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View Full Version : Sure hope the ring of Hotek get's FAQ'ed for 8th



Skyros
16-06-2010, 14:36
or else it's going to be pretty gamebreaking :D

It's already (like much of the rest of the DE codex) an undercosted (or overpowered, depending on how you look at it) item.

It get's much much stronger in 8th.

1) The miscast table is far nastier. One of the results we rolled placed a STR 10 large no partials pie plate on top of the caster - wiped out an entire regiment of his OWN soldiers.

2) Much higher casting values, more dice rolled per spell, means many more doubles rolled. Before, many spells could be cast on 2 dice. Many of the default spells could be cast on 1 dice often. The 'really hard' ones required 3.

In 8th, casting values have gone by quite a bit. Something that requires 'only' two dice to cast is one of the cheapest, with many default spells needing 3 and many spells requiring as many as 5 to have a good chance of casting. Your chances of getting a double are much higher with more dice.

3) This part is unclear to me, but it's possible the ring of hotek could work on bound spells now, since they use power dice, and force miscasts on them.

Lordmonkey
16-06-2010, 14:48
It's a very good point! Perhaps the ring will be adjusted in cost in the errata .pdf?

Ultimate Life Form
16-06-2010, 14:48
With the errata coming up this would finally the chance to fix some of the most unbalanced things, of which the ring is only one. However the main purpose of this thing is to clarify stuff so I'm not holding my breath.

willowdark
16-06-2010, 14:53
Why are casting values so hard to reach? Don't you add your caster level to it?

It's still only a 12" radius. Haven't you figured out yet that when you play DE you don't cast into that bubble? My opponents have figured it out, and the Ring hardly ever has a big effect on the game, except for limiting my casting ability as much as my opponent's.

Don Zeko
16-06-2010, 14:58
It's still only a 12" radius. Haven't you figured out yet that when you play DE you don't cast into that bubble? My opponents have figured it out, and the Ring hardly ever has a big effect on the game, except for limiting my casting ability as much as my opponent's.

Dude, preventing enemy mages from casting into the bubble is a huge effect on the game. You have to pay points for magic resistance even though your opponent can just cast spells on different units, right? I'm a DE player too, and I'll use the ring in tournament armies, but let's not kid ourselves. The 25-point cost is only reasonable if you've got a magic phase of your own. If you're running a caddy and the ring, it would still be worth it at 50 or 100 points. That doesn't mean that it's game-breaking every time, but it's absolutely not a balanced item, and it's bound to get worse in 8th.

willowdark
16-06-2010, 15:09
I agree that it's powerful, but you have to look at it in context. It's a Talisman, competing with the only Ward Save in the book. It's not an item that can really be put on a character. Raising the point cost so that a champ cant take it will make it a worthless item. That's why DE players object and non-DE players can't understand. It can't go on a Wizard and a Fighter sacrifices too much in defense to take it.

Pricing something "out of the market," so to speak, is just as bad in terms of game design as under-pricing something. Like the Black Amulet. There's a reason you don't see that in any army.

Since the item exists, by default it should be worth taking. This is balance by the detrimental effect it has on the controlling player's army. I'd rather see the area reduced to 6", or extended to 18" for the controlling player, then have its price increased beyond what a champ can take. There are better ways to fix it than raising the cost.

Alltaken
16-06-2010, 15:18
thinking evilish here, slann takes cupped hands. You target a mega spell against the weilder, If you don't cook the wielder of the ring you can cook a caster. Seems an effective use to counter use the ring

Leogun_91
16-06-2010, 15:23
The fact that miscasts aren't all bad now limits the bonus, I can just buy lv1 shamans, run them out of their units and sacrifice them on things you have no chance on dispelling since miscasts and irresistible force is the same thing. Yes the ring makes magic more dangerous but it makes it more dangerous for you as well.

a18no
16-06-2010, 16:42
thinking evilish here, slann takes cupped hands. You target a mega spell against the weilder, If you don't cook the wielder of the ring you can cook a caster. Seems an effective use to counter use the ring

He got the point:

Slann try to cast the biggest spells he got, with 6 dices. Chances to doubles 6 is very high.
He got irrestibles force, so no dispelling, then throw the miscast out to other mage.

The mage can be hit by: big S10 template, small S10 template, all fig in contact hit by S10, chance to blow are double than in 7th, S6 hit to all caster, wizard loose D3 lvl.... Combine that with the spell that just got through and you've got one of the biggest kill you can get.

Ring of hotek: the spell still goes through (in 7th it was dispelled, not in 8th), and after that make same as the cupped hand. BUT the item can kill dark elf mage too.

45pts (the wielder will not recevie the hit, OWN spells still goes, opponent take the hit, one time use but choose WHEN to use) against 25 pts (can hurt wielder army, OPPONENT spell goes through, opponent OR wielder army take the hit, always active, but don't choose when to use).. not bad

willowdark
16-06-2010, 16:49
That's a game of distances. Cupped hands, combined with becalming cogitation, is why I keep all my mages at least 24" from any Slann. The trick might work on some DE players, by I play with mobile casters and will spend the game nickle and diming your supports without getting close enough to be hexed by the Slann.

Skyros
16-06-2010, 17:03
Why are casting values so hard to reach?

I just told you: casting values increased dramatically. I saw half a dozen spells with casting values of 18+.


It's still only a 12" radius. Haven't you figured out yet that when you play DE you don't cast into that bubble?

Anyone defending the ring of hotek as not broken, or saying "Just don't cast into a 24" diameter bubble" is someone not worth listening to. And in reality, the area of effect is larger - you have to avoid every unit that even has part of itself inside that 24" diameter bubble. So the actual range of effect is something like 30". That is *enormous*. If the radius was only 6" then saying "Just don't cast into the bubble" might be a valid counter point.


It can't go on a Wizard and a Fighter sacrifices too much in defense to take it.

Utter nonsense. You act like every other magic item in the game comes with a built in wardsave. Everyone has to make choices like this. Everyone has to sacrifice personal physical defence on their characters for area of effect magical defense. It just shows how spoiled DE players are that you don't want to.

But fear not! In 8e, the ring gets dramatically more powerful, and you can have more characters, thanks to the removal of slot restrictions. You can have a dedicated ring character that hides out in the back, if you so desire.

Kalandros
16-06-2010, 17:06
Until the FAQ clearly states that miscast items cause a Loss of Control, they are useless.
Ring of hotek will do nothing, as will cupped hands. Errata must specify the change or the items will do nothing~~

Skyros
16-06-2010, 17:11
I think the 8e rules specifically address items like this: they say that if something causes a miscast, the spell goes off, it is not IF, but you then roll on the loss of control table afterwards.

At least, that's what I could make out by peering over 3 peoples shoulders, and how the staff told us to play it.

And the 8e miscast table is *horrific*. Slanns with cupped hands are going to butcher everyone :p S10 large pie plates? All your wizards take wounds? Etc.

grumbaki
16-06-2010, 17:14
I agree that it's powerful, but you have to look at it in context. It's a Talisman, competing with the only Ward Save in the book. It's not an item that can really be put on a character. Raising the point cost so that a champ cant take it will make it a worthless item. That's why DE players object and non-DE players can't understand. It can't go on a Wizard and a Fighter sacrifices too much in defense to take it.

No defense?

* Armor of Eternal Servitude: Heavy Armor, Regeneration (Armor)
* Ring of Hotek: Great magic protection, makes everying in 12'' immune to big nasty spells (talisman)
* Cold One, Shield, Sea Dragon Cloak, Lance (mundane armor)

So, you get a hero who has a 1+ Armor Save, 4+ Regeneration and great magic defense for everything important in your army. What is there to complain about? And you still get on top of this your talisman spots freed up, so you can make your lvl 4 mage pretty much impossible to kill (pendant of khaleth).

willowdark
16-06-2010, 17:19
I just told you: casting values increased dramatically. I saw half a dozen spells with casting values of 18+.



Anyone defending the ring of hotek as not broken, or saying "Just don't cast into a 24" diameter bubble" is someone not worth listening to. And in reality, the area of effect is larger - you have to avoid every unit that even has part of itself inside that 24" diameter bubble. So the actual range of effect is something like 30". That is *enormous*. If the radius was only 6" then saying "Just don't cast into the bubble" might be a valid counter point.



Utter nonsense. You act like every other magic item in the game comes with a built in wardsave. Everyone has to make choices like this. Everyone has to sacrifice personal physical defence on their characters for area of effect magical defense. It just shows how spoiled DE players are that you don't want to.

But fear not! In 8e, the ring gets dramatically more powerful, and you can have more characters, thanks to the removal of slot restrictions. You can have a dedicated ring character that hides out in the back, if you so desire.

Poisoning the well is not an acceptible way to refute someones point. You can't make glaring assumptions about my character like "Anyone saying... is not worth listening to" and maintain credibility. I'm not spoilt. I get beaten by heavy magic armies all the time. Or at least regularly enough to know the limits of the ring.

Compared to Deamons, VC, Lizards and WoC, DE heroes have the lowest toughness, the least available armour save and the least inherent bonuses, like Cold Blooded, Deamonic, Vampire powers and Gifts and Marks.

If I want a 1+ AS, I have to be Stupid. A T3 model with 2W and poor AS needs a ward, especially if I'm a BSB, and can't get it if I take the Ring. That's game design. I get access to Wards, or should, more readily than the others because they have inherently better defenses.

People wax indignation about DE because we have a good magic item list and completely ignore the fact that our characters are significantly weaker than their 7th ed peers.

Atrahasis
16-06-2010, 17:49
I think the 8e rules specifically address items like this: they say that if something causes a miscast, the spell goes off, it is not IF, but you then roll on the loss of control table afterwards. I'd like to shoot whoever first used the phrase "Loss of Control" in the face. With a water pistol, of course.


The rulebook talks exclusively about irresistible force and miscasts. "Loss of Control" isn't even a rule. Double 6 means you cast irresistibly and you also miscast, and those are the terms used.

Jind_Singh
16-06-2010, 17:56
I just hope they also look at some of the WoC items - otherwise it will be a scary time rolling for magic with their black tongue!

Pskyrunner
16-06-2010, 17:58
sounds like DE would be weak and low tier.. honestly everyone knows that RoH is overpowered and will be even more in 8th (not speaking of PoK)

higher cost/shorter range especially RoH would be fair i guess

grumbaki
16-06-2010, 18:07
Poisoning the well is not an acceptible way to refute someones point. You can't make glaring assumptions about my character like "Anyone saying... is not worth listening to" and maintain credibility. I'm not spoilt. I get beaten by heavy magic armies all the time. Or at least regularly enough to know the limits of the ring.

Compared to Deamons, VC, Lizards and WoC, DE heroes have the lowest toughness, the least available armour save and the least inherent bonuses, like Cold Blooded, Deamonic, Vampire powers and Gifts and Marks.

If I want a 1+ AS, I have to be Stupid. A T3 model with 2W and poor AS needs a ward, especially if I'm a BSB, and can't get it if I take the Ring. That's game design. I get access to Wards, or should, more readily than the others because they have inherently better defenses.

People wax indignation about DE because we have a good magic item list and completely ignore the fact that our characters are significantly weaker than their 7th ed peers.

Once again you have missed that you can take both the Armor of Servitude (4+ regeneration), mundane armor (1+ AS, stupid with Ld 9-10) and the ring. Not much to complain about.

And then you compare your elves to (a) saurus, (b) vampires and (c) chaos warriors.

Sure, some of them are better than elven characters in straight up fight, but so what? A saurus has str 5 t5, but you have higher movement, weaponskill and initiative. You don't need the pendant to take on one of them. And vampires...they have str 5 t4 and except for one expensive magic item or the use of an enchanted shield, the best AS they can get is 1+. So usually you'll face a T4 2W character with a 2+ AS and rarely a ward (the best ward they can get is 4+ and it makes them stupid). So what if they have bloodline powers with such horrible defense? And finally, chaos warriors can only fight in close combat. It is all their army can do! I see no reason why you should compare a hero from an all-around army like dark elves to a 1 dimensional one like WoC. Anyways, just give 1 hero the pendant of khaleth, pick out the biggest chaos hero around and tie him up for the whole game.

And what about dark elf characters vs other armies? They are on par with High Elves and Wood Elves (probably better than WE who get almost no saves at all!). They are also on par with Bretonnian and Empire characters (higher WS, M, I and Ld, lower T). Dwarf and greenskin characters can prove tough to them, ogres can smush most (as they should) and they outclass skaven. I really don't see how 7th ed characters outclass them so bad.

DE have it all. Undercosted units, cheap magic items (the best defensive item in the game) and assassins. If all else fails, just use one of them if you are afraid of an enemy hero. 4+d3 WS 10 hatred attacks with killing blow or 1 str above the enemy's toughness will kill almost anything. Then plop your ring of hotek onto a hero or unit champion and smile at the results. :)

willowdark
16-06-2010, 18:12
Except that if you raise the cost of the Ring those combos become impossible, which is my point.

Sure the Ring is powerful, but adjust it's effects rather than raise the cost. At 35 points there wouldn't be a single synergy you could build to make a hero worth taking.

Oh! and you can't take AoES and the Ring on a hero. The armour is 35 points.

Skyros
16-06-2010, 18:13
Poisoning the well is not an acceptible way to refute someones point. You can't make glaring assumptions about my character

Spare me your injured tone. You started it, saying that the ring was fine and anyone who thought otherwise was just too dumb to have 'figured it out'.

With that kind of nonresponse, what exactly were you expecting?

When you say something hilariously terrible like "Just don't cast anywhere in this 30" bubble" how do you expect people to respond? Do we *really* need to spell out how absurd that is? Some responses just don't dignify a response. I happen to think this is one of them. If you disagree, I suppose I could draw you a paint diagram showing you how basically all the area that matters can be covered by the ring of hotek, but that shouldn't be necessary, it's just geometry.


A T3 model with 2W and poor AS needs a ward, especially if I'm a BSB, and can't get it if I take the Ring. That's game design.

Hint: don't give the ring to your BSB. In 8e, there's no reason to do so.


I get access to Wards, or should, more readily than the others because they have inherently better defenses.

People wax indignation about DE because we have a good magic item list and completely ignore the fact that our characters are significantly weaker than their 7th ed peers.

This is absolutely false. So your guys are T3. Welcome to HE, WE, Empire, Skaven, and goblins. Oh and skinks too I guess. And your guys have a higher I and WS than the skaven, goblin, skink and empire heroes too. And with your unkillable dreadlord I think it's a bit of a stretch to say your character are weaker.

Anyway, give the ring to a champion and then it doesn't matter what his defence is as he can't be picked out of the unit.

Your characters are not significantly weaker than all other characters in 7e.

Skyros
16-06-2010, 18:17
Except that if you raise the cost of the Ring those combos become impossible, which is my point.

I think that would be good. You *should* be forced to choose between such powerful magic defence and good personal physical defence. why do DE players think they should get it all?

In 8e, you can have more heroes, so just make one guy (not the BSB) have the pendant if it's too expensive to give to a champion.

Frankly though, I'd rather see the range reduced to 6". Even at 50 points and 12" range, it's strong enough in 8e that it would be an auto include in any army I play. I'd take a special hero level character just to carry it.

willowdark
16-06-2010, 18:17
Skyros, your need to make this personal is drowning your perception of my argument. I've said from the start that the better way to fix the ring is in its effects, not its cost, since raising the cost will make it effectively worthless.

People say that even if it's 100 pts people will still take it. But that's just not true. As I've said, even at 35 pts the Ring takes up too much of a resource, considering the fact that it's a Talisman, to offer an effective synergy with the other magic items in the book.

And a character that's easy to kill is not a good character to take. That's why you rarely see Death Hags, in spite of they're significant offensive ability.

Skyros
16-06-2010, 18:24
...

The ring doesn't need any synergy to be worth taking. Have you even seen the 8e miscast table?

A single miscast is likely to pay out quadruple the rings cost. People are rolling more dice per spell now (or they can't cast the spells). Getting doubles is trivially easy.

The current ring is still a steal at 35 points. It would be a steal at 50 points. At 100 points, it becomes something that creates significant difficulties and choices, because you'd have to assign it to a lord, and it's harder to make utility lords than utility heroes.

I agree with you that it's better to reduce the effect of the ring, rather than increase it's cost - but I disagree entirely that it's fine as is and people just need to 'figure out how to deal with it'.

I think the ring at 25 points and 6" radius would be a steal and auto include as well, but at least it would only protect you in a small bubble instead of the entire middle half of the battlefield. It might be worth taking even if it only worked on the unit joined by the carrier - the 8e miscast table is that brutal. MR2 wouldn't dissuade me from casting on a unit of cold one knights, but if they've got the ring of hotek in there I am absolutely not going to be casting spells at it in 8e.

Daedalus81
16-06-2010, 18:27
Here's my thoughts on how it should work.

As of now 1 or a 2 is a miscast, which ends casting for that sorcerer. Rolling doubles near hotek will create that effect and not a loss of control.

willowdark
16-06-2010, 18:30
There is also the fact that when the Ring was designed it was a game of nearly of huge PD totals and much more powerful casters. With the Magic phase changing so much, I could definitely see the ring being close to unacceptible.

I wonder how it will play out. For my part, I like the ring because it added a dimension to my game where I could impose it on magic heavy armies while trying to mitigate its effects on my magic heavy army. Now that "magic heavy" has been effectively redefined, I might not take the ring at all.

Alltaken
16-06-2010, 19:02
That's a game of distances. Cupped hands, combined with becalming cogitation, is why I keep all my mages at least 24" from any Slann. The trick might work on some DE players, by I play with mobile casters and will spend the game nickle and diming your supports without getting close enough to be hexed by the Slann.

Hmm dude, our cupped hands work on LOS, not on range. IF you have your ring, and not on range to make it effective I need an explanation as to why did you ever pick it. Slanns have distance advantage on the Hotek Combo, you target the wielder (heroes cand wield it) and pass the miscast onto a wizard of the enemy. Effectively you gani more by the item than you do with the miscast.
;) You might be better tactitian, but you got movement and distance against you. If the guy doesn't know of this trick he's on though break, in contrary you're on the bad side

Rochr
16-06-2010, 19:05
Infernal Puppet... now we talkin!

a18no
16-06-2010, 19:19
That's a game of distances. Cupped hands, combined with becalming cogitation, is why I keep all my mages at least 24" from any Slann. The trick might work on some DE players, by I play with mobile casters and will spend the game nickle and diming your supports without getting close enough to be hexed by the Slann.


Anyone defending the ring of hotek as not broken, or saying "Just don't cast into a 24" diameter bubble" is someone not worth listening to.

An argument against Dark elf that can be used against an other arguments against dark elf!! Funny guys :D


Until the FAQ clearly states that miscast items cause a Loss of Control, they are useless.
Ring of hotek will do nothing, as will cupped hands. Errata must specify the change or the items will do nothing~~

Go look at the book: no lost of the control table, but a beautyfull "miscast table"!!


Once again you have missed that you can take both the Armor of Servitude (4+ regeneration), mundane armor (1+ AS, stupid with Ld 9-10) and the ring. Not much to complain about.

all of that on a Lord only... wow, Dark elf are so strong...:shifty::shifty::shifty:



This is absolutely false. So your guys are T3. Welcome to HE, WE, Empire, Skaven, and goblins. Oh and skinks too I guess. And your guys have a higher I and WS than the skaven, goblin, skink and empire heroes too. And with your unkillable dreadlord I think it's a bit of a stretch to say your character are weaker.


They all got T4 heros.. no??

willowdark
16-06-2010, 19:22
Hmm dude, our cupped hands work on LOS, not on range. IF you have your ring, and not on range to make it effective I need an explanation as to why did you ever pick it. Slanns have distance advantage on the Hotek Combo, you target the wielder (heroes cand wield it) and pass the miscast onto a wizard of the enemy. Effectively you gani more by the item than you do with the miscast.
;) You might be better tactitian, but you got movement and distance against you. If the guy doesn't know of this trick he's on though break, in contrary you're on the bad side

Are you sure it works on LoS, and not LoS within 24". I'm pretty sure you need both range and LoS.

It's not the ring itself that needs to be kept away, but a Wizard to bounce the miscast to. So I impose the Ring on the Frog and keep my casters at a safe distance.

grumbaki
16-06-2010, 19:35
all of that on a Lord only... wow, Dark elf are so strong...:shifty::shifty::shifty:

They all got T4 heros.. no??

Well let's look at an Empire Lord. A grand master vs a Dreadlord (-1 WS, +1 T, -3 I, -1 Ld). So stat wise, they are pretty equal. The human might not be wounded as much, but is slower, less skill and a poorer commander. For 45 points the human can get the best ward save possible, a 4+. That makes him 190 points, with a lance, a 1+ AS 4+ WS.

Now the dreadlord spends 35 points for regeneration. A bit cheaper as fire can get through it, but still a good save. And then the dark elf can get himself a 1+ AS as well. The two have pretty much the exact same protection. Only now the lord can take the ring of hotek too, which makes him pretty much immune to magic, as well as everything around him too. This alone makes him much, much more survivable.

----

Complaining that for a mere 60 points of magic items (I'm not sure how much in mundane, but 40 about in mundane armor?), your lord gets a 1+/4+. As you can see above, that is the best that most other armies can get. And for you, that is scraping the bottom because you also get the ring of hotek!

What I hear is :cries:, but what I see is the average on lord protection. And to make it all better, you free up your pendant for another hero. To use the Empire example, once I use up the Holy Relic, the best save that I can get for another hero is a 5+ WS! I'm sorry, but I just can't feel bad for you when you get good protection with no loss.

Heimagoblin
16-06-2010, 19:36
Compared to Deamons, VC, Lizards and WoC, DE heroes have the lowest toughness, the least available armour save and the least inherent bonuses, like Cold Blooded, Deamonic, Vampire powers and Gifts and Marks.

If I want a 1+ AS, I have to be Stupid. A T3 model with 2W and poor AS needs a ward, especially if I'm a BSB, and can't get it if I take the Ring. That's game design. I get access to Wards, or should, more readily than the others because they have inherently better defenses.

People wax indignation about DE because we have a good magic item list and completely ignore the fact that our characters are significantly weaker than their 7th ed peers.

Master, pendant of khaleth, soul render, heavy armour, sea dragon cloak(in asf unit)
Master, bsb, armour of darkness, ring of hotek great weapon( in asf unit).

For 300 points you can buff a deathstar, have very good magic defence and a very hard to kill hero to protect your bsb and ld9 radies with rerolls and 6 str 6 re rolling to hit attacks. Dark elf characters are some of the nastiest characters out there. Show me any other army (excluding deamons) that can do so much with 300 points of hero.

Now I will spell this out for you. DARK ELVES ARE TOP TIER FOR A REASON.

willowdark
16-06-2010, 19:43
All of that is predicated on having them in a M5 unit. Please... Please! ...run that list against me.

For 300 points you can saddle your best fighters in an infantry unit just like O&G and Dwarfs. What does that spell. DWARFS AND O&G ARE BOTTOM TIER FOR THAT REASON.

See what I've been reduced to. I feel dirty.

a18no
16-06-2010, 19:45
Well let's look at an Empire Lord. A grand master vs a Dreadlord (-1 WS, +1 T, -3 I, -1 Ld). So stat wise, they are pretty equal. The human might not be wounded as much, but is slower, less skill and a poorer commander. For 45 points the human can get the best ward save possible, a 4+. That makes him 190 points, with a lance, a 1+ AS 4+ WS.

Now the dreadlord spends 35 points for regeneration. A bit cheaper as fire can get through it, but still a good save. And then the dark elf can get himself a 1+ AS as well. The two have pretty much the exact same protection. Only now the lord can take the ring of hotek too, which makes him pretty much immune to magic, as well as everything around him too. This alone makes him much, much more survivable.


How much does they cost???

What i see is a Lord Dark elf at 250pts, 1+ AS, stupid (too be 1+ he NEED the cold one), regen 4+
Against a Grand master, 190pts, 1+ AS, ward 4+. I though he was the worst of your lord???? So why comparing him.. we ALL know that empire need a new book... what's the point?



What I hear is :cries:, but what I see is the average on lord protection. And to make it all better, you free up your pendant for another hero. To use the Empire example, once I use up the Holy Relic, the best save that I can get for another hero is a 5+ WS! I'm sorry, but I just can't feel bad for you when you get good protection with no loss.

If i use the pendant.. the best save i can get is.. 4+ for 70pts..

So i repeat: what's the point???



Master, pendant of khaleth, soul render, heavy armour, sea dragon cloak(in asf unit)
Master, bsb, armour of darkness, ring of hotek great weapon( in asf unit).

For 300 points you can buff a deathstar, have very good magic defence and a very hard to kill hero to protect your bsb and ld9 radies with rerolls and 6 str 6 re rolling to hit attacks. Dark elf characters are some of the nastiest characters out there. Show me any other army (excluding deamons) that can do so much with 300 points of hero.

Now I will spell this out for you. DARK ELVES ARE TOP TIER FOR A REASON.

You forget the principal point in 8th: stepping up. Masters will die so fast against so much attack. Pendant?? Against a horde of night goblin, he can receive not less than 12 to 13 S3 attacks... don't forget night gob boss too.. he can be dead in 2 turns...


Don't get me wrong: dark elf will still be a tough army, with some trick to harass opponent. But they will lose some power, or simply not gain as much as some other army.

Agnar the Howler
16-06-2010, 19:49
Are you sure it works on LoS, and not LoS within 24". I'm pretty sure you need both range and LoS.

Cupped Hands requires only LoS, there is no range limit.

Skyros
16-06-2010, 19:53
All of that is predicated on having them in a M5 unit. Please... Please! ...run that list against me.

An M5 unit can charge up to 17" in 8e. They can also (thanks to their high leadership) move 10" while marchblocked.

(Empire cavalry can charge up to 19", for comparison. )

They are much, much faster than before. It is much, much harder to keep infantry out of combat than it was in 7e.

DE infantry are capable of turn 2 charges even if your opponent hasn't moved.

willowdark
16-06-2010, 19:53
Angar, fair enough. It's still a dancing contest since I use the FF and cast behind cover.

Skyros, good points, but I think it will still come down to practice. I think the good players in 8th will still be the ones who can redirect and fight on their own terms. If fighting on my terms means delaying combat so I can shoot you to death or focus on your supports than I win because I played better.

theunwantedbeing
16-06-2010, 19:55
8th ed is taking a helluva step towards 5th ed Herohammer and power combo's.
The Ring of Hotek will not be getting nerfed in the slightest :)

Just notch this up to Dark Elf Whingers more than anything.
We'll see when the 8th ed Errata turns up anyway, so its all premature complaining as usual.

StarFyre
16-06-2010, 19:58
The items aren't useless. I saw the rulebook last night and it still says MISCAST if i remember correctly in places. But it makes references to that new table...so miscast/loss of control =same thing

Sanjay

grumbaki
16-06-2010, 20:04
How much does they cost???

What i see is a Lord Dark elf at 250pts, 1+ AS, stupid (too be 1+ he NEED the cold one), regen 4+
Against a Grand master, 190pts, 1+ AS, ward 4+. I though he was the worst of your lord???? So why comparing him.. we ALL know that empire need a new book... what's the point?

The worst of our lords? He is great! Best WS, highest attacks, makes his unit immune to pyschology. And for that 250 points you get much better stats, insane magic protection, and equal to the best protection that other books can get. That is the point!



If i use the pendant.. the best save i can get is.. 4+ for 70pts..

So i repeat: what's the point???

Inverse ward save. If you are wounded by anything str 5 or higher then you get a 2+ ward save! Not 4+, but 2+. That is unless you are in the arena of death. :rolleyes:

And really, 12 WS 2 str 3 goblin attacks coming at him? So they hit on 5's, 4 hits. Wound on 4's. 2 wounds. 1+ AS and 4+ WS. My god, he is dooooomed! But wait, what if he is attacked by black orcs with great weapons? He could be hit by up to 10 WS 4 str 6 attacks! So 5 hits, and perhaps 5 wounds. But then he gets 4+ AS and a 2+ WS! 2 turns? He'd be dead before combat even started!

Poor dark elves...

a18no
16-06-2010, 20:14
Inverse ward save. If you are wounded by anything str 5 or higher then you get a 2+ ward save! Not 4+, but 2+. That is unless you are in the arena of death. :rolleyes:

And really, 12 WS 2 str 3 goblin attacks coming at him? So they hit on 5's, 4 hits. Wound on 4's. 2 wounds. 1+ AS and 4+ WS. My god, he is dooooomed! But wait, what if he is attacked by black orcs with great weapons? He could be hit by up to 10 WS 4 str 6 attacks! So 5 hits, and perhaps 5 wounds. But then he gets 4+ AS and a 2+ WS! 2 turns? He'd be dead before combat even started!

Poor dark elves...

I know my item.. i said when he is used, the only left is a 4+ à 70 pts...

GOBLIN CHARACTER... had you really read what i said or doing it to flam me????
We all know that the goblin is better against the pendant than a black orcs.. what's the point??

willowdark
16-06-2010, 20:14
Grumbaki, Empire and DE are on two different sides of a major paradigm shift in game design. Comparing them is as misguided as comparing armies from different editions. In all likelyhood, DE are designed the way they are because GW viewed the empire book as a being full of mistakes.

That's not a popular point of view, but it's a realistic one.

grumbaki
16-06-2010, 20:26
a18no:

Ok...well, the pendant is an inverse ward save for 35 points. The 70 point item is a rebounding 4+ ward save. And my point for the gobbos v black orcs is this. With the goblins you get a 2+ and a 4+ save. With the black orcs you get a 4+ and a 2+ save. So against weak models and against strong models, you get the exact same saves, and the saves are great ones.

And against a goblin character...ok, so what? 3 ws 5 str 6 attacks. 1.5 hits, 1.5 wounds (let's say 2). And that means that the elf has to take a 4+ AS and a 2+ WS. And if all of those attacks go against your hero (who will probably live through it), nothing went to his unit! Now the dark elf spearmen, blackguard, or whatever, get to beat up those gobbos without taking a scratch. 35 points well spent indeed! The entire point of the Pendant is that anything weak enough to get through the ward save (like those gobbo attacks) won't get through the armor save, and anything strong enough to get through the armor save can't get through the ward save (like those black orcs).

----------

Willowdark:

The Empire rulebook is the most balance one out there, and I've used it to great effect. I compare them because the Empire rulebook gets what is 'average'. Just look at the rumors for the magic items list. Most of them correspond to the Empire's prices and effects (as opposed to inverse ward saves and forced miscasts). If anything, the new edition seems to be an improvement for armies like the Empire, while trying to bring the top tiers down. This is why 8th Edition is great for massed infantry, not death stars.

I compare them to show that even without the 'unkillable dreadlord' build, with a 4+ regeneration save your lord has well enough defended.

Tarliyn
16-06-2010, 20:34
I agree that it's powerful, but you have to look at it in context. It's a Talisman, competing with the only Ward Save in the book. It's not an item that can really be put on a character. Raising the point cost so that a champ cant take it will make it a worthless item. That's why DE players object and non-DE players can't understand. It can't go on a Wizard and a Fighter sacrifices too much in defense to take it.


Ut oh my magic item of death is too expensive, I think it should be cost less so i don't have to give up and defensive skills to take it


picking and choosing magic items is a trade and the fact that dark elfs don't have to pick and choose anything is everything but balanced

MalusCalibur
16-06-2010, 20:41
Regardless of whether you think the Ring is overpowered or not, the erratas that are supposedly due will only be to make the books conform to 8th's rules, in the places they do not. It is highly unlikely that there will be rebalancing or re-pointing of anything, so don't get your hopes up.

Tarliyn
16-06-2010, 20:45
Regardless of whether you think the Ring is overpowered or not, the erratas that are supposedly due will only be to make the books conform to 8th's rules, in the places they do not. It is highly unlikely that there will be rebalancing or re-pointing of anything, so don't get your hopes up.

sadly this is most likely true

Adjustquantity
16-06-2010, 21:14
I can't believe I just wasted the last few minutes reading this thread. It sounds like a bunch of whinning since the Errata/FAQ's haven't been published/leaked yet.

grumbaki
16-06-2010, 21:24
Well in the old Dwarf army book, the Khazlid section had the word Grumbaki: Literally a dwarf who complains or whines. I figured that it would be an honest forum name to have. :)

a18no
16-06-2010, 21:27
Regardless of whether you think the Ring is overpowered or not, the erratas that are supposedly due will only be to make the books conform to 8th's rules, in the places they do not. It is highly unlikely that there will be rebalancing or re-pointing of anything, so don't get your hopes up.

Worst than that, the discussion was about the Ring and items that affect miscast, and they don't NEED a faq, cause the new book use MISCAST table and not like the rumor said a "lost of contral table".

Skyros
16-06-2010, 21:28
I can't believe I just wasted the last few minutes reading this thread. It sounds like a bunch of whinning since the Errata/FAQ's haven't been published/leaked yet.

Could have read the title and spared yourself the trouble :) I think the title makes it quite clear it's related to the as yet unreleased FAQ, no?

Agnar the Howler
16-06-2010, 21:30
I can't believe I just wasted the last few minutes reading this thread. It sounds like a bunch of whinning since the Errata/FAQ's haven't been published/leaked yet.

You have noted the hypocrisy that goes with whining about there being too much whining, right? :rolleyes:

Skyros
16-06-2010, 21:38
This is from the list of common magic items


58. Energy Spell - [35 pts] Only one use, every doubles will cause total energy and loss of control

Very interesting, IMO. Basically a one use ring of hotek for everyone. More expensive than the real ring of hotek, and it does cause the IF that normal ring of hotek doesn't...but still...interesting.

Flash Felix
16-06-2010, 21:57
I've always thought that, for 25 points, the Ring of Hotek should cause the spell to fail, not miscast. So it offers pretty good magic protection without the nasty effects.

And as it's only 25 points, maybe reduce that radius to 6". Would anyone still want that for the price? My Dwarves would.

Skyros
16-06-2010, 22:13
I'd definitely buy it at 25 even if it was only 6" and just made the spells fail. That's still a bargain. It's a free unlimited use dispell scroll for all the nastiest spells for any unit within a 12" diameter. That's awesome. You can either protect most of your front line, or at least protect your heavy hitter death star unit that is going to be a magic magnet.

Flash Felix
16-06-2010, 23:02
And make it 30 points, so at the least, you can't put it on a champion.

30 points, 6" radius, causes spells to fail (not miscast) on a double. That's a hell of a lot closer to balanced than the original.

Maybe then, that High Elf Archmage with the 100 point Book of Hoeth might not break down in tears every time he faces a Dark Elf army, and finds himself utterly neutered by a mere unit champion.

Alltaken
16-06-2010, 23:39
So quick question, besides Slanns how do we take care of the pendant now?

theunwantedbeing
16-06-2010, 23:44
So quick question, besides Slanns how do we take care of the pendant now?

Ignore the guy with it because he's actually nothing special now all units fight with the front 3 ranks and dark elf armies are packed full of squishy t3 stuff?

Or we can just complain some more and petition GW to change it.
Seeing a that worked so fantastically well last time.

The_Bureaucrat
17-06-2010, 01:51
So quick question, besides Slanns how do we take care of the pendant now?

I'm guessing that miscast no longer causes the spell to fail (since it seems irresitable and miscast were combined to some degree). So sacrificial wizard nuking seems pretty good.

Wiseman
17-06-2010, 02:21
The thing with Ring of Hotek, you can't cast Buffs onto your unit, So while it will defend you, you can't boost your ability

a18no
17-06-2010, 02:25
Actually.. you CAN, but at your own risk!

Dungeon_Lawyer
17-06-2010, 02:30
I agree that it's powerful, but you have to look at it in context.

Im sorry but I just had to stop reading your post right there---That ring is broken--Its the single most broken thing in almost all of fantasy and it needs to be addressed for 8th--nuff said.:p

Maoriboy007
17-06-2010, 02:43
Im sorry but I just had to stop reading your post right there---That ring is broken--Its the single most broken thing in almost all of fantasy and it needs to be addressed for 8th--nuff said.:p

Followed closley by its younger brother the pendant of Khaleth :)

TonyFlow
17-06-2010, 03:30
Grumbaki, Empire and DE are on two different sides of a major paradigm shift in game design. Comparing them is as misguided as comparing armies from different editions. In all likelyhood, DE are designed the way they are because GW viewed the empire book as a being full of mistakes.

That's not a popular point of view, but it's a realistic one.

Of course you can compare these two books! These are the versions playing against eachother. What the designers had in mind really is quite irrelevant.

Take a look at the magic items in the empire book. There are MANY items that cost 30-35pts only to keep hero level characters from combining them. Fx you cannot have a wizard with rod of power and a dispel scroll. If you want both, you have to take two wizards. Magic items in many books are designed in this way.

Except Dark elves (and maybe deamons, i have only skimmed the book). You get to combine all the cool underpriced items.

Until now, the only answer i have read from DE players on this topic is: "But the Pendant does not shut down the magic phase COMPLETELY, so it should be dirt cheap... And if it is more expensive, it will restrict my other choices".

Seems like everything in the DE book should be non-choises.

Don Zeko
17-06-2010, 04:14
The thing with Ring of Hotek, you can't cast Buffs onto your unit, So while it will defend you, you can't boost your ability

Who cares? In a tournament-maximized army, you either take magic or you take a caddy, the ring of hotek, and save points for dudes that can fight. In a mid-magic to heavy-magic list, the ring is actually balanced.

Don Zeko
17-06-2010, 04:15
Until now, the only answer i have read from the two DE players posting here that I disagree with on this topic is: "But the Pendant does not shut down the magic phase COMPLETELY, so it should be dirt cheap... And if it is more expensive, it will restrict my other choices".

Fixed that for you.

southpaw
17-06-2010, 05:21
I doubt the ring will be changed by the PDF, but thankfully there are a whole bunch of REALLY good augmentation (buff) spells that can still be useful in 8th. When I played against DE I have to play a completely different style then when I play against the Skaven (damn storm banner) or WoC. Is it the most powerful item in the game, probably. Does it take away the fun of playing against DE, not for me.

You want a real F-up situation, play Daemons against an Imperial Guard player in WH40K when they start screwing with your reserve rolls :rolleyes:

Pskyrunner
17-06-2010, 07:54
I've always thought that, for 25 points, the Ring of Hotek should cause the spell to fail, not miscast. So it offers pretty good magic protection without the nasty effects.

And as it's only 25 points, maybe reduce that radius to 6". Would anyone still want that for the price? My Dwarves would.

well might be even more powerfull.. so u cant cast into the bubble anymore at all!

i would like the idea that the ring raises the casted spells complexity by a certain amount like 8...

so big spells need even more PD and will higher the Miscast risk but still not miscast everytime

Flash Felix
17-06-2010, 08:07
well might be even more powerfull.. so u cant cast into the bubble anymore at all!


Sorry, I had meant that spells would fail on a double. I amended that in a later post to;

30 points, 6" radius, causes spells to fail (not miscast) on a double.

Raising the casting value of a spell by 3 or more, similar to the High Magic spell Drain Magic, would be good as well.

minionboy
17-06-2010, 08:27
As much as I agree that the item is over powered, I doubt that it will be changed with any FAQ.

Miscasts and Irresistible Force are separate entries in the new BRB. Double 6's cause Irresistible Force, and the entry for IF also states that after working out the effects of the spell, then the caster suffers a Miscast.

However, there is also a specific paragraph that states magic items and abilities which cause a Miscast will do so without also causing Irresistible Force and vice versa. Bound spells can suffer miscasts as well, except all that happens is that it destroys the item that contained the bound spell.

There isn't anything left to be FAQ'd really. The ring causes a Miscast on any double, which is pretty clear.

ChaosVC
17-06-2010, 08:41
The ring is so weak and expensive that almost every darkelf players takes it just for those reasons alone. There I said it.

Lordmonkey
17-06-2010, 13:54
Of course you can compare these two books! These are the versions playing against eachother. What the designers had in mind really is quite irrelevant.

...What? :eyebrows:

The development of the Empire book was completed and written by Alessio Cavetore before Warhammer 7th was even released. Gav Thorpe finished development of the Dark Elf book, what, at least 2 years later? Are you saying the designers disregard 2 years of player feedback (which they get, in person, on a regular basis) for 7th edition and deliberately made the DE items overpowered/undercosted?

Every single Empire player I know feels that the Empire book is under par, especially the magic item section, and for the reasons you have stated. That doesn't make the Empire book correct and a good basis for comparison, it just makes it a underpowered book in need of a boost so that it can be on the same level as everything else.


Grumbaki, Empire and DE are on two different sides of a major paradigm shift in game design. Comparing them is as misguided as comparing armies from different editions. In all likelyhood, DE are designed the way they are because GW viewed the empire book as a being full of mistakes.

That's not a popular point of view, but it's a realistic one.

I agree. I think the same can be said about the Orcs & Goblins book, at least with respect to 7th edition. It would be better to look at a more current book such as Skaven and see if these items really are "overpowered" by comparison. In all likelihood the items are on a similar level of 'power'.

As previously stated, increasing their pts cost would be fair with respect to 7th edition at least. It is hard to say if their functionality needs to change to be more approriate for 8th edition without actually playing it though.

The SkaerKrow
17-06-2010, 15:31
Considering that causing a Miscast also causes Irresistible Force this time around (or so they say), I think the Ring is perfect in 8e. Too perfect, perhaps.

Havock
17-06-2010, 15:48
I agree that it's powerful, but you have to look at it in context. It's a Talisman, competing with the only Ward Save in the book. It's not an item that can really be put on a character. Raising the point cost so that a champ cant take it will make it a worthless item. That's why DE players object and non-DE players can't understand. It can't go on a Wizard and a Fighter sacrifices too much in defense to take it.

Pricing something "out of the market," so to speak, is just as bad in terms of game design as under-pricing something. Like the Black Amulet. There's a reason you don't see that in any army.

Since the item exists, by default it should be worth taking. This is balance by the detrimental effect it has on the controlling player's army. I'd rather see the area reduced to 6", or extended to 18" for the controlling player, then have its price increased beyond what a champ can take. There are better ways to fix it than raising the cost.

6" would be best, as in, it would require skill and planning as to what you want under that 'umbrella' and how you are going to get that.

a18no
17-06-2010, 17:14
When you guys will had tested the rules, and find that you can close the champ with the ring in the second turn, you'll find that the ring is better on a black guard champ than on a lord with regen..

sulla
17-06-2010, 19:15
6" would be best, as in, it would require skill and planning as to what you want under that 'umbrella' and how you are going to get that.A 6" bubble requires less skill if you include magic in your DE list (which most DE players will want to in 8th to whittle down enemy units).

minionboy
17-06-2010, 19:58
Considering that causing a Miscast also causes Irresistible Force this time around (or so they say), I think the Ring is perfect in 8e. Too perfect, perhaps.

You have it backwards. I read the IF/Miscast section yesterday. It is very clear that Double 6's causes IF. IF goes on to state that after the IF spell is resolved, the caster suffers a Miscast. It is also very clear that items which force a Miscast do not force IF and effects that force IF do not Miscast.

The ring works completely fine in the new rules exactly as it did in 7th, except with a meaner miscast table.

Maoriboy007
17-06-2010, 20:58
... Are you saying the designers disregard 2 years of player feedback (which they get, in person, on a regular basis) for 7th edition and deliberately made the DE items overpowered/undercosted?

Uh, you are talking about games workshop right?

etancross
17-06-2010, 21:40
I can't belive this much rage and anger over the ROH, i have been able to take it 3 times because most of the time i give my hero's the PoK and the times ive taken the RoH it didnt do anything so i said o well and hve never taken it since.... I swear i think it sounds better on paper than it actually is

Im sure someone will just say something about "cheesy darkelf player defending the Ring" but honestly it wasn't impressive and i just stopped taking it.... that SINGLE magic Item isn't going to win you the game im sorrry...

Im shocked people complain about this and not the Item that WoC ahve that can alter miscasts, or about half the things in the skaven book....I would rather make a survivable character because there are SOOO many ways to target a single character and take him out (in 8th).

People are complaning about the ring now but after seeing the new book have you guys even thought about or realized the major boost that High Elves got? You think the ring is bad, JUST WAIT till HE players start to realize what they got handed to them on a sliver platter in 8th ed.

maaksel
17-06-2010, 21:43
2 ways to beat the ring... generally its the black guard champ that carries it (at least from my experience).

Measure 12" around him (since you can pre-measure everything now) and dont' cast in there. Or cast at the unit his casters are in.

Skyros
17-06-2010, 22:32
Considering that causing a Miscast also causes Irresistible Force this time around (or so they say), I think the Ring is perfect in 8e. Too perfect, perhaps.

Doesn't work that way. There are no more miscasts.

If you roll double sixes, you get IF, and then roll on the miscast table. Rolling double 1's is no longer a miscast.

there is a specific section referencing items that cause miscasts, which says you just roll on the miscast table - it doesn't cause the spell to go IF (Or to fail).


that SINGLE magic Item isn't going to win you the game im sorrry...

Au contraire. The 8th ed miscast table is absolutely insane. A single miscast can easily win you the game. An item that means your opponents can't cast any spells within a 30" front of the board most definitely can win you the game if your opponent went magic heavy.


People are complaning about the ring now but after seeing the new book have you guys even thought about or realized the major boost that High Elves got? You think the ring is bad, JUST WAIT till HE players start to realize what they got handed to them on a sliver platter in 8th ed.

I am completely unworried about HE in 8th ed, and think they lost more than any other army except TK. Swordmasters are a joke in 8th ed. They lose to dwarven warriors with greatweapons :p

SilasOfTheLambs
18-06-2010, 00:30
Skyros is correct. Items or abilities that cause irresistible force without rolling 2 6's (or more) will not result in having to roll on the miscast table. The rules are deliberately very specific and clear on this.

This will mean that characters who have access to an ability like that will become disgustingly powerful (teclis anyone?).

As for my poor empire guys now having to roll dice on their bounds, we're going to miscast all day. I am very interested to see how they deal with this. Clearly if empire priests (or anybody with a bound item or innate spell) roll double 6's, they forget the spell or the item is smashed, but no miscast chart. HOWEVER if the ring of hotek is specifically stated to cause a miscast, steve the priest could be in a world of hurt.... his spell didn't go off, AND he got slapped with the miscast, which is a great surprise to him as he's not even a wizard.

Oh dear oh dear....

minionboy
18-06-2010, 01:27
Skyros is correct. Items or abilities that cause irresistible force without rolling 2 6's (or more) will not result in having to roll on the miscast table. The rules are deliberately very specific and clear on this.

how many times did I try to explain this?

Wakerofgods
18-06-2010, 01:43
Except that if you raise the cost of the Ring those combos become impossible, which is my point.
.

Considering how much magic defense it offers and how much of a massive area it covers, those combinations should be impossible.

Also didn't you also say in another post in this topic that people should just cast 'outside' of the 24" bubble? What are you on? That's the entire battle line if the DE player wants it to be.

The ring is OP and I think this is the first time I've even seen anyone argue otherwise. Are you trolling?

FleshCollector
19-06-2010, 00:44
I'll argue that the RoH is no more or less OP than items like Infernal Puppet, Van Hels Speculum, Cupped Hands, Banner of Despair, Storm Banner, or many others. Most armies have items that may dramatically impact a given game against a given list but so what. Learn to play better or make a list that a single item won't incapacitate your entire battle plan.

I've played with and against the RoH and have Massacred a list with the item with a magic heavy list. It really wasn't that much of a stretch of my imagination considering one comprehends that no matter the circumstances there are some things you can do and some things you cannot do. So adapt rather on focusing on what you cannot do when the RoH is present. On the battle boards I play on they are 4x6' leaving plenty of areas to cast spells outside the influence of the RoH.

As a player of the Ring issued to the Black Guard Tower Master, I certainly feel safer with the main bulk of my infantry forces protected but those infantry forces are quite vulnerable when their supports moving along the flanks are dead. Most folks seem to focus more on what they cannot do rather than what they can do so no wonder they seem to be so often defeated. They've already lost in their minds.

Ramius4
19-06-2010, 05:11
I hope it's not errata'd at all.

In 8th ed, just charge one wizard after another into the unit carrying the damn thing then roll as many dice as you feel necessary to miscast. Repeat as necessary until your opponent stops bringing it. Eat that DE scum:p

Maoriboy007
19-06-2010, 08:29
I hope it's not errata'd at all.

In 8th ed, just charge one wizard after another into the unit carrying the damn thing then roll as many dice as you feel necessary to miscast. Repeat as necessary until your opponent stops bringing it. Eat that DE scum:p

I was thinking that that was the one good thing about it myself. Plough into the most expensive DE unit with and expendable wizard and cast the most expensive spell possible. If the spell is cast = win if the wizard blows u p= chance to nuke DE unit.

Pskyrunner
19-06-2010, 08:44
RoH is in the errata but what i read quickly its just clarifying which kind of spells trigger the ring and which not.

SideshowLucifer
19-06-2010, 13:31
The ring was much much more potent in 7th edition because of how a magic army had to be built. Now in 8th, everyone has magic ability and doesn't have to tailor a list for it. Sure, it offers great magical denial, but it denies the DE player as well and with all the buffs and hexes, that's actualy a liability for the Str3 T3 DE's.
I never brought the item unless I was playing agaisnt Chaos myself in the past or if I didn't want to bring magic, but its amazing how many tmes it has done nothing in a game.
It is one of those items that either plays a huge role, nor none at all but we only ever realy hear about the first.

Maoriboy007
19-06-2010, 13:43
The ring was much much more potent in 7th edition because of how a magic army had to be built. Now in 8th, everyone has magic ability and doesn't have to tailor a list for it. Sure, it offers great magical denial, but it denies the DE player as well and with all the buffs and hexes, that's actualy a liability for the Str3 T3 DE's.
I never brought the item unless I was playing agaisnt Chaos myself in the past or if I didn't want to bring magic, but its amazing how many tmes it has done nothing in a game.
It is one of those items that either plays a huge role, nor none at all but we only ever realy hear about the first.

Its still a majorly overpowered item, especially if it doesn't trigger the benefit of ultimate force. It has and still does dictate a huge part of how magic plays in a came for a pittance in points cost (in comparison to the major cost of a wizard).
More often than not it will play a huge role unless the opposing player sacrifices his magic phase to protect himself.

Why do Elf players (& DE players in particular) go on about being str and T. Doesn't the majority of troops in the warhammer world have the same or less? Not to metion Elves gain in other stats, high initiative suddenly making them extremely powerful in 8 th edition.

Kerill
19-06-2010, 14:13
Ring of Hotek debates always end the same way it seems. Someone dares to point out that it is the most overpowered item in the game and then the DE players line up to say no its fine or that it should have a very small nerf.

Going from everyones profile here:

SideshowLucifer- first fantasy army- Dark elves
Flesh Collector- first fantasy army- Dark elves
unwanted being- current main army- dark elves
a18no- first fantasy army- dark elves.

These threads are always a bit pointless. Almost everyone can agree the ring of hotek is a silly item in 7th and will be worse in 8th if not erratad except for dark elf players who will (perhaps naturally) defend their army from any perception of cheese.

MR3 for one unit is 45 points and I would far rather have the ring than MR3. Then add on the fact that it has a 24" bubble of protection and then think about it. Even the Ogre miscast item (miscasts on 1,2 or 3 on that unit) makes you seriously reconsider casting spells on it and that is more expensive, far less effective and doesn't have a massive range of effect.

Anyway, back to the DE players...

sulla
19-06-2010, 23:08
I hope it's not errata'd at all.

In 8th ed, just charge one wizard after another into the unit carrying the damn thing then roll as many dice as you feel necessary to miscast. Repeat as necessary until your opponent stops bringing it. Eat that DE scum:p:evilgrin: Brilliant! I never thought abbout that.

I'm sure you will be seeing that sort of thing lots. Slann throwing maximum dice at a spell every turn to try to cupped hands an enemy mage to death early on in the game...

RichBlake
19-06-2010, 23:34
Dark Elf players arguing the Ring of Hotek is fine as it is will really loose this argument. So will any non-Dark Elf player arguing it's fine, though I haven't seen any of them as of yet.

The ring has an effective range of 30", it practically stops you from casting magic in it. True you cannot cast magic either, but while DE magic is good, Cold One knights with hatred and the Hydra banner don't really care for magic as in the current (7th) edition they can (and do) eat anything.

The most expensive Talisman in my Empire book is 50 points, it gives me a 5+ ward and MR(2). Considering my generic lords (M4, WS5, BS5, S4, T4, I5, A3, LD9) can get a 1+ save if mounted I personally think that a 1+ armour save followed by a 5+ ward or 3+ ward against magic (in the new edition) is probably worth it. The banner that gives me MR(3) is now a 4+ ward against magical damage for ONE unit and I think that is worth the 30 points on any expensive unit.

How about a 25 point ring that gives a 4+ ward against magical damage to all units within 12? That would be totally worth it.

See where I'm going? The RoH's ability is far better then a 4+ ward and it costs less and effects more units.

At the end of the day the RoH cancels out a phase almost entirely, you'd be surprised just how much of an army you can cram into 30". The Storm Banner cancels out the shooting hpase almost entirely, however that works for a random number of turns and when it runs out it's gone for good. That costs 50 points.

Either you think all the items I have mentioned should cost less or you believe the ring should cost more imo. Yes you could change the effects of the ring, but even at 6" I still believe 25 points to be an auto include.

My attitude is that if you find yourself taking it in every list, it's not balanced. The only reason you don't take the ring is if you want to cast magic, and since DE are more then capable of womping on everyone else without casting a single spell thats not really a downside...

Foxbat
20-06-2010, 00:03
Given how nasty the Loss of Control results have become as compared to the old 7th edition Miscast results, maybe the time has come for GW just to retire the RoH completely and errata it out of existence...

SideshowLucifer
20-06-2010, 01:37
It's the grass is greener syndrome. I feel the Swordmasters and Orgn gun are two of the most broken things in the game outside of special characters, but the people who ave those to use don't think so. The RoH has underperformed in every game I have brought it except the one ime I used it agaisnt a magic heavy WoC army.
When used agaisnt Lizards, it backfires on to me. When agaisnt Dwarves, its worthless. Agaisnt a lot of WoC armies, useless cause there is no magic. Agaisnt VC, its usualy worthless cause they jusr roll one die. etc.
Mileage varies, but it underperforms enough that I stopped bringing it. If it was the be all end all, I'd bring it every time. I couldn't care less if the item stays or not since it seems like it outrages people, but I really don't see it worse then some of the other things out there.
I'd argue the reverse ward save is the broken item.

Kerill
20-06-2010, 03:54
Swordmasters and organ fun are completely fine in most people's eyes (and don't cost 25 points).

The reverse ward is broken, but the ring is far far worse.

fall3nang3l
20-06-2010, 06:24
thinking evilish here, slann takes cupped hands. You target a mega spell against the weilder, If you don't cook the wielder of the ring you can cook a caster. Seems an effective use to counter use the ring

Ok fellow Warseeriens. We cannot solve every situation with a Slann.

LKHERO
20-06-2010, 07:52
Swordmasters are broken?

This thread is so pathetic it's laughable. How do you fathom a T3 5+ save elf to be broken? Just shoot the damn unit.

The thing about the DE book is that almost everything in there is underpriced. The items, the units, the Hydra..etc. Come 8th Ed, I better see some serious errata happen to that stupid Ring. It's time to make things right.

Fellblade
20-06-2010, 08:07
I didn't read this whole thread, but from what I saw in a preview copy of the 8th Ed book the ring is useless now. There's no such thing as a "miscast" anymore, so I don't see how the ring has any function. Granted, I didn't have a chance to sit and read everything about the revised magic system.
All I saw was you rolled on the "miscast table" if you cast a spell with "Irresistible Force". You can throw 6 dice and roll all 1s and nothing happens to your wizard, in fact the spell will still go off if the casting value was low enough.

Teclis on the other hand... he's in for a world of hurt since he gets IF on any double. The "best" result for him would be losing d3 magic levels... anything else gets pretty horrific.
The Slann "discard 6s" and the O&G spell that turns 6s into 1s will actually prevent "miscasting" since you can't roll double 6s.

LKHERO
20-06-2010, 08:11
I really fear that the FAQ for Ring will be replacing the word miscast with "lose control".

If that's the case, then I'll probably stop playing the game. It'll prove to me once and for all that GW have no idea what they're doing.

Dokushin
20-06-2010, 08:30
It's the grass is greener syndrome. I feel the Swordmasters and Orgn gun are two of the most broken things in the game outside of special characters, but the people who ave those to use don't think so. The RoH has underperformed in every game I have brought it except the one ime I used it agaisnt a magic heavy WoC army.
When used agaisnt Lizards, it backfires on to me. When agaisnt Dwarves, its worthless. Agaisnt a lot of WoC armies, useless cause there is no magic. Agaisnt VC, its usualy worthless cause they jusr roll one die. etc.
Mileage varies, but it underperforms enough that I stopped bringing it. If it was the be all end all, I'd bring it every time. I couldn't care less if the item stays or not since it seems like it outrages people, but I really don't see it worse then some of the other things out there.
I'd argue the reverse ward save is the broken item.

It's not "grass is greener" syndrome. It's "item is broken" syndrome. :D

An item that costs 25 points doesn't ever really "underperform." You're hanging out with stuff like power stones. Think about that. A power stone makes one spell a little more likely to go off, increasing the chance to miscast. The RoH shuts down any serious magic in a bubble that can cover the entire space between deployment zones. It's possible, and even likely, that using the power stone can lead to no effect or even harm; the fact that the RoH might have no effect is the nature of a preventive item.

The ring is severely underpriced at 25 points. It would be stupid not to take it. The control it gives you over the battlefield (and the ability to shut down 25% of your opponent's phases) is tremendous. What if Lizards got a 25 point magic item that reduced charge range by d6 inside a 24"-wide bubble? Or a 25 point magic item that gave -2 to all shooting within 12"? Or a 25 point magic item that reduced each model's attacks by 1 within 12"?

It's ludicrous. It's something everyone has to deal with, so, yeah, there are strategies for dealing with it; but that doesn't mean it's in any way a fair item or that use of it isn't simultaneously taking advantage of poor item pricing and a foregone conclusion for competitive play.

SideshowLucifer
20-06-2010, 16:20
LEt me rephrase then, the ring is a broken item in a game with with broken items, units, characters, and monsters. It's one item that think is seen a lot less then most people make it seem to be seem.
In all the games I have faced DE's I think I have faced the ring twice and it didn't realy matter in the game. In all the games I have watched with D' I have seen thering maybe a dozen times, and they only sometimes have an extravagent effect on the table.
I think the existance of the ring is more annoying to people then people actualy playing the thing.

As to the comment of just shot the swordmasters, well usualy the ring is on a champion, just kill the champion. It's one guy. Should be just as easy as killing a unit with shooting no?

ekalb
20-06-2010, 17:23
LEt me rephrase then, the ring is a broken item in a game with with broken items, units, characters, and monsters. It's one item that think is seen a lot less then most people make it seem to be seem.
In all the games I have faced DE's I think I have faced the ring twice and it didn't realy matter in the game. In all the games I have watched with D' I have seen thering maybe a dozen times, and they only sometimes have an extravagent effect on the table.
I think the existance of the ring is more annoying to people then people actualy playing the thing.

As to the comment of just shot the swordmasters, well usualy the ring is on a champion, just kill the champion. It's one guy. Should be just as easy as killing a unit with shooting no?

Sorry about not understanding your post,but were you talking about the ring of hoteck or about highelves with a ring of some sort in swordmasters?

Kerill
20-06-2010, 17:34
LEt me rephrase then, the ring is BY FAR THE MOST broken item in a game with with broken items, units, characters, and monsters.

Another rephrase ^

I think the last item this broken existed was the forbidden rod back in 5th edition, and even that was exhausted on a 1 or 2

And of course the ring of horek would actually trump the forbidden rod in a game nowadays.

WHFB isn't balance, there are issues everywhere, but some are so glaringly huge that they can safely be complained about.

Foxbat
20-06-2010, 18:39
The only thing that really stands out as broken is the power of the ring in 8th if it does cause a miscast for every double. It would be far better off errata'd as doubles cause the spell to fail. Still powerful, but not ridiculous. But who knows... perhaps it will be errata'd out of existence in the armybook faq's. It's really not worth getting worked up about any of this stuff till after we see the rules and the faq's/errata together. Changing to a “failed” spell on a double is almost as powerful as failing to cast a spell ends that caster’s magic turn. As such its current point cost would still be far too low. I suppose that under this approach you would feel that when your opponent does roll double 6s he/she would suffer the Loss of Control table while you don’t suffer the effects of the IF spell as it simply “failed”, right (also consider how it would work with the Book of Hoeth or Teclis)?


In all the games I have faced DE's I think I have faced the ring twice and it didn't realy matter in the game. In all the games I have watched with D' I have seen thering maybe a dozen times, and they only sometimes have an extravagent effect on the table.
I think the existance of the ring is more annoying to people then people actualy playing the thing.
My experience facing off against DE has been that almost all have had the RoH and of these games only once did I manage not to be affected by its negative effects.

Given the Loss of Control table in 8th, the item needs to be deleted or priced out of the market.

Maoriboy007
20-06-2010, 21:00
If the ring was 50 points would DE playes still take it? Probably many would depending on their tactics, but it would be a consious decision rather than an automatic no brainer. As it is it might not be taken because the DE player plans to use magic.

If the ring cause IF as well as a miscasts, I would have less complaints about the item (although it would still be underpriced)

SideshowLucifer
21-06-2010, 03:16
Ok,lets get rid of the ring, ASF, Hydra, Hellpit, the IF casting book the high elves get, cupped hands, blackguard, the skaven banner that kills shooting, the doom wheel, umm..anyone else have anythign they feel is overpowered an should be gotten rid of?

Kerill
21-06-2010, 04:54
Ok,lets get rid of the ring, ASF, Hydra, Hellpit, the IF casting book the high elves get, cupped hands, blackguard, the skaven banner that kills shooting, the doom wheel, umm..anyone else have anythign they feel is overpowered an should be gotten rid of?

No, just get rid of the ring and that's fine. Nothing else is close to being as bad despite your attempts.

If the ring was gone we could then throw magic at the (admittedly underpriced and extremely powerful) hydra. We could also throw magic at the ASF blackguard deathstar, even if they had MR3, or at least pick at nearby units.

After the detritus that DE players had to deal with for their previous awful army book having some really good stuff isn't a problem- blackguard, harpies, shades, maybe even the hydra and reverse ward are understandable. The ring is just going too far.

Doom wheel isn't that bad, abomination is basically in the same class as the hydra, cupped hands was fine although maybe a bit much in 8th. Storm banner isn't the end of the world either, although 55 points would be better.

Dokushin
21-06-2010, 05:04
Ok,lets get rid of the ring, ASF, Hydra, Hellpit, the IF casting book the high elves get, cupped hands, blackguard, the skaven banner that kills shooting, the doom wheel, umm..anyone else have anythign they feel is overpowered an should be gotten rid of?

Actually, you've got a good example in there.

Book of Hoeth: doubles for one wizard are IF. 100 pts.
Ring of Hotek: Spells for everyone in a 24" bubble are miscast. 25 pts.

Do you really not see the imbalance there?

Crucio
21-06-2010, 05:10
Actually, you've got a good example in there.

Book of Hoeth: doubles for one wizard are IF. 100 pts.
Ring of Hotek: Spells for everyone in a 24" bubble are miscast. 25 pts.

Do you really not see the imbalance there?

Don't even bother, you'll never convince him.

For some reason, all Dark Elf players are convinced that the Ring of Hotek is a fair item to take, despite the amount of insanity it causes on the battlefield for 25 points that can be taken on a unit Champion. Quite absurd.

Ganymede
21-06-2010, 05:18
Ring of hotek: the spell still goes through (in 7th it was dispelled, not in 8th), and after that make same as the cupped hand. BUT the item can kill dark elf mage too.

This is not true.

The book makes mention that items that grant irresistable force or a miscast don't do their opposite automatically. With these items, such as the ring, it is possible to miscast without the spell automatically going through.

On the other hand, having a miscast doesn't necessarily indicate that the spell automatically fails.

HeroFox
21-06-2010, 05:35
So would that also mean that the Book of Hoeth, which allows a IF off any doubles, can or cannot be a miscast?

I thought by reading the rules today that if you IF, you miscast.

SideshowLucifer
21-06-2010, 12:36
Only double 6's would be a miscast, so the book wuld give IF on other doubles safely.
As for not convincing me, I just feel that there are just as many other things which I feel impact my game too and think its just silly that people keep harping on the Dark Elves.
Thew Ring is basicly worthless agaisnt VC, OK, TK, any Khornite Daemon or WoC list, and Dwarves. It cuts deep usualy agaisnt Empire, Skaven (only sometimes), some WoC lists, and HE. The rest of the games it can go either way.
As I said before, I wouldn't care if they took the Ring out or changed the cost or anything. It isn't usualy hard to kill the guy who carries it anyways and I don't tend to bring it unless I'm facing a Flickering Fire/Gateway list (which I think is far, far more broken then the ring).

Kerill
21-06-2010, 13:22
Useless against WOC? You are mental mate. Puppet allows a small adjustment, doesn't cancel the effects of a miscast. Useless against VC? For raising perhaps (but in new edition there will be a LOT less 1 die spam. And for vanhels the most powerful spell it works just fine.

Incidentally how do you expect WOC players to kill the hydra without flickering fire/gateway? In 7th what chaos unit has any chance whatsoever against the BG deathstar.

It seems you just want an auto win button for the DE.

Not hard to kill the guy who carried it? You mean the guy in the deathstar? With the ASF and 20 or so re-rolling to hit killing blow attacks in the first rank? Next to the guy with the 1+ save and 2+ ward who can challenge any character nasties that come along?

Kerill
21-06-2010, 13:23
Useless against WOC? You are mental mate. Puppet allows a small adjustment, doesn't cancel the effects of a miscast. Useless against VC? For raising perhaps (but in new edition there will be a LOT less 1 die spam. And for vanhels the most powerful spell it works just fine.

Incidentally how do you expect WOC players to kill the hydra without flickering fire/gateway? In 7th what chaos unit has any chance whatsoever against the BG deathstar.

It seems you just want an auto win button for the DE.

Not hard to kill the guy who carried it? You mean the guy in the deathstar? With the ASF and 20 or so re-rolling to hit killing blow attacks in the first rank? Next to the guy with the 1+ save and 2+ ward who can challenge any character nasties that come along?

Edit:
Arrrghh Just realised I'm getting drawn into one of these pointless arguments again with DE players.

You are right, in fact the ring is horrifically undercosted, one of the worst items in the game, should be free. It appears in almost every single list on the internet and tournaments because DE players are sporting chaps who love to give some advantages to their opponents so they can use their superior deathstar tactics to win, not some cheesey combination of items.

willowdark
21-06-2010, 16:45
I think the reason DE players become advocates is because they see the Ring n every game. If you don't play DE, you only see the ring when you play them.

Regardless of how it actually functions in that game, if you are a person who feels it's important to have an opinion you can easily supplement that experience with math or by articulating scenarios that absolutely maximize it's impact, like Dreadlord and/or Master w/ GW in ASF Black Guard. Now, that combo is certainly possible, but it's far from the only way to play DE, and from my point of view it is by far the least desirable.

I advocate for the Ring because I see it in every game. Literally, since the book came out and I've been playing 7th ed DE I've had it in every game and I've never really seen it ruin the game for anyone.

Once a Slann miscast trying to Lore-of-Metal my CoK, and Cupped Hands-ed it back at me. The following turn he charge said Knights in the flank with Skinks and pulled them away from the main battle line so never cast at them again.

Twice it caused a Lord of Change to miscast, who subsequently re-rolled his Dice to avoid the miscast.

Once it saved my Knights from Skaven Warplightning. Once it Saved my Hydra from the Little Waaagh! magic missile.

The only time it swung the game in a significant way was by saving my Knights from Rot, Glorious Rot allowing them to charge the next turn and win the game when I would have lost. There you have it. Once in two years has the RoH been game changing.

Why is this? Because my opponents don't cast around my Knights. It's not like I'm undefeated. I have a fairly average win/loss record against what I consider to be good opponents, including several big wins at local tourneys with 30 entries.

So, for 25 points I have an item that can _potentially_ wreck the enemy, _potentially_ wreck my army, since I go magic heavy, and can easily be neutralized by patient, solid tactics.

Can we please just get over it? It's not like the Ring is going anywhere, Errata included.

Eumerin
21-06-2010, 19:45
Hydra only get to breathe once, and some of the wounds inflicted on the hydra go to the handlers, meaning monster reactions happen sooner, possibly even before he gets to attack in combat.

Actually, the rules handling hit allocation between the hydra and the handlers are in the Dark Elf army book, so the handlers still won't get hit by missile fire until the hydra is dead.

Barring something in the DE FAQ regarding this, of course.

grumbaki
21-06-2010, 20:12
I think the reason DE players become advocates is because they see the Ring n every game. If you don't play DE, you only see the ring when you play them.

Regardless of how it actually functions in that game, if you are a person who feels it's important to have an opinion you can easily supplement that experience with math or by articulating scenarios that absolutely maximize it's impact, like Dreadlord and/or Master w/ GW in ASF Black Guard. Now, that combo is certainly possible, but it's far from the only way to play DE, and from my point of view it is by far the least desirable.

I advocate for the Ring because I see it in every game. Literally, since the book came out and I've been playing 7th ed DE I've had it in every game and I've never really seen it ruin the game for anyone.

Once a Slann miscast trying to Lore-of-Metal my CoK, and Cupped Hands-ed it back at me. The following turn he charge said Knights in the flank with Skinks and pulled them away from the main battle line so never cast at them again.

Twice it caused a Lord of Change to miscast, who subsequently re-rolled his Dice to avoid the miscast.

Once it saved my Knights from Skaven Warplightning. Once it Saved my Hydra from the Little Waaagh! magic missile.

The only time it swung the game in a significant way was by saving my Knights from Rot, Glorious Rot allowing them to charge the next turn and win the game when I would have lost. There you have it. Once in two years has the RoH been game changing.

Why is this? Because my opponents don't cast around my Knights. It's not like I'm undefeated. I have a fairly average win/loss record against what I consider to be good opponents, including several big wins at local tourneys with 30 entries.

So, for 25 points I have an item that can _potentially_ wreck the enemy, _potentially_ wreck my army, since I go magic heavy, and can easily be neutralized by patient, solid tactics.

Can we please just get over it? It's not like the Ring is going anywhere, Errata included.

Here are a few examples of times I played against it. The dark elf player took 2 hydras and a dragon. I got lucky that I had 1 hydra too far outside the ring and my lvl 4 shadow mage managed to pit of shades 1 hydra. After that he kept his entire army inside the bubble, and my lvl 4 and 2 lvl 2's couldn't magic anything. Luckily, I got a cannon shot that took out his dragon, but without that I was pretty much screwed.

In another game I brought a lvl 4 fire wizard in a DoW army to take out his hydras. Again, both hydras within the 12'', along with his CoK and everything else of importance. My magic can only touch his crossbowmen, shades and dark riders. Very much not good, especially with an army which only has light cannons and nothing which can stand up to a hydra in close combat.

-----

Those are two examples, and I haven't faced the ring that much. Pretty much whenever I see it my heart drops if I have any magic because I know that I can't touch anything important in the enemy army. It is broken beyond belief, but I'm glad that it hasn't ruined your games.

And for the record, I had fun in the games above (won the first one thanks to some good shooting) and lost the second one horribly (Ring of Hotek destroyed my mages, and then his army tore me apart).

It probably won't win games by itself, but by gosh it sure does help. However, I do love it when my opponent takes the ring if I am going with all warrior priests or am bringing my dwarf army. In those cases, it certainly isn't game breaking. :)

BramGaunt
21-06-2010, 20:26
Ring of Hotek is nerfed in 8th. Know why? Because there are no more miscasts. And there is a great number of spells capable to target a specified model. Target the ring-bearer and you are rid of it. The DE player has to chose whether to dispel the spell, in which case you would not suffer the loss of control, or let it be cast, with the short moment of enjoying your mage suffering something bad, and afterwards losing his Ring.

And no, it does not affect bound spells, they can produce irresistible force, but no loss of control.

theunwantedbeing
21-06-2010, 20:29
Throwing your mage into a combat when then trying to cast will make the guy with the ring sweat.
Sure 2-4 is explode with a 1/3 chance of dying but its still a 5" template(no partials) against little 20mm base elves.

You will take your own worth in elves with you and the guy with the ring of hotek gets no say in it.

The ring isnt that bad at all really.
Its especailly dangers to use with casters nearby as well due to those explodey results and mages usually liking to be in units.

Skyros
21-06-2010, 21:49
RoH is in the errata but what i read quickly its just clarifying which kind of spells trigger the ring and which not.

That could be a pretty big deal, if, for example, augments the DE player cast didn't set off the ring. Or maybe if bound items didn't set it off. Remember anymore details?


The ring was much much more potent in 7th edition because of how a magic army had to be built.

The ring is much more potent in 8th edition because of (a) how much nastier the miscast table is (b) how you need to roll more dice to make your spells go off (c) You need to roll for your bound spells (before, you didn't).


It's the grass is greener syndrome. I feel the Swordmasters and Orgn gun are two of the most broken things in the game outside of special characters


Those, while powerful, are appropriately costed. And don't shut down an entire phase of the game for a span of 30" :p. Also, you'll be pleased to hear that swordmasters are getting much much more fragile in 8th ed. I think they get killed by equal points of dwarf warriors with GW.

WarmbloodedLizard
21-06-2010, 23:12
The DE player arguments in this thread are ridiculous. most other armies would easily have to pay 75 points for the ring of hotek. how can you even begin to argue that the ring isn't overpowered? for 25 points it should be a ONE USE item. for 30pts we could talk about a 6" bubble. at 50pts the spells could just fail.


listing other strong choices doesn't make the ring less OP. the things SideshowLucifer listed are really good, yes, but nowhere near the RoH. they don't singlehandedly disable an entire phase and they do have their weaknesses. The ring doesn't have a weakness.

Darktan
21-06-2010, 23:50
yes, RoH is horrific, but you can't say it disables a phase with no weakness, the weakness is, it disables a phase, if i were DE i wouldn't be taking a mage and the RoH, especially now you'll want to cast spells at your own units/close to them. i guess it's the 'i don't like magic button' (unless your TK of course, no miscasts! \o/)

(not that disabling magic for both players is fair, but at least it no longer stops the spell as well as the miscast)

Vidar
21-06-2010, 23:57
The DE player arguments in this thread are ridiculous. most other armies would easily have to pay 75 points for the ring of hotek. how can you even begin to argue that the ring isn't overpowered? for 25 points it should be a ONE USE item. for 30pts we could talk about a 6" bubble. at 50pts the spells could just fail.


Just to provide a reference:

The Ring existed in the 6th edition armybook.
It was 20 points for a 6" range (thus a 12" bubble).

I've never seen the Ring being used back then.

So why would 30pts for 6" be balanced?

deggaroth
22-06-2010, 00:19
The reason the ring was a staple item in 7th ed was because 90% of the spells that people used were magic missile type things with high casting values.(undead excepted) Now that I'm reading the rumours, magic missiles are one of 4 spell types used. We have all this other stuff like unit buffs, hexes, and power whirls. Currently, we don't know if the ring will be overpowered because we don't really know which spells will be the best. If 8th ed magic heavy armies continue to spam magic missiles type things and/or hexes with high casting values, the ring will most likely increase in power. However, if 8th ed magic heavy armies start trying to spam spells that are unit buffs or power whirls that scatter across the board, the ring will most likely decrease in power.

Another thing to take into consideration before declaring the ring overpowered or underpowered is how will 8th ed affect the rest of dark elf game mechanics. Will the slight nerf to the currently popular DE combat armies force DE players to take more magic making the ring a liability? Will the ring be harder to protect with the nerfs and/or changes to screening elements such as Harpies/DR, the buff to shooting, and the general bloody/faster paced cc?

WarmbloodedLizard
22-06-2010, 00:32
yes, RoH is horrific, but you can't say it disables a phase with no weakness, the weakness is, it disables a phase, if i were DE i wouldn't be taking a mage and the RoH, especially now you'll want to cast spells at your own units/close to them. i guess it's the 'i don't like magic button' (unless your TK of course, no miscasts! \o/)

(not that disabling magic for both players is fair, but at least it no longer stops the spell as well as the miscast)

yes, you're right. This really is is a slight weakness. but it still blocks the opponent a lot harder than the DE player. all the DE player has to do is step out of the bubble and wreak havoc.


Just to provide a reference:

The Ring existed in the 6th edition armybook.
It was 20 points for a 6" range (thus a 12" bubble).

I've never seen the Ring being used back then.

So why would 30pts for 6" be balanced?

I've only played the game for 2 years. I do not know the 6th ed DE book or BRB. My guess is, that the things in the book weren't generally underpriced and that the book didn't have choices such as ASF black guard, hydra, invincible lord, good champions that can take it or similar.
also, it might have been less effective, as for example Slann were immune to miscasts.

Eumerin
22-06-2010, 00:48
While the ring concerns me somewhat, I'm of the opinion that a multi-page thread on the topic is considerably more discussion than it merits. To be quite frank, the Cupped Hands scares me a hell of a lot more than the Ring does in 8th edition.

theunwantedbeing
22-06-2010, 00:48
yes, you're right. This really is is a slight weakness. but it still blocks the opponent a lot harder than the DE player. all the DE player has to do is step out of the bubble and wreak havoc.

You need multiple mages to do that, or preferrably a single level 4 who knows lots of spells and has extra dice by using the dagger.

Thing is, you can take a lone mage, run them at the guy with the ring and throw all your dice and then blow up creating a big 5" template of st10 death and qipe a larnge chunk of the enemy army out while having suffered a single wound off your 100pt mage.

The ring of hotek on a knight champion is a terrible idea now, simply because he and his mates are going to get blown to hell by the first mage who figures out that their champion is carrying the ring of hotek, as that template is especially brutal to knights.
250pts of knights and most of the enemy magical defence gone at the cost of a wound off your 100pt mage?

Seems like a reasonable deal to me.

Also with premeasuring you never need to be in range of the ring unless you want to be.

Also despite it being a 1/6 chance to miscast your level 4 mage can still hit spells with a casting value as high as 15 without miscasting. A 1/6 chance isnt that bad, I've seen all too many occasions where my opponent has just bene throwing 2 dice at spells all games and not got any doubles for several phases.

Don Zeko
22-06-2010, 02:10
I've only played the game for 2 years. I do not know the 6th ed DE book or BRB. My guess is, that the things in the book weren't generally underpriced and that the book didn't have choices such as ASF black guard, hydra, invincible lord, good champions that can take it or similar.
also, it might have been less effective, as for example Slann were immune to miscasts.

There were a lot of reasons that the Ring was never used in 6th. For one, Dark Elf combat troops were all far less effective than they are now (particularly black guard. Man did they suck in 6th), so Dark Elves had more incentive to run magic-heavy avoidance armies. You also couldn't put the ring on unit champions, so it was much harder to fit in a list. But most significantly, the ring itself was much worse. It had a 6" range, but that only applied to the mage casting a spell, not the target. So in order to force miscasts, you had to have somebody with the ring stand within 6" of the enemy mage, instead of now where you can put it in the middle of your army and protect it all from most spells.

We also couldn't get better than a 5+ ward save on our fighty characters and had no regeneration armor, and the hydra cost more points than currently and was much less effective. There are good reasons that 6th edition Dark Elves were considered such a bottom-tier army that GW released a mid-edition errata that buffed them slightly.

Kerill
22-06-2010, 02:38
I've seen all too many occasions where my opponent has just bene throwing 2 dice at spells all games and not got any doubles for several phases.

No you've seen all too many games where your opponent can't risk throwing more than 2 dice at spells meaning the big spells are impossible to get off and leading to a much higher failure rate (not reaching casting values) for mid range spells.

The ring doesn't have to cause a bunch of miscasts to completely smother the effects of a 300-500 point lord level caster.

Also as noted the ring in 6th was far far weaker than now. If it was the caster had to be within 12" of the ring then it would be a lot more reasonable.

SideshowLucifer
22-06-2010, 03:50
I'd gladly trade the ring for te bok that allows IF casting. I'd gladly pay the difference. I don't use he ring now, nor do I realy plan on using the thing. It always seems to screw me as bad or more then my opponents.
I would love to see the ring gone along with a few things I feel are broken in other armies as well, but I don't think it's going to happen in either direction.

kardar233
22-06-2010, 05:55
No you've seen all too many games where your opponent can't risk throwing more than 2 dice at spells meaning the big spells are impossible to get off and leading to a much higher failure rate (not reaching casting values) for mid range spells.

The ring doesn't have to cause a bunch of miscasts to completely smother the effects of a 300-500 point lord level caster.

Also as noted the ring in 6th was far far weaker than now. If it was the caster had to be within 12" of the ring then it would be a lot more reasonable.

Give this man a cookie.

The people saying that the Ring doesn't actually cause many miscasts are missing the point, which is by stopping opponents from casting big spells into the radius the Ring has far more effect than just its miscasting.

HeroFox
22-06-2010, 06:29
Look at this thing. There is nothing in the Warhammer universe that should prevent casting for the fear of DEATH within a 24" bubble for 25 points.

'nuff said. Whoever disagrees should be considered insane.

WarmbloodedLizard
22-06-2010, 08:54
'nuff said. Whoever disagrees should be considered insane.

that. (electroshocks, plz :D)

Spiney Norman
22-06-2010, 09:04
2) Much higher casting values, more dice rolled per spell, means many more doubles rolled. Before, many spells could be cast on 2 dice. Many of the default spells could be cast on 1 dice often. The 'really hard' ones required 3.

In 8th, casting values have gone by quite a bit. Something that requires 'only' two dice to cast is one of the cheapest, with many default spells needing 3 and many spells requiring as many as 5 to have a good chance of casting. Your chances of getting a double are much higher with more dice.


This is somewhat misleading. For a start casting values have stayed proportionally comparable to 7th Ed casting values, by that I mean that spells that did the same as they did in 7th Edition (for example low level fire ball) have pretty well the same casting value as they did before, however many spells now have scalable casting, which means you can choose to cast a harsher version of the spell for a higher casting value, the greater the risk, the greater the gain But, if faced with the ring of Hotek, there's nothing to stop you casting the lower value versions to reduce the chance of doubles occuring. Its true that the harsher spells have high casting values, but thats because they wreak unholy destruction when they go off, once more, greater risk=greater reward.

Alternatively, if you are worried about the ring, just choose a lore with a high volume of augmentive spells, which will cast on your own troops, most likely outside of the ring's range.

In any case there are only 3 armies which don't have their own lores anyway (Empire, Bretonnia & Lizardmen), which means that everyone else can opt to use their existing lores with the "lower" casting values and still get their level bonus added to it. Most level 4s using non-BRB lores will be able to cast the majority of their spells on 2D6 with little trouble.

Add into this the fact that most wizards will be adding +2 or +4 to their casting rolls anyway, and spells have actually got easier to cast in many cases.

The big advantage I can see is that the ring no longer trumps the book of hoeth which is over 3 times its points, since IF and miscast can now occur together.

VetSgtSchaeffer
22-06-2010, 10:31
Deggaroth at the top of this page hit it on the head.

Your Mum Rang
22-06-2010, 10:36
Agreed, best post here.

Don Zeko
22-06-2010, 16:14
Give this man a cookie.

The people saying that the Ring doesn't actually cause many miscasts are missing the point, which is by stopping opponents from casting big spells into the radius the Ring has far more effect than just its miscasting.


Look at this thing. There is nothing in the Warhammer universe that should prevent casting for the fear of DEATH within a 24" bubble for 25 points.

'nuff said. Whoever disagrees should be considered insane.

This and this. It isn't impossible to use magic against an army with the ring, but it is extremely dangerous, and even if you don't cast into the bubble the ring is still providing enormous protection from magic (probably better than magic restistance 3 or 4) to every unit in a huge area. Oh, and the ring also completely neutralizes the Book of Hoeth. This is worth way more than 25 points, and will almost certainly be worth way more than 25 points in 8th.

Spiney Norman
22-06-2010, 16:50
This and this. It isn't impossible to use magic against an army with the ring, but it is extremely dangerous, and even if you don't cast into the bubble the ring is still providing enormous protection from magic (probably better than magic restistance 3 or 4) to every unit in a huge area. Oh, and the ring also completely neutralizes the Book of Hoeth. This is worth way more than 25 points, and will almost certainly be worth way more than 25 points in 8th.

But in 8th the ring WONT neutralise the book of Hoeth, both items will work together, you'll just get IF AND miscast on every double. Bear in mind that miscast does not trump IF in 8th because when loss of control happens they both occur together.

HeroFox
22-06-2010, 17:10
But in 8th the ring WONT neutralise the book of Hoeth, both items will work together, you'll just get IF AND miscast on every double. Bear in mind that miscast does not trump IF in 8th because when loss of control happens they both occur together.

Yeah, that sounds pretty fair now that I think about it.

A 100 point arcane item that can only be carried by an expensive lord-level Archmage without room a scroll should get blown to high heaven because of a 25 point ring that can be carried on unit champions.

Pretty fair.

Edited for more: Even if indirect (Power Whirls) and buffs are going to the best spells, a 25 point item should not prevent Direct damage, hexes and Magic missiles.

SideshowLucifer
22-06-2010, 17:15
I'd trade the elves in a second for the book. Always thought it would have made more sense for the high elves to get the defensive abilities and the dark elves to get the offensive ones.

Alltaken
22-06-2010, 19:30
Just to provide a reference:

The Ring existed in the 6th edition armybook.
It was 20 points for a 6" range (thus a 12" bubble).

I've never seen the Ring being used back then.

So why would 30pts for 6" be balanced?

I may not know too much of 6th so please feel free to correct me. But DE were not close to the actual power level now, right? Or so survibable, there are a couple of places you can place the RoH now and keep it relatively safe.

Besides a 6" bubble is really limited and dangerous range, it would make the bearer more obvious. Indeed it its totally broken, more so nowadays with humongous miscasts. Because in and out of vacuum calculation it brings too much for too little. Extremely cost effective, vaible at a terribly low risk for the army.

Maoriboy007
22-06-2010, 20:48
Just to provide a reference:

The Ring existed in the 6th edition armybook.
It was 20 points for a 6" range (thus a 12" bubble).

I've never seen the Ring being used back then.

So why would 30pts for 6" be balanced?

I beleive the caster had to be within range for the ring to work in 6th. Now ot includes the Target of the spell which makes a huge difference.


The reason the ring was a staple item in 7th ed was because 90% of the spells that people used were magic missile type things with high casting values.(undead excepted) Now that I'm reading the rumours, magic missiles are one of 4 spell types used. We have all this other stuff like unit buffs, hexes, and power whirls. Currently, we don't know if the ring will be overpowered because we don't really know which spells will be the best. If 8th ed magic heavy armies continue to spam magic missiles type things and/or hexes with high casting values, the ring will most likely increase in power. However, if 8th ed magic heavy armies start trying to spam spells that are unit buffs or power whirls that scatter across the board, the ring will most likely decrease in power.

Another thing to take into consideration before declaring the ring overpowered or underpowered is how will 8th ed affect the rest of dark elf game mechanics. Will the slight nerf to the currently popular DE combat armies force DE players to take more magic making the ring a liability? Will the ring be harder to protect with the nerfs and/or changes to screening elements such as Harpies/DR, the buff to shooting, and the general bloody/faster paced cc?

Are buffing spells unaffected? Thats one of the reasons the ring needs an FAQ, how does it work with the new rules. That 12" range can cover a large area.

a18no
22-06-2010, 21:09
Let use some argument against the ring:

Book of hoeth (or Teclis) is a item that create a bubble of 48" of diameter (4 feet) where a mage can cast his spell with IF, so OPPONENT CAN DO NOTHING AGAINST THAT. A bubble that cover 66% of the table by the way

Let be honest: right or no?? Can i do something against the book? Is there a way to remove that possibility with STRATEGIC DECISION?? The controller can control the item: throw more dice, the item is better. AND in 8th, no more miscast on double 1.. but a IF insteed....

It's the same thing with the puppet, hand of the ancient, etc. They are all items that keep the control in the player's hand, not in his opponent's.

Ring of hotek create a bubble of RISK, in a zone that cover less than 17% of the table. A bubble where it is POSSIBLE to suffer some (i admit) high counter hit. But, the controller has NO CONTROL on it other that placing everything near it. The choice is still in the hand of the OPPONENT. The dark elf player can augment the risk only by removing some possibility to his opponent, i can't force you to throw 5 dices at your spells, you can still choose what to do: you choose your spell (targeting or not), you choose the target (in or out), you choose how many dice youo throw.

In 7th, i admit that the ring was bad ONLY because the spell was a fail. I never had throw on the miscast table with stress, the bad thing was alaways to failed the casting.

In 8th, the spell still goes in. Dark elf will have to survived to the spell to be in good situation. You got just more control over the ring, and the controller just lose more control over it. In 8th, all power dice are common. So if i can place one of your mage in the bubble, it is almost impossible to bring 2 or more in it.

Marshal Torrick
22-06-2010, 21:12
Are you seriously comparing a 25pt item with a 100pt item? Seriously?!?

a18no
22-06-2010, 21:14
Are you seriously comparing a 25pt item with a 100pt item? Seriously?!?

I AM NOT, but some are doing apparently... so i'm bringing some counter argument.

And just to prove it: Gavin Thorpe blog (http://mechanicalhamster.wordpress.com/dark-elves-qa-on-the-rules/)


Q: How come the Ring of Hotek only costs 25 points and the Book of Hoeth (the High Elves – item) costs 100 points?

A: There are two major differences between the Book of Hoeth and the Ring of Hotek. Firstly, the Book of Hoeth doesn’t mechanically change the way your army works. You may decide on a magic-heavy strategy because of its presence, but that’s a tactical choice. The Ring of Hotek affects your own casters and so has a major impact on the strategies available to your army. To be used at its best you can have no magic users of your own and your army must remain compact around the wearer of the ring – it offers no protection to flanking forces, for example, or other units split from the main group. Add to this is the fact that the Dark Elves are an offensive army and their Dark Magic can be one of the major contributing factors. To throw out a whole phase in order to negate enemy magic is to leave out one of the greatest weapons in the Dark Elves arsenal. Your logic is inverted when you say that you have to go magic-heavy with the book and can go magic-light with the ring.
Secondly, the Ring of Hotek is a defensive item. Yes, it can be very effective at negating an investment made by your opponent, but it doesn’t directly contribute to the destruction of the enemy – and it can be avoided. The Book of Hoeth boosts the abilities of your own army, and greatly increases the potential damage that can be inflicted by the user. Yes, if you have the ring it can seriously annoy a High Elves player who has invested in the Book of Hoeth, but on the other hand against Dwarfs or an army without a lot of points spent on magic, its usefulness diminishes. Therefore its potency is not related to the decisions that you make, but is affected by the choices made by your opponent – choices that are out of your control.

Enjoy

HeroFox
22-06-2010, 21:55
Prove what? Gav Thorpe's reasoning?

His reasoning died a long time ago with the CSM Codex.


Book of hoeth (or Teclis) is a item that create a bubble of 48" of diameter (4 feet) where a mage can cast his spell with IF, so OPPONENT CAN DO NOTHING AGAINST THAT. A bubble that cover 66% of the table by the way

Table size is completely irrelevant. Is your entire army located in the entirety of 66% of the table and be targeted by my army? No. Is your entire army under the effects of the ring most of the time? Yes. Like I said. Gav Thorpe's reasoning is atrocious, as is his ability to write books.


Yes, if you have the ring it can seriously annoy a High Elves player who has invested in the Book of Hoeth, but on the other hand against Dwarfs or an army without a lot of points spent on magic, its usefulness diminishes.

LOL. I didn't even see this part.. it's worth editing my post. I love how he picked Dwarves, or any army without a lot spent on magic offense. This truly shows his incompetence as a designer. A 25pt item is hardly a investment. It's a freebie. It costs 1% of your army points in a 2250 game and doesn't free up a slot on any lords or heroes because you can carry it on a unit champion.

The ring is severely underpriced and a disgrace to all forms of game balance design.

Vidar
22-06-2010, 21:57
I beleive the caster had to be within range for the ring to work in 6th. Now ot includes the Target of the spell which makes a huge difference.


Indeed, I stand corrected.

loveless
22-06-2010, 22:06
I just dug this up:


Can you explain how the Ring of Hotek works in 8th Edition?

The Ring works the same in 8th as it did in 7th. The only change in 8th is that if the opponent complains about it at any point during the game, the Dark Elf player automatically wins and may take an opponent's model of his or her choosing as a penalty to said opponent. It is up to the Dark Elf player to return this model at his or her discretion.

There you go. Feel free to quote me on that :p

Don Zeko
22-06-2010, 22:07
I AM NOT, but some are doing apparently... so i'm bringing some counter argument.

And just to prove it: Gavin Thorpe blog (http://mechanicalhamster.wordpress.com/dark-elves-qa-on-the-rules/)


Enjoy

Gav's reasoning here is absurd. Compare the price of the ring to the price of items that grant magic resistance. In the DE book, you get null talismans that provide MR(1) for 15 points. The Ring's magic defense is clearly stronger than MR(1), and it can easily cover 4 or 5 units, which would run a solid 60-75 points to give MR(1), or 120-150 points for MR(2), if you had the magic item allowance with which to do so. It's true that the ring effectively prevents you from using magic as well, but it's not like anything is forcing you to take several hundred points of mages for your own ring to nullify. It was perfectly obvious from the get-go that competitive dark elf players would take the ring and not take any magic of their own beyond a caddy, in which case you get stronger magic defense than anyone else in the game for a grand total of 175 points, and then go spend the rest upon more troops with which to kill the enemies cowering, impotent mages.

Eumerin
22-06-2010, 22:15
Table size is completely irrelevant.

Given how many times in this very thread people have brought up the size of the Ring's 'bubble' to bolster their claims that it's underpriced, I beg to differ.

theunwantedbeing
22-06-2010, 22:16
The ring is severely underpriced and a disgrace to all forms of game balance design.

And will continue to work as it currently does for 25pts untill dark elves get a new book which is several years away.

On the flipside,
If its on a unit champion (and lets face it, why wouldn't it be?) then due to the larger number of attacks and diminished capacity to remove return attacks the bearer is now far less safe than he used to be.

On a black guard, he's ws5 t3 with a 5+ armour save.
Very easily killed seeing as your getting a minimum of 4 attacks on him, even basic grunts can fell him.

On a cold one knight he's ws5 t3 with a 2+ armour save, a better save but a bigger base so stuck with a minimum of 6 attacks facing him. st3 stuff may sturggle to fell him but st4 stuff has a much easier time of it, as does st5 stuff.

So getting rid of it isnt anything like as difficult as it used to be.
A level 4 can still cast plenty of 2 dice spells a turn, and with a 1/6 chance of a double you can happily throw 4 spells a turn with little actual risk.

Emeraldw
22-06-2010, 22:19
I AM NOT, but some are doing apparently... so i'm bringing some counter argument.

And just to prove it: Gavin Thorpe blog (http://mechanicalhamster.wordpress.com/dark-elves-qa-on-the-rules/)

Enjoy

Very interesting read. I appreciate him taking the time to answer the questions. Most of that doesn't bother me too much, however his answer to the Pendent issue was, imo, somewhat naive and doesn't address the real issue with the pendent. Namely that the lowest strength value in the basic game is 3, making it a 4+ save against all that and only gets better. Not to mention that the amount of spells and attacks with no strength vales are rare at best. That said, very interesting read.

HeroFox
22-06-2010, 22:31
Given how many times in this very thread people have brought up the size of the Ring's 'bubble' to bolster their claims that it's underpriced, I beg to differ.

Why did you bother quoting me if you only quoted a segment of the true argument?

Size coverage of the Book and the Ring doesn't matter because one is an extension of the spell and one covers the entire army from the spell. So in Gav's example, his logic was way off.

I can't see how in terms of balance design, the idea of a 100pt item should be even comparable to something like the ring.

Here are the facts:

The ring is priced at 25 points.
The ring can be carried on a unit champion.
The ring causes all spells targeting units (not models, entire units) within 12" of it to miscast on any doubles.
These spells include anything that targets a unit for its effect: Hexes, direct damage, magic missiles, even buffs or indirect if it says "target" anywhere in its name.

The book of hoeth is a 100 point arcane item.
The book can only be carried by a Lv.3 or higher Archmage, who is a Lord choice.
The book causes IF only if (2 conditions): 1. you roll doubles in the cast. 2. your cast exceeds the casting spells cost.
The book could miscast and just fail anyway. It's magic, it has a chance to fail.
These include all spells.

The only way you could get rid of the ring are these:
1. Assassinate the one carrying it via suicide charging something.
2. Magic kill it via Vaul's Unmaking, Ring of Corin or the old school Transmutation..etc (in 7th, Metal).

You cannot do the following to get rid of it:
1. Shoot the unit, because you can't pick him out.
2. Indirectly shoot the unit, because Look Out Sir is quite nice.
3. Use big magic on it.

Back in 7th, the ring could hide in just about anything and supply its buff without LoS needed. In this edition, we have slightly more answers, but this is what it is.

The Book had a chance to fail, costed all of the Wizard's points to carry it and you needed a Archmage to begin with to carry it. This is more than just 100 points. This is your Lord slot (doesn't matter now) and a Archmage ontop of the cost of the book.

The ring never has a chance to fail. The ring can be carried on a unit champ. The unit champ costs like 12 points at most. And your heroes and lords are free to carry whatever they want.

GW balance designers need to hire someone better. That is all, thanks.

HeroFox
22-06-2010, 22:52
And will continue to work as it currently does for 25pts untill dark elves get a new book which is several years away.

On the flipside,
If its on a unit champion (and lets face it, why wouldn't it be?) then due to the larger number of attacks and diminished capacity to remove return attacks the bearer is now far less safe than he used to be.

On a black guard, he's ws5 t3 with a 5+ armour save.
Very easily killed seeing as your getting a minimum of 4 attacks on him, even basic grunts can fell him.

On a cold one knight he's ws5 t3 with a 2+ armour save, a better save but a bigger base so stuck with a minimum of 6 attacks facing him. st3 stuff may sturggle to fell him but st4 stuff has a much easier time of it, as does st5 stuff.

So getting rid of it isnt anything like as difficult as it used to be.
A level 4 can still cast plenty of 2 dice spells a turn, and with a 1/6 chance of a double you can happily throw 4 spells a turn with little actual risk.

And all of those are examples of why the Ring succeeds in doing what it does in the first place. It made sure all of those units got in close combat, free from magic harassment and in good enough shape to fight. If the Black Guard Champ didn't carry the ring, believe me, Black Guard would be nuked from high orbit by all kinds of spells. I wonder if the ring never existed in the first place.. would the cries of Black Guard, the Hydra, or other Dark Elf units exist in the first place? Big spells could take care of those type of units.. but I'm afraid to cast them. See where I'm going with this?

It feels like I'm pulling teeth. Dark Elf teeth.

kardar233
23-06-2010, 00:01
Teclis or the Book are okay because you're paying close to a quarter of your entire army for either. It's reasonable that they do so much damage because you're paying so much for it. If I spent 400-500 points on say, a unit of Blood Knights, I'd expect them to wreck things left and right. Same goes for the magic users.

The Ring of Hotek, on the other hand, has the power to entirely negate that huge investment simply by denying it the ability to deal the amount of damage that you were paying for. Continuing the Blood Knight example, if I'm paying that much for a unit of Blood Knights, then it's going to take a hell of a lot of firepower to bring it down before it starts wreaking havoc. The point here is that you're neutralizing a unit by putting the same amount of investment into it. Having the Ring around is like having a 25-point item that, say, instantly kills 2d6 models in a unit, no saves allowed at all, one use only. It's completely neutralizing a unit with a disproportionately small investment.

That is why the Ring is overpowered.

Alltaken
23-06-2010, 00:59
Let use some argument against the ring:

Book of hoeth (or Teclis) is a item that create a bubble of 48" of diameter (4 feet) where a mage can cast his spell with IF, so OPPONENT CAN DO NOTHING AGAINST THAT. A bubble that cover 66% of the table by the way

Let be honest: right or no?? Can i do something against the book? Is there a way to remove that possibility with STRATEGIC DECISION?? The controller can control the item: throw more dice, the item is better. AND in 8th, no more miscast on double 1.. but a IF insteed....

It's the same thing with the puppet, hand of the ancient, etc. They are all items that keep the control in the player's hand, not in his opponent's.

Ring of hotek create a bubble of RISK, in a zone that cover less than 17% of the table. A bubble where it is POSSIBLE to suffer some (i admit) high counter hit. But, the controller has NO CONTROL on it other that placing everything near it. The choice is still in the hand of the OPPONENT. The dark elf player can augment the risk only by removing some possibility to his opponent, i can't force you to throw 5 dices at your spells, you can still choose what to do: you choose your spell (targeting or not), you choose the target (in or out), you choose how many dice youo throw.

In 7th, i admit that the ring was bad ONLY because the spell was a fail. I never had throw on the miscast table with stress, the bad thing was alaways to failed the casting.

In 8th, the spell still goes in. Dark elf will have to survived to the spell to be in good situation. You got just more control over the ring, and the controller just lose more control over it. In 8th, all power dice are common. So if i can place one of your mage in the bubble, it is almost impossible to bring 2 or more in it.

100 pts to 25 pts, I see 75 pts of reason for that difference.

sulla
23-06-2010, 02:35
Teclis or the Book are okay because you're paying close to a quarter of your entire army for either. It's reasonable that they do so much damage because you're paying so much for it.....We'll just have to wait and see in 8th, won't we. Unstoppable teclis with the new lore of death and the banner of sorcery removing a unit of dwarves and a character or two every turn might be a bit much.

As for the ring of hotek, it will be overpowered in 8th because the miscast table is overpowered, as will the cupped hands, and the infernal puppet/black tongue combo. The points values of those things might make them less or more overpowered than each other, but they are all out of whack for the power they can have.

The ring fluffwise is the funniest thing to me though. Hotek made it to protect himself from the dangers of magic, not to blow mages to high heaven.

Kerill
23-06-2010, 02:55
And will continue to work as it currently does for 25pts untill dark elves get a new book which is several years away.


So getting rid of it isnt anything like as difficult as it used to be.
A level 4 can still cast plenty of 2 dice spells a turn, and with a 1/6 chance of a double you can happily throw 4 spells a turn with little actual risk.

A level 4 has plenty of 2 dice spells per turn? Does your group play that a level 4 knows every spell in the game then? Its weird because when I look at lores of magic they tend to range and most of them aren't 2 dice spell. Often you have a default 5+ spell (in 7th) which is a 2 dice spell, but the others often need 3 or more dice to cast.

Lore of fire in 7th for example:
Fireball: 5+ (2 dice spell)
Flaming sword 5+ and generally useless
Burning head 8+- 3dice spell to cast.
Fieery blast- ditto
Conflagration of doom- 4 dice to cast
Wall of fire- 4 dice to cast.

So basically he can cast a fireball safely and flaming sword in the unlikely event its useful.

Then we have a hydra
"you can take it out easily with flaming spells" cry the WAAC dark elf players.

Well no because only fireball can be cast semi-safely near the ring (and even that has 6 times the miscast chance with no ring). And 3.5 S4 hits causes 0.77 wounda to the hydra.

Then we have two hydras
"you need more tactics like we have" cry the crazed WAAC DE players.

You could give DE an autowin item for 5 points in the next book and DE players would still say its not that cheesey- look out how many attacks a bloodthirster gets- that's really cheesey.

And that's the annoying bit to be fair, you have the right to take a WAAC army if your group is like that, but not admitting that certain combos are WAAC is dubious in the extreme. Or it means you really don't get it, which is why threads like these are full of comparisons, statistics and so on trying to explain to DE players where the problem lies. Perhaps because lack of understanding isn't the problem.

I had a Tzeentch/Nurgle daemon army, played it when the new edition was out and it was cheesey as hell. I admit it, it doesn't kill me to do so. Flamers were abolutely OTT. Yep, no argument there. Doesn't seem difficult to admit and yet for DE players on warseer...

Perhaps DE who are up there with daemons and VC are afraid of being tarred with the same cheese brush and desperate to avoid it.

Don Zeko
23-06-2010, 03:09
Doesn't seem difficult to admit and yet for DE players on warseer...

Perhaps DE who are up there with daemons and VC are afraid of being tarred with the same cheese brush and desperate to avoid it.

Can we paint with a slightly narrower brush here? I've played DE since 5th edition, they're still my primary army, and I'll happily admit that the Ring and the Pendant, but mostly the ring, are broken; in fact, I've been arguing to that effect on this very thread.

Kerill
23-06-2010, 03:13
>>>>>Adjusts brush.<<<<

Sorry about that Don Zeko.

doffs cap

ooglatjama
23-06-2010, 03:15
I always just sniped out the ring bearer

spartan41
23-06-2010, 03:25
"I had a Tzeentch/Nurgle daemon army, played it when the new edition was out and it was cheesey as hell. I admit it, it doesn't kill me to do so. Flamers were abolutely OTT. Yep, no argument there. Doesn't seem difficult to admit and yet for DE players on warseer...


Perhaps DE who are up there with daemons and VC are afraid of being tarred with the same cheese brush and desperate to avoid it."



U mad?

Kerill
23-06-2010, 03:29
"I had a Tzeentch/Nurgle daemon army, played it when the new edition was out and it was cheesey as hell. I admit it, it doesn't kill me to do so. Flamers were abolutely OTT. Yep, no argument there. Doesn't seem difficult to admit and yet for DE players on warseer...


Perhaps DE who are up there with daemons and VC are afraid of being tarred with the same cheese brush and desperate to avoid it."



U mad?

Nope, you a dark elf player by any chance?

Daemons then DE/VC in 7th seems fairly accepted.

Don Zeko
23-06-2010, 03:53
I always just sniped out the ring bearer

Doable for players with hochland long rifles or several casters with Metal or Nurgle magic. Difficult for the rest of us.

Vaari
23-06-2010, 04:47
I always just sniped out the ring bearer

Exactly. And if you can't snipe it, I assume most armies are fielding a character hunter, maybe this could be a use for him (gasp).

And that "broken/top-tier" argument doesn't truck with me. Last tourney I went to (not playing, just watching) was won by 1)O&G 2) Empire 3)Slann. Meaning if you know how to play, you can win. If someone is expecting to win just because they have access to mean combo's, they have another thing coming.

If your defeatist just because your facing DE/VC/etc, that's your problem, WHFB has proved again and again that fortune favours the bold.

Also, concrete pills may help you to harden the ****** up.

Don Zeko
23-06-2010, 05:34
Exactly. And if you can't snipe it, I assume most armies are fielding a character hunter, maybe this could be a use for him (gasp).

And that "broken/top-tier" argument doesn't truck with me. Last tourney I went to (not playing, just watching) was won by 1)O&G 2) Empire 3)Slann. Meaning if you know how to play, you can win. If someone is expecting to win just because they have access to mean combo's, they have another thing coming.

If your defeatist just because your facing DE/VC/etc, that's your problem, WHFB has proved again and again that fortune favours the bold.

Also, concrete pills may help you to harden the ****** up.

Well sure, the Ring does not make it impossible to win even if you are running a magic-heavy army. For example, I took a magic heavy DE list to a tournament a month or so ago and beat a DE player with the ring in the 3rd round to win it. But what does that prove? The fact that Dark Elf armies don't win every game and Orcs don't lose every one doesn't mean that certain parts of the DE book aren't substantially overpowered/undercosted.

deggaroth
23-06-2010, 05:47
Are buffing spells unaffected? Thats one of the reasons the ring needs an FAQ, how does it work with the new rules. That 12" range can cover a large area.

Good point. They are not unaffected, but it is easier to buff units outside the 12" range as a lot of VC players have proven.


Perhaps DE who are up there with daemons and VC are afraid of being tarred with the same cheese brush and desperate to avoid it.

It is also a well known fact that all DE players have irregular bathing habits, pass the time by tripping old people, and begin their weekends by killing kittens. However, this is nothing compared to DOC players who kill puppies AND kittens. -gasps- On a more serious note, might I suggest that we get back on topic, the topic being "Will the ring be overpowered in 8th ed?" and not "Why or why not the ring is overpowered in 7th ed or why all DE players are bad people" ;)

kardar233
23-06-2010, 06:37
It is also a well known fact that all DE players have irregular bathing habits, pass the time by tripping old people, and begin their weekends by killing kittens. However, this is nothing compared to DOC players who kill puppies AND kittens. -gasps- On a more serious note, might I suggest that we get back on topic, the topic being "Will the ring be overpowered in 8th ed?" and not "Why or why not the ring is overpowered in 7th ed or why all DE players are bad people" ;)

The only thing I have to say to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcbazH6aE2g

shelfunit.
23-06-2010, 07:03
Well sure, the Ring does not make it impossible to win even if you are running a magic-heavy army. For example, I took a magic heavy DE list to a tournament a month or so ago and beat a DE player with the ring in the 3rd round to win it. But what does that prove? The fact that Dark Elf armies don't win every game and Orcs don't lose every one doesn't mean that certain parts of the DE book aren't substantially overpowered/undercosted.

Ummmm, DE vs DE isn't really the best example to use in a "Dark Elves don't win every game" argument...

Balerion
23-06-2010, 07:50
<snip>

Last tourney I went to (not playing, just watching) was won by 1)O&G 2) Empire 3)Slann. Meaning if you know how to play, you can win.

<snip>
Or, alternatively, if nobody knows how to play, anybody can win. ;)

cptcosmic
23-06-2010, 07:51
the denial and mental gymnastic of the DE players to convince themself and others is pathetic.

-book of hoeth is the worst argument and comparison ever. 100 pts vs 25. Magic by itself already has the chance to be useless or blow itself up.

let me check, in the HE book there are "similar" items that provide protection from spells. if you want to compare, then compare with the right items:
-one is a banner that makes immune from any magical effects that affects the unit and costs 60 points (needs BSB without magic item protection)
-the other one is an item that costs 100 points that stops casting and only works if you are close (6 inch range :rolleyes:) enough to the enemy caster (needs a lord without magic item protection)

conclusion: the ring of hotek should atleast cost 55 points, thus you need a lord for it.

Eumerin
23-06-2010, 08:07
Why did you bother quoting me if you only quoted a segment of the true argument?

Because the rest of your argument was irrelevant to the point that *I* was making - i.e. that a bait and switch was in play.

Either the size of the bubble on items matters or it doesn't. End of story.

Any further debate trying to say that one bubble matters while the other does not is merely an attempt to obscure that point.

I'm not arguing over points equivalence. I'm not arguing over any other comparisons between the two items. I'm merely pointing out that claiming that the fact that the book has a bigger bubble is irrelevant is a rather blatant attempt to avoid a valid argument. Whether the comparative sizes of the bubbles ultimately trump the other abilities of the two items when evaluating costs is another matter entirely. But you can't merely dismiss it out of hand as you've attempted to do.


And seriously - why all the strongly focused hate for the Ring when there are other items that are even worse? The Ring is tricky, but ultimately avoidable once you figure out where it is (or likely to be based on which units are avoiding your opponent's spellcasters). Cupped Hands is not. But you'd think that the Ring was the only thing in the game that could cause you to take an otherwise avoidable miscast roll based on the comments in this thread. I'd rather deal with the Ring any day of the week, given that I can use its bubble to shield my own units against the opponent that brought it. The Cupped Hands, on the other hand...

Zaki
23-06-2010, 08:21
I dunno i think for me i wouldnt mind if the ring stayed the same. cheap level 2 warlock skitterleaps into almost base to base of an enemy power block unit, then try cast whatever i can at the ring. Rat goes pop along with enemy unit. A nice wee suicide gank that may pay off lol.

HeroFox
23-06-2010, 08:47
I dunno i think for me i wouldnt mind if the ring stayed the same. cheap level 2 warlock skitterleaps into almost base to base of an enemy power block unit, then try cast whatever i can at the ring. Rat goes pop along with enemy unit. A nice wee suicide gank that may pay off lol.

And because Skaven is the only other army in Warhammer? :wtf:

HeroFox
23-06-2010, 08:54
Because the rest of your argument was irrelevant to the point that *I* was making - i.e. that a bait and switch was in play.

Either the size of the bubble on items matters or it doesn't. End of story.

Any further debate trying to say that one bubble matters while the other does not is merely an attempt to obscure that point.

I'm not arguing over points equivalence. I'm not arguing over any other comparisons between the two items. I'm merely pointing out that claiming that the fact that the book has a bigger bubble is irrelevant is a rather blatant attempt to avoid a valid argument. Whether the comparative sizes of the bubbles ultimately trump the other abilities of the two items when evaluating costs is another matter entirely. But you can't merely dismiss it out of hand as you've attempted to do.

And seriously - why all the strongly focused hate for the Ring when there are other items that are even worse? The Ring is tricky, but ultimately avoidable once you figure out where it is (or likely to be based on which units are avoiding your opponent's spellcasters). Cupped Hands is not. But you'd think that the Ring was the only thing in the game that could cause you to take an otherwise avoidable miscast roll based on the comments in this thread. I'd rather deal with the Ring any day of the week, given that I can use its bubble to shield my own units against the opponent that brought it. The Cupped Hands, on the other hand...

Before we go any further, do you even know what the Ring of Hotek does? What about Book of Hoeth?

What is this bubble that you speak of? Book of Hoeth has no such bubble. It's something that augments your Archmage to cast IF spells under specific conditions. It has no range.. what the hell is this bubble? lol. The range of the book is the range of the spell as depicted in the lore of High Magic or the other 8 lores in the book. The ring, on the other hand, is a 24" no cast zone that basically that covers the entirety of his army most of the time.

Even if you're not comparing the Book and the Ring and look at it in the form of a magic defense item and compare it to the rest of the items in all of Warhammer, you'll see a huge difference. Name one other item that is enchanted (NOT Arcane), can be a carried on a unit champion, has a passive 24" bubble of doubles = miscast, is NOT one use only, and is 25 points. When you can remotely come close to such an item, I'll give. Or maybe you just don't know the other armies as well as I do. I can tell because you just compared Cupped Hands of the Old Ones to Ring of Hotek. Do you even know the stats on Cupped Hands? :angel:

Please, in future discussions about what's balanced and not, please don't disregard point cost in a game based on building an army with limited points. It's silly and delusional.


the denial and mental gymnastic of the DE players to convince themself and others is pathetic.

Pretty much. Now I'm stuck in an argument with some dude that quotes my first sentence and ignores everything else. I think it's quite insane :D

Vsurma
23-06-2010, 10:01
A level 4 has plenty of 2 dice spells per turn? Does your group play that a level 4 knows every spell in the game then? Its weird because when I look at lores of magic they tend to range and most of them aren't 2 dice spell. Often you have a default 5+ spell (in 7th) which is a 2 dice spell, but the others often need 3 or more dice to cast.

Lore of fire in 7th for example:
Fireball: 5+ (2 dice spell)
Flaming sword 5+ and generally useless
Burning head 8+- 3dice spell to cast.
Fieery blast- ditto
Conflagration of doom- 4 dice to cast
Wall of fire- 4 dice to cast.

So basically he can cast a fireball safely and flaming sword in the unlikely event its useful.

Then we have a hydra
"you can take it out easily with flaming spells" cry the WAAC dark elf players.

Well no because only fireball can be cast semi-safely near the ring (and even that has 6 times the miscast chance with no ring). And 3.5 S4 hits causes 0.77 wounda to the hydra.

Then we have two hydras
"you need more tactics like we have" cry the crazed WAAC DE players.

You could give DE an autowin item for 5 points in the next book and DE players would still say its not that cheesey- look out how many attacks a bloodthirster gets- that's really cheesey.

And that's the annoying bit to be fair, you have the right to take a WAAC army if your group is like that, but not admitting that certain combos are WAAC is dubious in the extreme. Or it means you really don't get it, which is why threads like these are full of comparisons, statistics and so on trying to explain to DE players where the problem lies. Perhaps because lack of understanding isn't the problem.

I had a Tzeentch/Nurgle daemon army, played it when the new edition was out and it was cheesey as hell. I admit it, it doesn't kill me to do so. Flamers were abolutely OTT. Yep, no argument there. Doesn't seem difficult to admit and yet for DE players on warseer...

Perhaps DE who are up there with daemons and VC are afraid of being tarred with the same cheese brush and desperate to avoid it.

You forgot to add the +4 from the lord to the casting value so yea you can cast a fair few of those spells on 2 dice, though not all, that said, if you did cast 4 spells a turn on 2 dice, for a total of 24 spells during the game, your 1/6 chance of miscasting would have you miscast 4 times! almost every turn. So casting on 2 dice isn't actually safe, its fairly dangerous!

Teclis can probably get away with it due to his "ignore" first miscast, but then you have to protect a T2 mage which isn't too easy, hope the enemy doesn't have harpies and dark riders.

SideshowLucifer
23-06-2010, 12:43
After some reading and thinking, I think I would prefer the Ring to cause spells to fail on doubles. I think that would actualy get me to use the damn thing as magical protection.
As for the Hydra, well look at the new lore of fire.

Flash Felix
23-06-2010, 12:50
About the only pro-Ring argument I haven't seen is "The ring doesn't work on Dwarves, therefore it's weak."

Frankly I'm surprised. None of the other arguments have worked; it's still self evident that the Ring is greatly overpowered. I'd have thought the Dwarf defence might have been trotted out by now, in a desperate last minute bid for legitimacy.

Kerill
23-06-2010, 13:01
You forgot to add the +4 from the lord to the casting value so yea you can cast a fair few of those spells on 2 dice, though not all, that said, if you did cast 4 spells a turn on 2 dice, for a total of 24 spells during the game, your 1/6 chance of miscasting would have you miscast 4 times! almost every turn. So casting on 2 dice isn't actually safe, its fairly dangerous!

Teclis can probably get away with it due to his "ignore" first miscast, but then you have to protect a T2 mage which isn't too easy, hope the enemy doesn't have harpies and dark riders.


I clearly stated that the casting values I gave were for 7th mate, as you could see from the spells listed as well- clearly 7th edition spells. 8th edition spells have much higher casting values so even with +4 to cast when the casting value is 20 you are looking at 5-7 dice.

jesters89
23-06-2010, 14:23
The tendency to try to argue that Dark Elf items are balanced is an interesting one.

I've been playing Dark Elves for around 7 years through what most of you will recall were some very grim times for the Dark Elves. They have grown in power exponentially since then and I must admit, its nice to be rewarded for sticking with the team.

When it comes to the ring, the reverse ward, the hydra, etc., there is a part of me that wants to point out the flaws or argue that these things are okay because of xy or z. There is a second side of the coin... the more logical side. This logical side says are you joking? Of course these things are tremendously powerful.

I think the fact of the matter is, no one wants to feel like they've won because their stats outclass their opponents stats... they want to win because of list building and generalship. This was the sole reason I sold the Vampire Counts. I picked them up as soon as they were released, played 2 or 3 games, and realized how miserable it was to play against them.

In 7th I did not so much mind the ring so much. I hated the magic phase and the Ring allowed me to bring a single caster as viable magic defense so I could focus on the phases I enjoyed. In the new edition I don't know how I feel about the magic phase yet. Perhaps they will tone the ring down... then again, magic appears to have grown more deadly in several respects.

We'll just have to wait until July 10th to see.

Sinsigel
23-06-2010, 14:28
One question.

Suppose Teclis or HE archmage with book of hoeth scored a double(except double 1s). The ring of hotek in 7th ed would lead this to miscast AND failure of the spell. Does this(i.e. failure of spell) still work in the 8th ed? I'm wondering because the 8th ed miscast doesn't seem to nullify irresistible force, at least from what I've heard.

Paraelix
23-06-2010, 15:11
or else it's going to be pretty gamebreaking :D


25pt item killed about 700 pts of my army tonight. Slann suffered 3 miscasts.

Killed 10 Temple Guard the first time. Wounded himself and lost pwoer dice the second. And third time he flew into the warp, taking 5 Temple Guard, a Cold One Knight, and a wound off a Dark Elf Master with him...

Foxbat
23-06-2010, 15:46
One question.

Suppose Teclis or HE archmage with book of hoeth scored a double(except double 1s). The ring of hotek in 7th ed would lead this to miscast AND failure of the spell. Does this(i.e. failure of spell) still work in the 8th ed? I'm wondering because the 8th ed miscast doesn't seem to nullify irresistible force, at least from what I've heard. While we will likely have to wait until the FAQs come out for the final answer, I expect that the BoH and Teclis will cast spells with total power when the summation of the dice is over the spell’s casting value and includes a double other than double 6s (apparently with double 6’s you don’t need to beat the casting value).

As for the Ring of Hotek, PROVIDED that it remains in the game (if it does its cost may be going way, way, up) I would think that the ring will cause a Loss of Control effect (i.e. a table roll) on casting attempt successful or not where the power dice rolled included a double other than double 6s (for double 6’s it's automatic). However, the Loss of Control effect would likely not be resolved until after the effects of spell being cast have been resolved. So, the flow would be something like cast, resolve cast spell effect, apply spell effect (as required), resolve RoH/Loss of Control, and finally apply Loss of Control effect.

WarmbloodedLizard
23-06-2010, 18:53
The Cupped Hands, on the other hand...

are you really implying that cupped hands is anywhere near the powerlevel of RoH?

45pts, arcane, one use, needs line of sight, works on 2+, affects one/two wizard
vs.
25pts, enchanted, always works, affects all wizards


RoH is clearly better than Cupped Hands AND you have to pay a lot more for Cupped hands.
you pay:
-45 points of army composition (doesn't hurt that much)
-45 points of the item allowance of a lord (hurts)
-arcane slot on a caster lord (hurts)

RoH:
-25 points (doesn't hurt at all)
-slot on a champion (doesn't hurt at all)

you basically pay nothing for a huge effect that your opponent can't do anything about, while Cupped hands has pretty strong effect for a pretty high cost, that can be avoided rather easily (slightly harder in 8th)

the same is true for Book of Hoeth. you get a huge effect for a huge cost.

Don Zeko
23-06-2010, 19:15
-45 points of the item allowance of a lord (hurts)
-arcane slot on a caster lord (hurts)

Your overall point is valid, but there are a couple of nits that need picking here. Slann get their casting power from disciplines, not from magic items. With the exception of Cupped Hands, the arcane item selection for Lizardmen is pretty weak. So a Slann isn't particularly limited by cupped hands so much as how many points you want to pay for the Slann. After all, a Slann with one discipline (let's say focused rumination) is a powerful level 4 mage with a ward save and 5 wounds for 275 points, while a maxed out slann with four disciplines, magic items and so forth can clock in as high as 600.

a18no
23-06-2010, 19:40
let me check, in the HE book there are "similar" items that provide protection from spells. if you want to compare, then compare with the right items:
-one is a banner that makes immune from any magical effects that affects the unit and costs 60 points (needs BSB without magic item protection)
-the other one is an item that costs 100 points that stops casting and only works if you are close (6 inch range :rolleyes:) enough to the enemy caster (needs a lord without magic item protection)

conclusion: the ring of hotek should atleast cost 55 points, thus you need a lord for it.

I like it, continue with that, you're forgeting the last argument:

- The item that cost 100pts negate all spells, all banner, all items and all runes, so effective against ANY ARMY out there.

So let say that with this, the ring of hotek shoudl cost 55pts like you said, your forgeting HOW MANY ARMY IT DOES NEGATES, we can remove: dwarf, vampire (in 90% of the case), empire (many wizards ot there??), bretonnia, 75% of the deamon (only tzeentch), ogres, tomb king, wood elf, and my own army!. So near 8 of the 15 army or possibility.

I can nullify 7 out of 15 army (don't adding different build in them, to much trouble) 7 out of 15 is 47% of 55pts : TA DAHHHH: 25pts

thanks for the help dude!

But seriously:

people that are against the ring just don't understand 3 points
1- The ring force the dark elf player to play a way that is not optimal for dark elf: low magic (we have a good on you know), and all in the same bubble, cause you're all saying that dark elf player are doing that (we have good movement and can flank and rear charge.. but hard when keeping everyone in the bubble)
2- The ring is not usefull anytime, i can't influence my opponent to let it be stronger.
3- In the 8th edition, the wearer will be dead fast (stepping up guys!!!)

Dark elf player
1- The strongest part in 7th is THE FAILLING not the miscast. But in 8th, IT IS the miscast, no more failling. Maybe stronger than before, but no more a magic defense item
2- We are still one of the strongest army out dear EVEN with low or no magic at all. Even when doing a low movement army. I know that we are one of the more versatile army out there!

grumbaki
23-06-2010, 19:47
I like it, continue with that, you're forgeting the last argument:

- The item that cost 100pts negate all spells, all banner, all items and all runes, so effective against ANY ARMY out there.

So let say that with this, the ring of hotek shoudl cost 55pts like you said, your forgeting HOW MANY ARMY IT DOES NEGATES, we can remove: dwarf, vampire (in 90% of the case), empire (many wizards ot there??), bretonnia, 75% of the deamon (only tzeentch), ogres, tomb king, wood elf, and my own army!. So near 8 of the 15 army or possibility.

I can nullify 7 out of 15 army (don't adding different build in them, to much trouble) 7 out of 15 is 47% of 55pts : TA DAHHHH: 25pts

thanks for the help dude!



Let's be honest though. If a lvl 4 mage is within 6'' of any dwarf with an axe, he is doing something wrong.

And for your argument. Even if your 25 point ring "only" nullifies the magic phase of 7 armies (which I call BS on), why does that justify it being 25 points? I'd love it if my dwarfs had a 25 point item that I could give to a unit champion that would nullify the shooting phases of "only" high elves, dark elves and wood elves. And it would be fair, right? Because this 25 point item "only" destroys a phase for 3 armies!

3 out of 15...that is 20%. 20% of 55...wait, that is 11 points. So my dwarfs deserve a ring which says that any model in any elf army which shoots at any target within 12'' of the ring will hit itself if it doesn't roll to hit. And you can always decide not to shoot at something within that bubble (even though I'll probably just castle). Sure, it works against my guys too, so it must be fair! Oh wait, I can just use those points on other things that can kill you. It doesn't matter that your crossbowmen, dark riders, repeater bolt throwers and shades are all now worthless. Sure, you spent a good 800 points on all of them, but the 11 point item is appropriate by your logic.

So, using your logic, if my dwarfs had this 11 point item, you would be fine with it even though your dark elves get shafted because against all non-elves it is wasted points?

Skyros
23-06-2010, 19:52
One question.

Suppose Teclis or HE archmage with book of hoeth scored a double(except double 1s). The ring of hotek in 7th ed would lead this to miscast AND failure of the spell. Does this(i.e. failure of spell) still work in the 8th ed? I'm wondering because the 8th ed miscast doesn't seem to nullify irresistible force, at least from what I've heard.

Correct. There is no 'miscast on double 1's means spell auto fails' in 8e. If you get IF then you also get miscast. There's a specific mention of items that cause miscast - you resolve the miscast after the spell resolves.

a18no
23-06-2010, 19:56
Let's be honest though. If a lvl 4 mage is within 6'' of any dwarf with an axe, he is doing something wrong.

The item is not mage only though




And you can always decide not to shoot at something within that bubble (even though I'll probably just castle).

Read again my post, Dark elf that castle is bad for them, dwarf that castle is good for them... making the item even stronger in dwarf army. IT GOES IN YOUR STRATEGY, not destroying it. Imagine the same item but remove ALL YOUR SHOOTING IN THE SAME BUBBLE... Will you play it for 25pts??

Fixing a point cost for an item is the hardest part of the creation. you must include:

- Capacity of the item/type of capacity
- Pro and con for the player AND his opponent
- Who will be wearing it (champion, hero, lord, mage, etc.)
- Which combo can you do with it
- etc...

And all of this can be differently view.
An item that affect one phase out of 4, half of the opponent, have a limiting range (24"... but only 12" in the front, where you should be by the way, the other 12" is back and flank, where I AM), can be as bad for the wearer as for the opponent, is AGAINST the common strategy of the wearer's army (forcing to play in a fixe way) and the wearer has no control over it (you are still the one that throw the dices!!)... I can't see that item to be a lord/hero only item... but it is MY view of it, no mather what's the effect of it...

Is the ring to cheap?? maybe
Can it be viable if more than 25pts?? i'm sure not

Skyros
23-06-2010, 20:06
So let say that with this, the ring of hotek shoudl cost 55pts like you said, your forgeting HOW MANY ARMY IT DOES NEGATES, we can remove: dwarf, vampire (in 90% of the case), empire (many wizards ot there??), bretonnia, 75% of the deamon (only tzeentch), ogres, tomb king, wood elf, and my own army!. So near 8 of the 15 army or possibility.

Your list is hilariously flawed.

Vampires heavily use magic. So do Tomb Kings. Maybe 1 in 10 demon lists I see has no magic. Empire has tons of magic: not only do they know all 8 lores but they have warrior priests and archlector - the current most popular lord for them.

So actually the armies who don't typically have large investments in magic offense are:

dwarves, brettonia, ogres, wood elves.

The fact remains, arguing that the ring of hotek is appropriately costed is laughably absurd. I'd take a slightly weaker/slightly more expensive version of the ring in every army I play in a heartbeat if given the opportunity.

kaintxu
23-06-2010, 20:08
Because the rest of your argument was irrelevant to the point that *I* was making - i.e. that a bait and switch was in play.

Either the size of the bubble on items matters or it doesn't. End of story.

Any further debate trying to say that one bubble matters while the other does not is merely an attempt to obscure that point.

I'm not arguing over points equivalence. I'm not arguing over any other comparisons between the two items. I'm merely pointing out that claiming that the fact that the book has a bigger bubble is irrelevant is a rather blatant attempt to avoid a valid argument. Whether the comparative sizes of the bubbles ultimately trump the other abilities of the two items when evaluating costs is another matter entirely. But you can't merely dismiss it out of hand as you've attempted to do.


And seriously - why all the strongly focused hate for the Ring when there are other items that are even worse? The Ring is tricky, but ultimately avoidable once you figure out where it is (or likely to be based on which units are avoiding your opponent's spellcasters). Cupped Hands is not. But you'd think that the Ring was the only thing in the game that could cause you to take an otherwise avoidable miscast roll based on the comments in this thread. I'd rather deal with the Ring any day of the week, given that I can use its bubble to shield my own units against the opponent that brought it. The Cupped Hands, on the other hand...

As someone else said:
-Cupper hands are 45 points not 25
-Cupper hands only work 1 time vs. RoH working the whole game
-Cupper hands can fail on a roll of 1 vs. RoH not failling
-Cupper hands are Arcane item, so on 8th no scroos no PS no anything else arcane. Vs. RoH enchanted
-Cupper hands need a condition to work, you have to get a mistcast, if you dont get one in the whole game, there is no use for them,

So dude dont compare both items, Cupper hands are going to be a good item, but you pay for it in many ways


are you really implying that cupped hands is anywhere near the powerlevel of RoH?

45pts, arcane, one use, needs line of sight, works on 2+, affects one/two wizard
vs.
25pts, enchanted, always works, affects all wizards


RoH is clearly better than Cupped Hands AND you have to pay a lot more for Cupped hands.
you pay:
-45 points of army composition (doesn't hurt that much)
-45 points of the item allowance of a lord (hurts)
-arcane slot on a caster lord (hurts)

RoH:
-25 points (doesn't hurt at all)
-slot on a champion (doesn't hurt at all)

you basically pay nothing for a huge effect that your opponent can't do anything about, while Cupped hands has pretty strong effect for a pretty high cost, that can be avoided rather easily (slightly harder in 8th)

the same is true for Book of Hoeth. you get a huge effect for a huge cost.

Totally agree


I like it, continue with that, you're forgeting the last argument:

- The item that cost 100pts negate all spells, all banner, all items and all runes, so effective against ANY ARMY out there.

So let say that with this, the ring of hotek shoudl cost 55pts like you said, your forgeting HOW MANY ARMY IT DOES NEGATES, we can remove: dwarf, vampire (in 90% of the case), empire (many wizards ot there??), bretonnia, 75% of the deamon (only tzeentch), ogres, tomb king, wood elf, and my own army!. So near 8 of the 15 army or possibility.

Wow seriously i can see it not negating Dwarf cuz they have no magic but:
- VC? on 8th there is not going to be so much 1 die spell so no reason.
- Empire? it does not affect WP but it does wizzards so BS.
- Bretonnia? if they take sorceres just as everyone else.
- Daemons? it affect all 3 lores.
- Wood elves? ok mayvbe if they only roll 1 dice to move forest which is crap because you will fail 50% of those casts and will be easy to dispell, you want to cast on 2 dice almost allways, no fails, harders to dispell.



people that are against the ring just don't understand 3 points
1- The ring force the dark elf player to play a way that is not optimal for dark elf: low magic (we have a good on you know), and all in the same bubble, cause you're all saying that dark elf player are doing that (we have good movement and can flank and rear charge.. but hard when keeping everyone in the bubble)
2- The ring is not usefull anytime, i can't influence my opponent to let it be stronger.
3- In the 8th edition, the wearer will be dead fast (stepping up guys!!!)


Dude you can have your sorcerer behind a builing or forest of hill, out of the bubble and use the damm decoy to cast so your not on line of sight of anything.

True is not usefull anytime, but its only 25 points so?

a18no
23-06-2010, 20:16
As someone else said:
-Cupper hands are 45 points not 25
-Cupper hands only work 1 time vs. RoH working the whole game
-Cupper hands can fail on a roll of 1 vs. RoH not failling
-Cupper hands are Arcane item, so on 8th no scroos no PS no anything else arcane. Vs. RoH enchanted
-Cupper hands need a condition to work, you have to get a mistcast, if you dont get one in the whole game, there is no use for them,

So dude dont compare both items, Cupper hands are going to be a good item, but you pay for it in many ways



1: 45 on a guy that can choose is best magic item (plaque) out of the 100pts limit...
2: imagine if it wasn't...
3: 1 out of 6 chance to not work in a 24" bubble IN FRONT of you
4: Arcane item on a guy that can choose is best magic item (plaque) out of the 100pts limit... :p
5: A condition on which YOU HAVE THE CONTROL..

Geez guy, are you reading me or just want to be against the item??? No one can't see my point and say: yes you're right BUT.... (and really thinking it)



Dude you can have your sorcerer behind a builing or forest of hill, out of the bubble and use the damm decoy to cast so your not on line of sight of anything.


The point of : "you can place your sorceress out of the bubble" is so stupid... I can do it, but not you??? So the ring is overpowered?? Man

Kerill
23-06-2010, 20:23
I like it, continue with that, you're forgeting the last argument:

- The item that cost 100pts negate all spells, all banner, all items and all runes, so effective against ANY ARMY out there.

Does it have a 24" bubble of protection? The issue of the ring is that it protects every important unit in the army.

So let say that with this, the ring of hotek shoudl cost 55pts like you said, your forgeting HOW MANY ARMY IT DOES NEGATES, we can remove: dwarf, vampire (in 90% of the case), empire (many wizards ot there??), bretonnia, 75% of the deamon (only tzeentch), ogres, tomb king, wood elf, and my own army!. So near 8 of the 15 army or possibility.

Remove vampires? You are joking. There are other spells apart from invocation that get used, especially mid and late game when vanhels danse is the gamewinning spell. 7+ to cast. Not to mention if the vampire lord dies its game over for the undead. Bretonnia? Most lists have a couple of low level damsels and your 25 points item can still easily make its points back. Daemons- Nurgle, Tzeentch and Slaanesh all use magic mate, only pure Khorne will have none. Ogres- less effect here unless they want to cast the same spell twice which does happen btw. Ring will make them unlikely to try, so probably worth the 25 points, especially considering the gut magic table. Wood elves, no magic? You sure?

Incidenbtally in 8th vampire lords will be doing a lot less one die spam since if they roll 1 or 2 they can't cast again that turn. With a hero caster not a big issue but will make the ring stronger against them, especially with fewer power dice to spam.

I can nullify 7 out of 15 army (don't adding different build in them, to much trouble) 7 out of 15 is 47% of 55pts : TA DAHHHH: 25pts

No, you can nullify all but 2 armies. DE only take no magic because it saves them so many points to just buy the ring. In 7th a decent magic defence runs typically 350-400 points. By going no magic DE players are basically giving themselves a boost of 300-400 points in a tournament setting by only needing to spend 25 points for what amounts to a much more powerful magical defence than a couple of caddies. And with a DE caddy they can shut down a 900 point magic phase with EASE.

thanks for the help dude!

But seriously:

people that are against the ring just don't understand 3 points
1- The ring force the dark elf player to play a way that is not optimal for dark elf: low magic (we have a good on you know), and all in the same bubble, cause you're all saying that dark elf player are doing that (we have good movement and can flank and rear charge.. but hard when keeping everyone in the bubble)
This old chestnut. The ring has 12" range, you can EASILY put a caster in a unit which is 12" of the ring while the caster is 13"-16" away meaning you get to cast spells whilst being protected from magic. Late gam manouvering might make it a bit more awkward but then the mage can move elsewhere (or join a bolt thrower). The reason DE player don't do this is because in 7th a decent magic phase takes more than a single caster to be effective. As a result it is far more effective to just nerf your opponents magic and get more troops. In short the ring allows you to min/max. Nomally boosting one phase will come at the expense of another. DE can boost combat and shooting without getting substantially weaker to magic.
2- The ring is not usefull anytime, i can't influence my opponent to let it be stronger.
Not sure what you mean here. If your opponent is not miscasting because they are throwing small spells or fewer dice at spells then it has already paid for itself since they are choosing to handicap themselves.
3- In the 8th edition, the wearer will be dead fast (stepping up guys!!!)
In 8th edition the wearer will probably not be the unit champion of the blackguard anymore. Might be a cold one champ (2+save) or on a hero/lord with a 1+ save and maybe a ward.
Hmm Master, heavy armour, ring, sea dragon cloak, enchanted shield- 2+ save? 20 points left for other items- maybe potion of strength or stone of luck? Easily gets 1+ save if he is on a cold one- ring, HA, sea dragon cloak, dawnstone (pond stone now?)- 1+ re-rollable save. On a lord, they could have the regen armour instead of inverse ward (leaving inverse ward for bsb, arguable mor eimportant model in 8th).

Or maybe it will still be a unit champion since by the time things are in combat a lot of spells can no longer be targetted. Can't be sure yet.

Dark elf player
1- The strongest part in 7th is THE FAILLING not the miscast. But in 8th, IT IS the miscast, no more failling. Maybe stronger than before, but no more a magic defense item
This is the part I've alluded to several times and perhaps DE players don't realise because they aren't on the other side of the field. The strongest effect of the ring is that it forces the opponent to hobble themselves. They can't go for the better spells and mid level spells will fail to cast more. This is before the ring even comes into effect in real terms.
The ring hasn't been FAQ'd for 8th yet, but even assuming you are right and spells will still go through, with the new miscast table very few spells can justify the effects of a miscast when that S10 5" template descends on your opponents unit. Its a free 3"/5" S10 Arnizipals black horror for you, few spells they can cast can meet that level of power.
2- We are still one of the strongest army out dear EVEN with low or no magic at all. Even when doing a low movement army. I know that we are one of the more versatile army out there!

No, in 7th edition DE are one of the strongest armies PARTLY BECAUSE you can go low magic with little effect. Low movement? Elves have m5, and there are few lists without dark riders, harpies, hydra or shades. Look at tournament lists for DE. I could be wrong but the vast majority go for the ring min/max option. And why not its the best use of points for a tourney.

Edit: just saw this:

"The point of : "you can place your sorceress out of the bubble" is so stupid... I can do it, but not you??? So the ring is overpowered?? Man "

Our TARGETS are inside the bubble mate. Your targets are on OUR side of the field. ABSOLUTELY NOT THE SAME. I can put a slann in the back corner on a 50 foot wide warhammer table casting heavens and he will still have to worry about miscasting because of the ring because the TARGETS are in the rings safety bubble.

Skyros
23-06-2010, 20:30
1: 45 on a guy that can choose is best magic item (plaque) out of the 100pts limit...
2: imagine if it wasn't...
3: 1 out of 6 chance to not work in a 24" bubble IN FRONT of you
4: Arcane item on a guy that can choose is best magic item (plaque) out of the 100pts limit... :p
5: A condition on which YOU HAVE THE CONTROL..

Geez guy, are you reading me or just want to be against the item??? No one can't see my point and say: yes you're right BUT.... (and really thinking it)

On the contrary. I see kaint's point quite clearly: the ring of hotek is cheaper, repeated uses, and cannot fail. Those are quite clearly significant advantages compared to cupped hands.

Your responses however, seem to be pretty clearly lacking in persuasive force. All you're saying is that it's ok for cupped hands to be more expensive because that doesn't take all of a slann's magic items allowance.

Ok, fine, let's make the ring of hotek 45 points. Or even 55 points. It's still going to be ok because it's not going to take all of a dark elf lord's entire magic item allowance.




The point of : "you can place your sorceress out of the bubble" is so stupid... I can do it, but not you??? So the ring is overpowered??

It makes perfect sense, if you settle down and think for a moment.

You are using the ring to protect something. You put the things you want to protect inside the rings bubble. The enemy army will not be inside the rings bubble. So you can have a caster using the focus familiar standing out of sight inside a forest off to one side, happily casting away the enemy and NOT being affected by the ring while the bulk of your army (or at least the expensive killy bits) are happily sheltering inside the rings bubble immune to magic (essentially).

Surely you don't need a diagram to illustrate this?

grumbaki
23-06-2010, 20:31
The item is not mage only though Ok, not mage only. But with no real save of any kind, he isn't going to last, and for 100 pts I'd expect a 6'' bubble to be nasty, just as I would expect a 100 pt sword to be killy.


Read again my post, Dark elf that castle is bad for them, dwarf that castle is good for them... making the item even stronger in dwarf army.

Dark elves don't castle, but they can easily move forward with everything of importance protected. I've seen it many, many times before.



IT GOES IN YOUR STRATEGY, not destroying it. Imagine the same item but remove ALL YOUR SHOOTING IN THE SAME BUBBLE... Will you play it for 25pts??

You can bet I would! Just like how DE players take the ring. Let’s take a look at this magic item.

Ring of Grimnir

All shooting from, or at, any target within 12’’ of the ring will hit the shooter if a 6 is rolled to hit. All shooting that hits automatically will hit the shooter on the roll of a 4+ for each hit caused.

Ok, so I take a solid line of dwarfs and an anvil of doom. On my far flanks I put down my thunderers, quarrelers and/or organ guns (safely out of the 12’’ bubble). Their role is to stop cavalry from hitting my flanks. Then my large units of dwarfs march forward completely secure that nobody will shoot at them. Perhaps I might mess up once or twice and on turn 1 shoot within the bubble (as I’ve seen dark elf players do with their mages), but after that they are fine.

So, looking at the rules for the RoG compared to the RoH. For the RoH, if the enemy rolls to low, their spell does not cast. If an enemy rolls to low to hit with the RoG, they just miss. If an enemy rolls any doubles (20% chance on 2 dice) they miscast. If the enemy rolls a 6 they hit themselves instead with the RoG (not too bad if you need 3+, but if you need a 4+ then you are hitting yourself 1/3 of the time, and if you need a 5+ then you hit yourself ½ the time!). Both items completely neuter the shooting phases of many armies. But of course, some armies are fine. VC, WoC, BoC, OK, DoC, and other armies like Bretonnians, Skaven aren’t hurt too bad. So it only really ruins the game of 7 out of 8 armies. If you play High Elves, Wood Elves, Dark Elves, Tomb Kings, Empire or Dwarfs then you are seriously screwed, as your entire shooting phase is ruined. Those big blocks of dwarfs can’t be touched by shooting without fear of losing your own models and getting far fewer hits.

Do you see the problem with this? You can’t just say “oh, well it only hurts a few armies”, or “it might hurt me too”, because it is seriously overpowered


Fixing a point cost for an item is the hardest part of the creation. you must include:

- Capacity of the item/type of capacity
- Pro and con for the player AND his opponent
- Who will be wearing it (champion, hero, lord, mage, etc.)
- Which combo can you do with it
- etc...

And all of this can be differently view.
An item that affect one phase out of 4, half of the opponent, have a limiting range (24"... but only 12" in the front, where you should be by the way, the other 12" is back and flank, where I AM), can be as bad for the wearer as for the opponent, is AGAINST the common strategy of the wearer's army (forcing to play in a fixe way) and the wearer has no control over it (you are still the one that throw the dices!!)... I can't see that item to be a lord/hero only item... but it is MY view of it, no mather what's the effect of it...

So taking into account, that as you just said, there is a no cast zone of 24'' for every spell, thus shutting down 1 out of 4 phases, is not too powerful? I mean, come on! At least as the DE player you can design your list to take the ring into account. The enemy can't! If the enemy shows up with 4 mages, he lost before the game started because his 600-800 points is now almost worthless, while you got to spend those points on killy heroes. It isn't like the DE player will ever show up with 4 mages and the ring, because he knows he has it and he knows where it is.


Is the ring to cheap?? maybe

Talk to anyone who uses magic and isn't a dark elf player. The answer is YES.


Can it be viable if more than 25pts?? i'm sure not

So you are telling me that the 1 use Storm Banner is not viable? You are telling me that for 35-50 points you wouldn't put it on a hero to keep your army safe? Most other armies would *kill* for that kind of protection for everything important in their army. If any other army in the game made a deathstar unit (blackguard or shades) they would pee their pants if the enemy was able to cast Gateway or the Skaven's 13th spell. Not dark elves. They are immune to both, as is everything with 24''. The foe can't even buff their own units within the bubble without fear of blowing up!

a18no
23-06-2010, 20:38
Ok, fine, let's make the ring of hotek 45 points. Or even 55 points. It's still going to be ok because it's not going to take all of a dark elf lord's entire magic item allowance.

Don't stop there: 55pts of 100 is still 55% of the item allowance. The slann can take 4 plates (150 pts and 1 free), and 100pts of item PLUS a magic banner, 45 pts is less than 20% of all is points allowance.

About the sorceress with the familiar: i have 1 magic combo that can be played with the ring.... WOW so overpowered. I understand to i can still cast and use the ring. But I still have to play the way the ring is asking.

And you?? You can't continue to cast just because of that??

@grumbalk
No, i would no pay 100% pts allowance of a hero to bring it. I'm gonna bring my mage and kill with magic, a hero that need to be on foot in a unit to be protected... Exactly why i argue against you guy.

@Kerrill

I've played at many time: wood elf, lizard, vampire, empire, bretonnia, orcs and gob. I now have an ogre army to test.

Against many of them, i can say that the ring wasn't a big problem
Wood elf: target wood, not unit, just need to keep the mage out of range, as harder for the wood elf player as for dark elf PLEASE ASSUME THAT GUYS.
Empire: used mage only for fun, never used a lvl4 mage. So was casting on 2 dices, easely out of range of the ring. Priest?? So funny.
Vampire: nehek, no problem. Important and big late game spells? And the ring is still there... never! Let my vampire lord cast on more than 1 or even 2 dice near the ring?? NEVER. I GOT THE CHOICE, dark elf can't have the choice.
Bretonnia: buff spells, managed to used the item that boost ward save after a wound cause by the ring.
Deamon: nurgle were always casting with lvl 1 mage, so 1 or 2 dices... not a problem.
With the slann and cupped hand, i've still managed to kill my opponent mage with the ring...

Not the 8th army?? Did you read that i wasn't talking about specific situations??
- Wood elf with only a lvl 1 with PAM exist in many games
- Empire in the same situation, etc, etc, etc, etc.

Yes you can say that SOME of the build in my 8 army can be nullify, but many don't care.

Finally, we are ALL saying the same thing: the ring is more a pain in the a***ss, than a great defensive magic item.

What we don't agree on, is the VALUE of this. I have to play the way the ring want, YOU have the play the way the ring want.... what's the value of this??

grumbaki
23-06-2010, 20:47
I've played at many time: wood elf, lizard, vampire, empire, bretonnia, orcs and gob. I now have an ogre army to test.

Against many of them, i can say that the ring wasn't a big problem

Wood elf: target wood, not unit, just need to keep the mage out of range, as harder for the wood elf player as for dark elf PLEASE ASSUME THAT GUYS.

Great, so you play wood elves. They don't have a good magic phase and few people go magic heavy. You treesing where the ring isn't. But doesn't it suck that for 25 points you can't treesing in a 24'' bubble? That seems like a big drawback for a mere 25point.


Empire: used mage only for fun, never used a lvl4 mage. So was casting on 2 dices, easely out of range of the ring. Priest?? So funny.

So you personally only take 1 mage for fun, that makes it balanced? I play Empire too, and I hated it when I brought a lvl 4 to the table and saw that I couldn't do anything with him. Try it out, bring a lvl 4 mage to a game and a lvl 2 mage to back him up and tell your opponent to use the ring of hotek. Then come back and tell us what you think.


Vampire: nehek, no problem. Important and big late game spells? And the ring is still there... never! Let my vampire lord cast on more than 1 or even 2 dice near the ring?? NEVER. I GOT THE CHOICE, dark elf can't have the choice.

We all know that Vampires can spam invocation. The ring against vampires is laughable because they can just raise all they want. It is the only time when having it isn't a good thing.


Bretonnia: buff spells, managed to used the item that boost ward save after a wound cause by the ring.

Like wood elves, Bretonnians arn't known for their magic. Again, try spending 800 points on magic and use it against the ring, then come back.


Deamon: nurgle were always casting with lvl 1 mage, so 1 or 2 dices... not a problem.

Once again, you only used lvl 1 mages. I see a pattern here on why *you* don't see a problem.


With the slann and cupped hand, i've still managed to kill my opponent mage with the ring...

And that makes the ring less underpointed how?


Not the 8th army?? Did you read that i wasn't talking about specific situations??
- Wood elf with only a lvl 1 with PAM exist in many games
- Empire in the same situation, etc, etc, etc, etc.

Yes you can say that SOME of the build in my 8 army can be nullify, but many don't care.

And for 25 points, nullifying entire builds is wrong!


Finally, we are ALL saying the same thing: the ring is more a pain in the a***ss, than a great defensive magic item.

We have been saying that the ring is more than a pain in the ass, it ruins entire builds for 25 points. That is the *perfect* defensive magic item.


What we don't agree on, is the VALUE of this. I have to play the way the ring want, YOU have the play the way the ring want.... what's the value of this??

Way more than 25 points, and even 55 points wouldn't be out of the question (so your lord can still get a 1+ AS and regeneration).

a18no
23-06-2010, 21:02
You are saying the same thing as me.. but changing side:


Once again, you only used lvl 1 mages. I see a pattern here on why *you* don't see a problem."

So you personally only take 1 mage for fun, that makes it balanced? I play Empire too, and I hated it when I brought a lvl 4 to the table and saw that I couldn't do anything with him. Try it out, bring a lvl 4 mage to a game and a lvl 2 mage to back him up and tell your opponent to use the ring of hotek. Then come back and tell us what you think.

Like wood elves, Bretonnians arn't known for their magic. Again, try spending 800 points on magic and use it against the ring, then come back.

You are using many mage?? Not everyone. The ring is always strong against a wood elf army/empire/vampire? NO. I see a pattern here on why *you* don't see a problem


Great, so you play wood elves. They don't have a good magic phase and few people go magic heavy. You treesing where the ring isn't. But doesn't it suck that for 25 points you can't treesing in a 24'' bubble? That seems like a big drawback for a mere 25point.

I can't tressing at a distance OF 12" of the ring. I don't care of the 12" being the wielder.


And for 25 points, nullifying entire builds is wrong!
You're asuming 2 things when saying that: You don't keep a "restreint" control on it, and you're always playing with full mage


Way more than 25 points, and even 55 points wouldn't be out of the question (so your lord can still get a 1+ AS and regeneration).

Paying 250pts for the ring is right... but having to pay a BSB for nullifying a banner is not... like a friend of you proposed before... :shifty::shifty::shifty:

All of that to say this:

I play other army too, i've faced the ring before. It IS strong, but why can I react to it, and not you guys???
I can't break deamon/vampire/tomb king.. are they overpowered cause my army is build to break other on the charge?? No i adapt.
I play a shooting dwarf army, against wood elf in a map with many forest.. on no wood elf are overpowered.... No i adapt.

It's not the item that is overpowered, it's because you can't play what you want the way you want.
Dark elf army were design to do exactly that
- the pendant is there to remove the common way of killing character: with the strongest attack, ADAPT
- The ring is there to remove the common way of playing magic: with the strongest mage, casting the strongest spells with as many dices as he can against the strongest unit in front of him, ADAPT
- and many other

An item like the hand, the book, and army like the spam dice vampire etc..., i must absorb it, I can't adapt. Must play with it.
A gunline, a deathstars, the ring, the star dragon/full cav and shooting, the pendant, full magic: I can adapt my play to them, not easy, but doable

Skyros
23-06-2010, 21:30
I play other army too, i've faced the ring before. It IS strong, but why can I react to it, and not you guys???

Because you've said you only take one mage 'for fun'. And that generally you fight people who don't have a heavy investment in magic. If this is how you play and the people you play against, of course the ring isn't going to have much of an effect.

But you shouldn't assume everyone plays that way. The ring shuts down offensive magic ridiculously well for a ridiculously low points cost. Saying "well just don't play with offensive magic like we do" is NOT a defense.

HeroFox
23-06-2010, 21:33
a18no defending the Ring of Hotek when every other Dark Elf player has understood the fact its underpriced and imbalanced is truly an amazing sight to behold. I mean the fact that he thinks it's fine that a 25 point item should alters someone's playstyle so they can have a chance is straight up hysterical.

Psychologists classify this as "an alternate reality".

But us gamers can simply say he doesn't play the same game as us :)


With the slann and cupped hand, i've still managed to kill my opponent mage with the ring...

Why is your opponent's mage carrying the Ring? Bad player or made up story.. hmm.


Finally, we are ALL saying the same thing: the ring is more a pain in the a***ss, than a great defensive magic item.

No, we're not saying the same thing. Look at the last few pages and take your time to read what we've been saying. The ring is simply the best magic defense item in the game. It yields the greatest results for its points spent. That, in the game gaming world, be it RTS, FPS, MMO, RTT, Strategy, is called "cost effective".


Read again my post, Dark elf that castle is bad for them, dwarf that castle is good for them... making the item even stronger in dwarf army. IT GOES IN YOUR STRATEGY, not destroying it. Imagine the same item but remove ALL YOUR SHOOTING IN THE SAME BUBBLE... Will you play it for 25pts??

Fixing a point cost for an item is the hardest part of the creation. you must include:

- Capacity of the item/type of capacity
- Pro and con for the player AND his opponent
- Who will be wearing it (champion, hero, lord, mage, etc.)
- Which combo can you do with it
- etc...

And all of this can be differently view.
An item that affect one phase out of 4, half of the opponent, have a limiting range (24"... but only 12" in the front, where you should be by the way, the other 12" is back and flank, where I AM), can be as bad for the wearer as for the opponent, is AGAINST the common strategy of the wearer's army (forcing to play in a fixe way) and the wearer has no control over it (you are still the one that throw the dices!!)... I can't see that item to be a lord/hero only item... but it is MY view of it, no mather what's the effect of it...

Is the ring to cheap?? maybe
Can it be viable if more than 25pts?? i'm sure not

This is what catches me off guard. How can you even begin to talk about the design of an item when you first give an example of a 25 point item that negates shooting completely within 24"? Then you give examples of certain design areas that must be addressed before pricing an item.. Can you even see what you're writing? You except us to take you seriously when you create such ridiculous items that you think is "ok" when you're trying to prove to us that the ring is not overpowered. For the rest of us: It's like reading a serial killers' memoirs and trying to agree with his thought patterns..


1: 45 on a guy that can choose is best magic item (plaque) out of the 100pts limit...
2: imagine if it wasn't...
3: 1 out of 6 chance to not work in a 24" bubble IN FRONT of you
4: Arcane item on a guy that can choose is best magic item (plaque) out of the 100pts limit...
5: A condition on which YOU HAVE THE CONTROL..

This is your take on Cupped Hands. I'm glad you listed 5 conditions. So I take it you do understand that Cupped Hands has variables to activate as opposed to the Ring who has little to none, but yet for 25 points, the Ring is still OK. I am thoroughly confused.


I have to play the way the ring want, YOU have the play the way the ring want.... what's the value of this??

OK Frodo. You go deal with the ring anyway you please.
*head explodes*

madden
23-06-2010, 21:35
I take the ring but no magic in my de in my beasts look to the stone of spite for Mage killing d6 s4 per arcane item carried now only one dispel scroll in the opposition stop that and it is only 25pts range is 18" bubble use kill all wizards.

Jester007
23-06-2010, 21:37
Everyone is comparing RoH to Cupped Hands and all. I'm going to throw in the Shield of Mirrored Pool. 30 points and ONLY works on Magic Missiles that target the character and/or unit he is with on a 2+ (and yes, I have rolled lots of 1s with it). So, for 5 more points you get a item that does something similar with the following exceptions:

-Does not cause Miscasts
-Limited in range
-Only works against certain types of spells
-Not garuanteed

So wait, its no where near what the RoH can do and it costs more? Seems unjustified to me. But let's face it, GW made a horrible decision letting Gav Thorpe write the DE book all by himself.

But as to my opinion on if GW will change RoH, they will not. It bad enough that the Cauldron of Blood is pretty much having a book written about its interaction in 8th. I suspect that GW is going to try and make as few exceptions to the current army books to keep everything simple.

Sincerely,
Jester007

a18no
23-06-2010, 21:49
a18no defending the Ring of Hotek when every other Dark Elf player has understood the fact its underpriced and imbalanced is truly an amazing sight to behold. I mean the fact that he thinks it's fine that a 25 point item should alters someone's playstyle so they can have a chance is straight up hysterical.

Psychologists classify this as "an alternate reality".

But us gamers can simply say he doesn't play the same game as us :)

You are assuming that with no proof at all, but if you start to attack me directly, you'll end the conversation right there. We are having a debate here, with everyone having his own view of the situation. No argument is bad, no opinion is wrong.

I defend the ring cause of one thing: all the point against it are all subjective. It seem that you are against it if you have to face it and never was on the good end of it.

An all around army rule that make everyone unbreakable/ItP/ward everywhere/raise everyone/strike before anyone can be overpowered if not correctly adress. A lone item, in an army book can't be, maybe the problem is the Ring of hotek COMBINE with a no magic army. Have you tried a no magic army with ALL the army book to see if it's not there the problem?? I haven't so can't say.

NO ONE KNOW WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENEND IF THE RING WAS FIXED AT 55pts. NO ONE.

We can argue that if everyone want it at 25pts, it's because the price is right :p

We can see that each army since High elf were at a different level than never before, can the item was their purposly?? (only talking there, not an opinion, ok no flaming) To bring back deamon magic heavy list? If that was the purpose... it's missed. 8th will do it, not the ring.

I correct my own mistake: we can't compared 2 things in 2 different army. Too much variable in this. Hand/book/other banner are at their point cost in their own army. If they were in other, the cost could be different.

HeroFox
23-06-2010, 21:52
But your reasonings contradict each other and your examples make you look insane!

Look at my above post. I edited it. Enjoy please.

Don Zeko
23-06-2010, 21:52
a18no, would it be to much to ask that you be either wrong or illiterate, but not both? I want to respond to your posts, but the general lack of proper spelling, punctuation or grammar is so severe that I genuinely can't understand what you're trying to say about half the time*. That said, let me make a couple of points.

#1: comparing the ring to the Book of Hoeth or Cupped Hands is silly; these items just do fundamentally different things and can't easily be compared. I think a better comparison is to magic resistance. Like the Ring, magic resistance is useless if the enemy has no magic, and like the ring magic resistance does nothing if the enemy casts at other units that aren't protected.

Just to do a rough comparison, MR(2) isn't as good as the protection offered by the ring, but is close enough for the sake of this argument. So tell me, do you think a 25 point talisman that gave every unit, friend or foe, within 12" MR(2) would be overpriced at 25 points? If not, wouldn't such an item be less effective than the Ring of Hotek, which can stop spells cast with IF, can kill the enemy mages, and is increasingly effective as spells become more powerful? If so, why do Dark Elves have a talisman that gives the bearer and nobody else MR(2) for 30 points? Is there anything else in the game that can so thoroughly neutralize several hundred points of units for 25 points?

Of course not. The Ring is the best magic defense in the game, and it can be taken by a unit champion. Nothing in any other army book comes close to doing what it does as well as it does, even for double, triple, or quadruple the points.

*EDIT: Upon re-reading my post, I realized that there's a good chance that you're not a native english speaker, and that if you aren't, I'm being quite the ass here. So if this is the case, my bad. You're still wrong and it's still hard to argue with you because of the lack of clarity of your writing, but the writing at least is understandable.

HeroFox
23-06-2010, 21:58
Of course not. The Ring is the best magic defense in the game, and it can be taken by a unit champion. Nothing in any other army book comes close to doing what it does as well as it does, even for double, triple, or quadruple the points.

@Don Zeko
He already gave examples of what a 25 point item should look like. Something that stops you from shooting within 24". That's his own example.

a18no
23-06-2010, 22:00
a18no, would it be to much to ask that you be either wrong or illiterate, but not both? I want to respond to your posts, but the general lack of proper spelling, punctuation or grammar is so severe that I genuinely can't understand what you're trying to say about half the time. That said, let me make a couple of points.

#1: comparing the ring to the Book of Hoeth or Cupped Hands is silly; these items just do fundamentally different things and can't easily be compared. I think a better comparison is to magic resistance. Like the Ring, magic resistance is useless if the enemy has no magic, and like the ring magic resistance does nothing if the enemy casts at other units that aren't protected.

Just to do a rough comparison, MR(2) isn't as good as the protection offered by the ring, but is close enough for the sake of this argument. So tell me, do you think a 25 point talisman that gave every unit, friend or foe, within 12" MR(2) would be overpriced at 25 points? If not, wouldn't such an item be less effective than the Ring of Hotek, which can stop spells cast with IF, can kill the enemy mages, and is increasingly effective as spells become more powerful? If so, why do Dark Elves have a talisman that gives the bearer and nobody else MR(2) for 30 points? Is there anything else in the game that can so thoroughly neutralize several hundred points of units for 25 points?

Of course not. The Ring is the best magic defense in the game, and it can be taken by a unit champion. Nothing in any other army book comes close to doing what it does as well as it does, even for double, triple, or quadruple the points.

I'm francophone, i can write in french if you prefer...

Your point #2 is good, but in the same argument as before. And i'll bring the same too: the magic resistance has no drawback. My biggest problem with the ring is that. I can't fix a point cost on it only because of that: how can we say what's the value of dark elf magic?? The full close combat army is better than magic?? shooting is better?? I can't say. The ring as the same probability of nullify your magic than it has to nullify mine. No matter what you think about the capacity of casting out of it, you can, i can. But it's not the point: having to stay out of the magic option can't be evaluate OBJECTIVELY.

I THINK THAT THE VAlUE OF THE MAGIC, IS THE CAPACITY TO PROTECT 2 TO 3 OF MY STRONGEST UNIT WITH NO MAGE AT ALL IN MY ARMY. It's my evaluation of it. What's yours?? What would YOU want to let magic at home??

I approve near all argument you said before. But please understand that too...

And you're all gonna be happy, i'm out of here. if you want to talk, PM me

HeroFox
23-06-2010, 22:03
1. MR effects 1 unit.
2. MR2-3 costs more than the Ring and can't be held on unit Champions.
3. MR doesn't cause miscasts.
4. MR in 7th gives you additional dispel dice, which had a chance to fail. In 8th, it gives you a Ward save. Miscasts in 7th automatically fails the spell and causes your Wizard to roll on the chart. Miscasts in 8th causes you to roll on the chart of epic doom.

I'm sure I can come up with more, but my brain is fried reading all of a18no's posts :(

Kerill
23-06-2010, 23:32
1. MR effects 1 unit.
2. MR2-3 costs more than the Ring and can't be held on unit Champions.
3. MR doesn't cause miscasts.
4. MR in 7th gives you additional dispel dice, which had a chance to fail. In 8th, it gives you a Ward save. Miscasts in 7th automatically fails the spell and causes your Wizard to roll on the chart. Miscasts in 8th causes you to roll on the chart of epic doom.

I'm sure I can come up with more, but my brain is fried reading all of a18no's posts :(

You forgot that the ward save from MR in 8th won't even work against some of the nastier spells. Oh and the fact that the MR items don't have a 24" protection bubble.

And a18no as has been pointed out umpteenth times its very east to allow your sorceress to cast for most of the game whilst protecting every important unit with the ring at the same time.

It has been said many many times and yet you refuse to answer it. In 8th its even easier since you can measure any distance at any time.

Just noticed a relevant battle report has been posted:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=263523

Just one case but interesting in two ways:
1) That CRRRRRRRAAAAAZZZZZZZZZZZYYYY DE player took the ring and a level 4 sorceress, how did he manage that? Could it be he placed her more than 12" from the ring? The cad, what foresight he showed!
2) Ring of hotek kills a cool 700+ points. Not sure what the VPs are in 8th for killing general and bsb but probably 8-900 VPs netted by the ring all in all.

HeroFox
24-06-2010, 00:43
Ring of hotek kills a cool 700+ points. Not sure what the VPs are in 8th for killing general and bsb but probably 8-900 VPs netted by the ring all in all.

Cool story bro.
Makes me sad, but that's expected. This thread makes me sad.

WarmbloodedLizard
24-06-2010, 01:26
Slann get their casting power from disciplines, not from magic items. With the exception of Cupped Hands, the arcane item selection for Lizardmen is pretty weak.

first off, the slann doesn't come with a free discipline, it comes with rumination. absolutely no one would not take it (except if heavily comped).

secendly, there are a lot of items I would like to have:
-plaque, 15 points instead of 50 with about the same effect.
-scroll(s)
-cube
-and pretty much any other arcane item available to him.


@a18no: I did not read everything you wrote but what I read clearly shows that you have no idea what a balanced item with an appropriate points cost is. almost everything you write is unfounded, not thought to the end and not at all convincing. for example:


the pendant is there to remove the common way of killing character: with the strongest attack, ADAPT

even with an S3 attack the item is already underpriced. 4+ ward usually costs 45pts. your talking about "the strongest attack" but it really isn't strong at all.

S3 = no ward
S4 = 6+
S5 = 5+
S6 = 4+
S7 = 3+
S8+ = 2+
that's what the item would look like if it was balanced. push it one higher if you want because they are elves.

it's got nothing to to with adapting. you ALWAYS adapt according to what you opponent is fielding and doing. but with things like the ring you can only semi-adapt. you will be at a serious disadvantage from the beginning, because you fight with a 1500pts list(2250-750pts in magic) against the 2225pts DE list. and since the DE book is almost through the board underpriced, this even more extreme.

Do you know magic: the gathering? Armageddon. It kills all your lands and all lands of your opponent, fair right? NO. because YOU can prepare for it, you can evade its effect. you can hold back lands, can include mana producing artifacts and creatures, play cheap creatures.
There's a reason why it isn't reprinted at its cost, it is just too good for the low investment. You can't properly adapt to it.

sulla
24-06-2010, 01:28
Here's what I'd do with the ring of hotek in 8th;

Same cost, same radius and switch (any caster casting of targetting into the bubble), but I'd change the effect to "Any spell cast on double 6's is a failed casting instead of a loss of control".

For 25pts you have an item that makes a bubble where miscasts can't occur. An area it is safer to use magic, but magic can always be dispelled. Not an overly powerful unit popper. More in line with the fluff of the item.

"Hotek, the renegade priest of Vaul made this ring to protect himself from the magical forces used in the forging of his artefacts."


and since the DE book is almost through the board underpriced, this even more extreme.

....Sorry but that's crap. If almost the entire DE book was underpriced, you would not be arguing about the same DE combos all the time. Because some of the DE book is underpriced and the majority is uncompetitive (and I'm speaking about 7th edition here... 8th changes the dynamic a lot,) you see the same units and items all the time. If you want to hate on DE, that's fine. but at least try to keep it accurate.

Maoriboy007
24-06-2010, 01:31
Here's what I'd do with the ring of hotek in 8th;

Same cost, same radius and switch (any caster casting of targetting into the bubble), but I'd change the effect to "Any spell cast on double 6's is a failed casting instead of a loss of control".

For 25pts you have an item that makes a bubble where miscasts can't occur. An area it is safer to use magic, but magic can always be dispelled. Not an overly powerful unit popper. More in line with the fluff of the item.

"Hotek, the renegade priest of Vaul made this ring to protect himself from the magical forces used in the forging of his artefacts."

I could live with that.

How about the Black Tongue Infernal Puppet combo, is that almost as bad, or does it seem a bit more reasonable at 80-85 points? Almost certain to cause the worst possible miscasts on one wizard during the game.

HeroFox
24-06-2010, 01:45
Just waiting for the FAQ. Who knows what they'll do. If Gav Thrope gets his hands on it and makes the FAQ, we're pretty much out of luck.

Foxbat
24-06-2010, 01:57
Here's what I'd do with the ring of hotek in 8th;

Same cost, same radius and switch (any caster casting of targetting into the bubble), but I'd change the effect to "Any spell cast on double 6's is a failed casting instead of a loss of control". I could not live with that change. This makes the RoH still too good. Consider how it would work with say a mage with the Sacrifical Dagger and the new and improved RoH...

How about this, rather than your change, revise it to say “… any power dice that rolls a 6 is ignored”. Even with this change I am not so sure I like the 24” diameter protection bubble it gives. Should be smaller, maybe 18" diameter max.

HeroFox
24-06-2010, 02:01
Do you mean the Slann's version of the 50 point discipline that needs range to the enemy wizard and only comes if you take a lord-level character?

That is called Becalming Cogitation. And no it shouldn't belong on the ring.

I have some experience with game balance design since I work in the gaming industry.. so let me take a hack at it.

The best fix to the ring would be to change its effect, keeping in mind all the other items of similar price and who can carry it.
Don't change its cost, don't change the fact that it's a talisman, and keep it fluffy. This is because game developers want to keep everything simple, stupid. They're not going change the fluff nor are they going to move things around because that'll be too confusing.

With that in mind, here's the fluff portion (thank you sulla):
"Hotek, the renegade priest of Vaul made this ring to protect himself from the magical forces used in the forging of his artifacts."

A couple of solutions, the main gist of it is here:
1. One use only. The Wizard carrying this ring ignores the effects of his first Miscast.
2. The Wizard rolls twice on the miscast table. He chooses which effect to apply.

Foxbat
24-06-2010, 02:14
Actually, depending on how many are taken it ranges from 0 pts to ~38 pts per Discipline.

Don Zeko
24-06-2010, 02:49
I dunno about that Foxbat. Each additional discipline is 50 points, so it's probably more accurate to say that a slann costs 225* points and must take between 1 and 4 disciplines at 50 points each.

*on a side not, what a steal! A level 4 Mage for 225 points that comes with a ward save and the highest leadership available to the army, what's not to like?

cptcosmic
24-06-2010, 09:26
stuff
you havent brought atleast one valid point. all of your "arguments" are seriously flawed and one sided thus I dont even know where to begin with.

Foxbat
24-06-2010, 11:07
Each additional discipline is 50 points, so it's probably more accurate to say that a slann costs 225* points and must take between 1 and 4 disciplines at 50 points each.That’s a good point. Make the ring a one-time use item.

Kerill
24-06-2010, 16:41
If the ring, as is was a one magic phase item which the DE player declared it would be fair at 25 points to shut down one magic phase. And compared to the cube of darkness (nearest thing I can think of) would still be a decent option, especially with how much faster armies can close in 8th.

PersonalGlitch
25-06-2010, 01:31
Why is everyone trying to say what they would do with the ring? It doesn't matter what you think or what you say.

The ring gives a miscast on any double rolled within 12" of it. It IS a 25 point item for the specific purpose of being placed on a towermaster or a cold one knight champ.

What is there to be FAQ'ed? This is specifically written into the army book and it wasn't fixed with the normal errata. It won't be "fixed", why don't you learn to live with it or avoid it?

Sure, it can be one of the most overpowered items in the game. It can also be one of the most USELESS items in the game, especially in the current edition. Do you know how many people run just a normal caddy? Alot of tournament players run caddies because magic is too unpredictable. Well guess what? That item becomes useless and can even damage the player in turn!

The ring of hotek forces the dark elf player to not use magic or to use magic in very limited quantities. You might be afraid of casting within 12 inches of it but there are other units which wont be protected. Bolt throwers, Hydras, dark riders, harpies and whatever else is trying to snap at your flanks.

Also with the new rules of magic spells are easier to get off. With a level 4 you get +4 to cast. This means most d6 damage spells go off very easily which may not be your uber destructive spells, but it is enough to kill off a t3 5+ BG unit. Or you can throw 2 dice at a spell and with +4 your average is going to be 11 which will get off quite a bit of nasty spells. Your miscast average on 2d6 is 16.67, not very high and not very scary. It might happen, but so what? You could also blow yourself up normally.

Ontop of this, if you have a lvl 4 and a lvl 2, let the lvl 2 throw your crazy destructive spell at the BG unit, she may die but oh well. 200 pts for 400pts seems like a fair trade to me. Before, if you miscast your spell failed, but currently that is no longer the case. So go for it, nobody is stopping you.

Or you can even shoot those pathetic t3 5+ to death. They are elves for crying out loud, you're afraid of them? On turn one, my main opponents will pour every drop of fire and base magic into my BG and they normally won't survive to turn 2 without my opponent's good graces. Harpies won't block for long and hiding them makes them ineffective.

This is just my thoughts on the matter, if you want to continue crying about the problem and not searching for a solution then stop playing this game because that is what this game is about. Finding solutions for what your opponent is throwing at you. I am sorry if it may seem too hard to overcome but then maybe you just aren't meant to be a good tactician.

Sure, its overpowered and maybe a tad underpriced. If you wanted to make it 35 points or something, then let my Towermaster take a 35 points item.

As for those ideas on what you should do for the ring:

1. The ring was 35pts with a 6" radius in 6th ed and it was NEVER taken.
2. It isn't worth 50pts and it definitely isn't worth 100pts , I would not buy a characters just to hold onto a ring, it isn't that precious, I'll do something else.
3. 6" is just enough to cover my one unit or maybe another one if I put them next to each other, maybe if I ran a master with it behind my army it would be effective.
4. The only one I did like would be the double sixes failing to cast, or even any double not casting. I would prefer the spells to not go off, rather than let them go off and kill my units just for the chance of killing your wizard.

HeroFox
25-06-2010, 02:08
Sure, it can be one of the most overpowered items in the game. It can also be one of the most USELESS items in the game, especially in the current edition. Do you know how many people run just a normal caddy? Alot of tournament players run caddies because magic is too unpredictable. Well guess what? That item becomes useless and can even damage the player in turn!

Please, tell me how many people run just a caddy in 8th. Do you have statistics for such a claim, or are you just pulling stuff out of your erm.. hat, because 8th isn't even out yet?

edit:

Ontop of this, if you have a lvl 4 and a lvl 2, let the lvl 2 throw your crazy destructive spell at the BG unit, she may die but oh well. 200 pts for 400pts seems like a fair trade to me. Before, if you miscast your spell failed, but currently that is no longer the case. So go for it, nobody is stopping you.

Probably the most insane reasoning I've seen in a long time.
Yeah.. nobody is stopping me EXCEPT FOR THE MISCAST TABLE OF DOOM.

Wow. This forum never ceases to surprise me.

Don Zeko
25-06-2010, 02:36
Sure, it can be one of the most overpowered items in the game. It can also be one of the most USELESS items in the game, especially in the current edition. Do you know how many people run just a normal caddy? Alot of tournament players run caddies because magic is too unpredictable. Well guess what? That item becomes useless and can even damage the player in turn!

Yes, the ring of hotek is situational. But at least in 7th, here's the calculation. if you are a dark elf player and have determined that you don't want to take offensive magic of your own, you should put the ring on either a COK or Black Guard Champion. If you do this and the enemy has no magic, or magic that is mostly unaffected by the ring like VC, then you've wasted 25 points, which is no big deal. If, on the other hand, your enemy has a Slann, or Teclis, or tzeentch daemons, or a magic-heavy WoC list, or magic-heavy High Elves, or magic-heavy DE, or basically any other list with a lord-level mage, then you've just made several hundred points of hero choices almost entirely useless with a 25-point item. This is, as Joe Biden would say, a big ********** deal.

Now it's true that you are preventing yourself from taking a bunch of mages as well, but you'd still have to pay for those mages if you didn't take it. By not taking them and taking the ring instead, you've now freed up several hundred points to spend on troops. I know that a lot of people don't like magic-heavy armies, and they certainly don't like the worst offenders on my list above, but the Ring creates situations where a 25-point item means GG as soon as that Daemons player puts his army on the board. That's a problem. As a rule, 25-point items on unit champions should not decide the outcome of the game that often, but the ring will do so every time you play against a magic-heavy list.

Maoriboy007
25-06-2010, 03:29
...the enemy has no magic, or magic that is mostly unaffected by the ring like VC...As a rule, 25-point items on unit champions should not decide the outcome of the game that often, but the ring will do so every time you play against a magic-heavy list.

As a VC player I was forced to spam invocation because anything else had a good chance of blowing up my wizard/general. I would usually try to cast a Wind of Undeath of form outside the range, this would normally just draw out a scroll and waste my phase entirely.

PersonalGlitch
25-06-2010, 05:16
@Herofox: What I was saying was that if your not going to cast and you are too afraid to cast, you might as well try to kill the ring with your special spell on the weaker wizard otherwise your magic won't do anything for the full game. It was tactical advice, again: 200 pts for 400pts and killing of the ring? That is definitely worth it. If you are too afraid to take a risk then whats the point?
I also wasn't saying that in 8th there was going to be no magic. I was saying in 7th it was all scroll caddies. Nobody knows how 8th is going to play out in terms of what people will use. But if you take only a little bit of magic or good situational magic it won't make a big impact on the game.

I understand that the 25pt item is definately worth the balance of having no wizards, but with the way magic is turning out I would put money on dark elf players running with magic anyway. If they take the ring, it could affect them just the same as you. Also, with the ability of premeasuring, you can determine what is protected and what isn't. Most of my opponents made the mistake by guessing maybe half an inch off of the 12 inch distance.

Also, the chance of miscasting with only two dice isn't significant. 16.67% chance of a miscast isn't going to destroy you. 3+ dice, definitely deadly because then its almost 50% (44% I believe). Then, with your wizards lvl bonus' your castings should come easily with fewer dice unless you want to cast the 6th spell at it's highest level.

Again, if you are afraid of this 25pt item in that BG unit or Cold one unit, kill it. Use lower level magic or even shooting. Take a stone thrower! My army trembles at the thought of being hit with anything of templates. Low toughness and low armor equals many dead elfs. Even a scraplauncher slaughtered a third of my warriors.

Please don't take the individual pieces of what I said and use that, then you disregard the everything that truly matters. YES, the ring is overpowered. YES, it can turn a game. NO, you won't automatically lose because its in the opponents army. Kill the unit! The largest a BG unit can be is 20, thats not alot of models that will survive against shooting or low lvl magic. With the true LOS there is no hiding from missiles or WM. Find a way to neutralize your threat and move on with the game.

I hate it whenever I am playing a game and my opponent miscasts, kills his sorcerer and then complains about broken rules. He then pretty much loses hope and falls back on the fact that I took the ring as to why he lost. Then, he walks around telling people how much he hates dark elves because we are all no skilled players very much like deamons. Seriously? Looking back at the game, I was completely outmatched in the shooting phase and with proper focus fire, my BG would have died turn 2.

Use all your resources to deal with your opponents problems and don't just rely on a single phase to win the game.

HeroFox
25-06-2010, 05:39
Why should I sacrifice 200 points to kill a 25 point item? That's not an even trade. Not even close.

What template? A lot of armies don't have templates.

A lot of armies can't shoot that well either.

Are you familiar with Ring of Darkness? That thing is atrocious when you consider the fact in 7th, a BSB can carry that in a BG unit ontop a COK and laugh that every viable answer outside of close combat with ASF I6 Black Guard is meaningless.

As long as you agree that the ring is overpowered, there's nothing more to say here. I don't need your tactical advice on how to handle the ring. I just need you to acknowledge that for 25 points, such a thing is an abomination.

PersonalGlitch
25-06-2010, 05:46
Its not for just the 25pt item. If it were, then you are right. You eliminate the entire BG unit in the process as well as the ring. You also open up the ability for your other casters to be able to do damage to your opponent.

The ring of hotek is overpowered, but it is not an abomination. :shifty:

HeroFox
25-06-2010, 05:54
Why does it have to be on the BG unit again? You have the flexibility to carry it on any unit champion. That by itself is rather godsend.

So explain to me who has the ability to eliminate a full BG unit with ASF Banner, Ring of Hotek and a BSB totting the Ring of Darkness.

I'd like to mention it doesn't even cost that much for that setup. It's not even considered a deathstar really.. because I have 3x Dark Riders units, 2x Hydras and a unkillable Lord on a Black Dragon, a unit of Shades + an Assassin coming towards you. How exactly do you deal with that?

I NEED my magic to deal with that. I'm confident my Magic can answer that, but I need access to higher damaging spells that costs more than 2 dice to cast reliably. Why in God's name should a 25-point ring stop my 400+ Slann from answering your army?

Please, just explain to me that one thing: Why should a 25-point ring stop me from casting into your army before it gets into my face and rapes it to the ground? Explain to me how that's fair.

red_zebra_ve
25-06-2010, 06:25
Why is it considerated fair that a 400+ Slann can take on a 2500 DE army without the ring?

HeroFox
25-06-2010, 06:34
He can't?

He can slow the advance of your army, weaken some of your monsters, or cripple your units to reduce the damage done to his army, but only if he can reliably cast onto them. Can he reliably cast onto them under the effects of the ring? The statistics provided to me suggest that 3 dice is a miscast at 44%.

Would you say it's fair that a 25-point item negated a 400 point Slann's ability to save his army?

Don Zeko
25-06-2010, 06:38
Why is it considerated fair that a 400+ Slann can take on a 2500 DE army without the ring?

He can't.

But more seriously, this gets at the trouble with accurate points cost for magic. In 7th, the effectiveness of a given mage depends on the differential between your total amount of magic and your opponent's level of magic defense. So a level 2 mage is going to be far more effective against an opponent with no defense beyond the 2 pool dice than against, say, a slann with the diadem and 2 dispel scrolls. If you don't spend any points on magic defense, you should expect to get annihilated when you run into magic heavy DE, WoC, Lizardmen, or whatever - unless you're a dark elf player. Then you just take a caddy and the ring of hotek. Where other armies would need several hundred points of magic defense to shut down, say, an 18 power dice tzeentch army or a slann + EotG lizardmen force, dark elves can do it for 175 and spend the rest on knights, hydras and black guard with which to messily devour your enemy's expensive, helpless mages. And that's why the Ring is broken.

Kerill
25-06-2010, 06:41
He can't.

But more seriously, this gets at the trouble with accurate points cost for magic. In 7th, the effectiveness of a given mage depends on the differential between your total amount of magic and your opponent's level of magic defense. So a level 2 mage is going to be far more effective against an opponent with no defense beyond the 2 pool dice than against, say, a slann with the diadem and 2 dispel scrolls. If you don't spend any points on magic defense, you should expect to get annihilated when you run into magic heavy DE, WoC, Lizardmen, or whatever - unless you're a dark elf player. Then you just take a caddy and the ring of hotek. Where other armies would need several hundred points of magic defense to shut down, say, an 18 power dice tzeentch army or a slann + EotG lizardmen force, dark elves can do it for 175 and spend the rest on knights, hydras and black guard with which to messily devour your enemy's expensive, helpless mages. And that's why the Ring is broken.


^^ Indeed
And as herofox mentioned some armies have almost no way to overcome some of the other DE toys short of magic or bringing DOW cannons along. Thankfully for WOC in 8th edition this is less true.

kardar233
25-06-2010, 07:14
1. The ring was 35pts with a 6" radius in 6th ed and it was NEVER taken.

As has been pointed out earlier, in 6th you had to be within 6" of the enemy wizard in order to do anything. The fact that now it is a larger radius is much less of an issue than the problem that is creates that bubble that you can't effectively cast into.

SideshowLucifer
25-06-2010, 13:54
Well it hasnt changed from what i have seen in the faq, though I do agree and wish it had been cahnged to just cause a spel to fail on doubles. I think it would generate less hate and actualy be a magical defense rather then how it looks to be working in 8th, where it is a magical retribution.

theunwantedbeing
25-06-2010, 16:20
Well it hasnt changed from what i have seen in the faq, though I do agree and wish it had been cahnged to just cause a spel to fail on doubles. I think it would generate less hate and actualy be a magical defense rather then how it looks to be working in 8th, where it is a magical retribution.

Yeah, would be soo much less broken if it stopped spells rather than just made the mage suffer a miscast and letting the spell through anyway.

:rolleyes:

I bet people would still tremble in fear of the 1/6 chance to miscast on 2 dice and be unable to cast anymore that turn with that mage.
Such is the way we like to whine about things online.

Skyros
25-06-2010, 17:31
I am completely unmoved by complaints from DE players that the ring is fairly costed because, hey, maybe the opponent doesn't take any magic and then they've wasted all those points!

It's 25 points. That's the same cost as a dispell scroll. Everyone gets to waste points when they bring some magic defense and the opponent brings no magic offense. DE waste fewer points than most, and get a much more potent defense into the bargain.

Even if the ring of hotek simply made all spells fail on doubles it would be very, very undercosted.

And having the ring of hotek doesn't mean no magic for the DE player. They use mages with hotek all the time. They either put the hotek on the flank, covering the cold ones, dark riders, and hydras as they pound the enemy and leave their mages in the center, or the put the ring of hotek in the center, protecting just about everything, and put their mage hiding off in terrain in one side and using the familiar to cast.

Vile Druchii
26-06-2010, 00:45
Yeah, the Ring of Hotek is vastly under priced, and it certainly needs a bit of a nerf in the errata.

But consider this for a moment...is it REALLY that bad to have a single build of ONE army have a good defence against magic? Not be immune to it, just have a very powerful deterrant to a lot of it? Think about this; Dark Elves don't have the magical defence of the High Elves (their closest approximation in other armies), so they will really suffer against those spells in 8th which can decimate their high cost units. I see a lot of the arguments in this thread are from High Elf players. What kind of defence could Dark Elves put up against a mage with the Book of Hoeth destroying a couple of units a turn without the ring? Sure, any other army is gonna suffer, but what's the harm in having a single build of one army having a decent defence against this?

I also have the sneaking suspicion that if this argument were to be reversed, and the ring was an underpriced High Elf magic item, there wouldn't be many High Elf players calling for it to be nerfed and the Dark Elf players would be the ones getting increasingly exasperated!

HeroFox
26-06-2010, 00:55
What kind of defence could Dark Elves put up against a mage with the Book of Hoeth destroying a couple of units a turn without the ring? Sure, any other army is gonna suffer, but what's the harm in having a single build of one army having a decent defence against this?

Take MR, Seal of Ghrond, a scroll, or watch the person try to IF big spells and fail the casting value, breaking his concentration and not being able to cast for the remainder of the turn. Remember, BoH only gets IF if he reaches the casting value of the spell and contains a doubles.

I highly doubt he'll be destroying a couple units a turn... that's just a ridiculous claim.

If High Elves had Ring of Hotek (no idea how since he's a renegade Priest of Vaul), I would never take such a ridiculous item. Miscasting on any doubles is not fun for me, not fun for my opponent, and if neither of us are having fun then wtf's the point.

Vile Druchii
26-06-2010, 01:12
Take MR, Seal of Ghrond, a scroll, or watch the person try to IF big spells and fail the casting value, breaking his concentration and not being able to cast for the remainder of the turn. Remember, BoH only gets IF if he reaches the casting value of the spell and contains a doubles.

I highly doubt he'll be destroying a couple units a turn... that's just a ridiculous claim.

If High Elves had Ring of Hotek (no idea how since he's a renegade Priest of Vaul), I would never take such a ridiculous item. Miscasting on any doubles is not fun for me, not fun for my opponent, and if neither of us are having fun then wtf's the point.


Those are all good tactics, and that's fair enough. Every army would have to do that to stand a chance against the Book of Hoeth, but as I said, what's the harm in having a single build of Dark Elves keeping you on your toes? No army should have an auto win button, and this isn't a Dark Elf one. Maybe against magic, but even then it's not guaranteed. Look at it this way, if it wasn't for those nasty items out there (affecting all phases of the game, not just magic) then what would be the point in building different lists? Just build one list that maximises your army's strengths, sit back and let the game play itself. Or...have these horrible little items crop up from time to time and force you to reassess your tactics on the fly. That's what keeps Warhammer interesting for me.

And I dunno about the magic...some of the new laws will either do an awful lot of destruction or cripple entire units. Hell, even Flames of the Pheonix will ruin a Dark Elf infantry unit's day, and that's become easier to cast now!

And I applaud your stance against the use of the ring, even in your own army, but you're not alone. Some of the Dark Elf players have said on this thread that they don't/won't take the ring. Obviously, looking at people's reactions and tales of battlefield woe, that's not the case by and large. I wonder if it's a racist thing...people tend to react more harshly if it's a powerful Elf thing! :p