

~ A fat lady named "Horse", who loves to be beaten whenever she sings.

decker_cky
16-06-2010, 06:11
And then there's the missions.

And BSBs rerolling all leadership tests means the army advancing panics less and succeeds at more rally rolls.

2 ranks shooting...but still only 2 ranks on a hill so no worry there.

Cannons cannot shoot through obstacles, so it's easy to hide from them.

Then there's the encouragement of more ranked infantry. More models means shooting does less.

I'd rate stonethrowers as marginally improved against infantry. No guessing or partials, but S3 and allows armour save.

TheAmazingAntman
16-06-2010, 07:09
Also, people might actually take empire mortars now.

...but probably not.

Solar_Eclipse
16-06-2010, 07:46
I'm really annoyed by the EXTREME buff gunlines get. cannons D6 wounds, 2 ranks missile, more accurate, almost NO real cover...
what were they thinking? they should have made guns more of a support aspect, not this power rubbish...

Have you noticed that currently that 2 of the most powerful armies in the game, Daemons and Vamps, have basically 0 shooting?

Have you also noticed how another of the most powerful, dark Elves, have no Cannons?

Really, Shooting isnt support right now, its basically negligible, its underpowered unless you take an army of it.

I would like the chance to have shooting which enemies worry about when i play my dwarfs.

Voss
16-06-2010, 07:56
Agreed, shooting particularly with units has largely been a matter of 'Well, whatever' in fantasy. You could go all out if you had the right armies, but it wasn't very impressive. So buffing shooting might actually make it a relevant part of the game.

Also, keep in mind warmachines changed significantly. Stonethrowers get to benefit from the changes to templates, but they also are reduced in strength and allow saves. Cannons are little more than upstrengthed bolt-throwers.

You will probably fight competitive dwarf and empire gunlines, but if they get more than 2 turns of shooting I will be very surprised.

Seth the Dark
16-06-2010, 08:03
Also, people might actually take empire mortars now.

...but probably not.

I think I might since I wont have just 4 Special choices. I currently run 2 Cannon, Greatswords and either Pistoliers or Outriders.

Tae
16-06-2010, 08:08
Add to the fact that they have a combind profile, so all you need is to roll 3 6's when you shoot at it with a unit of archers and poof, gone.

Not to mention cannons operate like bolt throwers (i.e. if it doesn't kill the first thing it hits, it stops).

Tomalock
16-06-2010, 08:23
While I'm not getting hysterical by any means, most of you are selling the shooting phase way short in 8th. With magic becomming very dangerous to the caster and random in general, shooting is a huge benifit to an army as a reliable phase of ranged engagement. Volly fire alone makes big units of archers a more serious consideration, especially the dirt cheap ones.

Where magic is currently the most abused phase in 7th, shooting has the vast potential to be so in 8th. Magic is limited by the number of dice you can have in your pool (max of 12) and the spells you can take (no duplicates outside of your base spell in any lore in your army). With shooting all bets are off with the restrictions of slots lifted. The guys at my LGS figured out that dwarfs can take around 12 war machines in 8th and still have points for the rest of the army. Empire and O&G are similar.

Lets not forget that there are no more guess weapons, its all pick a point and scatter. Add to that no more partials for templates and units are going to get beat in the face as they cross the table. I think you might even see Tomb Kings climb up the competitive ladder slightly based on that (and taking the character that makes all the arrows poisoned) with up to 4 stone thrower shots a turn.

Again, I am not crying panic here. I think combat and magic will mitigate shooting to a degree. However it is foolish to merely dismiss shooting as simply support. It is now very possible to make an effective shooting army that will hurt a lot more than it does in 7th. Will it be a top tier army? Who knows until people start playing with 8th seriously, but until that happens I'm not going to discount the strong possibility of shooting taking the reigns from magic.

shelfunit.
16-06-2010, 09:09
Not to mention cannons operate like bolt throwers (i.e. if it doesn't kill the first thing it hits, it stops).

Please tell me this is a joke... A giant arrow I can understand being stopped by a basic trooper, but a cannon ball? For multi-wound creatures I can see this is possible, but for R&F troopers, we already have the second artillery dice misfire as the ball sticking in the ground, this is ridiculous and seems specifically designed to stop the cannon rolling through their new beautiful "mega-unit" blocks.

EDIT: The actual mechanism of losing str as it goes through a unit I like.

Ronin_eX
16-06-2010, 09:55
If anything this edition gives me hope that Dwarfs will be viable fielded as a close combat army. Given that the most likely roll on the bilinear probability chart of a given 2D6 roll is a 7 (with the most likely rolls being plus or minus one of that) that gives an average charge range of 10" for Dwarfs and 11" for most other races.

And while it is possible to roll way under it usually ends up being not much worse than the current maximum charge distance of most armies (Dwarfs, for instance, have a 2.7% chance of charging less than before and a 5.5% chance of charging the exact same; they will tend toward charging longer than before).

So with charge ranges increasing I can see combat armies becoming a lot more viable. Terrain also seems to be emphasized more in this edition than before.

The buffs to cannons and being able to fire in two ranks without a hill is nice but hardly over the top. Close combat got much bigger boosts overall in my estimation.

Scythe
16-06-2010, 10:01
Try the search funtion. For example:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=261555

shelfunit.
16-06-2010, 10:16
Try the search funtion. For example:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=261555

Seems to have less content than this post.

Crovax20
16-06-2010, 10:23
If anything this edition gives me hope that Dwarfs will be viable fielded as a close combat army. Given that the most likely roll on the bilinear probability chart of a given 2D6 roll is a 7 (with the most likely rolls being plus or minus one of that) that gives an average charge range of 10" for Dwarfs and 11" for most other races.

And while it is possible to roll way under it usually ends up being not much worse than the current maximum charge distance of most armies (Dwarfs, for instance, have a 2.7% chance of charging less than before and a 5.5% chance of charging the exact same; they will tend toward charging longer than before).

So with charge ranges increasing I can see combat armies becoming a lot more viable. Terrain also seems to be emphasized more in this edition than before.

The buffs to cannons and being able to fire in two ranks without a hill is nice but hardly over the top. Close combat got much bigger boosts overall in my estimation.

and lets not forget that GW wants us to play with more terrain

Nicha11
16-06-2010, 10:28
My Heavens Slann would love to meet your gunline.

The powered up comet could take out around a quarter of your army.

Fabius
16-06-2010, 10:56
Let's be honest, tehre were only 3 armies in 7th which could really rely upon the shooting phase to win or alter the game in a favourable way. Most of the times the weapons used were cannons and not much else. Bowfire was not a remarkable feature in any of my games and only works against a small amount of enmies anyway (Light cav etc.) and gunlines were always easy to overrun in the end and very vulnerable to all sorts of fliers. Sure, you might get lucky with shooting and even panic some units, but if you managed to fail with your shooting in the first two rounds you were at a very serious disadvantage.

Idle Scholar
16-06-2010, 10:57
To be fair, most gunline armies are also magic heavy.

Scythe
16-06-2010, 11:49
To be fair, most gunline armies are also magic heavy.

Empire & Dwarfs? ;)

I think, overall, power will be quite equal to current edition. Fire in 2 ranks helps, but war machines generally got slightly worse (or a lot worse in case of a stone thrower), march blocking is no longer a given, and all units can generally charge a lot further.

An empire army with quite some shooting backed up by a lvl 4 wizard could be nasty though with those new destructive lores. But we'll have to see how that plays out.

Odominus
16-06-2010, 12:19
Ok, after several simulations. Playing without the Army erratas, something stuck out like a sore thumb: the Shooting phase.

Before, most players complained about how the magic phase won games for certain armies. Now, I surmise the complaints will shift to the shooting phase.

Non-guessing warmachines have become king. Empire, OnG, and to a lesser extent, Dwarfs benefit GREATLY. So much that I believe it moves at least Empire and OnG to the top tier. Thow in cheap shooting units more easily deployed and firing in 2 ranks. Cheap expendable characters which are utilitarian (they serve a specific purpose) also perform very well. I watched a 600 point unit get shredded in 1 shooting phase. I believe having massive point sinks in your list is very dangerous in 8th, be it units or super characters. Thats why being able to spread your points out amongst say 130+ models is strategically ideal. You can afford to lose models and still be in the game. Whereas, a HE Lord on StarDragon, or character-heavy doggie deathstar, bloodthirsters, etc. will have alot of their eggs in 1 basket. If they get killed, the army loses most of it's punch. And Im not talking about full gunlines here. Probably around 700ish pts in a 3k game.

Getting magic defense against damaging magic isnt that hard in 8th. There are common magic items that can get you to a 2+ ward save against magic. There is a spell or two that affects shooting. So yes most of the time, shooting is unstoppable. Throw in the spells that make your shots either +1 to hit, flaming, magical, re-roll 1's, etc.

Of course, when the individual army erratas are released, they could totally undue this theory:angel:

How will your army adapt to the new shooting phase in 8th? (excluding VC of course hehe gogo banshee scream)

Ultimate Life Form
16-06-2010, 12:27
How will your army adapt to the new shooting phase in 8th?

Lizardmen:

Engine of the Gods' Portent of Warding = 5+ Ward against Shooting for my entire army

Slann's Plaque of Divine Protection = 2+ Ward against shooting for my General

Lore of Heavens' Basic Spell = THE spell against gunlines (think Lore of Life Rain spell only much cheaper) - easily spammed with Skink Priests.

Odominus
16-06-2010, 12:29
Dont forget a subtle rule change: in 7th, guess range weapons had to go first ie cannons. That rule doesnt apply in 8th. Ok, target that unit of templeguard with the slann. 3 mortars and 2 rocket batteries ought to soften it up nicely. Then hopefully, the LO,S! rule is gone for your Slann and he starts eating cannonballs. Although, I still havent heard if Slann actually gets LO,S! rule in 8th due to the different sized base rule. But you see the possibilities.

Yea Lore of Heaven basic spell is a good one!

Ultimate Life Form
16-06-2010, 12:31
I think with a 2+ Ward and 50% of the enemy cannons not firing he'll shrug off a few blasts.

Odominus
16-06-2010, 12:46
I think with a 2+ Ward and 50% of the enemy cannons not firing he'll shrug off a few blasts.

I agree, Lizard is better set up than anyone to combat the shooting phase. Seeing how skink priest HAVE to take Heavens.

Everyone else has to pick their Lore while creating their armylist. BUT your 2+ ward against shooting ONLY applies to the Slann yes? Not to the templeguard, stegs, etc. so great damage can still be done.

Ultimate Life Form
16-06-2010, 12:49
In fact under the new rules ('miscast' roasting everything that comes too close to the caster) I'm for the first time considering running my Slann solo. :p

Higher State of Consciousness - only magic attacks can affect the Slann. Hm... maybe he won't need the 2+ Ward after all. Fire away Mr. Empire!

Scythe
16-06-2010, 13:38
Non-guessing warmachines have become king. Empire, OnG, and to a lesser extent, Dwarfs benefit GREATLY.

So, why is this true, rules wise speaking? I can hardly imagine it is only because of the 'shoot at any time during your shooting phase' thing. As cannons can now stop on an unlucky 1 to wound, and stone throwers got lower S / allow armour saves, what is it that makes them so much better?

Odominus
16-06-2010, 13:57
So, why is this true, rules wise speaking? I can hardly imagine it is only because of the 'shoot at any time during your shooting phase' thing. As cannons can now stop on an unlucky 1 to wound, and stone throwers got lower S / allow armour saves, what is it that makes them so much better?

No guess and even more important: No Partials. TLOS and no hiding behind forests. (shooting through a forest is -2 hard cover...if you use a BS)

Wait till you've seen it in action. Or just dicehammer it yourself and see.

Scythe
16-06-2010, 14:14
No guess and even more important: No Partials. TLOS and no hiding behind forests. (shooting through a forest is -2 hard cover...if you use a BS)

Wait till you've seen it in action. Or just dicehammer it yourself and see.

The guess part is moot for me. In the past few years, I have never seen anyone misguess more than an inch in the games I played. Could be plain experience though.

Partials is quite a change, but then, stone throwers are plain S3 now, right? Against your basic T3, 5+ save infantry that means 33% wounds, compared to 66% at S4, no save. Given you might roughly cause double hits with the disappearance of partials, it seems to me that power remained quite equal there.

TLOS seems mainly an issue for monsters during the first few turns. It can be pretty brutal I guess, but I didn't really like the direction things like the Hellpit Abomination went, so I am not directly sure about this one yet.

Maybe it will be different once I see it in action, but all in all not something that has conivinced me yet.

Novrain
16-06-2010, 14:27
How about a dwarf GT with RoAccuracy and 1 or 2 runes of Penetration?

Place the template, roll the scatter, dont like it then re roll it. oh and it is S4 or S5 template for about 150pts i think.....

Odominus
16-06-2010, 14:30
stone throwers are plain S3 now, right? Against your basic T3, 5+ save infantry that means 33% wounds, compared to 66% at S4, no save. Given you might roughly cause double hits with the disappearance of partials, it seems to me that power remained quite equal there.

There are things out there besides stonethrowers. I agree ST arent that scary. Mathhammer it against an Empire rocket battery blast or doom diver, mortars, pigeon bombs, etc.


Maybe it will be different once I see it in action, but all in all not something that has conivinced me yet.

:yes:

Scythe
16-06-2010, 14:35
There are things out there besides stonethrowers. I agree ST arent that scary. Mathhammer it against an Empire rocket battery blast or doom diver, mortars, pigeon bombs, etc.


Possibly. I expect most blast template weapons who aren't changed in the rulebook to get errata though, but that's an assumption naturally.

(nb. the doom diver doesn't use the blast template iirc. It deals a set d6 S5 hits instead)

Odominus
16-06-2010, 14:36
(nb. the doom diver doesn't use the blast template iirc. It deals a set d6 S5 hits instead)


Ahh righto:)

Skyros
16-06-2010, 14:39
I'm really annoyed by the EXTREME buff gunlines get. cannons D6 wounds

Barely relevant.


2 ranks missile

Gunlines deployed on hills often times anyway.


more accurate

Not really. Your chance of misfire or scattering is exactly the same.

The random charge distances and faster movement more than counteract the 'gunline' stuff, IMO.

Skyros
16-06-2010, 14:40
There are things out there besides stonethrowers. I agree ST arent that scary. Mathhammer it against an Empire rocket battery blast or doom diver, mortars, pigeon bombs, etc.



The mortar is also S3. If an ST isn't scary, a mortar isn't either.
Pigeon bombs are hilariously bad (as are empire engineers in general). The rocket battery is the least accurate war machine in the game. Doom divers don't even use a template.

Removing guessing has almost no effect, I don't know that I've seen people who actually use guess weapons miss by more than an inch or two. Many people I know can drop it right on the head of the guy they are aiming at - it's particularly easy on GW's 24" grid boards.

The no partials is pretty huge. Ironically, they had to reduce the stonethrowers strength to compensate, so now it's much less valuable at killing units like knights (IMO) and better at hitting big units like infantry. But...with a low S3, the stone thrower (and mortar) just aren't going to carry much punch against most infantry. The guy under the hole gets pasted pretty well if you're hit by a stone thrower though (and you can fail your look out sir roll against template weapons in 8th)

random600
16-06-2010, 14:42
I feel the taking out of the guess range for warmachines isn't all that harmful. I started playing warhammer back in november and i rarely miss and when i do its because of a bad dice roll. I do think i will be taking more s5 grudge throwers though at a little over 200 points for S5 and reroll scatter dice. It well worth the points and will drop things like crazy.

Odominus
16-06-2010, 15:01
The mortar is also S3. If an ST isn't scary, a mortar isn't either.

The mortar has AP so is different, hence why I mentioned it.

Pigeon bombs are hilariously bad (as are empire engineers in general).

Aha! But when they hit, the no partials rule makes them nasty at str4. Target anywhere on the table.

The rocket battery is the least accurate war machine in the game.

Strange, as it was the rocket battery str5 5" template that was by far doing the most damage. Consistently.


Again, wait till you see them in action for a few games, then form your opinion. I did.

Paradox Tree
16-06-2010, 19:53
one thing to think about before you think that gunlines are overbuffed is that terrain is gona be 5-10 pieces or something like that? yeah, gunlines can shoot in 2 ranks now so you can squeeze more shots out per attack, but youll only get 1/2 as many attacks off anyway depending on how trees etc get set up.

ALSO: gunlines normally just get stretched out for maximum models getting to attack anyway rite? all this rule does is compress their size on the board to make room for all the hoard units youll be using now.

its all good

Skyros
16-06-2010, 20:00
Again, wait till you see them in action for a few games, then form your opinion. I did.

I have :)

I thought a stone thrower had armor piercing 2 compared to the mortar's armor piercing 1? That's what was going on at the table next to me with brets anyway. They could have been doing it wrong, of course.

Overall the stonethrower and mortar were enormous disapointments for anyone who brought them. (No one brought a runed up ST or flame cannon). They just don't hit hard enough to hurt anyone but the weakest of infantry.

Magic was very devastating though, both to the enemy, and to your own side if you miscast. Saw one game where a guy pretty much destroyed a hydra in a single cast of the top tier fireball spell, and then another where a whole regiment of elves perished in a miscast.

Tae
16-06-2010, 20:17
People are overlooking the new 'to wound' table as well as war machines combined profiles. That means for a lot of war machines one unit of archers needs only 2 or 3 rolls of '6' and the war machine will be destroyed.

Not saying it's easy or that it'll happen often, but 1 cannon vs 10 archers outside of grapeshot range and I know who my money's on.

Zoolander
16-06-2010, 21:45
*yawn*

empire cannons have always been d6 wounds.

2 ranks missile... well we had hills for that for quite some time.

and uh... play with proper terrain yeah?

You do realize that dwarfs don't use empire cannons, and terrain is 100% random, don't you? Try again.

Zoolander
16-06-2010, 21:49
To be fair, most gunline armies are also magic heavy.

I can't think of any that I've ever seen.

Amnar
16-06-2010, 22:13
one thing to think about before you think that gunlines are overbuffed is that terrain is gona be 5-10 pieces or something like that? yeah, gunlines can shoot in 2 ranks now so you can squeeze more shots out per attack, but youll only get 1/2 as many attacks off anyway depending on how trees etc get set up.

Trees no longer block LOS

ALSO: gunlines normally just get stretched out for maximum models getting to attack anyway rite? all this rule does is compress their size on the board to make room for all the hoard units youll be using now.

its all good

Or just more room for more shooty units? As a dark elf player, the rule changes discourage me from taking combat blocks (t3, low armor, yay) and encourage me to take more shooting and more magic.

Unfortunately, this isn't my playstyle :( Glass cannons unfortunately are a lot more glass like in this edition...

Voss
17-06-2010, 02:01
terrain is 100% random

Actually, terrain isn't even close to 100% random. Its placed by a person who usually (at least in my experience) is setting it up in a combination of 'looks right', 'roughly balanced,' 'some areas to block LOS/movement', and 'hills for shooting from, usually in the deployment zone.' 100% random would occasionally generate odd clumps in the corners or the middle, forests on top of woods on top of buildings and all sorts of bizarre things that people wouldn't do.

Random terrain would involve dumping the terrain box over the table and leaving everything where it fell. Most gamers seem to want to build an interesting and appropriate looking table, so that fences/hedges get set up in rows near a building to make it look like a farm, forests providing some cover for a key unit, and hills conveniently at the edge of the battle for warmachines to sit upon.

Hellebore
17-06-2010, 02:16
I unfortunately can't see any reason for dwarfs specifically to go for melee in 8th.

Their shooting has effectively doubled in number with the rules for no (shooting) downsides.

However, the only bonus they received on the melee side of things is an increased charge range - which is more than offset by their Initiative forcing them to strike last pretty much all the time.

They'll sustain more casualties and a longer charge range will mean they'll sustain them further way from their own lines.

There is even less incentive to charge a unit with spears and a higher I than they have (ie pretty much everyone with spears) as it will give them even more attacks to hit them first with.

So in my opinion dwarfs will still be encouraged to use gunlines because they were just boosted immensely whilst at best their melee stayed the same (in equivalent terms).

Dwarfs aren't cheap, the step up rule just means dwarfs are going to die in greater numbers than they used to.

Also with the hand weapon and shield rule changing, normal dwarfs will go from 3+ saves to the front to 5+ with a 6+ ward save which is a total nerf in ability.

Unless their errata gives them new rules the dwarfen gunline just got better, not worse.

Hellebore

Dungeon_Lawyer
17-06-2010, 02:24
No guess and even more important: No Partials. TLOS and no hiding behind forests. (shooting through a forest is -2 hard cover...if you use a BS)

Wait till you've seen it in action. Or just dicehammer it yourself and see.

YUP we played out a game using the new ruleset last nite and shooting was the most dominate phase of the game----6 spearchukkas and a stonethrower spanked me--shooting phase is digustingly good now.

Odominus
17-06-2010, 02:36
YUP we played out a game using the new ruleset last nite and shooting was the most dominate phase of the game----6 spearchukkas and a stonethrower spanked me--shooting phase is digustingly good now.


Bingo. DL, apparantly you saw what I saw:D

decker_cky
17-06-2010, 02:46
Also with the hand weapon and shield rule changing, normal dwarfs will go from 3+ saves to the front to 5+ with a 6+ ward save which is a total nerf in ability.

Unless their errata gives them new rules the dwarfen gunline just got better, not worse.

Hellebore

You mean a 4+ armour, 6+ ward, which is only marginally worse (and actually the same or better against anything wounding the dwarfs on 2's).

Dwarfs have a lot of single effective attack models. They lost out in the past to multi-attack models. In 8th, single good attack > multiple decent attacks.

They're also resilient and relatively cheap for their abilities.

Hellebore
17-06-2010, 03:00
Thanks for the clarification on the parry rule. However they're just as resilient as they used to be, and people still used gunlines when they only had half the shots.

What incentive is there for a dwarf player to get their troops mauled in melee when they can double their ranged output with no downside?

As I said, they got a massive boost to shooting and their shooting was already winning them games without the boost. I don't think the step up rule is going to offset the low I handicap so dwarfs are just going to defend even more than they used to behind their 200% output gunline.

Hellebore

Moepho
17-06-2010, 04:21
The rune of penetrating will be auto include for any dwarf grudge thrower. Making it str4 and magical. Add other runes to flavor with up to 3 grudge throwers in an army....this could be the beginning of the "pie plate of doom" dwarf list....

I'm willing to bet you'll see 3 grudge thrower and 1 cannon dwarf lists in the tournament scene just for the potential "alpha strike" crippling of your opponent potential. Won't work all the time, but enough people will probably try to gamble on it.

Dag
17-06-2010, 08:53
i think dwarves would be a sick army, always loved grudge throwers and their bolt throwers, mortars too but unless you were vs orcs you couldnt use it to its best potential.

ChaosVC
17-06-2010, 09:44
Seems like its a good time to dust of the dust from my pretty empire boxes and start doing some painting yah? Haha! I can see that unit between the legs of your chaos warriors! Die fools die!!!

dragonet111
17-06-2010, 10:48
A friend of mine is a dwarf player with a very shooty army. If the 8ed is a gunline edition he will be overjoyed. After reading the new spells I know that I don't care if his gunline is seriuously boost :D.

Spiney Norman
17-06-2010, 11:10
To be fair, most gunline armies are also magic heavy.

Errr, no, the best armies equipped to form gunlines are Empire and dwarfs, dwarfs have no magic and Empire don't have the tools to go magic heavy, conversely out of the High magic armies (Lizardmen, Tzeentch Chaos, VC & High Elves) 4 of them have little to no shooting, and in the case of helfs their units are too expensive to do both high magic and shooting.


The mortar is also S3. If an ST isn't scary, a mortar isn't either.
Pigeon bombs are hilariously bad (as are empire engineers in general). The rocket battery is the least accurate war machine in the game. Doom divers don't even use a template.

You're kidding me right? Yes the mortar is str 3, its also armour piercing and uses the large template, not the small one. Its the same anti-horde device it always was, but with no partials and loss of guess range its become much, much better, whilst taking none of the nerfs which affect stone throwers. Now consider that rules encourage people to field units 10 wide and you might appreciate how awesome the mortar now is.

Also pigeon bombs are not hilariously bad, its the engineer thats bad, pigeon bobs are pretty darn great, and the only thing which makes the engineer even vaguely tenable.


Removing guessing has almost no effect, I don't know that I've seen people who actually use guess weapons miss by more than an inch or two. Many people I know can drop it right on the head of the guy they are aiming at - it's particularly easy on GW's 24" grid boards.

I know a lot of people who this will make a massive difference to. Generally players don't use guess range weapons if they can't guess well, this rule opens up all army list options to all players equally.

Harfaern
17-06-2010, 11:12
I really hope the missions with objectives will be balanced enough to force that kind of armies to move ahead to try to win the battle (and not only try to blow out the entire enemy army) ;)

Azhrar
17-06-2010, 11:44
any idea how the stonethrower nerf will affect the hellcannon? Because it look like I will have to start running 2 of these badboys.

Cordantheman
17-06-2010, 11:55
I'm really annoyed by the EXTREME buff gunlines get. cannons D6 wounds, 2 ranks missile, more accurate, almost NO real cover...
what were they thinking? they should have made guns more of a support aspect, not this power rubbish...

I thought they introduced a lot of objective based games so shooty armies can't just stand back and shoot?

Odominus
17-06-2010, 18:04
Another simulation today, and once again domination by WMs.

Todays MVP: Empire Mortar FTW! My opponents general's unit was shredded by turn 2.

Also, proud to report, I successfully launched 2 pigeon bombs and took out 8 then 12 nightgoblins! Sweeeet :eek:

kaintxu
17-06-2010, 19:20
Another simulation today, and once again domination by WMs.

Todays MVP: Empire Mortar FTW! My opponents general's unit was shredded by turn 2.

Also, proud to report, I successfully launched 2 pigeon bombs and took out 8 then 12 nightgoblins! Sweeeet :eek:

what did you throw the mortars against?

Odominus
17-06-2010, 19:34
what did you throw the mortars against?

A unit of 50 Orc boys with bsb and general.

DarkstarSabre
17-06-2010, 20:11
I can sum up the whole OMG WAR MACHINES approach for Lizards as follows.

If we don't bugger your shooting up with magic...we'll send Terradons instead.

Combined profile + D3 S4 rock hits per Terradon = Profit.

Odominus
17-06-2010, 20:25
I can sum up the whole OMG WAR MACHINES approach for Lizards as follows.

If we don't bugger your shooting up with magic...we'll send Terradons instead.

Combined profile + D3 S4 rock hits per Terradon = Profit.


Remember, WM uses its own T against shooting now. No randomizing. So you are throwing St4 rocks against T7. But I agree, skink priests have to take Heaven lore and the default spell is great against WM;)

kaintxu
17-06-2010, 21:25
I can sum up the whole OMG WAR MACHINES approach for Lizards as follows.

If we don't bugger your shooting up with magic...we'll send Terradons instead.

Combined profile + D3 S4 rock hits per Terradon = Profit.

Combined profile is not affecting them because they allready have a combined profile

Scythe
18-06-2010, 06:49
You're kidding me right? Yes the mortar is str 3, its also armour piercing and uses the large template, not the small one. Its the same anti-horde device it always was, but with no partials and loss of guess range its become much, much better, whilst taking none of the nerfs which affect stone throwers. Now consider that rules encourage people to field units 10 wide and you might appreciate how awesome the mortar now is.


Without having seen the errata, I think we're selling the hide of the bear before it has been shot here. Anyway, it became better under current rules, yes, but then nobody used mortars in 7th edition anyway, so they could use a boost.


Todays MVP: Empire Mortar FTW! My opponents general's unit was shredded by turn 2.

Just how many mortars were you using? Even assuming a clean hit (only 33% chance, mind!), you will be hard pressed to kill more than 10 orcs save for some very lucky dice rolls.

Odominus
18-06-2010, 08:00
Just how many mortars were you using? Even assuming a clean hit (only 33% chance, mind!), you will be hard pressed to kill more than 10 orcs save for some very lucky dice rolls.

2 mortars. 2 turns. Decent dice rolls.

Oh btw, I play humans...so everything I do in game is "hard pressed."

Odominus
19-06-2010, 01:00
Ok have the book now. Literally. Doing a show on 8th Edition tonight...should be up sometime this weekend.

Here is a bit of depressing news for cannon owners. A small change to the cannon misfire chart:

1-2 Destroyed
3-4 Malfunction
5-6 May not shoot


:eyebrows:

UberBeast
19-06-2010, 01:10
I haven't looked at the new rules for cannons. Have they "fixed" cannon-sniping in any way?

Odominus
19-06-2010, 01:27
Not sure what you meant by "fixed"...do you mean removing the ability to aim at your target?

UberBeast
19-06-2010, 01:46
Not sure what you meant by "fixed"...do you mean removing the ability to aim at your target?

Specifically I mean, people targeting the ground right in front of a character and being able to nearly always hit him. Do cannons deviate right and left or do they still fire in a perfect line?

Dungeon_Lawyer
19-06-2010, 05:32
Another simulation today, and once again domination by WMs.

Todays MVP: Empire Mortar FTW! My opponents general's unit was shredded by turn 2.

Also, proud to report, I successfully launched 2 pigeon bombs and took out 8 then 12 nightgoblins! Sweeeet :eek:
some more observations....
Chameleon skinks are vastly improved due to the fact that you can spam units of five, they scout, can shoot w/a good bs, and are really really hard to hit. I was able to mitigate WM's in my rematch but the stonethrower hit every turn and obliderated [sic] 2 infantry units-(until chamleons took it out w/ poison shooting turn 5) but the stonethrower was mvp.

poison is aces against WM's now. Terradons drop rocks will be less important than the chance for javelins with poison...

Im looking forward to the new lores, cause im jhoping there is going to be some spells to attack WM's, they are dominating thus far.

Urgat
19-06-2010, 06:01
Specifically I mean, people targeting the ground right in front of a character and being able to nearly always hit him. Do cannons deviate right and left or do they still fire in a perfect line?

A d3 scatter would have been nice for canons, but no, nothing like that afaik.

jullevi
19-06-2010, 11:08
any idea how the stonethrower nerf will affect the hellcannon? Because it look like I will have to start running 2 of these badboys.

At the moment, it doesn't. Hellcannon fires as a Stone Thrower but with S5 instead of whatever reads in the rulebook. Following Monster and Handlers rule it is also not stripped out of crew as easily as War Machines.

If I remember correctly, Hellcannon also has Thunderstomp. And now that half points are gone, you need to kill the cannon to get any points from it. Before seeing the final errata/faq, it looks to me that Hellcannon has certainly gotten better.

Azhrar
19-06-2010, 11:21
That is going to cause some pain, then again the model is stupidly expensive ( and pts) as it is, and even in 7th it often ended up MVP for me.

really looking forward to this :). Cheers Jullevi

SeaSwift
19-06-2010, 11:43
Gunhammer? Definetely not.

One of the 6 scenarios has an objective in the middle of the table (Watchtower), which is tantamount to an auto-lose to Gunline armies. All the opponent needs to do is get a unit up behind the Watchtower and you can't see them (therefore can't shoot them) and they can take the objective. You lose.

Another is set up so that there is only a 12" space between the two armies: Even if your Gunline is set up deep into your own deployment zone you will have only 1 turn at most to shoot at the enemy (Fast Cavalry/Flyers/normal Cavalry will run straight through you). Then you are dead-ed. You lose.

1/3 of all standard missions end in a near-inevitable lose for you.

Axebearer
19-06-2010, 15:24
The underdog flame cannon for the dwarfs has risen from the dead to punish you fools for doubting it. Str 5 breath template no partials is deadly against the horde armies now. 25 Skaven Clanrats met their doom to one of these bad boys in 1 round then paniced off the table.

WarmbloodedLizard
19-06-2010, 15:45
My problem is more with the restrictions that a more powerful shooting phase causes. you can't hide from cannons/stonethrowers anymore. this makes normal monsters (non regenerating ones) pretty much useless against armies with warmachines. nothing can hide anymore, forcing you to take bigger units to arrive in combat with an effective unit. it restricts armylists a lot. (and that's not even including the ridiculous stubbornness of large units)
8th will be the edition of mass guns and huge units.

Odominus
19-06-2010, 16:46
1/3 of all standard missions end in a near-inevitable lose for you.

Wow that post was wrong in so very many ways. Yes if a person with no skill plays a gunline...your scenario *might* play out. But hey maybe that person sunk a few points in troops as well....


All the opponent needs to do is get a unit up behind the Watchtower and you can't see them (therefore can't shoot them) and they can take the objective. You lose.

LMAO! Wow that is truly funny:wtf:

SeaSwift
19-06-2010, 17:04
Wait - so you're just going to tell me that my argument is wrong 'in so many ways', because people with skill are magic?

And then laugh at my argument? Please, be nice.

So tell me, what is so laughable?

Odominus
19-06-2010, 18:08
Wait - so you're just going to tell me that my argument is wrong 'in so many ways', because people with skill are magic?

And then laugh at my argument? Please, be nice.

So tell me, what is so laughable?


I have the 8th ed brb in front of me as I type this. Have you seen the scenarios? I have. Sinking 800-900 pts in WM in no way invalidates any chance of winning.


And if a model goes behing a building...what...he slips into the twilight zone? None of my units can get to him?? thats laughable.

I'm trying to get into your head a bit and the only thing I can come up with is your argument must be based upon the predication that your opponent is somehow sinking the majority of his points into WM. Thats where you lose me. For less than a 3rd of my points, I can gift you with an extremely nasty shooting phase warmachine-style.


because people with skill are magic

In the entirety of our debate, this is the first time the word "magic" has even been used. So once again, you lose me. The one thing I do get: you don't like gunlines. Guess what, over the top gunlines...I dont like em either.

SeaSwift
19-06-2010, 20:05
About magic, no, I didn't mean literally that I think players can be magic. I can merely see very few scenarios in which you would be able to shoot at a unit hidden well behind a Watchtower, so you saying that with skill it is easy with no evidence, advice or even possibilities made me wonder what you meant. I was being sarcastic.

Have I seen the scenarios? No, I don't have an advance copy of the rule book, and please don't be condescending about the fact that you have - besides which I cannot tell how you having the 8th Edition Rule Book changes your argument at all.

Having 800-900 pts in War Machines does severely hamper your chances of winning in a game such as Watchtower where CC and magic will most likely be more useful (due to lack of LoS around the objective). It will be very difficult to be in a position where you can shoot a unit placed with a modicum of care behind (or even in) the Watchtower. Besides which, your example of sinking 800-900 pts in War Machines changes enormously with the points value allowed (out of 1000pts, that's a big deal, in 2000pts, it isn't).

You decide to scoff at me, then pretend 1/6 of the scenarios, and half of my argument, don't exist? In the scenario where the forces are 12" minimum away from each other you are likely to face a charge in Turn 2 against even the units deployed in the back of your deployment zone. If, like you say, there are 800-900 pts worth of Shooting units, then congratulations, assuming you only have <1201 pts (in a 200pt game, which I assume you are referring to) worth of Shooting/Magic units left, then you have lost 800-900 pts of units to fast moving units. Admittedly, with careful positioning, your War Machines would be more difficult to get to, but not really difficult, just harder.

Another example of fast moving units being able to envelope that Gunline is the scenario where Fast Cavalry and Flyers can 'Outflank', to inject a little 40K. They could easily muck up your Gunline in a turn. Not to mention that with Scouts being allowed to be placed in plain sight, one unit of Scouts getting the first turn could romp all the way through a lot of your 800-900 pts, presuming they are quite near each other (necessary with that number of War Machines, terrain and only a 6' length of board or less to deploy on). They could at least double their points' worth.

It will also be difficult to manage to sink 800-900 pts into Warmachines in <3000 pt games for the vast majority of armies, thanks to the no-spamming rule that doesn't allow you to take more than 3 of the same Special and 2 of the same Rare.

Lastly, all this talk of 'less than half of my army is a Gunline' is a bit silly, really. That is closer to a balanced army, which I have no problem with, and your argument against mine relies on the fact that you have other units to do the jobs shooting can't do. This is not a true Gunline in my percieved view of the world - if you rely on other things apart from Shooting/Moving to win your battles (within reason), it isn't Gunlines being overpowered, it's a good combination of your units - ie balanced gameplay.

If you are saying that having a balanced army is very good, with Shooting being one of the most useful parts of that, then by all means I have no issue with that, but stating that Gunlines are clearly overpowered when you aren't even talking about what I consider to be a proper Gunline is just...

PS How do you Multiquote? :p

WarmbloodedLizard
20-06-2010, 16:48
[...]
Lastly, all this talk of 'less than half of my army is a Gunline' is a bit silly, really. That is closer to a balanced army, which I have no problem with, and your argument against mine relies on the fact that you have other units to do the jobs shooting can't do. This is not a true Gunline in my percieved view of the world[...]

so a dwarf army with 2x10 thunderers, 2 canons, 2 gudge throwers and 2 organ guns is not considered a true gunline? wow, we sure have way different opinions on this.

SeaSwift
20-06-2010, 17:16
It depends on how big the army is whether that is considered a true gunline (everything is relative). Your army is not a gunline if you are using, say 3500pts and those are the only ranged units.

WarmbloodedLizard
20-06-2010, 21:57
of course I was talking about a standard 2250 game.

kaintxu
21-06-2010, 00:27
for me thats not a gunline is a warmachine heavy army, a gunline should have 30-40 thundererd quarrerels