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macbeth
16-06-2010, 11:49
My question is very simple: when a Bull Centaur uses a GW, does he get +1S or +2?

Arguments for +1: In the beastmen book, the centigors are described as being cavalry with one profile. They get the save bonus for cavalry, etc... Sadly, centigors can't have GW, so it's difficult to compare...

Arguments for +2: in the RH list, they are described as "infantry with US 2". Moreover, they have access to a second hand weapon, which would be an impossible option if they were cavalry models.

So, any opinion?

__ALEX__
16-06-2010, 12:34
As far as I can understand it, mounted models will get +2S in 8th edition so it'll be the same either way for them in a couple of weeks! :)

Sir_Turalyon
16-06-2010, 12:52
Not this can of worms again... it was debated over and over without conclusion.

Arguments for +1 : rulebook says if it's on cavalry base, it's cavalry.

Arguments for +2 : Bull centaurs have second hand weapon option, which makes no sense for cavalry.

As GW never bothered to FAQ the problem, it's left hanging for us to interpret. By strict RAW it's +1, but it makes little sense.

best to agree upon it with opponent. Have second earthshaker ready in case you can't reach agreement :skull: .

Rochr
16-06-2010, 19:16
They get 2 Strength from their Great Weapons (4/6). This makes sense because they do NOT get the extra armour save from being "mounted" They only have a 5+ save with light armour and shield as baseline. This is upped to 4+ if you give them heavy armour instead of light. Looked it up in the old book.

Mike3791
16-06-2010, 20:44
They get 2 Strength from their Great Weapons (4/6). This makes sense because they do NOT get the extra armour save from being "mounted" They only have a 5+ save with light armour and shield as baseline. This is upped to 4+ if you give them heavy armour instead of light. Looked it up in the old book.

They DO get an extra armour save for being mounted, says so right in the army book! I agree that they get 2 strength, because it doesn't make sense for the spear and gw to do basiaclly the same thing for them.

Commodus Leitdorf
16-06-2010, 21:56
Theres what the rules say, and what we want the rules to say. For all intents and purposes Bull Centaurs should have +2str. They are very much a glasshammer unit...however thats not what the rules say. The rules are pretty clear they only get +1str.

But all of this is moot as 8th edition is a month away and they will be +2str again in no time.

Sir_Turalyon
17-06-2010, 08:57
It still won't solve two other questions (does extra hand weapons option do anything at all and does shield option provide bonus / ward save). At least one of three options will work without raising questions.

T10
17-06-2010, 09:24
There really isn't anything to discuss. Bull Centaurs in the Ravening Hordes list are specifically described as infantry models with US 2.

Case closed.

-T10

Sir_Turalyon
17-06-2010, 10:22
My copy of RH says only they are US2 pre model, no word on them being infrantry.

Milgram
17-06-2010, 10:28
I agree that they get 2 strength, because it doesn't make sense for the spear and gw to do basiaclly the same thing for them.

you realise that as they get +2 strength from the great weapon, the bonus provided by the spear enables them to attack with an additional rank if they do not move that turn.

Da Crusha
18-06-2010, 05:04
ok, as a chaos dwarf player that always uses bull centaurs at +2 Strength I have to prove it from time to time. so, in Warhammer Chronicles 2004 page 112 it says this:

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/edogtothemoon/cavnotcav.jpg

this is the most recent faq that gw had written regarding bull centaurs using equipment.

WLBjork
18-06-2010, 05:26
ok, as a chaos dwarf player that always uses bull centaurs at +2 Strength I have to prove it from time to time. so, in Warhammer Chronicles 2004 page 112 it says this:

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/edogtothemoon/cavnotcav.jpg

this is the most recent faq that gw had written regarding bull centaurs using equipment.

That ruling only applies to 6th edition.

In 7th, all models on a cavalry base are cavalry unless otherwise stated.

Thus Bull Cantaurs cannot benefit from fighting with a weapon in each hand, fight with +1S on the charge with spears, fight with +1S from great weapons ond don't get the additional +1 from hand weapon and shield.

Da Crusha
18-06-2010, 05:38
That ruling only applies to 7th edition.

In 8th, all models on a cavalry base are cavalry unless otherwise stated.

Thus Bull Cantaurs cannot benefit from fighting with a weapon in each hand, fight with +1S on the charge with spears, fight with +1S from great weapons ond don't get the additional +1 from hand weapon and shield.

actually I dont even think it applies to 7th ed. as much as it applies to ravening hordes itself... but its an endless debate.

.....unless I just ended it. ;)

Sir_Turalyon
18-06-2010, 09:45
Warhammer Chronicles 2004? It means that's a 6th edition ruling.

We all know that Bull Centaurs are intended to fight as infrantry with US2 - problem is, GW failed to write that into the army list (no need in 6th), then didn't bother to relaese FAQ to clarify that after 7th, when by RAW they became cavlary. Now they are about to do it again for 8th.

Da Crusha
18-06-2010, 22:02
in the actual chaos dwarf 7th ed FAQ bull centaurs are allowed to use equipment as infantry in independent GT's and gamesday..... not regular play...... I'd say discuss with opponent. If your opponent is worried about an extremely outdated army getting a bonus that should be rightfully theirs, then they have other problems.

Milgram
19-06-2010, 06:52
actual chaos dwarf 7th ed FAQ? there is no such thing. at least not from GW and if you use a non-gw FAQ you can go on and play with indie GT chaos dwarfs. and then it does not matter the slightest what is listed in the RH booklet...

metro_gnome
19-06-2010, 15:19
That ruling only applies to 6th edition.

In 8th, all models on a cavalry base are cavalry unless otherwise stated.

Thus Bull Cantaurs cannot benefit from fighting with a weapon in each hand, fight with +1S on the charge with spears, fight with +1S from great weapons ond don't get the additional +1 from hand weapon and shield.
This is correct... except it is my understanding that Cav gain +2S from GWs in 8th...
it is definitely correct for 7th ed... except of course that BCs cannot get spears...
but if they could they would be handled in this manner...

Grimstonefire
19-06-2010, 18:14
Well, technically they wouldn't benefit from +1 from HW and shield in combat anyway, and the only way they could use a single hand weapon is actually to upgrade to an additional hand weapon!?

I.e. They have to use the great weapon if they have it. This means they cannot parry. If they upgrade for free to the additional hand weapon, this may mean they cannot actually use it, so they would revert to the hand weapon and shield and be able to parry?

Griefbringer
19-06-2010, 20:19
Not having the Chaos Dwarf PDF at hand... does it explicitely state that they do not come with a hand weapon?

Since in 6th and 7th edition all models are supposed to come with a hand weapon, even if their profile fails to mention it, unless explicitely ruled otherwise (eg. 6th edition orcs who got choppas instead).

Grimstonefire
19-06-2010, 20:57
They do come with a hand weapon, but the GW is compulsory unless you swap it out for an additional (for free).

I did actually come up with an idea for this, I spotted in the Bols video preview a new special rule called 'extra attack'.

Seeing as I'm working on an 8th ed RH errata, I'm tempted to put that they can choose between the Great Weapon, or upgrade to gain the Extra Attack special rule for free. This would take the fact that is it an additional hand weapon out of the equation.

I'm not sure what the exact wording is though.

Da Crusha
20-06-2010, 01:28
actual chaos dwarf 7th ed FAQ? there is no such thing. at least not from GW and if you use a non-gw FAQ you can go on and play with indie GT chaos dwarfs. and then it does not matter the slightest what is listed in the RH booklet...

Is this not the 7th ed faq?

WLBjork
20-06-2010, 09:21
This is correct... except it is my understanding that Cav gain +2S from GWs in 8th...
it is definitely correct for 7th ed... except of course that BCs cannot get spears...
but if they could they would be handled in this manner...

That's the trouble with a new edition.

The original stated 7th, 8th when it should have stated 6th, 7th.

Duh!

theorox
20-06-2010, 11:14
That ruling only applies to 6th edition.

In 7th, all models on a cavalry base are cavalry unless otherwise stated.

Thus Bull Cantaurs cannot benefit from fighting with a weapon in each hand, fight with +1S on the charge with spears, fight with +1S from great weapons ond don't get the additional +1 from hand weapon and shield.

Of freaking course you use the 6th edition ruling, there is no such thing as a bullcentaur in 7th editon! :D :D :D :D :D

Pretty clear to me.

Theo