PDA

View Full Version : A couple of minor but possibly big things I noticed in the BRB today.



Irish_Icicle
16-06-2010, 04:23
Calvary and Fliers have the swiftstride ability, this allows them to roll 3d6 and drop the lowest when charging, PURSUING and FLEEING.

The enemy sighted rule, if you try to march and fail your leadership test, you still count as marching, even if you don't move at all.

a lone wizard has to cast spells in their front arc, they cannot cast spells behind them (even if they don't require LOS) unless the spell says otherwise.

failed stupidity you go d6 foward, not half your movement.

failed charge you go the highest of your d6's rolled.




there was something about charges made because of frenzy measuring distance from the center of the unit, i have to reread that tomorrow, there was a lot of text to cover. it was like finals all over.


just a couple of minor details that were each about one sentence that could easily be overlooked.

Irish_Icicle
16-06-2010, 04:48
another thing i remembered, monster and hanlders rule is an interesting change for the DE hydra. if the monster suffers a wound, on a 5-6 it goes to a handler. i don't have a lizardmen book in front of me, but for salamanders i believed the handlers were hit on a 5-6, now there's a 33% that if the monster takes a wound the handlers take it. making the extra handler much much more worth it for 5 points.

despite the rumor of the HE having the 'Elite Army' rule, i saw it no where in the book, not until a "grand army" can they have more then 2 Bolt throwers and 2 Eagles.

edit; remains in play spells are just that; they remain in play. the only way to stop them after they have been succesfully cast is for the wizard who cast it to die, the unit which is affected by it dies, or the wizard decides to end it/cast it again. to make it clear, if you cast a remains in play spell, you can cast other spells freely. so curse of years/flames of the pheonix (and other such spells) if cast early enough can wreck a unit.

Paraelix
16-06-2010, 04:53
Army errata will come out later, not in the rulebook. As when the next HE book comes out, it will be superfluous. Furthermore, EDIT your post, don't doublepost.

Solar_Eclipse
16-06-2010, 07:06
edit; remains in play spells are just that; they remain in play. the only way to stop them after they have been succesfully cast is for the wizard who cast it to die, the unit which is affected by it dies, or the wizard decides to end it/cast it again. to make it clear, if you cast a remains in play spell, you can cast other spells freely. so curse of years/flames of the pheonix (and other such spells) if cast early enough can wreck a unit.

Hmm, are you sure you cant dispel it using your power dice?

Irish_Icicle
16-06-2010, 07:09
i'll read over the rules for dispelling tomorrow, but the rules for remains in play state nothing about dispelling once it's cast sucessfully.

I. Nailo
16-06-2010, 07:41
... I think I skimmed the book too fast...

That's an intriguing little tidbit I missed. All I remember is that dispel scrolls can only be used when the spell is cast. It strictly said that dispel scrolls cannot be used on "remains in play" spells in later turns.

Tae
16-06-2010, 08:11
another thing i remembered, monster and hanlders rule is an interesting change for the DE hydra. if the monster suffers a wound, on a 5-6 it goes to a handler.

That's how the 7th Ed rulebook covers it. Prepare for it to be errata'd to remain how it is now, no randomising to hit the beastmasters.

enyoss
16-06-2010, 09:05
despite the rumor of the HE having the 'Elite Army' rule, i saw it no where in the book, not until a "grand army" can they have more then 2 Bolt throwers and 2 Eagles.


I haven't managed to keep on top of the rumours, but is a `grand army' an army of 3000pts and over? If so, I wouldn't be too bothered about this; as it is I'm uneasy bringing three or four bolt throwers to a 2000pt game.

Geep
16-06-2010, 09:30
The beast handlers rule seems important- 1/3 of the wounds dealt to a monster will go the handlers, meaning you roll to hit and wound the monster, take the monster's save, then maybe just have it hit a handler instead?
That seriously toughens up the handlers.

Nicha11
16-06-2010, 10:31
edit; remains in play spells are just that; they remain in play. the only way to stop them after they have been succesfully cast is for the wizard who cast it to die, the unit which is affected by it dies, or the wizard decides to end it/cast it again. to make it clear, if you cast a remains in play spell, you can cast other spells freely. so curse of years/flames of the pheonix (and other such spells) if cast early enough can wreck a unit.

That sounds far to brutal, i don't believe it.

Why else would Comet have part of its description devoted to explaining that even though it is a RIP spell it can't be dispelled?

madden
16-06-2010, 10:50
Don't know about the dispel part but doom and darkness is now a remains in play and cast on 10 plus, -3 ld all the time ouch!

mrtn
16-06-2010, 11:23
Well, that would make the "turn into a dragon" spell viable, I wouldn't waste dice on it if I knew it would be dispelled the next turn.

nonrelatedarticle
16-06-2010, 12:33
I was wondering about the new ''march block'' where you take the ld test . Do immune to psychologies take this as well ?

willowdark
16-06-2010, 12:40
That sounds like a rather elegant and effective way to fix RiP spells, and actually makes them a powerful aspect of the magic phase.

Based on that description, having a RiP spell will be a huge drain on enemy dispels, since the spell is a must-dispel or it will be 'free' for every magic phase to come. Sounds like a big threat to help ensure that the other spells are more likely to get through. Damned if - damned if don't.

Odominus
16-06-2010, 13:08
That sounds like a rather elegant and effective way to fix RiP spells, and actually makes them a powerful aspect of the magic phase.

Based on that description, having a RiP spell will be a huge drain on enemy dispels, since the spell is a must-dispel or it will be 'free' for every magic phase to come. Sounds like a big threat to help ensure that the other spells are more likely to get through. Damned if - damned if don't.

And the mage can continue casting. Hellooo warrior priests and Arch Lectors:D

Avian
16-06-2010, 13:14
That's an intriguing little tidbit I missed. All I remember is that dispel scrolls can only be used when the spell is cast. It strictly said that dispel scrolls cannot be used on "remains in play" spells in later turns.
It explicitly says this in the current rulebook as well. :p

Deroga
16-06-2010, 13:24
If this is true then the whole ogre magic got alot better lol

TheSquall
16-06-2010, 13:39
Was wondering what the new rules on Terror checks are.

soots
16-06-2010, 13:56
Well, that would make the "turn into a dragon" spell viable, I wouldn't waste dice on it if I knew it would be dispelled the next turn.

Lol could you imagine it. Level 4 wizard beefs himself up and turns himself into an ancient dragon. Now with his spiffy 8 S8 attacks charges the empire spearmen. empire spearmen dispel it, and suddnely the level 8 wizard isnt looking so pretty with 1 S3 attack.

ChaosVC
16-06-2010, 14:11
Seems like almost everything revolves around dice now...

Skyros
16-06-2010, 14:29
Calvary and Fliers have the swiftstride ability, this allows them to roll 3d6 and drop the lowest when charging, PURSUING and FLEEING.

Isn't that *worse* than currently?

willowdark
16-06-2010, 14:31
Unless when fleeing and pursuing they add the dice roll to their basic Movement like in charging.

It jumped out at me too, and that was the only way I could rationalize it.

Leogun_91
16-06-2010, 15:49
You can dispell remains in play in the exact same way as now, sorry to disapoint some of you there but you can.

willowdark
16-06-2010, 15:51
In a world where PD are limited it's still a net advantage to a well placed RiP spell.

Leogun_91
16-06-2010, 15:55
Yes and the ability to cast more spells while maintaining a RIP spell is a great bonus.

willowdark
16-06-2010, 15:59
I think this is a place where the real strategy of the magic phase can be found.

jthdotcom
16-06-2010, 16:52
So, in the case of dispelling RiP spells in consequent turns, does that mean that if a wizard fails to cast a spell, meaning he can no longer cast in this phase, that he cannot dispel either using power dice!?

ChaosVC
16-06-2010, 17:21
While I see that the problem of having to invest on too many wizards solved, magic effectiveness is now more luck base then ever, any decision on investing in magic is fundamentally the same as placing your bet on the fastest horse or the one with best odds...crossing your fingers hopping for the best.

willowdark
16-06-2010, 18:05
I like my Sorceress on Peg with Focus Familiar a lot now. She might miscast, but she's alone so not a liability to others.

I might have to invest in a cheap Dreadlord for General so there isn't such a risk of loosing it to a miscast.

shakedown47
16-06-2010, 19:23
A couple of changes that I consider to be huge to the way the game is currently played I have yet to see mentioned:

Characters on steeds may no longer be imbedded INSIDE of units on 20mm bases; instead, they must be placed to the side. Not a gigantic difference, but a bit of a boon for units on 25mm bases, and potentially harmful to certain armies when combined with the following...

Units must now stay at least 1" apart from both enemy and FRIENDLY troops...VC may not like this, as well as some horde armies in regards to Ld.

Ranks are now counted AT THE END of combat, instead of at the beginning. This is a monumental change to how the game is played, and makes the new "stubborn if you have more ranks than opponent" rule a bit less powerful. 40 gobbos now have a lot less of a chance at static res than they did before.

Lastly, and this mostly only affects my WoC, but if you have a special close combat weapon (extra hand weapon, halberd, great weapon, spear, etc.) then you MUST use it instead of your hand weapon. If you have more than one special weapon you may choose which one to use, but the presence of a special weapons EXCLUDES the use of a shield for a parry bonus. No more loading up warriors and chosen with lots of options and then choosing to go defensive against a hard-hitting enemy. A bit less of a big deal because of our high Init and the stepping up rule, but still a change to be concerned about. Shields on units with special weapons are now purely for shooting defense.

Tae
16-06-2010, 20:27
Another few points I only noticed upon my 2nd reading:

- Charging an already fleeing unit does not cause them to flee again. If you catch them, they're destroyed.

- Characters nearby a unit (3") can get a 4+ "Look out sir!" roll, however I believe it's only infantry characters (the diagram had a bloodthirster not getting it but the Masque getting it)

- Spearmen can no longer opt to go hand weapon and shield instead. Special / magical combat weapons must be used, so no deciding not to use your spears in favour of a 6+ ward.


Edit:

You can dispell remains in play in the exact same way as now, sorry to disapoint some of you there but you can.

Can you cite a page reference for that one? As I don't remember reading that this afternoon (though will be having another, longer read tomorrow to double check).

Miredorf
16-06-2010, 22:21
i love how they force us to take stupid options because they cant make rules the right way... (talking about negating the chance of using a hand weapon, what no warrior would do anyway in a battle since a spear and a shield were a way way better option for fighting in tight formations.

skelezom
16-06-2010, 22:25
Can ward saves stack now?

Malorian
16-06-2010, 22:26
- Spearmen can no longer opt to go hand weapon and shield instead. Special / magical combat weapons must be used, so no deciding not to use your spears in favour of a 6+ ward.

That REALLY sucks... really wish I didn't have shields on my 50+ spearmen then :(

Tae
16-06-2010, 22:59
That REALLY sucks... really wish I didn't have shields on my 50+ spearmen then :(

You'll still have the 5+ from light armour and shield, you just wont get the 6+ ward save for hw&s bonus.


Can ward saves stack now?

Depends what ward save I believe. I think the MR and hw&s ward saves are both stackable with others (i.e. magic items) in the same way MoT does for WoC, but I don't believe you can stack it from 2 magic items.

Though this will make for some unusual rules questions on the face of it - i.e. a Dark Elf lord using HW&S and the Pendant on Khaleth being hit by a s5 object :p since Pendant pases on 1-5 and HW&S a 6 :D

(FYI the above isn't intended to be taken seriously, I'm well aware that the Pendant operates a 6 always failes rule)

Avian
16-06-2010, 23:00
That REALLY sucks... really wish I didn't have shields on my 50+ spearmen then :(
What has that got to do with anything? The spear doesn't stop you from using the shield.

Malorian
16-06-2010, 23:03
What has that got to do with anything? The spear doesn't stop you from using the shield.

I took them for the option, if I don't have the option I'd rather save the points.

papabearshane
16-06-2010, 23:10
Sadly I converted all my BFSP NGs into hand weapons....................Looks like i need another 200 or so Spear Gobbs..............

skelezom
16-06-2010, 23:14
Well, would it stack with something like warpaint for savage orcs?

Djekar
17-06-2010, 03:23
Same here, now I'm sad I converted all those speargitz. This is like the sad-making edition so far. I guess that will teach me to ever convert again!

Either that, or it means I'm not as done with my O&G as I thought.

kaintxu
17-06-2010, 03:40
Lastly, and this mostly only affects my WoC, but if you have a special close combat weapon (extra hand weapon, halberd, great weapon, spear, etc.) then you MUST use it instead of your hand weapon. If you have more than one special weapon you may choose which one to use, but the presence of a special weapons EXCLUDES the use of a shield for a parry bonus. No more loading up warriors and chosen with lots of options and then choosing to go defensive against a hard-hitting enemy. A bit less of a big deal because of our high Init and the stepping up rule, but still a change to be concerned about. Shields on units with special weapons are now purely for shooting defense.

your are not as affected as I am, you have the choice to buy alberd or shield or GW, my temple guard comes with alberd, shield and hand weapon and I DON'T get the choice to parry so its ever worse for me

Irish_Icicle
17-06-2010, 04:23
Well, would it stack with something like warpaint for savage orcs?

I don't believe it stacks with anything, MoT seems like it will though. Also if you're frenzied you can not gain benift from parry.

Omens
17-06-2010, 07:07
* If you have multiple ward saves you take the best. Magic resist adds to your ward save for spells only.

* Monstrous infantry get full attacks (up to 3 max) from the second rank.

* General on a monster increase general ld range to 18

* Terror is now essentially a panic test if it charges you (not sure what happens if you charge)

* Swarms now crumble if the lose combat like undead

* Remains in play spells can be dispelled in your turn and the opponents turn

* Hatred and frenzy dont transfer to mount from rider or from mount to rider. The whole model suffers from stupidity/fear/terror like normal.

ChaosVC
17-06-2010, 07:27
Kinda of like the no "either or" weapon selections. Now you must fight with what the unit is mainly equiped with. No more halberdier/spearman cum swordsman cum weenier options. Shields are still good investment against missiles anayway.

TroyJPerez
17-06-2010, 07:32
I need to take a second look at the book when I go to my local store tommow but I think I remember seeing that you only get points for units that are completely destroyed. Some people have been reporting that you still get half points like you do not but I don't think this is true. I will report back tommarow.

Leogun_91
17-06-2010, 11:22
Edit:


Can you cite a page reference for that one? As I don't remember reading that this afternoon (though will be having another, longer read tomorrow to double check).I memorized some rules but unfortunately not the page numbers.


* General on a monster increase general ld range to 18As long as it is a large target the range is 18, the same counts for BSB and the rules for it is listed at the large target special rule, the line at the rules for generals is just a reminder.

Cordantheman
17-06-2010, 11:49
If this is true then the whole ogre magic got alot better lol

Gut magic spam? lol

Havock
17-06-2010, 13:09
Lastly, and this mostly only affects my WoC, but if you have a special close combat weapon (extra hand weapon, halberd, great weapon, spear, etc.) then you MUST use it instead of your hand weapon. If you have more than one special weapon you may choose which one to use, but the presence of a special weapons EXCLUDES the use of a shield for a parry bonus. No more loading up warriors and chosen with lots of options and then choosing to go defensive against a hard-hitting enemy. A bit less of a big deal because of our high Init and the stepping up rule, but still a change to be concerned about. Shields on units with special weapons are now purely for shooting defense.

If true, this sucks balls and makes zero sense at all.
I get more and more this ominous feeling that 8th ed will shaft WoC, my one army, really good.
Unless I am willing to invest around 120 euros on a bunch of boxes. Notably marauders and warriors. Not sure if I am willing.

If the rumours I 'dread' are true, I'm out. There's a nice big box under my bed and I think my WoC army fits in there.

Frankly
17-06-2010, 13:27
Don't know about the dispel part but doom and darkness is now a remains in play and cast on 10 plus, -3 ld all the time ouch!


Ouch indeed, that'll even make dwarves think about L.d. tests.

The SkaerKrow
17-06-2010, 13:45
I get more and more this ominous feeling that 8th ed will shaft WoC, my one army, really good.Only if your army included minimal infantry and instead relied on a high concentration of cavalry. Things are looking better and better for Warriors of Chaos infantry right now.

Havock
17-06-2010, 13:57
Only if your army included minimal infantry and instead relied on a high concentration of cavalry. Things are looking better and better for Warriors of Chaos infantry right now.

It did indeed. I have one unit of marauders and one unit of warriors.

Leogun_91
17-06-2010, 14:26
It did indeed. I have one unit of marauders and one unit of warriors.12 Knights (one rank), mark of Khorne. That's 37 attacks from the riders and 24 from the horses (unless frenzy changes in that aspect, didn't check that) compare that to the 51 that a horde unit of Helfs can deal and remember that those Helfs are a very extreme case of horde unit. In addition you have a great save.

Mathhammer time:
You charge, Helfs strike first
25,5 hit
8,5 wound
1,42 dies, that is closer to 1 then two so one dies

Knights strike back
22,66 hit
15,11 wound
15 die

Chaos Steeds strike back
11 hit
7,33 wound
6,11 die

thats 21 dead elfs vs 1 dead knight, even though the elfs will be stubborn that isn't too bad.

Next round
Helfs strike first
30 Attacks
15 Hits
5 wounds
0,83 dies (rounded up to 1)

Knights strike back
31 attacks
20,66 hits
13,77 dies (rounded up to 14)

Horses strike back
20 Attacks
10 hits
6,66 wounds
5,55 dies (rounded up to 6)

20 Elfs dies, elfs no longer have more ranks then the knights. Elfs lose by 19.

Havock
17-06-2010, 14:39
12 Knights (one rank), mark of Khorne. That's 37 attacks from the riders and 24 from the horses (unless frenzy changes in that aspect, didn't check that) compare that to the 51 that a horde unit of Helfs can deal and remember that those Helfs are a very extreme case of horde unit. In addition you have a great save.

Thats a 500+ point unit that si also incredibly unwieldy.
Counterproposal: 6 Knights of [mark], banner of rage, BSB with the reroll to hit banner.

Murder the **** out of the them :)

Zinch
17-06-2010, 14:41
12 Knights (one rank), mark of Khorne. That's 37 attacks from the riders and 24 from the horses (unless frenzy changes in that aspect, didn't check that) compare that to the 51 that a horde unit of Helfs can deal and remember that those Helfs are a very extreme case of horde unit. In addition you have a great save.

Mathhammer time:
You charge, Helfs strike first
25,5 hit
8,5 wound
1,42 dies, that is closer to 1 then two so one dies

Knights strike back
22,66 hit
15,11 wound
15 die

Chaos Steeds strike back
11 hit
7,33 wound
6,11 die

thats 21 dead elfs vs 1 dead knight, even though the elfs will be stubborn that isn't too bad.

Next round
Helfs strike first
30 Attacks
15 Hits
5 wounds
0,83 dies (rounded up to 1)

Knights strike back
31 attacks
20,66 hits
13,77 dies (rounded up to 14)

Horses strike back
20 Attacks
10 hits
6,66 wounds
5,55 dies (rounded up to 6)

20 Elfs dies, elfs no longer have more ranks then the knights. Elfs lose by 19.

A lot of sources have confirmed that frenzy don't transfer to mounts in this edition.

Also, this is not "mathhammer", this is "dreamhammer"... a unit of 12 chaos knights in a rank? Against which units will them all be in contact?

Jedi152
17-06-2010, 14:45
Have they fixed any stuff that actually needs changing, like flaming weapons, line of sight for spells and base sizes?

Sounds like they made an attempt to fix LOS for spells.

Leogun_91
17-06-2010, 15:28
A lot of sources have confirmed that frenzy don't transfer to mounts in this edition.

Also, this is not "mathhammer", this is "dreamhammer"... a unit of 12 chaos knights in a rank? Against which units will them all be in contact?Horde units

a18no
17-06-2010, 15:34
Make your math with 6*2 for the knight in the first turn THEN reform and do full wide. Could be more real

6 knights full attack, plus 6: 25 attack on 3+/2+/no armor, 6 from horse 4+/3+/save at 6+
51 Hig elf: ALWAYS REROLL cause knight are Ini 5 (according to some people, ASF with equal ini or higher can reroll) so: 75%/5+/save at 2+

You charge, Helfs strike first
38.25 hit
12.75 wound
2.13 dies, 2 dead

Knights strike back (23 attack)
13 dead
Chaos Steeds strike back
2 dead

thats 15 dead elfs vs 2 dead knight


Next round
Helfs strike first
1,5, so 2 dead

Knights strike back (after full reform, so 8 wide)
25 attacks
14 dies

Horses strike back 8 attack
10 hits
2 dead

16 Elfs dies, still stubborn (1 rank)

Third round
19 Helfs strike first, 20 attacks
.83, so 1 dead

7 Knights strike back
22 attacks
12 dies

Horses strike back 7 attack
2 dead

14 Elfs dies, 5 must roll on double 1

Final:
45 dead HE: 405 pts
5 knight dead: assuming more than 100pts

Knigth are better, but special against core unit, more point in knight than in high elf, and full armor combine with T4 is hard for elf

Conclusion: a horde of high elf (near 500 pts) can handle a charge of 500+pts of chaos knight and wait till their next turn for back up... not bad !

Leogun_91
17-06-2010, 20:56
Make your math with 6*2 for the knight in the first turn THEN reform and do full wide. Could be more real

6 knights full attack, plus 6: 25 attack on 3+/2+/no armor, 6 from horse 4+/3+/save at 6+
51 Hig elf: ALWAYS REROLL cause knight are Ini 5 so: So are the Highelfs and as 5 isn't more then 5 there is no such bonus given. The knights are 560pts but you would manage with lower numbers.

Tae
17-06-2010, 21:50
I memorized some rules but unfortunately not the page numbers.

That's fine, I got a chance to look at it myself today and can confirm you are indeed correct.

Also another rule to note, your armour save can never improve beyond 1+.

Edit -re. spells. Spells are now rather well defined. All spells have the same starting point:
- Must be in the wizard's front arc
- Doesn't need LoS
- Must be within range
- Can't be cast into combat

Then spells are divided into subcatagories (magic missile, hex, etc.) and each of these has it's own rules which override the ones above (hex's don't need to be in the front arc, etc.)

And then some individual spells override the ones above. So basically it's fairly well explained.

Does the spell contain any special targeting rules/restrictions? If yes, obbey, if not go to spell type.
Check spell type for targetting rules.
Any areas not specifically mentioned then revert to the default.

There's now no longer the can he/can't he cast into combat arguments etc. for example.

Hakkapelli
18-06-2010, 01:20
A few other things I found out when test-playing the rules today.

Only models in B2B and directly behind may fight. Even when in horde.

Units in CC may reform at the end of the CC phase. If they won the CC round they may reform freely, otherwise they must pass a modified Ld test to reform.
-The consensus on the tactical use of this rule is to advance in column (deep ranks) to contact, in order to be stubborn if charged by something dangerous, and then reform to horde if needed. It seems that the age of fixed formations may be coming to an end with free reforms and diffrent bonuses for diffrent formations giving both the option and incinitive to change formation during the battle.

A unit that restrains pursuit/overrun may instead make a free reform.

A unit with Frenzy may attempt to avoid charging the closest enemy by taking a Ld check. If it pass it acts normally.

Lore of Beasts 6th spell, transformation of Kaboom (or something): the wizard turns into a dragon with pretty much an all 8 statline and a 2+ save. That was one nasty surprise.

sandeamon312
23-06-2010, 23:47
You have to use the special weapon? Now my stormvermin are even more useless as you can buy shields but they come standard with halberds.

Ellikka
23-06-2010, 23:57
Regarding the post in the begging about hits being transferred to the handler and the hydra, doesn't the rules in the DE Army Book trumf that?

Sygerrik
24-06-2010, 00:31
For magic, there are five types of spells: magic missiles, direct damage, hexes, augments and power vortices (that is the plural of vortex, look it up!)
Each spells may or may not need LOS, may or may not need the target to be in the arc, may or may not need to be in range, may or may not be able to be cast into combat, may or may not be castable on allies, and may or may not be castable on enemies.

Thankfully, I made me a chart.

Direct Damage
Arc? Yes
LOS? No
Range? Yes
Into combat? No
On friends? No
On enemies? Yes

Magic Missile
Arc? Yes
LOS? Yes
Range? Yes
Into combat? No
On friends? No
On enemies? Yes

Augment
Arc? No
LOS? Yes
Range? Yes
Into combat? Yes
On friends? Yes
On enemies? No

Hex
Arc? No
LOS? Yes
Range? Yes
Into combat? Yes
On friends? No
On enemies? Yes

Vortex
Arc? Yes
LOS? Yes
Range? Yes
Into combat? N/A
On friends? N/A
On enemies? N/A

Unwise
24-06-2010, 02:56
You have to use the special weapon? Now my stormvermin are even more useless as you can buy shields but they come standard with halberds.

If it is any consolation, they will now attack in two ranks, which makes halberds far more useful. Giving up +2 armor save for +1str on 6 attacks was not good, giving up the 6+ ward for +1str on 11attacks is far more worthwhile.

Add to this the fact that they will generally attack first these days and I think they are coming out ok in this edition. Still not good, but not worse.

GodlessM
24-06-2010, 03:02
First thing that has to be said; either something is big or it is minor, it can't be both.

Secondly, unfortunately this stuff is all known to the community already, but thanks for sharing nonetheless.

Havock
24-06-2010, 03:06
You have to use the special weapon? Now my stormvermin are even more useless as you can buy shields but they come standard with halberds.

Everytime I hear that rule a little voice in my head says "houserule".
It makes zero sense.

Gabacho Mk.II
24-06-2010, 04:36
For magic, there are five types of spells: magic missiles, direct damage, hexes, augments and power vortices (that is the plural of vortex, look it up!)
Each spells may or may not need LOS, may or may not need the target to be in the arc, may or may not need to be in range, may or may not be able to be cast into combat, may or may not be castable on allies, and may or may not be castable on enemies.

Thankfully, I made me a chart.

Direct Damage
Arc? Yes
LOS? No
Range? Yes
Into combat? No
On friends? No
On enemies? Yes

Magic Missile
Arc? Yes
LOS? Yes
Range? Yes
Into combat? No
On friends? No
On enemies? Yes

Augment
Arc? No
LOS? Yes
Range? Yes
Into combat? Yes
On friends? Yes
On enemies? No

Hex
Arc? No
LOS? Yes
Range? Yes
Into combat? Yes
On friends? No
On enemies? Yes

Vortex
Arc? Yes
LOS? Yes
Range? Yes
Into combat? N/A
On friends? N/A
On enemies? N/A


Very well done!


Thanks!!! :p

SilasOfTheLambs
24-06-2010, 04:53
I'm starting to wonder if my empire knights are going to be super-powerful now, considering that they're one of the few heavy cavalry units cheap enough to take in 2 ranks.

10x Knights with banner of +1 Movement and full command: 285 pts.

Warrior priest with kit to make him stubborn and hard to kill: 160 points.

Can break enemy ranks if they flank, 10 s5 hatred attacks plus 2 more s4 from the priest. Also, they have the best armor save there is.

I'm sure there's some huge fly in my ointment but I'm enjoying it for the moment.

ChaosVC
24-06-2010, 05:30
Everytime I hear that rule a little voice in my head says "houserule".
It makes zero sense.

Actually it is a rule to enforce players to use their special weapons probably due to the trend back in 7th and 6th ed. Units of spearman, axe-man and halberdiers became swordsman when they realize that its benefits them better to do so under most circumstances, better odds of survival under critical situations thanks to shield. And eventually those special weapons drop out of favor and became secondary weapon despite the intended designs for the special weapons to be the main tool for the task.

This new rule is here to enforce players to artificially adopt the special weapon as their primary weapon and reduce the option of using shield to just a handy defense against range attacks. While it seems a little impractical in terms of tactical play, so is the trend back in 6th and 7th.

I canít help but feel that this might have to do with the flaws of the rules designs for special weapons and possibly strength vs model type designs.

Rogue
24-06-2010, 20:01
When I was going through it the other day, I did not see where a unit can make a turn manouver. Was that just me and I missed where it was discussed or did they really get rid of that? Is this also part of their weird set of movement rules as well?

Malorian
24-06-2010, 20:04
Everytime I hear that rule a little voice in my head says "houserule".
It makes zero sense.

Personally I like it.

I always hated waiting for someone to decide when weapon they were going to use, and when both side had to decide it was unclear who had to pick first.

Now it's 100% straight forward.

Rogue
24-06-2010, 20:05
Either that, or it means I'm not as done with my O&G as I thought.

Are you ever really done with O&G armies once you start it?

Malorian
24-06-2010, 20:09
Are you ever really done with O&G armies once you start it?

Once you go grean you never go back ;)

(Although it's really tempting to start WoC now...)

LevDaddy
24-06-2010, 20:11
For magic, there are five types of spells: magic missiles, direct damage, hexes, augments and power vortices (that is the plural of vortex, look it up!)
Each spells may or may not need LOS, may or may not need the target to be in the arc, may or may not need to be in range, may or may not be able to be cast into combat, may or may not be castable on allies, and may or may not be castable on enemies.

Thankfully, I made me a chart.

Direct Damage
Arc? Yes
LOS? No
Range? Yes
Into combat? No
On friends? No
On enemies? Yes

Magic Missile
Arc? Yes
LOS? Yes
Range? Yes
Into combat? No
On friends? No
On enemies? Yes

Augment
Arc? No
LOS? Yes
Range? Yes
Into combat? Yes
On friends? Yes
On enemies? No

Hex
Arc? No
LOS? Yes
Range? Yes
Into combat? Yes
On friends? No
On enemies? Yes

Vortex
Arc? Yes
LOS? Yes
Range? Yes
Into combat? N/A
On friends? N/A
On enemies? N/A

Great breakdown, thanks for that.

A question - Can something be Arc - No, LOS - Yes? Are they not dependent? Please explain.

Maoriboy007
24-06-2010, 20:57
Everytime I hear that rule a little voice in my head says "houserule".
It makes zero sense.

If it starts saying things like "burn the world" then its time to worry :)

andyg2006
24-06-2010, 21:28
Regular cavalry in ranks get the usual +1 attack from the riders in the 2nd rank, but only the 1st rank's (not the 2nd rank's) steeds attack.
Hope this helps.

Skyros
24-06-2010, 21:37
You have to use the special weapon? Now my stormvermin are even more useless as you can buy shields but they come standard with halberds.

Stormvermin are an excellent unit in 8e. They got majorly improved. High WS, Str, armor save, and I for core choices.

The shield will help you against shooting and magic, and you are far from the only unit who comes standard with two handed weapons but has the option to buy shields.

Sygerrik
24-06-2010, 22:43
Great breakdown, thanks for that.

A question - Can something be Arc - No, LOS - Yes? Are they not dependent? Please explain.

Arc means the target must be in your front arc-- that is, the 90 degrees in front of you. Line of sight means it must not be blocked by, say, terrain. Your LOS is not only within your arc, although for most practical purposes LOS outside of the arc is discarded because most attacks that require LOS also require the target to be in your arc.