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Solar_Eclipse
16-06-2010, 04:27
Hello there, i dont post much in the fantasy sections, but 8th edition has really gotten me interested again and i would like to post my thoughts on how the Dwarfen army will change with the 8th edition rules.

Basically what i was doing was dicehammering a few basic encounters using my old list, i was seeing what a unit of 40 Orks (10 across) with dual choppas would do against a unit of 25 Ironbreakers (5 across) with Rune of battle.

Now after a number of test runs i found that while the Ironbreakers would probably eventually win this matchup, there was a problem. The Ironbreakers would leave the combat less than half of what they started with from casualties.

I realised that the Horde rule is actually going to be quite a decider of games from now on, because the guaranteed 4 combat res from ranks and standard isnt really going to cut it anymore, Dwarfs used to rely on Heroes to do the kills while the units sat there and took it.

With the emphasis on kills, i wanted to see if i could make a dwarf army which will be able to take the fight to the enemy and win combats based on kills and ive found that Dwarfs can actually do it quite well if they utilize the horde rule.

So with a 3000 point list (i always played 3000 already, so its no big loss) i started out with the standard Lord:


Lord
Great weapon
Shieldbearers
MR Kragg the Grim
Rune of Snorri Spanglehelm
Rune of Might
MR of Steel
Rune of Stone
Total- 301

He isnt going to change much at all as he is one of the peaks of reliability.

Then i got to heroes and i found that my idea changed of them, rather than making them combat monsters to do the damage my units didnt, ive changed them into supporting characters, mostly there for the Oathstone.

Thane
Battle Standard Bearer
Oathstone
Rune of Gromril
Master Rune of Dismay
Total- 160

Thane
Oathstone
Great weapon
Rune of Stone
Master Rune of Challenge
Total- 119

Runesmith
Great weapon
Rune of balance
Rune of warding
Total- 139

Dragon Slayer
Rune of Striking
2x Runes of Speed
Total- 70

The Thanes, lord and Runesmith each pick one of my large units and provide combat support, an oathstone (for possible destructive flanks and more importantly the Magic resistance) and in the case of the runesmith, magical protection.

On the topic of magic, Dwarfs have it made almost, with +2 dispel dice each turn, a large amount of unused power dice to dispel remains in play spells and the rune of balance we have not much to fear from the new magic phase, even if a few of the spells look...nasty to say the least.

The Dragon slayer is there like i always have, Ws7 for 5's to hit against ws3 enemies, Initiative 6 to strike first against Champions he challenges. 70 points of stalling and possibly even doing a wound or 2 to a big monster.

So ive found that my Hero choices have become alot cheaper because they no longer need to take up the slack of my units.


Core- 1010 points

30 Dwarf Warriors
Shields
Great weapons
Full Command
Total- 355

30 Dwarf Warriors
Shields
Great weapons
Full Command
Total- 355

10 Thunderers
Shields
Total- 150

10 Thunderers
Shields
Total- 150

Units of 30 Dwarfs lose out on the last rank of combat res, but they gain 3 ranks of either S3 or S5 attacks, which is a massive gain, with 21 attacks+ a hero against 5 wide enemy units to 30 attacks +hero against 8-10 wide enemy units. The flexibility of shield and great weapon means that you can choose what to use against what enemy. Dwarfs are naturally resiliant to most attacks, high Ws, toughness and Heavy armour means that alot of the time we could pick Great weapons with only a small number of casualties different. Ie. a unit of Spear Elves (28 men, 7 across) would use 29 attacks, hit with 22 of them (rerolls for ASF and higher initiative), wound with 6-7 and then around 4-5 would be saved if shields are used, or 1-2 wound be saved from Great weapons. After that the return attacks would be around (if using great weapons, as i would) 26 attacks, 13 hits, 10 to 11 wounds and each of these would be kills.

Combat res would then be Elves 1 rank (ranks bonus is checked after kills), standard and 4 kills, thus 6, compared to the dwarf res of 2 ranks, standard and 11 wounds, thus 14, an 8 point difference that would in all probability leave the elves running for their lives.



The thunderers are there to pick on Knights, fast cav, large monsters, anything i need a few wounds on or are easy to kill. Shields make them much harder to take down.


Special- 990 points

30 Ironbreakers
Full Command
Master Rune of Grugni
Total- 470

30 Ironbreakers
Full Command
Rune of Warding
Rune of the Ancestors
Total- 445

Bolt thrower
Engineer
Rune of penetrating
Rune of fire
Total- 90

Bolt thrower
Engineer
Total- 60

Grudge Thrower
Rune of penetrating
Rune of Accuracy
Rune of fire
Total- 135

Here is where all of the magic resistance makes sense. Utilizing the Runesmith, the banner of warding and the 2 oathstones, each of the large units has Magic Resistance 1, which is a 6+ ward save against any damaging spell, which isnt bad, but is not great.

Now add to this the bonus from the Banner of Grugni, which allows a 5+ ward save against shooting magical attacks and each of the major units has a 4+ ward save to damaging spells, which means that you can concentrate your dispelling efforts on the buffs and hexes, while taking the damage from some of the stronger spells.

The Ironbreakers are both incredibly powerful units, with 30 Ws5 S4 attacks and a 3+ save with parry, they are able to do alot of damage to whomever they come into combat with.

Consider 14 Swordmasters, 22 attacks equals 15 attacks, 10 wounds 3-4 saves and 1 parried, so around 4-5 casualties, then 26 attacks back become 13 hits, 8-9 wounds and around 6-7 casualties, before characters.

The Grudge thrower is S10 in the middle and S4 all around, still being able to do damage above and beyond the points you pay for it, especially with the rerollable scatter die.

The Bolt throwers can destroy most enemy monsters and, if one is placed on a flank, even hit a flank of a unit such as knights and do considerable damage.

Anyway, this is long winded, so i will wrap it up.

The new rules encourage games to have variable sized units to do more damage according to their units stats, and i believe that dwarf armies would profit greatly from having much larger units to dominate close combat against the enemy, especially with their magical resistance, their ward save against shooting and the new charging rules means that they are not going to be shot to death, magicked to death or even outmaneuvered so often.

Thank you for reading, i hope i helped.

Paraelix
16-06-2010, 04:36
Take a BSB. Take Strollaz Rune. Take the second turn and charge.

Darnok
16-06-2010, 04:43
Thread moved to Warhammer Tactics.


Darnok [=I=]

Solar_Eclipse
16-06-2010, 05:14
Thanks Darnok, i guess this might make more sense.

@Paraelix:

What? What on earth are you talking about? What will you do when you get there? probably lose the combat due to not having a unit able to make enough kills?

Please could you read the thread and make a good reply and think about what you are saying.

This is not about who charges first, its about how the Dwarf army manages combat, which is something worthy of discussion...

Sorry about that everyone, but that post really annoyed me...

Ghazbad_Facestompa
16-06-2010, 05:50
Sounds like an interesting list to play against. Way more fun than some zoggin' gunline.

LaughinGremlin
16-06-2010, 06:56
You may not agree with one's advice or his delivery style, but flaming him and basically suggesting that he is an ignoramus also lacked a certain sense of style and grace. If we wish that we could "take back" things we've said because we are truly "sorry" for them, then we would hit the "edit" button, no?

You could have stopped after your first criticism. Assuming that he put no thought into it could be interpreted as being harsh. I hope that my criticism is seen as constructive, for THAT is the intent.

I do, however, appreciate your thoughts regarding your dwarf list.

To answer your rhetorical question, a very expensive horde of 50 dwarfs with the stone to negate its flanks and the strollaz banner WOULD be different to say the least.

Solar_Eclipse
16-06-2010, 07:04
You may not agree with one's advice or his delivery style, but flaming him and basically suggesting that he is an ignoramus also lacked a certain sense of style and grace. If we wish that we could "take back" things we've said because we are truly "sorry" for them, then we would hit the "edit" button, no?


huh? i thought it was appropriate since what he said did not actually have very much relevance to the theory i was saying. And no, i was apologising to the possible others in the thread because i felt that many would agree with me that his post was, on the whole, unhelpful and not conductive to discussion of what i had said.



To answer your rhetorical question, a very expensive horde of 50 dwarfs with the stone to negate its flanks and the strollaz banner WOULD be different to say the least.

I disagree, the points spent on the Strollaz rune banner isnt worth it, advancing too far ahead at the start means that you will be outmanouvred alot easier. Strollaz rune was, in my perspective, a failed experiment on behalf of GW.

LaughinGremlin
16-06-2010, 07:15
Now, THAT was a very constructive criticism. I sincerely give you applause for what you have given me (that is respect, even if it is undeserved by me). Yes, some guy hijacking your thread, suggesting something entirely different than your original post, can be disturbing to some posters. Usually, these posts are either ignored, or there is reasoning used when dismissing the post. Your reasoning that you've shown me in your reply and in your own list is good, as I've mentioned.

geldedgoat
16-06-2010, 07:33
One thing you may want to consider: rumors point to units only being able to use one kind of weapon for close combat... ever. That means the versatility of the shield-and-great-weapon combo is gone the way of the dodo.

Solar_Eclipse
16-06-2010, 07:35
Gelded Goat:

Really? How does that work? You pick what weapon you use in your first combat? or in the list?

Thats a really strange ruling, really.

Ill have to look more into that, thanks.

Edit: Crap, i guess you are right, if you have a great weapon (or any weapon beyond a Hand weapon) you HAVE to use it.

Thats annoying.

Hmm, is it worth keeping shields on Warrior groups for purely Shooting protection?

geldedgoat
16-06-2010, 08:33
I honestly have no idea. I play WoC, not dwarves, and I'm having to make a similar decision with my warrior blocks.

Some other changes of great importance to keep in mind: 1) shields no longer confer the same parry bonus in melee, and 2) charging won't ignore your initiative any more. You have nothing to boost the new parry wardsave, so shields are of slightly less value. However, you will always be striking last with the great weapons, no matter how you maneuver, so your giant hammers and axes have also lost value. I'm thinking about picking up dwarves as my new army, so this choice frustrates me as well.

shelfunit.
16-06-2010, 08:56
I think the mechanism for the only being able to use one weapon in combat was from a rumour (or fact, not sure...) about if you purchase a weapon upgrade you must always use it in combat if possible. I may have to look at that Dragon slayer rune combo - looks like it may be pretty good in 8th.

geldedgoat
16-06-2010, 09:13
Oh, and I apologize, I completely forgot to comment on the nature of the OP.

I don't think dwarves will benefit as much by moving to Horde-style units, as the troops aren't really cheap enough to do so throughout the entire army. At 3000 points, I could see the wisdom in having a single Horde unit to anchor your line to, but I wouldn't use more than the one. Dwarf units are slower than normal to begin with, and if you place almost your entire points allowance (2344 out of 3000 in your proposed list) into 4 large, slow, unwieldy units, you're just begging your opponent to lead you around the board.

Solar_Eclipse
16-06-2010, 10:14
I honestly have no idea. I play WoC, not dwarves, and I'm having to make a similar decision with my warrior blocks.

Some other changes of great importance to keep in mind: 1) shields no longer confer the same parry bonus in melee, and 2) charging won't ignore your initiative any more. You have nothing to boost the new parry wardsave, so shields are of slightly less value. However, you will always be striking last with the great weapons, no matter how you maneuver, so your giant hammers and axes have also lost value. I'm thinking about picking up dwarves as my new army, so this choice frustrates me as well.

Parry is an interesting change: its exactly the same as adding +1 to your armour, except it works better against High strength infantry because it cant be reduced.

ie. Heavy armour+shield is exactly the same against infantry of any strength up to 8 or more (or ignoring armour save attacks or armour modifiers up to -5), in which it gets better.

Although it doesnt work on anything other than Infantry, which limits its usefulness slightly.

Great weapons, i find, will be very powerful, especially with the inherent defensive power that dwarfs have (Ws4 T4 5+ save is still quite hard to get around) and if i add that with 30 models all attacking, then Great weapons become something to fear, being able to take on pretty much anything quite well, even dragons (30 attacks, 15 hits, 5 wounds at Toughness 6 with around 2-3 wounds against 3+ scaly skin, and thats just a basic warrior)

yes, going last is harsh, but its not so bad and it almost guarantees you the ability to cause massive damage in each turn.

Also, Due to the new rules, Dwarfs are not exactly so slow anymore, and their high Ld means they will be better than most armies at reforming and other such actions after combat, all of which require a Ld test.

Novrain
16-06-2010, 14:36
I happen to think that toughness 4 will be the making of dwarves in this edition. There will be more attacks happening, therefore more hits. Armour got slightly weaker / stayed the same, but Dwarves remain one of the few armies with blanket toughness 4. the ridiculous numbers of strength 3 attacks we will see happening between combat blocks will still have a difficult time actually getting kills...

shartmatau
16-06-2010, 15:08
I like the idea of your list. I have been playing infrequently in 7th but my list was actually similar to the one you posted, at least in theory. I don't use iron breakers but instead have more longbeards.

For quite awhile I have been running with blocks of 25 warriors or longbeards as blocks of 5x5. That proved to be very resilient in 7th. For 8th I don't see the problem with boosting some of them to blocks of 30, 10x3. But for the most part I will be remaining with blocks of 25 and quite possibly adding in some 12 man units, 6x2, to attempt flank charges.

Sorry if this is answered somewhere else but I have not been keeping up with all the rumors. How are dispel dice being generated? do dwarves still naturally have more?

lastly, I think Strollas is worth a thought. I have used it to some success previously. I dont really use it to get charges but instead to maneuver for an advanced defensive position. Essentially cutting off a section of the board. Not sure if it will be standard for me (it never really was before) but I will be trying it out for the same purpose.
cheers.

Vsurma
16-06-2010, 15:51
Yea not a bad army wide strat imo, using the new rules to your advantage.

Solar_Eclipse
16-06-2010, 16:16
I happen to think that toughness 4 will be the making of dwarves in this edition. There will be more attacks happening, therefore more hits. Armour got slightly weaker / stayed the same, but Dwarves remain one of the few armies with blanket toughness 4. the ridiculous numbers of strength 3 attacks we will see happening between combat blocks will still have a difficult time actually getting kills...

Definitely, things which have S3 will have a tough time killing us, things with S5 or more are usually points heavy enough that the few casualties we take will be nothing compared to the amount we could cause.

Look at, say, a unit of 14 Chaos Chosen Warriors with Mark of Khorne and Halberd. 29 attacks, 19 hits, 13 wounds, 13 kills against Warriors with Great weapons, who fight back, 18 attacks, 9 hits, 6 wounds and 1 of those will be saved, 5 casualties.

13+Standard= 14 combat res.
5+Standard+1 rank= 7 combat res.

Yes it is a loss, but that is an elite enemy unit compared to our basic one.

Same unit against the Ironbreakers:

29 attacks, 19 hits, 13 wounds, 4 saves, 2 parried.
Attacks back is 24 attacks, 12 hits, 6 wounds, 4 deaths.

Chosen do 7+ standard=8
Ironbreakers do 4+2 ranks+Standard=7

Hardly a difference, and easy to hold the unit there and grind it down.

Yes, there are units that do fighting better than we will, but all around we have bother defense and offense in a good way.

Especially since small units like that Chosen one are Thunderer bait to the extreme.

djkest
16-06-2010, 16:27
I'm wondering if cannons, gyrocopters, and flame cannons aren't going to still be the best war machines with the "no partials" rule. What do you think about that?

Also I am planning on taking more of a gunline but we'll have to do some play testing and see how viable that could be.

For the points, I'm wondering if thuderers are just plain better than quarrellers. Extra range and AP for only 3 points more. If I can pump out 40 shots per turn for every 1,000 points, that's my goal. Then again, only 1/2 hit, and only 1/2 of those hits will wound per turn.

Solar_Eclipse
16-06-2010, 16:41
I'm wondering if cannons, gyrocopters, and flame cannons aren't going to still be the best war machines with the "no partials" rule. What do you think about that?


Cannons do D6 wounds now, it seems, so its good for combating all of those monsters that are appearing. Give it a rune of Forging and a Rune of Flame and bam, you can take out what you need.

Although personally i prefer bolt throwers to cannons, more reliable. Gyros will be more about combat and less about March blocking, Appearing there to to suddenly blast a unit from the side is quite the feat.

Flame cannon is powerful like the Gyro, but i think the flame cannons never suffered from the difficulty of creating casualties, its the lack of any real way of targetting them accurately which hurts them.

Organ guns still rock, they take out skirmishers, light cav, Single models, Monsters and anything really that annoys you with around 5-6 wounds.

Grudge throwers are great, I think it would be interesting to see if Thrower+2x Penetrating runes+rune of accuracy (155 points) would be worth it for the incredibly accurate S10 (5) hits it could dish out, thats enough to ignore Light armour+shield or heavy armour, which would mean instakills on most infantry in the game, demolishing Empire, Elves of the chocolate and vanilla variety, Marauders, Some Daemons, basically anything with a Toughness of 3 or 4 and not much armour.


Also I am planning on taking more of a gunline but we'll have to do some play testing and see how viable that could be.


Gunlines are possible, but its hard to make friends sometimes.

try to make sure your army still uses a number of Fighting units, not just blocks of shooting.

Or, if you wish, you could try something ive been considering.

20 Quarrellers, Great weapons, full command= 285 points.

use them 10x2 and hammer your enemy with shot after shot, if they charge, you still have 21 Ws4 S5 attacks.

worth it? I dunno, but still damn fun to think about.

djkest
16-06-2010, 16:50
With no partials miner's demo packs could be interesting, and still viable to get at the flanks/rear of those big blocks, especially now that smaller units will not be able to deny rank bonus.

My gunline would be more like a hybrid gunline with some blocks of troops and miners, and no anvil of doom or whatever.

Putting great weapons on quarrellers could be interesting, the missile unit that no one wants to charge.

I think the real loser in 8th is going to be Cav of all types and flavors. Not sure if Brets will be OK or not.

As the rules stand right now, dwarves would get the higher die of a 2d6 roll (probably 4-5 on average) + 2 for being dwarves. Other races only get extra dice on the roll of a 6 for each wiz. So dwarves will have more than most for free.

Solar_Eclipse
16-06-2010, 16:53
as a dwarf and only a dwarf player, Cavalry can go hang :P its what they get for being so far off the ground.

geldedgoat
16-06-2010, 17:12
Parry is an interesting change: its exactly the same as adding +1 to your armour, except it works better against High strength infantry because it cant be reduced.

It's been awhile since I've messed with probability, so I may embarrass myself with the following...

Edit: I rechecked my numbers, and I believe these new ones are correct. For heavy armor and shield, the new parry bonus is worse for S1-5, equivalent for S6, and better for S7 and above. For gromril armor and shield, the new parry bonus is worse for S1-6, equivalent for S7, and better for S8 and above.

Chance to save with heavy armor and shield:
S1-3 (old): 67%
S1-3 (new): 58%

S4 (old): 50%
S4 (new): 44%

S5 (old): 33%
S5 (new): 31%

S6 (old): 17%
S6 (new): 17%

S7-10 (old): 0%
S7-10 (new): 17%

Chance to save with gromril armor and shield:
S1-3 (old): 83%
S1-3 (new): 72%

S4 (old): 67%
S4 (new): 58%

S5 (old): 50%
S5 (new): 44%

S6 (old): 33%
S6 (new): 31%

S7 (old): 17%
S7 (new): 17%

S8-10 (old): 0%
S8-10 (new): 17%


Great weapons, i find, will be very powerful, especially with the inherent defensive power that dwarfs have

I'm thinking you're probably right here. With no way to off-set dwarves naturally low Initiative, GW probably are the best choice for them. If you're gonna be swinging second 95% of the time, you might as well be swinging hard!


Due to the new rules, Dwarfs are not exactly so slow anymore, and their high Ld means they will be better than most armies at reforming and other such actions after combat

But you have to get to combat first! ;) Honestly, having not seen all the changes to movement myself (including fleeing, failed charges, wheeling, etc) I don't know how well dwarves will be at getting to grips with their desired targets. Maybe units are more difficult to bait in 8th, I dunno.


Look at, say, a unit of 14 Chaos Chosen Warriors with Mark of Khorne and Halberd.

That was a bad unit to pick for a comparison. At the start of the game, Chosen will most likely get +1T, +1A, +1AS, +1S, or an extra 4+ ward save, all of which would dramatically affect your calculations. Then there's always the chance of them getting Fear or Terror, but I don't know how that affects lost combats in 8th.

djkest
16-06-2010, 17:18
Perhaps a better comparison would be 14 chaos warriors with FC and halberds. More simple that way.

(axe) and board dwarves will still be good for the extra armor I'm thinking though. Most of the units I end up buying will probably whatever is available in plastic.

And what were you meaning about flame cannons? It's the guessing that is going away too, so isn't that going to boost their effectiveness?

Solar_Eclipse
17-06-2010, 00:40
The guessing does go away, but the scatter really really hurts them

Flash Felix
17-06-2010, 01:18
So far my thoughts on Dwarfs in 8th Ed (assuming rumours are true, and many of them seem to be);

1. GW are close to essential for Dwarf Warriors, and probably for Longbeards too. Having no option, but to fight with them removes their flexibility, but the +2S greatly outweighs the loss of protection. Particularly for warriors, who only have 11 S3 attacks, which quite frankly, will do very little except against clanrats and goblins. With S5, they will wound T3 on 2s, and they'll have no armour save in many cases.

2. Grudgethrowers with RoAccuracy and RoPenetrating become almost obligatory as well. Get two, one with the RoFire, and while they are very expensive, those S4 no-partial templates will hit 55% of the time, covering some 21 20mm bases every time. At S4, that's 14 wounds to T3 troops, and 12 kills. It also meanst S10 hits against characters and monsters, again with a 55% chance of hitting. I think that'll be worth 295 points.

3. I'm not so sure that missile troops will be worth much, as it seems that most enemy units will be much larger (infantry) or less effective (cavalry and knights no longer breaking ranks). So 10 BS3 shots might not be worth the points, not when you can take an organ gun, or use the points from 20 Thunderers to get a unit of 25 GW Warriors instead. So I don't think that gunlines will be as useful. And with panic being harder to inflict, and charge ranges getting much bigger, there's less chance of breaking the enemy before they hit you either.

4. RoPreservation on our Dwarf Lords might become necessary due to Heroic Killing Blow and changes to the mundane KB. Damn it!

5. MRoGrugni will become even more useful for it's 5+ ward against that enemy shooting (which is nastier) and magic missiles (nastier again!). Add in a single MR1 rune on a character, and that unit will gain a 4+ ward vs magic missiles.

6. I had thought that the RotFurnace might no longer be useful. Having seen the Lore of Metal spells, I think that's wrong. It might remain as damn near essential to key characters after all.

7. The utility of Runesmiths will depend on whether Dwarfs are allowed multiple RoSpellbreaking (it seems that normal dispell scrolls are only allowed once per army), on whether they get a bonus to dispel as per mages and wizard lords, and finally, on what the MRoBalance does. If the latter is unchanged, it's going to be a very useful item indeed in countering a magic phase.

Dorack
17-06-2010, 08:04
Some points on the OP and other posts.

GTīs are now Str 9 on the center and Str 3 on the rest of the template, and it allows armor saves. Still, a great WM for itīs versatility.

For me, a Flame Cannon became a must have except against certain armies. The no partial hits and the panic rolls are full of win.

To the OP: If you are including a Dwarf Lord, I would change one unit of Ironbreakes for Hammerers: stubborn and no fear and terror are huge, and their Great Hammers will hurt a lot. Yes, they will take casualties, such is life.

I would seriusly consider MRo Valaya. Dwarfs donīt get +2 dispel dice, now itīs a flat +2 to dispel attempts. With Valaya, itīs up to +4. But most importantly, it will autodispel any remains in play spell that comes close. This is amazing to fend of things like the Purple Sun, but even more to revert a Wizard-turned-dragon to itīs original form in mid flight ;) .

Iīm seriously considering fielding a BSB with Valaya, Strollaz and Guarding, inside a unit of Longbeards away from the main battleline, in a central position as to maximize the BSB and Old Grumblers coverage and to keep it safe. The Longbeards Banner goes with MRo Grugni for more area of effect protection.

BTW, Iīm not sure if the BSB allows rerolling of Panic now. In that case, the BSB and Old Grumblers is redundant (still, Longbeards are a great BSB Bodyguard unit, even from fluff perspective). Edit: just checked Grimīs sticky and this is so. I guess Longbeardīs Old Grumblers are in for an errata or will change in the next armybook.