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Latro_
16-06-2010, 17:35
So all the other armies seem to have this thread but the olde beastmen dont (i did do a search honest!).

So the book is on public display now and lots of folks have had a good read, WS is buzzing with it. Seems the beastmen have indeed got a boost with the likes of moster infantry fighting in ranks, stubborn for blocks of infantry etc...

What do you guys think will be the swing in beastmen tactics?

I was thinking 3x2 ranks minotaurs now looks like a pretty sweet option, Both ranks can fight, they get a res for the rank and they can also dispel ranks since they have 2 ranks right? Also I assume if they fight other stuff like chariots or single ranked knights/other mos infantry they become stubborn? since they have more ranks.

DarkstarSabre
16-06-2010, 21:35
Of course something to realise is that casters using the Lore of Beasts get a buff when using spells on Beastman units. Good for Shaman buffers but gods help your beasts if its used against them. It could hurt. A lot.

Paraelix
16-06-2010, 22:02
Of course something to realise is that casters using the Lore of Beasts get a buff when using spells on Beastman units. Good for Shaman buffers but gods help your beasts if its used against them. It could hurt. A lot.

Unless you've used it to make them T6 first :D

Rotokultaxe
19-06-2010, 16:22
Basic lore of beast spell will make gors with extra hand weapon very viable: +1 A and +1 St combined with hatred will be brutal.

BSB is now a must: it allows you to re-roll every leadership test: this includes Primal fury...

madden
19-06-2010, 16:52
With what I've seen so far the tactic of lots of chariots is not going to be effective as no rank busting no rank and still getting hit back after impacts etc.

txamil
19-06-2010, 17:08
We can get a solid BSB with a nice profile too.

Wargors seem a bit of a rip off compared to the heroes in other books, so I'm not sure we'll see Beastmen Hero armies.

The magic items are a pretty big deal for us- our item list wasn't all that hot compared to others.

Spawns are total junk now, which is too bad with the change to %. Their move is terrible.

I'm looking forward to 8th. Should be a lot of fun and with %s there are just so many possible lists to try out now for some fun.

Mithras69
19-06-2010, 19:34
I expect to see quite a lot of armies with no rares and 50% invested in specials since the specials have a better value for points imo. Multiple mino's, harpies and razors are gonna rock!

Shamutanti
19-06-2010, 20:25
Malagor seems rather scary now in 8th, what with lots of +casts if you spam spells off due to a round of high power dice.

Rotokultaxe
19-06-2010, 20:52
I agree that special choices will see a lot of play (even bestigors are playable with 8th ed.), but rare choices are still interesting: large targets no longer suffer from the opponent's +1 to hit with range weapons, and stomp attacks add a lot of power on the charge. Just be careful not to charge a unit with great weapons, cause now they will chop a giant in pieces in a single turn.

I might even try fielding a Ghorgon when I get enough $ to make a nice conversion. 7 attacks on the charge, and d6 stompy hits will win combats against a lot of ennemy units. And its high toughness means it won't take many wounds.

TheSanityAssassin
20-06-2010, 03:05
Big units of beasts can certainly do some damage with the Step up rules....no more getting stuck not fighting for the un-armoured guys. Still, they'll have to do lots of damage because they'll still die in droves.

Coyote81
20-06-2010, 03:10
Unless they errata the Cygor heavily, I'm going to take one every game. Yea, I know they reduced stone throwers to S3/S9 and allow armor saves, but over he's still solid, who the hell would attempt to cast spells after failing the Cygor LD test with a miscast table like the one in the 8th rulebook. Omg the table is scary. reminds me of the days of playing O&G but worse.

Voss
20-06-2010, 03:11
Basic lore of beast spell will make gors with extra hand weapon very viable: +1 A and +1 St combined with hatred will be brutal.


Bonus strength and toughness, not attacks. However, this isn't the most important thing.... the important aspect comes in when you have multiple shamen and choose to take the signature spell: augments and hexes stack.

Take 3 Bray-Shamen and dump +3 S & T on a unit.

Seth the Dark
20-06-2010, 04:18
Didn't Phil Kelly or someone tell us that Beastmen would make a lot more sense with 8th Ed. Is it true?

Replicant253
20-06-2010, 09:21
A bit more sense but their movement spell still baffles me, although of course the negatives of being charged in 8th edition are reduced significantly.

Latro_
20-06-2010, 09:47
Unless they errata the Cygor heavily, I'm going to take one every game. Yea, I know they reduced stone throwers to S3/S9 and allow armor saves, but over he's still solid, who the hell would attempt to cast spells after failing the Cygor LD test with a miscast table like the one in the 8th rulebook. Omg the table is scary. reminds me of the days of playing O&G but worse.

yea went to a games night roung a mates last night (well it lasted till 4am) with the new rules.

Miscasts are baaaaad! cygor imo is mandatory almost worth taking 2 since 8th is panning out to look like 3000pts will the the standard.

Plus D6 stomp attacks on big monsters is a real buff.

Von Wibble
20-06-2010, 14:47
We can get a solid BSB with a nice profile too.

Wargors seem a bit of a rip off compared to the heroes in other books, so I'm not sure we'll see Beastmen Hero armies.

The magic items are a pretty big deal for us- our item list wasn't all that hot compared to others.

Spawns are total junk now, which is too bad with the change to %. Their move is terrible.

I'm looking forward to 8th. Should be a lot of fun and with %s there are just so many possible lists to try out now for some fun.

These look like fair points.

Minotaurs look great in attack on paper, but if they charge high I hard hitters (mainly elf elites) they will take a lot of damage. Still very hard hitting though.

With the game more objective based the beasts ambushers could provide lots of cheap extra banners which can quickly take objectives uncontested. I think ambush suddenly became even better.

What do people think of the lore of the wild in context of the new edition? I think the bestial surge encourages you to go for charges from further out, knowing that even a failed roll has a good chance of being countered, and allowing the rest of the army to move up in support. But is it as good as a straight +1S +1T? I doubt it somehow.

Latro_
20-06-2010, 14:56
From also what i watched last night ungors seem to be worth it now.

50 with spears 10x5, 40x attacks, add a gorbull bsb thats more like 50 attacks as he frenzies em.

Mosters also seem to be winners, esp in ranks, so giant creature and minotaur spam seem decent options.

Harwammer
20-06-2010, 16:23
50 with spears 10x5, 40x attacks, add a gorbull bsb thats more like 50 attacks as he frenzies em.

Models making supporting attacks are only allowed to attack once. Frenzy wouldn't do the rear ranks much good!

Latro_
20-06-2010, 16:24
aye but its still 50ish attacks :P

decker_cky
20-06-2010, 17:21
I like how Cygors now reroll to hit against enemies with hand weapon and shield since it gives them a ward save. :P

Cygor is an excellent target for the basic beasts lore spell if you need to weather a little shooting.

But yeah....combat improvement, anti-magic improvement and shooting improvement makes a Cygor a winner in the new edition.

Seth the Dark
20-06-2010, 21:39
I like how Cygors now reroll to hit against enemies with hand weapon and shield since it gives them a ward save. :P

Cygor is an excellent target for the basic beasts lore spell if you need to weather a little shooting.

But yeah....combat improvement, anti-magic improvement and shooting improvement makes a Cygor a winner in the new edition.

Oh man that is just gross.

MiketheFish
21-06-2010, 06:29
What are we thinking with Minotaur weapon options? Extra hand weapons probably?

minionboy
21-06-2010, 06:45
What are we thinking with Minotaur weapon options? Extra hand weapons probably?

Great weapons are still Str 7 and -4 save, which is very nice for killing cavalry. I personally will probably still do one unit of each.

Coyote81
22-06-2010, 02:38
The beast lord on razorgore chariot combo with brass cleaver, hvy armor shield,ramhorn helm, +2 AS skin is going to be even more of a beast. Especially with all these people fielding big units of spear-men, that's a ton of armor saves and lots of attacks gained from the ramhorn helm.

Gormereth, the Fearmonger
22-06-2010, 02:55
If you like magic heavy builds I'd try the Dark Omen being fueled by three level 1 wizards standing around a herdstone.

explorator
22-06-2010, 03:16
I just noticed that Khazrak gets one attack with Scourge for each model in the enemies front rank. Fun against 10 wide infantry if you can avoid the challenge.

minionboy
22-06-2010, 08:15
The beast lord on razorgore chariot combo with brass cleaver, hvy armor shield,ramhorn helm, +2 AS skin is going to be even more of a beast. Especially with all these people fielding big units of spear-men, that's a ton of armor saves and lots of attacks gained from the ramhorn helm.

That's fun in 7th, but he's capped at a 1+ save in 8th. Save the +2 AS Skin, give him Slug Skin and Uncanny Senses instead.


I just noticed that Khazrak gets one attack with Scourge for each model in the enemies front rank. Fun against 10 wide infantry if you can avoid the challenge.

I knew I bought him for a reason!


If you like magic heavy builds I'd try the Dark Omen being fueled by three level 1 wizards standing around a herdstone.

I'm wondering if items that generate power dice are only usable by the model that generated it...

mrtn
22-06-2010, 12:47
What do people think of the lore of the wild in context of the new edition? I think the bestial surge encourages you to go for charges from further out, knowing that even a failed roll has a good chance of being countered, and allowing the rest of the army to move up in support. But is it as good as a straight +1S +1T? I doubt it somehow.
I think it's just as bad now. The first spell is still bad and some of the other spells are just too situational. Sure, the casting values get better when you get to add your level, but the beast lore is probably much better overall.

Gormereth, the Fearmonger
22-06-2010, 13:05
I'm wondering if items that generate power dice are only usable by the model that generated it...

That's a real possibility, I haven't been able to properly read that far in the new book, but between effects like channelling and items like the staff that generates D6 power dice for D3 wounds it seems like all bonus dice go to the pool.

Admittedly I don't know the Forbidden Rod "word for word" so it might specifically say "adds to pool"...or it might just give power dice to the wizard using it and be a really bad item.

someone2040
23-06-2010, 01:59
I like how Cygors now reroll to hit against enemies with hand weapon and shield since it gives them a ward save. :P
Seems like an errata candidate if I ever saw one before. Nothing magical about a hand weapond and shield after all.

lelandchaska
23-06-2010, 02:55
The Cygor makes much more sense in 8th Ed. with the premeasure rule. Under 7th Ed., this happened when I played with cygors:

Opponent finishes movement phase, measures distance between his wizard and cygor, found it to be 22". Makes leadership roll, casts spells. My turn, don't move cygor, guess 22" to his mage with stone throwing. Look at that, dead on!

Hoster
24-06-2010, 10:25
My friend and I were taking looks at the FLGS's preview copy of 8th edition and he says 40mm based creatures get max 3 attacks from second rank back. If this is the case then ranked up minos might be better with 2H weapons. That was my preference anyway so I won't be changing.

The new lore of beasts is great, putting lore of the wilds even more to shame than it already was.

madden
24-06-2010, 10:57
Also others can't complain that slug tounge is cheese any more as unit size seem to be getting bigger so his abilities won't hurt as much, and what are players oppinions on the stone of spite now burn there dispel dice off then blow them up with it seems usable as the days of x# of scrolls is gone.

Techpriest
24-06-2010, 16:20
As this was mentioned elsewhere, the Lore of Beasts seems it is going to be required for Beastmen now. The Base spell alone will make Gors And even Ungors hugely Viable. Cors with Strength 4 and toughness 5, and Ungors with Str 4 and Toughness 4 in a Horde Formation with Spears. This would hard to beat easily, then add in the banner of +1 strength and those Ungors are attacking with 4 Ranks with Strength 5 and most likely always getting their hatred from Primal Fury.

Also I do not know if this was verified. that any Random movement spells or effects that bring a unit in contact with another unit. The unit moving is counted as the attacker and will get the +1 CR. So even the Lore of the Wild has become more useful. That spell as well as the Viletide, since anything can be wounded on a 6 now.

Chariots not being insta killed with str7 also is great. They will make great support units now since we do not have to be afraid of Cannons and such. Does anyone know if Charoits get a Stomp attack as well?

Minotaurs and even Razorgors have become much more powerful especially running them in units that get ranks and 3 attacks from 2nd rank. Plus Stomp attacks. There is just to much that can be fielded in the beastman army that can be a real threat, that it will be hard for any opponet to prioritze what to kill first!

Walls
24-06-2010, 16:23
Actually, spawns aren't horrible. You can't react to them hitting you. Always have to hold.

Kellindel
24-06-2010, 16:38
These look like fair points.

Minotaurs look great in attack on paper, but if they charge high I hard hitters (mainly elf elites) they will take a lot of damage. Still very hard hitting though.


Sorry if my point here is wrong. I haven't had a chance to really go through the rule book, and I never played beastmen.

That being said, don't Minotaurs cause impact on a charge? And if they do, doesn't that mean those impacts will hit before any Elf Elite attacks (from SM, WL, and even PG)?

If this is the case then I have a feeling Elf Elites will still take a lot of punishment from Minotaurs like before.

But then again, since I haven't had a chance to read about Chariots and Impact Hits, I am most likely wrong.

Techpriest
24-06-2010, 16:44
Yes Impact hits still do get applied before Combat begins and before any Initiative. So the minotaurs and chariots can deal some damage before ASF, but the step up rule nullifies the effectiveness since they will still get their attacks back.

Kellindel
24-06-2010, 16:50
Yes Impact hits still do get applied before Combat begins and before any Initiative. So the minotaurs and chariots can deal some damage before ASF, but the step up rule nullifies the effectiveness since they will still get their attacks back.

True that, but when you look at what I know I'll be looking at (a block of ten minotaurs) chances are there is going to be little of my unit left to attack back.

Granted my friend (who is most likely reading this post now) will be putting a lot of his eggs in a couple minotaur baskets, I have a feeling he'll figure out a way to get them into combat. I just have to figure out a way to knock them out as much as I can.

The SkaerKrow
24-06-2010, 16:51
Something to keep a close eye on, Beastmen players, is whether or not multiple instances of the Extra Attack rule are cumulative. As it is currently written, having Frenzy and an Additional Hand Weapon provides a model with +1 Attack instead of +2, so arming Minotaurs with an Additional Hand Weapons may not be the best idea at this time.

LevDaddy
24-06-2010, 18:57
So even the Lore of the Wild has become more useful. That spell as well as the Viletide, since anything can be wounded on a 6 now.


Very true - If you have one or more shamans with a combination of Viletide, the Staff of Darkoth and give anyone in your army the Hagtree Fetish you have 10d6 re-rollable chances of rolling 6's to wound against a unit. That's some pretty decent firepower right there against anything with a low Armor save, regardless of their T.

Traitor Kin can be a lot of fun, especially for enemy Dragon Riders or tough cavalry like Cold One Knights. Devolve can be great if you're in a crowd, also no armor saves (edited). Mantle of Ghorok can turn even a lvl 1 shaman into a force of doom.

So don't count out Wild, it's not so much of a no-brainer as Beasts, but with some finesse it can let you take a firm grasp on the magic phase. I will definitely figure out a way to use it here and there.

The synergies with the Jagged Dagger are pretty insane as well. Give a Great-Bray Shaman the Dagger, a chariot, Slug Skin, the Brass Cleaver, and cast Mantle of Ghorok (or other A boosting spells) and you can be banking a crazy amount of PD with the kills that that combo can generate. Slug skin does hits to all enemies in BtB which could be 5+ because of the chariot, Brass Cleaver gives you an exta attack for anyone in Btb (another 5+) and the Mantle gives you +d6 attacks, and all the attacks I mentioned (except Slug Skin) can be boosted by +d6S from the Mantle! On top of that I believe the gained PD can be saved and used anytime during the game...right? I'm not sure how that works with the 12 max PD per turn in 8th, but it's still cool.

Also - If Bray-Scream kills (remember breath weapons add 2d6 S3 attacks in CC - no armour saves with Bray-Scream) count as close combat kills, add the Jagged Dagger and that's even more PD banked right there, but they probably don't because those attacks will occur during the magic phase. If anyone has better knowledge of that, please share. Either way, it's a pretty cool spell as well, especially the no armour saves.

So, long story short, we have a lot of options in the magic phase, and T5 on the GBS is pretty sweet.

Walls
24-06-2010, 22:32
You can only EVER have a max of 12 PD even after items, spells, abilities, etc. There's a chance you are wasting points with PD boosting. The way to go is getting +1 (or more) to cast or dispel now.

LevDaddy
25-06-2010, 00:05
You can only EVER have a max of 12 PD even after items, spells, abilities, etc. There's a chance you are wasting points with PD boosting. The way to go is getting +1 (or more) to cast or dispel now.

I believe the rule with the Jagged Dagger is that models killed in CC by the bearer of the Jagged Dagger are put aside. They then can be 'sacrificed' to generate 1 PD each during any magic phase in the game (I believe).

SO, you can have a bank of slain models with the Jagged Dagger aside - say you have a bank of 7, you roll 8 PD for a turn, you can sacrifice 4 of the models for 4 PD and have 12 that round and still have 3 models at bay that can be sacrificed for PD during other turns. Is this correct?

Techpriest
25-06-2010, 11:57
Checking the Jeweled Dagger, it does say place any models killed in CC aside. These models may be used in the magic phase. Each model MAY be extended for a PD. So yes if you stack out your Shaman to do some damage in CC he can bank a lot of extra PD, and not have to worry about going over 12PD limit.

lelandchaska
25-06-2010, 14:24
Something to keep a close eye on, Beastmen players, is whether or not multiple instances of the Extra Attack rule are cumulative. As it is currently written, having Frenzy and an Additional Hand Weapon provides a model with +1 Attack instead of +2, so arming Minotaurs with an Additional Hand Weapons may not be the best idea at this time.

It's funny to think of, but they may need to errata the new 8th ed rulebook the day it comes out. Frenzy and extra hand weapon should stack. Also, don't the minotaurs have an ability that gives them an extra attack for every round of hand to hand combat that they win? If extra attacks did not stack, that special ability of the minotaurs would be useless. Considering they likely wrote the Beastmen book with 8th ed in mind, it would make no sense for them to do that.

mrtn
25-06-2010, 16:10
Wasn't the extra attack rule something special that's not used in the game yet? I don't believe they wouldn't let ordinary attacks stack. :eyebrows:

lcfr
25-06-2010, 16:25
Checking the Jeweled Dagger, it does say place any models killed in CC aside. These models may be used in the magic phase. Each model MAY be extended for a PD. So yes if you stack out your Shaman to do some damage in CC he can bank a lot of extra PD, and not have to worry about going over 12PD limit.

I've put my GBS on a Razorgor Chariot and equipped him with the Hunting Spear, Jagged Dagger, Uncanny Senses, and Slug Skin for exactly this reason!

lelandchaska
25-06-2010, 16:37
Wasn't the extra attack rule something special that's not used in the game yet? I don't believe they wouldn't let ordinary attacks stack. :eyebrows:

People with copies of 8th ed have posted on warseer that the language regarding the new extra attack rule is ambiguous and could be read to say that you cannot stack extra attacks from different sources. I'm one of the unfortunate ones who hasn't seen the new book yet. :cries:

The SkaerKrow
25-06-2010, 17:34
Wasn't the extra attack rule something special that's not used in the game yet? I don't believe they wouldn't let ordinary attacks stack. :eyebrows:"Extra Attack" is one of the few things that I checked in the new book.

Both Additional Hand Weapons and Frenzy grant the model the "Extra Attack" rule. The Extra Attack rules means that the model receives +1 Attack. Now, in the past multiple instances of special rules of this sort (the best example would be the Armor Piercing rule) were not cumulative. For example, if you added Armor Piercing to a weapon that already had the Armor Piercing rule, there was no further effect. If this practice continues to persist into 8th Edition (my time with the book was too limited to conclusively lean one way or the other on this), the bonus for having an Additional Hand Weapon will not be cumulative with the bonus for Frenzy. This is potentially bad news for Witch Elves, Plague Monks, Minotaurs and even Gors (and apart from Minotaurs, none of those units were exactly setting the world afire with their combat prowess).

Latro_
25-06-2010, 17:37
Ooo that sucks, good job i'm putting my warbull in a unit of ungors :)

lelandchaska
25-06-2010, 18:04
"Extra Attack" is one of the few things that I checked in the new book.

Both Additional Hand Weapons and Frenzy grant the model the "Extra Attack" rule. The Extra Attack rules means that the model receives +1 Attack. Now, in the past multiple instances of special rules of this sort (the best example would be the Armor Piercing rule) were not cumulative. For example, if you added Armor Piercing to a weapon that already had the Armor Piercing rule, there was no further effect. If this practice continues to persist into 8th Edition (my time with the book was too limited to conclusively lean one way or the other on this), the bonus for having an Additional Hand Weapon will not be cumulative with the bonus for Frenzy. This is potentially bad news for Witch Elves, Plague Monks, Minotaurs and even Gors (and apart from Minotaurs, none of those units were exactly setting the world afire with their combat prowess).

I completely agree with your analysis as to how special rules are treated when you have multiple sources (i.e. that they do not stack). This is why I think that they will have to errata the 8th ed brb the day of its official release because I really doubt that they intended for Extra Attack not to stack.

My poor Khorne chaos warriors are in such limbo:

Hand Weapon and Shield - Frenzy means no parry bonus
Two Hand Weapons - Possible that extra attacks don't stack
Halberds and Shields - Not allowed to use hand weapon if weapon is upgraded

Techpriest
26-06-2010, 15:56
I really hope the rule for Add. Hand weapon and Frenzy not stacking is wrong, or is corrected. that would cut the efectivness of Minotaurs and Minotaurs characters immensly. Add. Hand weapon should not be discounted due to Frenzy, it makes no sense.

Latro_
26-06-2010, 16:22
its kinda weird, if true it makes khorne warriors better off with a shield! wtf, cant be right.

Von Wibble
26-06-2010, 17:43
True that, but when you look at what I know I'll be looking at (a block of ten minotaurs) chances are there is going to be little of my unit left to attack back.

Granted my friend (who is most likely reading this post now) will be putting a lot of his eggs in a couple minotaur baskets, I have a feeling he'll figure out a way to get them into combat. I just have to figure out a way to knock them out as much as I can.

Well, lets say those 10 minos charge a unit of 20 swordmasters 7 wide. They only kill 4 with impact hits bacause only 5 can be btb, and the swordmasters are throwing 21 attacks back, causing on average 13 wounds. Granted, the minos then get another 10 or so wounds with regular and crush tehm attacks, but the combat seems pretty close to me, and the minotaurs cost a lot more than the swordmasters. The results are even more brutal on a per points basis against witch elves....

I think that minotaurs became an anti horde tool whilst (ideally buffed) gor and ungor with chariot support are there to deal with elites.

As far as not stacking goes, that one is just silly. Beasts are supposed to be 8th edition compatible - so why include frenzying units with ehw if it can't stack?

Walls
26-06-2010, 17:52
I pretty much can guarantee they'll errata that or Frenzy is ONLY a disadvantage now. Hell, Frenzy is hugely bad as is. We get to premeasure now. You move a unit towards those chaos warriors and stop 15.9" away. Oh, you're in range of their max charge now...

Khorne armies will really hurt with frenzy. That extra attack could alleviate some of it though.

madden
26-06-2010, 18:02
But you only have to charge if you fail a ld test or else you act normaly. So frenzy can now be controlled most of the time, the x weapon and stacking is more of a concern at the moment.

Hoster
26-06-2010, 18:08
No errata is needed for the Extra Attack issue. The book clearly states that special rules are cumulative and thus extra hand weapon and frenzy stack. It's not even ambiguously worded; it states this fact at the beginning of the special rules section.

Latro_
26-06-2010, 18:51
Well, lets say those 10 minos charge a unit of 20 swordmasters 7 wide. They only kill 4 with impact hits bacause only 5 can be btb, and the swordmasters are throwing 21 attacks back, causing on average 13 wounds. Granted, the minos then get another 10 or so wounds with regular and crush tehm attacks, but the combat seems pretty close to me, and the minotaurs cost a lot more than the swordmasters. The results are even more brutal on a per points basis against witch elves....

I think that minotaurs became an anti horde tool whilst (ideally buffed) gor and ungor with chariot support are there to deal with elites.

As far as not stacking goes, that one is just silly. Beasts are supposed to be 8th edition compatible - so why include frenzying units with ehw if it can't stack?

Yea thats the way i'm doing my army,2 units of 6 minos and a huge block of ungor spear men with a huge block of gors, stubborn ld9 (lord) and reroll from bsb combined with beast unit bump spells should help them win a war of attrition with elite stuff.

Techpriest
26-06-2010, 21:13
I also think it is worth mentioning that the Bound Items for Beastmen are a lot better now that you get to roll PD for them and add the Spell level to it. The Horn for Bestial Surge and the One that casts Viletide. These two items give you two of the better spells for the Beastmen Lore and then you can Devote your Shaman's Lore to the Lore of beasts.

sulla
26-06-2010, 21:40
No errata is needed for the Extra Attack issue. The book clearly states that special rules are cumulative and thus extra hand weapon and frenzy stack. It's not even ambiguously worded; it states this fact at the beginning of the special rules section.Is armour piercing a special rule? If so, I may have to give the armour piercing banner to my dark elf crossbowmen then for 2*armour piercing. Possibly the banner of murdeer too for armour piercing *3. Crossbows with -3AS... nice.

(In reality, I don't doubt that special rules stack, but I doubt the same rule will stack with itself multiple times. Still, I guess we'll have to wait and see.)

Dr.Mercury
27-06-2010, 01:29
Well, lets say those 10 minos charge a unit of 20 swordmasters 7 wide. They only kill 4 with impact hits bacause only 5 can be btb, and the swordmasters are throwing 21 attacks back, causing on average 13 wounds. Granted, the minos then get another 10 or so wounds with regular and crush tehm attacks, but the combat seems pretty close to me, and the minotaurs cost a lot more than the swordmasters. The results are even more brutal on a per points basis against witch elves....

I think that minotaurs became an anti horde tool whilst (ideally buffed) gor and ungor with chariot support are there to deal with elites.

As far as not stacking goes, that one is just silly. Beasts are supposed to be 8th edition compatible - so why include frenzying units with ehw if it can't stack?

How do swordmasters get 13 wounds?
I am failing to see where your math-hammer comes from.:confused:

Ramius4
27-06-2010, 03:20
Also I do not know if this was verified. that any Random movement spells or effects that bring a unit in contact with another unit. The unit moving is counted as the attacker and will get the +1 CR. So even the Lore of the Wild has become more useful.

That's not the way Bestial Surge works bud. The second to last line of the spell "Units will stop if they come within 1" of another unit."

The spells are not changing in the upcoming Errata documents. This has been confirmed.


I also think it is worth mentioning that the Bound Items for Beastmen are a lot better now that you get to roll PD for them and add the Spell level to it. The Horn for Bestial Surge and the One that casts Viletide. These two items give you two of the better spells for the Beastmen Lore and then you can Devote your Shaman's Lore to the Lore of beasts.

Again, this isn't how it works. You don't add anything to the casting roll when using a bound spell. You just treat the power level as the number needed to cast it, just like an ordinary spell.


How do swordmasters get 13 wounds?
I am failing to see where your math-hammer comes from.

You're right about his mathhammer. They only get 12;)

Just an FYI. The Sword Masters would get 21 attacks, 14 of which will hit (needing 3's). ASF+higher I will give them re-rolls (confirmed to be in the upcoming FAQ, SoA works with Grt Weapons) so he'll end up with 18 hits total.

His 18 hits wound on 3s, giving you a total of... 12 wounds.

Dr.Mercury
27-06-2010, 06:58
Hmmm, I had not seen anywhere in the new book where it allows ASF with great weapons and higher initiative to reroll.
In fact the book clearly states that the two cancel each other out, and hits are resolved at normal initiative.

Ramius4
27-06-2010, 07:36
Hmmm, I had not seen anywhere in the new book where it allows ASF with great weapons and higher initiative to reroll.
In fact the book clearly states that the two cancel each other out, and hits are resolved at normal initiative.

I know what it says in the rulebook.

It's the upcoming HE Errata document that I was talking about. Speed of Asuryan takes precedence over the rulebook rule that says GW and ASF cancel each other out. Essentially, HEs are always going to have ASF, just as they do now. So that means they'll get re-rolls to hit as well if they have an equal or higher Initiative.

Got it?

Dr.Mercury
27-06-2010, 14:35
I know what it says in the rulebook.

It's the upcoming HE Errata document that I was talking about. Speed of Asuryan takes precedence over the rulebook rule that says GW and ASF cancel each other out. Essentially, HEs are always going to have ASF, just as they do now. So that means they'll get re-rolls to hit as well if they have an equal or higher Initiative.

Got it?
Dude:wtf: I was not doubting you, I was simply stating that I had not seen the rule you were talking about. No need to get up in arms about it.

So, to answer your question, Yes, I "Got it"

mightygnoblar
27-06-2010, 14:45
and i highly doubt that this is going to be the case to be honest, why make an explicit rule for how the two interact only to make an exception?

Witchblade
27-06-2010, 16:12
and then of course there's the matter of the lion chariots, who really...

... oh, sorry, wrong thread. I thought I was in the 8e. HE Tactica. :shifty:

Rhaivaen
27-06-2010, 19:52
and then of course there's the matter of the lion chariots, who really...

... oh, sorry, wrong thread. I thought I was in the 8e. HE Tactica. :shifty:

for a minute it went that way, but lets kick it in the right direction again! Mooohoooo...:D (*berserk bunch of crazy cows stampeding through the threads..)

Ramius4
27-06-2010, 20:13
and i highly doubt that this is going to be the case to be honest, why make an explicit rule for how the two interact only to make an exception?

I had it read to me directly from the upcoming Errata document. You can doubt all you like, but you'll be wrong;)

Anyways, I was just using it to explain to someone why swordmasters would get so many wounds. I wasn't trying to derail the thread.

@ Dr. Mercury: I wasn't up in arms about it. Sorry you read it that way, "got it" was used where "make sense?" should probably have been, and was meant to be taken in that way.

So anyways, on topic... I'm really liking the Stone of Spite. Since it's an enchanted item I'm thinking that I'll start taking a level 2 carrying that and a Power Stone. You do your best in the magic phase to run the opponent out of dispel dice, and hopefully he doesn't have a dispel scroll. Save a single dice for your power stone to cast it and hope for the best.

Obviously the Stone of Spite is very situational, so it's just not always going to be effective for you. But for my money, using a power stone is about the best way to attempt it in the first place.

Techpriest
28-06-2010, 19:27
What is everyone's opinion on Running a Doombull instead of a Beastlord? I know the leadership is one less, but with a BSB and getting to re-roll all Leadership Tests, this would help counter the lower Leadership and supply Frenzy to a unit you put him in.

The Best build for the Beastlord always seems to put him in a Chariot for the larger base size to take advantage of the Brass Cleaver and Slugskin Plus the impact hits. Using a Doom bull in this way can cut down on the cost a bit as well as give protection of a unit around him.

Malorian
28-06-2010, 20:13
Doombulls in anything other than units of minotaurs is pure suicide due to the new look out sir changes, and in a minotaur unit it is overkill.

I would go for the beastlord.

Dr.Mercury
28-06-2010, 20:53
I have still not seen the changes to look out sir.
Several people have mentioned it, but I could not find it anywhere in the book.

decker_cky
28-06-2010, 21:01
Look out sir only applies with the same unit type. Monstrous infantry is different than infantry. Ergo, doombulls in gors get no look out sir.

Dr.Mercury
28-06-2010, 22:07
Look out sir only applies with the same unit type. Monstrous infantry is different than infantry. Ergo, doombulls in gors get no look out sir.
I see that rule for the 3" 4+ look out sir, bit I did not see that under the regular look out sir.
The normal, character in a unit 2+ look out sir did not make any stipulations to unit type that I saw.
Am I just blind?

sulla
29-06-2010, 02:13
Another minus for the 'bull is that his frenzy makes gors, ungors and bestigors less killy than hatred reroll in big units.

decker_cky
29-06-2010, 02:13
Doesn't say it in the champion section, but in the characters section under characters and shooting it has the clause "and he is of the same troop type as the unit."

Ramius4
29-06-2010, 02:18
Doesn't say it in the champion section, but in the characters section under characters and shooting it has the clause "and he is of the same troop type as the unit."

If characters are no longer getting look out sir! unless in the same unit type, I wonder if they can also be picked out by non-template shooting and magic... If so, it will be extremely rare to see these types of characters leading units they don't match up to.

Mach_5
29-06-2010, 05:47
With the max-10 stats in 8e are models with bloodgreed now unable to gain more than 10 attacks?

Walls
29-06-2010, 06:00
You can always get more then 10 attacks. it's the one stat that over rides it... I... think?

At least it is now, anyways.

Latro_
29-06-2010, 08:58
i guess with all these stubborn combats bloodgreed might actually get you up to those many attacks, scary.

PurchasedPig
29-06-2010, 11:01
Doombulls in anything other than units of minotaurs is pure suicide due to the new look out sir changes, and in a minotaur unit it is overkill.

I would go for the beastlord.

You can give the Doombull a good save and stick him without bodyguard for fun. This would not be a good choice for the general obviously but why not just go for both? With the new Percentage system you could (presumably) fit both quite easily into 2k as long as you didn't give the Beastlord too many goodies.

-PurchasedPig-

Ramius4
30-06-2010, 01:29
i guess with all these stubborn combats bloodgreed might actually get you up to those many attacks, scary.

Yes, but in 7th if you kept winning combat like that you'd break the unit in the first place, so it's not such a bonus if you're stuck fighting the same unit for 3 rounds because they're stubborn.

Latro_
30-06-2010, 10:01
I guess its also actually fairly easy to deal out a bucket load of damage but still loose the combat. Since models are removed from the back they are still gonna hit you with the front rank, the second rank and often (with eliter stuff) before ye minotaurs. They they'll have more combat res from ranks etc....

quite easily loose a combat with minos i think.

defo putting my warbul in a big unit of ungors with spears :)

Techpriest
30-06-2010, 18:40
Elites dishing out a lot of wounds to Minotaurs is going to happen. the inititive is going to be hard to over come. But most of those elites are Str3 or 4. The Minotaurs natural toughness will help keep models alive to strike back and the stomp attack will help in the end for the CR. But even with all That I still think it is going to be nessacary to have the Lore of Beasts and concentrate on getting the +1 Str and +1 Toughness spell off. This will make those attacks coming in before inititive a lot less effective and ensure to most attacks back.

I think hiding a Minotaur in a unit of Ungors is going to be counter productive. The Doombull Can be picked out by Cannons and Bolt Throwers and will not get the "Look out Sir" Roll. And even is CC, the Ungors will supply a lot of kills to your opponent that the Doombull cannot over come.

I am Starting to like the iIdea of Stacking a Minotaur character out and sending him out alone to draw fire and cause havoc while the rest of the army moves forward and buffs itself.

madden
30-06-2010, 19:00
Similar to my thoughts, my bsb used to be a gorebull but having no look out sir neuters it when you need it near the center of the line so he is now a wargor and the doom bull joins a six strong mino herd running down the flanks with a couple of chariots in support.

decker_cky
30-06-2010, 19:22
Minotaurs aren't made for hunting elites...they're made for chewing through cheap ranked units.

Techpriest
30-06-2010, 19:28
Minotaurs aren't made for hunting elites...they're made for chewing through cheap ranked units.

I agree they are not made for that, but that being said. Using elites to Counter Minotaurs is going to happen. So I am trying to make sure I can get the best out of them in that situation.

JDman
30-06-2010, 20:59
Can you put a beast hero (25mm base) in a unit of ungors (20mm base)?

How would this work with the new rules?

decker_cky
30-06-2010, 21:00
You can put him there. He'd have to sit to the side of the unit since he doesn't fit cleanly (not in an actual file), but he'd have full shooting protection and look out sir.

Ramius4
30-06-2010, 21:09
I think hiding a Minotaur in a unit of Ungors is going to be counter productive. The Doombull Can be picked out by Cannons and Bolt Throwers and will not get the "Look out Sir" Roll. And even is CC, the Ungors will supply a lot of kills to your opponent that the Doombull cannot over come.

@ the bold text. According to what I'm hearing, you cannot pick him out with normal shooting. You only lose Look out Sir! when in a different sized unit. With any other shooting (bolt throwers, bows, handguns, etc) the hits are allocated evenly, with no model being hit more than once until all have taken a hit.

So really, there aren't a ton of armies out there with war machines that can pick these guys out.

decker_cky
30-06-2010, 22:08
Stone throwers + cannons represents a decent proportion of armies.

Ramius4
01-07-2010, 03:19
Stone throwers + cannons represents a decent proportion of armies.

Only Dwarfs and Empire get cannons. 2 armies.

Stone Throwers only Dwarfs, Orcs, Tomb Kings and Bretonnians. 4 armies...

You do realize there are 14 army books right? :confused: What I've listed all combined is only 33% of all army books.

While there are a few odd exceptions to the rest as far as things that can require a look out sir! roll, most are far from common on the battlefield. (scraplaunchers, hellcannon, helstorm rocket battery...) That's about it really.

I just don't see what the big fear is. Against those few armies I listed above, don't put minos in smaller units. Against the remaining 67%, you should be safe to do so most of the time.

Latro_
01-07-2010, 08:55
Even then got the likes of harpies you can take loads of now as well as minotaurs since there is no 0-4 restriction, plus ambushing normale units, should give warmachines a hard time.

Also a new common enchanted item (curse something?) for like 5pts that gives you a 6+ ward against war machines, might be worth it for that mino hero, 5pts is nothing when ye spending 250+ pts on a model.

Ramius4
01-07-2010, 14:48
Even then got the likes of harpies you can take loads of now as well as minotaurs since there is no 0-4 restriction, plus ambushing normale units, should give warmachines a hard time.

There's no 0-4 restriction on Special as a whole, although there is a 0-3 restriction per unit type for each Special, so you still won't see a ton of Harpies or Minotaurs.

decker_cky
01-07-2010, 17:22
Only Dwarfs and Empire get cannons. 2 armies.

Stone Throwers only Dwarfs, Orcs, Tomb Kings and Bretonnians. 4 armies...

You do realize there are 14 army books right? :confused: What I've listed all combined is only 33% of all army books.

While there are a few odd exceptions to the rest as far as things that can require a look out sir! roll, most are far from common on the battlefield. (scraplaunchers, hellcannon, helstorm rocket battery...) That's about it really.

I just don't see what the big fear is. Against those few armies I listed above, don't put minos in smaller units. Against the remaining 67%, you should be safe to do so most of the time.

Beastmen get stone throwers too. Skaven get cannons (and non-multiwound stone throwers). Daemons if you're playing special characters can get a stone thrower. Chaos dwarfs have stone throwers and dogs of war have cannons if you consider them.

Even ignoring CD, DoW and daemons, that's 50% of all armies which have stone throwers or cannons. It's a real risk to worry about.

Ramius4
01-07-2010, 17:46
Decker, for me it's probably not as big of an issue. Here's where you and I may differ: I don't play pickup games with strangers, and always know what army I'm facing beforehand. We all write a new list for each game.

If I were to play a tourney, sure, that's something I'd want to think about. Or if I brought a single list all the time.

Really it boils down to what the dynamics of your own games are. And I think that's something we both can agree on.

decker_cky
01-07-2010, 17:51
Yeah...definitely. I actually do something pretty similar (though opposite) in 7th edition - my gorebull joins minos unless there's cannons about, in which case they join ungors. If you have a unit of 5 or more minos, the option is definitely there. My gaming group is non-tailored...so its something I need to factor in.

Latro_
01-07-2010, 18:53
There's no 0-4 restriction on Special as a whole, although there is a 0-3 restriction per unit type for each Special, so you still won't see a ton of Harpies or Minotaurs.

Oh yea ofc, but you can still take say two uber 6 strong mino units and blow 150ish pts on 3 units of harpies to fly about and be a nuisance. I think harpies will be seeing alot more action, esp considering they have 2 attacks at i5!

Infact! they are almost worth taking in 2 ranks or even more! (unless flyers are skimishers? (fantasy noob))

hehe you could even give ye char that flying magic item and do a bit of a themed army

Ramius4
01-07-2010, 20:19
Yeah...definitely. I actually do something pretty similar (though opposite) in 7th edition - my gorebull joins minos unless there's cannons about, in which case they join ungors. If you have a unit of 5 or more minos, the option is definitely there. My gaming group is non-tailored...so its something I need to factor in.

Something you'll definitely have to think about then in 8th. Gaining the Frenzy was nice in 7th for the Ungors, but in 8th it will only be the first rank that benefits, so overall keeping Primal Fury rule will be of more benefit to you.

The downside is of course losing out on what the Minotaur himself does in combat. It's an awful big boost when they do, especially if you won combat and he starts gaining more attacks.

Do you run a big enough unit of unit of Minotaurs to get a look out sir! ?

I know that's a big point sink, but it can be damn fun too:D


Oh yea ofc, but you can still take say two uber 6 strong mino units and blow 150ish pts on 3 units of harpies to fly about and be a nuisance. I think harpies will be seeing alot more action, esp considering they have 2 attacks at i5!

Infact! they are almost worth taking in 2 ranks or even more! (unless flyers are skimishers? (fantasy noob))

hehe you could even give ye char that flying magic item and do a bit of a themed army

Just what you listed there is right around 1000 points. Quite an investment. It's not a bad thing, just very expensive to do. Even with a single rank, Minos are very hard hitting, but in 8th with everything you don't kill able to fight back they'll be taking wounds. Units of 6 or 8 may become more popular for some people than 2 units of 3 or 4 models each.

Lupercus
02-07-2010, 01:10
So far, I'm very, VERY happy to see that 8th edition has gone some way in making the new Beastmen all the better on the whole...very nice. I've really enjoyed the discussion here thus far, and it's basically answered all the questions I might have in regards to putting together an 8th edition Beasts army. Score.

I'm loving the large infantry blocks that seem to be a requirement now, and definitely plan on putting some together as soon as possible. The multiple rank Minotaur units are also great. I'm thinking that equipping them with additional hand weapons is the way to go, as if the extra attack bonus can indeed be combined with their Frenzy(which I'm thinking it can...), that's just awesome killing power...and that's not even considering Bloodgreed. So, a unit of 6 Minotaurs with additional hand weapons is most assuredly on order for me.

Like a few other posters have mentioned, I'll also be going for a huge block or two of Ungor with spears and shields, they're just so useful now.

All in all, 8th edition has me very excited for my Beastmen, and I think the changes have been nothing but positive, even if it has forced a bit of change in the typical army design...which is probably a good thing anyway.

Sorry to double post, but this is a different point. I was wondering, in a unit of 6 Minotaurs with additional hand weapons, would it be worthwhile to include a command or not? The command option is so expensive, especially when it severely limits your other Special options in a 2000 point game that I'm thinking it's best to avoid it...at least, a full command anyway. Is there any command options worth taking on such a unit?

Dr.Mercury
02-07-2010, 02:16
it really all depends.
For the 6 with AHW and full command you are looking at 404 points.

That is quite a bit, but consider you can probably make do without a champion, as he is pretty expensive for +1 attack. Although he can get a 25 point item, and the magic items in the book go a long way to making that much more useful.

I would probably just go with the musician, unless I want the magic item on the champion.
With the sheer number of attacks they get, I think the standard is just not really needed, but the musician giving the reform could be useful.

Sygerrik
02-07-2010, 04:02
Bonus strength and toughness, not attacks. However, this isn't the most important thing.... the important aspect comes in when you have multiple shamen and choose to take the signature spell: augments and hexes stack.

Take 3 Bray-Shamen and dump +3 S & T on a unit.

They stack with each other but not with multiple castings of themselves. Sorry.

decker_cky
02-07-2010, 05:01
They stack with each other but not with multiple castings of themselves. Sorry.

Where did you find that? All I could see was that Hexes and Augments were cumulative but can't raise a stat above 10. I'm pretty sure the same spell can stack with another copy of itself.

Latro_
02-07-2010, 08:57
as if the extra attack bonus can indeed be combined with their Frenzy(which I'm thinking it can...), that's just awesome killing power....

I'm pretty sure it has been confirmed that frenzy and AH do stack, choppy chop chop chop :)

Memnos
02-07-2010, 09:17
While +1 attack isn't much, remember that the Champion is one of the few Champions that have multiple wounds and can take magic items. Like the potion of strength or the I10 sword.

This makes it much more likely for the Minotaur to kill a hero in a challenge. Especially with augmentative magic.

Latro_
02-07-2010, 09:50
While +1 attack isn't much, remember that the Champion is one of the few Champions that have multiple wounds and can take magic items. Like the potion of strength or the I10 sword.

This makes it much more likely for the Minotaur to kill a hero in a challenge. Especially with augmentative magic.

You sir are a genius, missed that common magic item! that's like an amazing bit of kit for a mino champ.

mrtn
02-07-2010, 10:32
If I was to take a magic weapon on a mino champ I'd probably not bother with AHW, why pay 24 points for only two extra attacks? I'd rather take a shield, as that's useful for all the unit, including the champion. And yes, I know they lose the parry save if they're frenzied...

Harwammer
02-07-2010, 10:32
how much is the potion of toughness?

I can imagine a minotaur champion with great weapon and potion of toughness could be a fantastic character killer (enemy attacks bounce off his tough hide then 4+ str 7 attacks returned to take down the opponent).

Memnos
02-07-2010, 10:36
how much is the potion of toughness?

I can imagine a minotaur champion with great weapon and potion of toughness could be a fantastic character killer (enemy attacks bounce off his tough hide then 4+ str 7 attacks returned to take down the opponent).

20 points. The Minotaur hero is well worth the additional expenditure for the chance at getting that all-important +50 victory points for taking out a hero in a challenge with a champion. Sneaky little combo-magic items makes the Minotaur more likely than Ogres, Rat Ogres or anything close to them. Minotaurs should be hero-hunting from the very get-go.

It will be about sniping Champions, going in to combat and issuing challenges.

Techpriest
02-07-2010, 11:52
While +1 attack isn't much, remember that the Champion is one of the few Champions that have multiple wounds and can take magic items. Like the potion of strength or the I10 sword.

This makes it much more likely for the Minotaur to kill a hero in a challenge. Especially with augmentative magic.

WOW! Having a Mino Champion with the I10 sword is like having another Hero Character on the table. 5 Init 10 Str 5 attacks! Then with Impact hits before combat and with Buffs from the Lore of Beasts. That unit is a killer!

Latro_
02-07-2010, 12:09
The only problem i see with the I10 sword of fun is that its could be a bit meh against a lot of things come to thing about it.

Like yea you'v gone first and whooped a load of infantry, think its they are now taken from the back so most of the time they are all still going to fight back at full strength vs ye minos anyway.

Best application is most def against challendges.

Lupercus
02-07-2010, 12:23
Very cool, love the Minotaur champion ideas. Honestly I had never considered having, essentially, another character come out of it, with his magic item potential and all. Very cool. I think the expense, though, will have to wait until a game larger than 2000 points considering the slot percentage restrictions, which is fair enough. I'm trying to squeeze in a unit of 6 Minotaurs AND a Razorgor Chariot in 2000 points, and the only way it fits into the 25% slot is to have a basic unit of 6 Minotaurs with additional hand weapons, no command.

I suppose one could cut back on the number of Minotaurs in the unit to make room for command and goodies for the unit, but that wouldn't do much to take advantage of the new Ogre-sized unit advantages from having a second rank, not to mention making the unit more survivable and threatening. So, the command upgrades and such might have to wait until a slightly higher points level. Thoughts?

Latro_
02-07-2010, 12:27
Very cool, love the Minotaur champion ideas. Honestly I had never considered having, essentially, another character come out of it, with his magic item potential and all. Very cool. I think the expense, though, will have to wait until a game larger than 2000 points considering the slot percentage restrictions, which is fair enough. I'm trying to squeeze in a unit of 6 Minotaurs AND a Razorgor Chariot in 2000 points, and the only way it fits into the 25% slot is to have a basic unit of 6 Minotaurs with additional hand weapons, no command.

I suppose one could cut back on the number of Minotaurs in the unit to make room for command and goodies for the unit, but that wouldn't do much to take advantage of the new Ogre-sized unit advantages from having a second rank, not to mention making the unit more survivable and threatening. So, the command upgrades and such might have to wait until a slightly higher points level. Thoughts?


you do know special can be 50% right? I have 12 minotaurs in my 2k list ;)

Memnos
02-07-2010, 12:30
Very cool, love the Minotaur champion ideas. Honestly I had never considered having, essentially, another character come out of it, with his magic item potential and all. Very cool. I think the expense, though, will have to wait until a game larger than 2000 points considering the slot percentage restrictions, which is fair enough. I'm trying to squeeze in a unit of 6 Minotaurs AND a Razorgor Chariot in 2000 points, and the only way it fits into the 25% slot is to have a basic unit of 6 Minotaurs with additional hand weapons, no command.

I suppose one could cut back on the number of Minotaurs in the unit to make room for command and goodies for the unit, but that wouldn't do much to take advantage of the new Ogre-sized unit advantages from having a second rank, not to mention making the unit more survivable and threatening. So, the command upgrades and such might have to wait until a slightly higher points level. Thoughts?

Drop the special Chariot and go for Core chariots. If you're going Gor, get a unit of 5*7 to break Stubborn, charge the chariot and the Gor in and win combat with the chariot, then make them lose Stubborn with the unit.

That will also give you enough points to beef up a Minotaur Champion. Remember that winning games comes down to 100 victory points more than your opponent. If the opponent can force a grind-fest, it'll be difficult to get those victory points. Gaining an extra 50 for your Minotaur Champion killing a Wizard in a duel will be vital in some games.

Lupercus
02-07-2010, 12:38
Latro: I did not:) Still waiting on my copy of the rulebook on July 10th here in Canada. Well, that changes things quite a bit then! Awesome, thanks for filling me in!

Memnos: Those are some excellent points as well. Thanks to Latro's helpful knowledge of percentages though, I don't think they'll be a need to replace the Razorgor Chariot with Tuskgors...I can do both!

Also, that's a huge unit of Gor, I like it! I've really got to get my hands on the rulebook so I can be fully up to speed on all of these new dynamics, so I'm sorry for my lack of knowledge at this point. Thanks Memnos.

Ramius4
02-07-2010, 14:38
You sir are a genius, missed that common magic item! that's like an amazing bit of kit for a mino champ.

I'm surprised anyone wasn't aware of that honestly. Pretty much every book now has at least 1 Champion type that can get items. It's one of the first things I look for, since it's one of the more fun aspects of making armies.

PS. Bestigor Champs can get a 25 point gift... (cue cricket sounds...)

The only gift that looks good on a Bestigor Champ is the scaly skin save but even then it's much better on one of your characters. They at least could have allowed a magic weapon. The gifts overall are underwhelming and there's too few of them.

At least the +1 Initiative for 10 points makes sense now. There's no way I'd have bought that in 7th, but now I'd consider it.

Techpriest
02-07-2010, 15:46
Quick question for anyone who has had a good look at the new BRB. I know monstorous mounts extend the Leadership bubble for Generals, and seeing as how there are no such Mounts for Beastmen. Does Mounting a Character in a Chariot extend the Leadership bubble?

decker_cky
02-07-2010, 16:18
I think the way to go with mino champs if you take them is in Great weapon minos with a potion of toughness. S7 T7 for a round should win against many heroes and a few lords.

Ramius4
02-07-2010, 16:22
Quick question for anyone who has had a good look at the new BRB. I know monstorous mounts extend the Leadership bubble for Generals, and seeing as how there are no such Mounts for Beastmen. Does Mounting a Character in a Chariot extend the Leadership bubble?

No it does not. And it's not 'monstrous mounts' that extend the Ld to 18". It's being mounted on anything with the large target rule.

Dark Hide
02-07-2010, 17:46
After reading the thread, and being reminded of the Mino Champ getting magic items. started thinking maybe the new ASF basic magic weapon on him. Impact hits plus his hits all before getting swung at sounds like a good way to deal with elves and other high Initiative races like them pesky Elves. Since one ASF doesn't cancel out another ASF they swing Simultaneously. the sword is 25 points so it just fits in. if not elves i guess you can go with the chaos gift for +1 In but heros almost always going to have better Initiative.

Ramius4
02-07-2010, 17:52
After reading the thread, and being reminded of the Mino Champ getting magic items. started thinking maybe the new ASF basic magic weapon on him. Impact hits plus his hits all before getting swung at sounds like a good way to deal with elves and other high Initiative races like them pesky Elves. Since one ASF doesn't cancel out another ASF they swing Simultaneously. the sword is 25 points so it just fits in. if not elves i guess you can go with the chaos gift for +1 In but heros almost always going to have better Initiative.

@ the bold text. You're wrong, they do cancel each other. The BRB says that if both sides have ASF, then you fight in Initiative order as normal.

Besides, ASF isn't all that great in 8th unless you've also got a higher Initiative for the re-rolls. Things fight back regardless of who hits first.

Mike3791
02-07-2010, 18:14
No it does not. And it's not 'monstrous mounts' that extend the Ld to 18". It's being mounted on anything with the large target rule.

So basically Karl Franz's "leader of men" rule is negated and given to everyone with a large target mount...

decker_cky
02-07-2010, 18:18
He gets it from horseback or on foot though doesn't he?

Ramius4
02-07-2010, 18:26
So basically Karl Franz's "leader of men" rule is negated and given to everyone with a large target mount...

IIRC there are 4 special characters with the same 18" rule. Gorbad Ironclaw, Gorthor the Beastlord, Louen Leoncouer, and Karl Franz.

Either way, no biggie.

Techpriest
04-07-2010, 01:15
I just posted my First list in the Army list section, let me know what you think. Beastmen 2250 8th

LevDaddy
06-07-2010, 18:45
Has anyone had any recent games using 8th that they can share some insight on? Strategies, builds, magic lores etc?

Gaz-A-Tron
07-07-2010, 23:16
OK, so Shard of the Herdstone. With say 5(ish) lvl 1 lore of beasts bray-shamen within 6" (probably 2 per bestigor bunker). It's a grand total of 425 pts, without any further equipment.

It means beastmen can theoretically dominate the magic phase with 2d6 + 5 + 5 chances to channel (max 12) to cast, vs the highest of those d6 + channel worth of dispel.

Why lore of beasts? the signature spell (i.e. duplicateable) gives +1S and +1T to a unit (iirc). Bring on hordes of S4T5 Gors as core, or super cheap S4T4 ungors, or S5T5 bestigors as tanks (albeit expensive ones). Minotaurs with T5 could even be survivable enough to field...And don't forget the extra +1 to cast on beastmen

Thoughts?

mrtn
08-07-2010, 00:57
Yeah, the herdstone shard should be more useful now that the pool is shared again. And I agree, the signature beast spell looks decidedly tasty. Those bestigors will be effectively S7 as well.

Dreadgrass
08-07-2010, 03:46
DISCLAIMER: Have not read 8th ed rulebook but have heard a lot from someone who has

Seems to me a unit of 40 Ungor (10 x 4) with spears, standard and a minimally kitted out Wargor and with a BSB nearby is going to be killer in small games at least.

Re-rollable LD 8 Primal Fury plus massive numbers of attacks for less than 350pts... (not including the cost of the BSB, though if the Wargor in the unit WAS the BSB it'd still work out just over)

Also, would a unit of 3x2 Mino's with shields and without a character be good? They wouldn't be frenzied 1st round, so they'd get the parry save and still dish out a large number of attacks + stomp... I'm thinking a sort of flanking role to support above Ungor units. Maybe even charge enemy flank, let them re-form to face the mino's then flank with large infantry block...

Dark Hide
08-07-2010, 17:28
Horde vs. Ambush I see alot of people embracing the horde rule but with the ambush rule would it be better to go with more soild block (20-25) for ambushing as opposed to fewer bunker horde blocks (40+). with less being able to break ranks these days it seem ambush from behind or sides will win more combats.

I am also a huge fam of the enchanted horn that prevents units from using muscians to reform to face the ambusher once in combat, great for eliminating the spear bonus and the parry saves for the duration of that combat.

LevDaddy
09-07-2010, 16:32
I can't see the PDFs at work, can anyone sum up the Beastmen stuff?

Latro_
09-07-2010, 16:52
What you guys think of this 2kish list for a game tomorrow:

Beastlord 236
Ramhorn Helm, Heavy Armour, Uncanny Senses
Gnarled Hide, Tali Protect, Brass Cleaver

Slugtounge 190
Hand Weapon

Gorbull 245
BSB, Great Weapon, Armour of Destiny

46 Ungors 291
Spears, Shields, Full cmd

34 Gors 297
2x Hand Weapons, Full Cmd

6 Minotaurs 378
Great Weapons

6 Minotaurs 378
Great Weapons

main blocks are ld9 stubborn with a re-roll for a fair while. everything is pretty killy, like the ungors get 50 odd attacks etc

Dark Hide
09-07-2010, 17:33
Erratta changes little for the Beastmen army book mostly term changes stuff like the spawn rules are replaced by Random movement, Random Attacks. just stuff the puts the new terms for old abilities.

Ghorros and Ungorl are champion in all regards.

No VP are awarded for Savage Dominion "Monsters" or Morghur Spawns

A Shaman on chariot with Skin of Man can still Scout.

Cygor can target a units standard bearer if he has a magic banner to get re-rolls

BSB can have gifts and a magic banner.

Gift of Chaos attacks do not count as magical.

Hunting Spear is a throwing weapon.

Aura of Madness wounds are randomised like shooting

I think those are the few things that may not of been clear

LevDaddy
09-07-2010, 17:41
Thanks Dark Hide, I figured there wouldn't be too much to clear up since the book is so new.

So we can have a Scouting Shaman mounted Chariot?!?!? That's pretty cool.

txamil
10-07-2010, 02:00
So we can have a Scouting Shaman mounted Chariot?!?!? That's pretty cool.

Why? What are you going to do with him? I can't think of anything.

LevDaddy
12-07-2010, 17:57
Why? What are you going to do with him? I can't think of anything.

Unique = Cool.

As for usefulness, I'm sure we can think of something. At the very least it adds an additional early threat out there, no one wants to get a 1st turn chariot charge (assuming you go second), or have a shaman on a chariot behind your battle lines ready to cause havoc and ruin your battle plans.

Early turn Viletide, Traitor-Kin, and Devolve could be deadly to an enemy and could cause widespread panic. I realize it's more expensive and most of that could be done with a chariotless scouting Shaman but, obviously, the chariot grants the shaman some additional protection and potential 'punch'.

If you get some lucky ambush roles you can set up some early combos too, harass the enemy and give you time to march your main battle lines forward.

These are just a few things I can think of off the top of my head, I'm sure there is plenty more. It's not like having options is a bad thing, right?

Satan
13-07-2010, 14:47
Haven't tried my beasts our under 8th yet, but as I see it they can be seriously dangerous when it comes to magic.

The way I see it 2 "naked" lvl 2 shamans along with a lvl 4 that picks up the herdstone magic item can be placed in a defensive position in your deployment and one of them used to attempt summoning as according to the 6th spell in lore of the wild. Might be a longshot of course, but if you assign another lore, let's say Beast to the other lvl 2 he can attempt at +4 to cast to turn himself into a greater dragon whilst the main lvl 4 shaman actually does the useful stuff.

So, to summarize:

2 lvl 2 shamans, w. Shard of the Herdstone - Lore of the Wild, Lore of Beasts
Lvl 4 Shaman, w Skull of Rarkos - Lore of Beasts

10 PD on average, min +3 to cast, +4 to lore of beasts, +6 to lore of beasts for the lvl 4.

Memnos
13-07-2010, 15:05
10 PD on average, min +3 to cast, +4 to lore of beasts, +6 to lore of beasts for the lvl 4.

The Lore of Beasts rule doesn't add +1 to cast. It reduces casting costs by 1. Very important for dispelling, both in the turn cast and in subsequent turns.

Satan
13-07-2010, 15:16
The Lore of Beasts rule doesn't add +1 to cast. It reduces casting costs by 1. Very important for dispelling, both in the turn cast and in subsequent turns.

Ooops. Not to sure on the dispel though. Can't find anything that would suggest it affects the dispel value as well - not that I agree with that, just RAW - though logically one could arrive at the conclusion that a decreased casting value also equals a decreased dispel value on the turn a spell is cast, but I find it tricky in regards to RIP-spells though as the rules are written.

Latro_
13-07-2010, 15:49
Does the lore of beasts buff actually effect 'beastmen' units though? I thoughts 'beasts' was now a unit type like hounds etc and not necessarily gors ungors etc

Satan
13-07-2010, 15:56
If a spell from the Lore of Beasts is cast on ANY unit from Warhammer Armies: beastmen, the casting diffiulty is reduced by 1.

Paraelix
19-07-2010, 00:52
Another minus for the 'bull is that his frenzy makes gors, ungors and bestigors less killy than hatred reroll in big units.

I fail to see how you believe they wouldn't ALSO get their primal fury >_>

HalfEvil333
19-07-2010, 00:59
I fail to see how you believe they wouldn't ALSO get their primal fury >_>

Slaughter's Call specifically says it replaces Primal Fury with Frenzy.

Latro_
19-07-2010, 09:11
yea i have a BSB warbull in big unit of 46 ungors, think they'd of been much better with hatred and 40ish attacks than 50ish attacks. Think i'll run him on his own.

Sygerrik
21-07-2010, 04:53
So, I don't play Beasts, but...
Am I crazy, or is Gorthor now a really, really good SC? Not Throgg/Teclis/Anyone from DoC good, but pretty darn usable? For 125 points more than a standard Beastlord in a chariot, you get: +1 WS and A, an array of neat magic items (including KB, which costs 75 points otherwise), and two very powerful abilities: an 18" Leadership radius (which is hugely key to such a panic-vulnerable army, and with cheap troops, you will often be Steadfast Ld 9) and a random spell from the Lore of Death every turn (some of which are very, very, good... Purple Sun, anyone? Or Fate of Bjuna?)

HalfEvil333
21-07-2010, 05:31
So, I don't play Beasts, but...
Am I crazy, or is Gorthor now a really, really good SC? Not Throgg/Teclis/Anyone from DoC good, but pretty darn usable? For 125 points more than a standard Beastlord in a chariot, you get: +1 WS and A, an array of neat magic items (including KB, which costs 75 points otherwise), and two very powerful abilities: an 18" Leadership radius (which is hugely key to such a panic-vulnerable army, and with cheap troops, you will often be Steadfast Ld 9) and a random spell from the Lore of Death every turn (some of which are very, very, good... Purple Sun, anyone? Or Fate of Bjuna?)

Don't forget the random Death spell is at half the casting value, too; meaning a Purple Sun on a 8+.

The only real problem with Gorthor is he lacks any real protection. He lacks a ward save or a decent armor save. And in an edition where everyone strikes back, that stands as a bigger problem than before. Otherwise, yeah, throw him on a Razorgor chariot and he's a beast.

lcfr
24-07-2010, 15:42
For 125 points more than a standard Beastlord in a chariot

Less than that! A completely tooled up Beastlord on a Tuskgor Chariot would cost 325pts!

The only downside, like the above poster said, is that Gorthor is pretty much completely naked.

satchy
24-07-2010, 18:03
dont forget it counts as a "bound item" so even if you miscast/IF the "bound item" crumbles, but there is not item so you just ignore teh miscast i guess and still reep the reward of IF :P.

but all shooting does hit him on a 5/6 randomising so he can getting taken down easy ish

Warp-Juicer
24-07-2010, 18:30
Don't forget the random Death spell is at half the casting value, too; meaning a Purple Sun on a 8+.

The only real problem with Gorthor is he lacks any real protection. He lacks a ward save or a decent armor save. And in an edition where everyone strikes back, that stands as a bigger problem than before. Otherwise, yeah, throw him on a Razorgor chariot and he's a beast.

as I recall he can only ever be on his regular chariot. Sad, I know.

Palantir
24-07-2010, 19:17
Why would Wryssans (sp?) Wildform stack? You're just applying the spell to a unit that already has it.

Unit is affected by Wildform - cast Wildform again - unit is affected by Wildform. I would think you'd just overwrite the old spell, I don't think it stacks.

HalfEvil333
25-07-2010, 03:33
as I recall he can only ever be on his regular chariot. Sad, I know.

He has an option in the Army List part to place him and Bagrar on a Razorgor Chariot for a increase in point cost. Not that large of an increase, the same amount as the actual difference between a Tuskgor Chariot and a Razorgor Chariot.

Chaos Undecided
25-07-2010, 11:21
Personally I think I'd prefer to take Khazrak over Gorthor especially if I was looking to make use of ambushers, he's also something of a threshing machine versus hordes thanks to his Scourge, and his armours special rule isnt too shaby for protecting him against other characters.

Really I think Beasts has some of the more interesting selection of special characters none of them can be described as overpowering though really (overpriced maybe :p ). Not sure I'd ever use Taurox thanks to his special vulnerability though.

Malagor's wings mean he can make best use of the law of the wild which is quite short ranged in general but flying around on his lonesome is asking for trouble so maybe again one best left on the shelf.

I had been thinking that Moonclaw might be a better investment of points than a Cygor as imo assuming you left his riding beast at home he's got better survivability so could very possibly get off more stone thrower shots in a game than his monstrous alternative. Something of an interesting rules debate for him though as he makes every one in 12" take stupidity tests does that count as those units being subject to stupidity as defined in the BRB? as that would mean you would have a 12" anti panic blanket in your force.

In general though I think if any special was to become a standard part of my list it'd be Slugtounge a nice special rule that could easily make up his extra points value over a standard bray before the battles even really got started.

madden
25-07-2010, 14:01
Agreed slug's ability is best used against war machines and units of knights.

lcfr
25-07-2010, 16:33
So what do we find to work well in 8th, and what's getting shelved?

Here's a short list of units that have been making the cut in my list:

1. BSB w/Beast Banner - I run mine in a horde of 40-50 ungor spears, w/gnarled hide, heavy armour and a shield. Since he's placed at the edge of the unit he is kept pretty snug and safe from attacks by enemy RnF, and the unit's Halfhorn can save him from the first nasty challenge. The +1 S bonus on a unit dishing out so many attacks just devastastes almost anything that comes its way.

2. Ungor Hordes - Besides the Horde of spears just mentioned, I like having a second large block of ungors w/hand weapons. Since this unit doesn't enjoy the same kind of character support as their spear-brethren (I'm terrified of fielding a Gorebull in the unit and getting Cannonballed), they can act more as a tarpit in a 5x8 formation, or deploy wider like a horde against smaller enemy units where the extra attacks may make a difference. Currently, I see no reason why I'd rather have 27 FC Gors w/2Hws over the 45 Ungors w/FC I field now...

3. Chariots! - Tuskgor and Razorgor alike have been pulling their weight for me. Lately I've been using my Razorgor Chariot as a Hero/BSB assassin - usually the Razorgor is enough to do the job, but sometimes the Besti steps in to deal the killing blow. For their points cost Chariots are absolutely destructive, especially since there are a decent number of dangerous armies that will be striking before us.

I'll leave it at these 3 for now...not very original, but I want to see what others want to share. Personally I've been getting great use from my Bestigors w/Manbane Standard (the banner means they can occasionally crack open Steadfast units on their own), and my Centigors are creeping closer and closer to the bench to be replaced by 3 Razorgors or another Razor Chariot.

Mach_5
25-07-2010, 18:40
With monstrous beasts now getting up to 3 support attacks I'm lookin at using units of 2 razorgors deployed one in front of the other. Smaller frontage means less attacks back in combat, and the unit still gets 7 S6 attacks on the charge, plus one stomp. Not to mention T5 and a total 6 wounds all for 110 pts.

Mithras69
25-07-2010, 19:21
Why would Wryssans (sp?) Wildform stack? You're just applying the spell to a unit that already has it.

Unit is affected by Wildform - cast Wildform again - unit is affected by Wildform. I would think you'd just overwrite the old spell, I don't think it stacks.

Because its says so in the BRB, page 31:

"Note that bonuses and penalties from Hex, Augment and other spells are cumulative, but normally cannot take any characteristics above 10 or below 1."

Rhaivaen
25-07-2010, 20:29
So all the other armies seem to have this thread but the olde beastmen dont (i did do a search honest!).


Do it better then next time plz:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=238907&highlight=beastmen+tactics

search beastmen tactics, and it comes up easily

lcfr
25-07-2010, 21:44
I posted this same message in the other Beastmen tactica thread - all but one post in that thread have been made before July 10th, and all but a small handful before even the June playtesting.

Let's let it die peacefully and be remembered as our ast 7th tactica...there are far more recent and relevant posts on this thread.

Mods reading should probably do us Beastmen players a favor and kill one of these threads...the older one is a more suitable candidate to be put down, but if it has to be this one then so be it - less confusion in any case.

Chaos Undecided
25-07-2010, 22:38
Every army now has an 8th edition thread the old tactica are irrelevant now.

Still having doubts over the idea of Ungor horde's personally, think I'd rather use them in a 6 rank deep formation and let them support my Minos units in combats where they can.

ScreamingDoombull
26-07-2010, 18:47
How are people finding beastigors as compared to minotaurs? Based on a game I played Saturday, I'm thinking of dropping my minos for another unit of beastigors.

Is anyone else planning on ditching our beloved cows for blocks of the most hated BM unit of 7th ed.?

lcfr
26-07-2010, 20:12
I find minotaurs pretty ordinary, but I still run a unit of 4 w/GWs and musician to do any can-opening and heavy lifting. I run 22 Bestigors w/FC and Man-Bane Standard as well - these guys I find much more reliable.

satchy
26-07-2010, 21:05
I do like the man bane banner but i like the wailing banner (cause terror) much better, being able to cause fear in fear causers and making other units flee from charge is quite nice, its a little expensive though,.


Oh and reading the errata that sayd stead fast only discounts modifiers to your leadership from the diffrence in CR for break tests, does this mean the manbane standard lowers stead fast units LD? plus smack on a doom and darkness and that huge stead fast unit has at the very best a LD of 6?

Hannimar
26-07-2010, 22:03
I do like the man bane banner but i like the wailing banner (cause terror) much better, being able to cause fear in fear causers and making other units flee from charge is quite nice, its a little expensive though,.


The wailing banner is a waste of points IMO. Terror and Fear are useless in 8th as they don't add +1 to CR as was rumoured. Only the ld test, re-rollable when a BSB is around, and WS1 if not passed. Useless. :cries:

What do you guys think is better? Gors or ungors? And if so - large broad units, or 5wide to rely on steadfast?

decker_cky
26-07-2010, 23:01
I don't think either manbane banner or the wailing banner are worth it for bestigors. With Ld9 and reroll, you pass primal fury 99% of the time (and have a shot at frenzy), and likewise, you pass fear/terror 99% of the time. Really, there's the war banner (always good) and the flaming attacks banner, which makes up for something otherwise missing from beasts.

I like a mix of ungors and gors. For steadfast units, gors will never compare to 5 pt ungors. Spear ungors vs AHW gors is a fair question, but the answer is "both provide about the right performance for the points." I think I'm leaning towards gors with AHW right now, since they charge with extra attacks and overall are a bit more independent. I'm not convinced with shield gors yet. They're not cheap and ranked for steadfast, resilient to much damage or particularly killy. I'll give them a few more games, but I'm thinking all gors with AHW might be the way to go.

A few key characters that won't soon leave my list:
-Beastlord w/ 4+ ward, crown of command, sword of might, HA, Sh: Beasts have always done great at loading a few units up, but I've always had to use some manner of a soft flank to overload a certain area. The stubborn Ld9 block lets me turn my now extra killy bestigors into an anchor in my battleline.

-Wargor BSB w/ HA, Sh, Gnarled Hide, Beasts banner: See above spear vs AHW discussion. Put this guy into the biggest of whichever of those units you took and now you have a unit that can tear infantry apart. 3 rerolling S4 attacks per frontage will terrify a lot of units.

lcfr
27-07-2010, 00:24
My problem w/Gors is that even with a flurry of S3 attacks I can't count on them to do any serious damage, and with no armour and few ranks, I can't count on them to be Steadfast either!

The only Core I can count on to kill stuff are my Spear-Ungors w/Beast Banner-BSB, and my Chariots - while I've debated subbing 27 AHW Gors for my 5x9 block of HW/Sh Ungors, it just isn't appealing to me. I used to run a Core-heavy, Ambush army, but I quickly discovered that all the S3 attacks in the world can't kill your way out of a problem.

I want my Core to be either hitting hard and fast, tarpitting the enemy, or both! For me, there's nothing Gors can do that enough Ungors can't.

-yes, I've drunk the Ungor Kool-Aid...your fault Decker-

meowser
27-07-2010, 04:22
What are people's thoughts on running BSB w/ Beast Banner in a Horde unit to maximize the payout from the banner?

I've had success running 36-46 Ungor with a Gorbull BSB (BB, HA, SH, GH)

Has anyone tried a Wargor BSB in Gor horde?

sulla
27-07-2010, 07:22
I want my Core to be either hitting hard and fast, tarpitting the enemy, or both! For me, there's nothing Gors can do that enough Ungors can't.

-yes, I've drunk the Ungor Kool-Aid...your fault Decker-See, for me, I started with ungors for the numbers annd ranks with the same idea, but I've now changed my mind and prefer the extra resilience of gors over the extra numbers of ungors.

I've ditched my ungors for gor in my army now (and reduced my mino presence for extra bestigors and an extra lvl1 for a possible extra wyssan's wildform). Incidentally, my general has changed to be very similar to Decker's.

txamil
27-07-2010, 07:25
With monstrous beasts now getting up to 3 support attacks I'm lookin at using units of 2 razorgors deployed one in front of the other. Smaller frontage means less attacks back in combat, and the unit still gets 7 S6 attacks on the charge, plus one stomp. Not to mention T5 and a total 6 wounds all for 110 pts.

That's awesome! What models are you using?

someone2040
27-07-2010, 08:17
Has anyone tried a Wargor BSB in Gor horde?
In my 1000 point army at the moment I run a Wargor bsb, Beast Banner, HA, Shield, Gnarlded Hide in a unit of 24 Gors. In 2k this will be upped to 30 Gors (Unless I change my list around, which I'm messing about with at the moment).
I've found it's done reasonably well. Primal Fury (Given my General is in there also) and weaponskill 4, coupled with the strength 4 has tipped the balance against units such as Saurus Warriors.

Of course, I got absolutely slammed when I came up against Regenerating Throgg Chaos Troll's, but I just didn't have the tools to deal with regeneration (Coupled with abysmal parry saves so I didn't get steadfast).

satchy
27-07-2010, 08:30
on the point about the wailing banner, they may pass alot but with terror they always flee when failing there terror test if charged.

I do like the idea of the flaming banner but after 1 game with the same oponant he will know what my bestigors are up to and advoid them like the plague with hisregen units, at east with terrorit works vs 90% of units

Harwammer
27-07-2010, 08:57
I don't think either manbane banner or the wailing banner are worth it for bestigors. With Ld9 and reroll, you pass primal fury 99% of the time (and have a shot at frenzy), and likewise, you pass fear/terror 99% of the time. Really, there's the war banner (always good) and the flaming attacks banner, which makes up for something otherwise missing from beasts.

You always have good advice deker but I must say I can see a place for manbane banner; warbanner is all fine and dandy for making your wins bigger but against streadfast troops this is of little consequence. Since the FAQ steadfast only ignores combat modifiers for breaktests and as such I can see anti Ld items being handy for armies/units that struggle to contest steadfast.

Ramius4
28-07-2010, 19:15
Lore of the Wild is decent, despite the somewhat disappointing signature spell. If you can live with that aspect of it, there's no reason not to take it IMO.

Too bad they hadn't allowed characters to ambush along with units, then I could really see the use in that spell.

Hannimar
29-07-2010, 01:40
Lore of the Wild is decent, despite the somewhat disappointing signature spell. If you can live with that aspect of it, there's no reason not to take it IMO.

Too bad they hadn't allowed characters to ambush along with units, then I could really see the use in that spell.

To stop the Hero-hammer, our gaming group decided that we have 25% max on both Lord and Heroes. So I have about 810 points to spend on all chars in our 3250 games.

I managed to squeeze a Beastlord (Gnarled Hide, Brass Cleaver, Ram Horn Helm heavy armour, shield), a Wargor BSB and three shamans:

A Great Bray Shaman Lvl 4 (5+ward and jagged dagger)- Lore of Beasts
Bray shaman Level 2 - Lore of the Wild
Bray Shaman Level 1 - Lore of Shadows - Melkoth's M. Aura - to take down I or I and WS mostly in crucial fights.

I hope this is a good combination overall and they will do their part against my Dark Elf opponent this Sunday :). Maybe I'll post the whole army list and you'll tell me what you think could be changed as this will be my first battle using beastmen.

lcfr
29-07-2010, 14:46
Ran a herd of 3 Razorgors yesterday in lieu of my usual 6 Centigors - the piggies are infinitely better! Plus, it's one less unit that I have to worry about when they charge through woods. The WS3 is a pain, but they can still dish out a tremendous amount of hurt, and T5 w/3W makes them far more durable than a Centigor's T4 and 4+/5+save.

Davemaddocks
29-07-2010, 18:44
Has anyone tried a Doombull out yet?

My god its a blender!!

The set up i use is (forgive me i dont have the book infront of me)

5+ Scaly skin
uncanny senses +1 I
Always strike 1st sword
Ramhorn helm
Armour piercing attacks

Starts life with 6 attacks but with re rolls against a lot of things plus the more 1+ saves he makes the more attacks he gets +stomp and impact hits he is awsome at dealing with spearmen/hordes. killing aprox 8-10 a turn.

Plus he is sooo much fun.

Played 2k a game against skaven he took out 3 25 man slave/clanrat units and a hellpit abomination and lived to brag about it afterwards (shame about the rest of his army.)

The hellpit abom was the highlight for me as he dropped it in a turn as his bloodgreed was now on +4 giving him 10 attacks causing 4 unsaved wounds.
my opponent rolled for his attacks and got 3d6 which took 2 wounds off the Doombull but gave the doombull 4 more attacks which was enough for him to kill the abomination.

Loads of fun give it a go.

Ramius4
29-07-2010, 19:12
Has anyone tried a Doombull out yet?

My god its a blender!!

A few times now. Yup, they're very fun. The only real obstacle to their success are war machines taking them out before they hit combat. Awful hard to get a look out sir roll when you need 5 or more minotaurs around to do it.

I'm a big fan of the ramhorn helm on them, scaly skin, and the magic weapon that gives you an extra attack for every enemy model in base contact (usually 3 or 4, I forget the name of that one).

madden
29-07-2010, 20:51
Give them the iron shard trinket 6+ ward against cannon etc not the best but cheap and might just save his/it's life.

Captain Brown
29-07-2010, 20:56
Just a friendly reminder, I just deleted 11 posts that went a little beyond friendly discussion, I know you are all passionate about your army, but please refrain from calling out members publicly on the boards or letting your temper through when typing. I do not want to close the thread. Thank you from the WarSeer Inquisition, please carry on with your Beastmen in 8th Edition discussion.

Thank you,

Captain Brown

Ramius4
29-07-2010, 21:07
Give them the iron shard trinket 6+ ward against cannon etc not the best but cheap and might just save his/it's life.

I'd rather just risk it and be able to afford one more ungor:p

Palantir
30-07-2010, 20:50
Because its says so in the BRB, page 31:

"Note that bonuses and penalties from Hex, Augment and other spells are cumulative, but normally cannot take any characteristics above 10 or below 1."

Thank you! I've been looking for this. :)

Sweet.

Gorak
02-08-2010, 05:52
HEy found it! Ok so I'm thinks of running a doombull in a 20 beast bestigor unit, now do you fellow Beastlords thinks it's wise or is hatered better than frenzy? The unit will be 6x4 with the +1mv banner and the doombull will have crown of command,armour of destiny,shield. What do yea think? Oh and I do realise that there will be no look out sir but with a good roll you can get a 2nd turn charge in,or I'm a nuts for running this doombull?

decker_cky
02-08-2010, 07:32
Hatred is better than frenzy. 2 rerolling attacks vs 3 non-rerolling, but the rerolling is cheaper, and allows for more attacks from the bestigors.

mrtn
02-08-2010, 10:59
I agree with decker. :)

Gorak
02-08-2010, 17:30
ok looks like I have to rework the list than

lcfr
02-08-2010, 18:53
ok looks like I have to rework the list than

I've considered running a Gorebull in a second horde unit of ungors w/spears - the added bonus of having such a monstrous hero makes up for the slight edge lost when trading PF for Frenzy. The first horde unit of ungors is accompanied by a Wargor BSB w/Beast Banner.

The only things holding me back are 1. no 'Look out, Sir!' roll, and 2. the high pts cost of a minotaur character.

Ironcurse Icon (for 5pts it really is a great investment) or a chunky ward save can help offset not getting a LOS roll.

Gorak
02-08-2010, 20:48
BESTIGORS HAVE 1 ATTACK WS 4,(caps lock sorry) with doombull they would have 2, now with a beastlord with same wpn lay out I could have more bestigors...hmmmmm let me go to the drawingboard. Ok back form the drawing board in my loocal meta there is very few warmachine that can hit characters and the ones that do I'm not really scared about(plague catapult,salamanders) If I fing I;m not hitting enough I'l try the pf route. Now for monsters I'm planning to run a ghorgon, anybody have success with this eating machine.

Chaos Undecided
02-08-2010, 21:15
Really I'm not overly keen on spending points on the large monsters in the Beastmen list they have to slog across the battlefield and get shot to pieces before they'll ever get to have any fun, If you can summon one using Lore of the Wild thats fine as it can appear in pseudo ambush and be in a position to attack almost immediately.

I might consider buying a Cygor but its really just an overpriced stonethrower at the end of the day but otherwise your rare point allowance might be better spent on a small horde of spawns, just be careful of the panic them dying will cause.

Kaiserdean
02-08-2010, 21:42
Really I'm not overly keen on spending points on the large monsters in the Beastmen list they have to slog across the battlefield and get shot to pieces before they'll ever get to have any fun, If you can summon one using Lore of the Wild thats fine as it can appear in pseudo ambush and be in a position to attack almost immediately.

I might consider buying a Cygor but its really just an overpriced stonethrower at the end of the day but otherwise your rare point allowance might be better spent on a small horde of spawns, just be careful of the panic them dying will cause.

A large monster or two isn't out of the question, depending on what you'd like to replace it with.

I'm running mostly minotaurs (3 units) and a ghorgon. Sure, the ghorgon may take a few shots but then my opponent is ignoring my precious minotaurs.

Gorak
02-08-2010, 23:04
my thoughts exactly and with t-stomp you can eat one guy, get d3 wnds back and still ahve upto 6 attacks

sulla
02-08-2010, 23:37
Really I'm not overly keen on spending points on the large monsters in the Beastmen list they have to slog across the battlefield and get shot to pieces before they'll ever get to have any fun, ....which begs the question, "What would you prefer your opponent to shoot at in your army?" Or better still, "What will your opponent choose to shoot at instead?"

Gorak
03-08-2010, 01:32
ok new idea, greatweapons on minotaurs 3x3 or extra hand wpns, str5 is nice but at I3 most things will strike before you, so I was thinking str7 greatweapons would be better!

lemonpie
03-08-2010, 06:33
minos with sword n board gives em more of a chance put a gore bull in with bsb and take taurox makes em meaner razor gore look nice but i like my minos more this army can take some punishment and i see the sense in taking a cygo then take a great brayshaman and get that big spell (make ANOTHHER one of those biguns come in for free!!!!) with magic now makes that spell easier to cast

units of straight gores is seriously awesome with lore of beasts thrown on em and they can take a lil hurtin before combat

Gorak
03-08-2010, 08:07
oh and I would also liek every ones thoughts on the chailce of dark rain....seem not worth the points to me....

Palantir
03-08-2010, 09:52
oh and I would also liek every ones thoughts on the chailce of dark rain....seem not worth the points to me....

I'm stuck between the Pelt of Shadowgave and the Chalice.

With the chalice I can reduce the first or second turn of shooting, giving my guys a chance to actually get into safety, aka combat.

But my biggest concern is that my opponent will be massing small arms fire agains my minotaurs. I considered a Doombull with the pelt but that comes at a severe cost, his ward save...

Of course, both would be ideal, but I can't seem to justify taking both. What if I run up against a no-shooting army?
The chalice seems to be the better option simply because it can be taken by a shaman, but then again, it's only a slight nuisance for a proper gun line which will probably get enough shots off anyway to do severe damage.

mrtn
03-08-2010, 10:59
Palantir, how about joining a shaman with the pelt to your minos?

lcfr
03-08-2010, 15:37
I regularly run the Chalice on one of my Shaman, and even though there are times when it is of completely no use against certain armies, it works to great effect against armies running multiple warmachines and missile units. It's unfortunate that it doesn't have a longer game effect like the Skaven Storm Banner (can't believe it's only 10pts more), but it's a great way to get more goatboys through to the enemy. 40pts to potentially disrupt one or more of your enemy's warmachines and shooting units is a great investment imo.

Infiltraitor
03-08-2010, 17:54
I've been toying around with the logistics of Bestigors and they seem to fall short when compared to Minotaurs in almost every way. Strength 6 is awesome and re-rolling the single attack they get is great, but I think the automatic strength 5 hits and multiple wounds makes them so much better. The elite troops of other armies seem far better and going last means having to field at least 25 of 'em. Is there something I'm missing in evaluating their worth?

lemonpie
03-08-2010, 18:27
not really i played against some one running large units of them and he got ripped apart by ogres justh the fact that they can stand up to that many attacks and return with power

Odlox
03-08-2010, 20:42
Palantir, how about joining a shaman with the pelt to your minos?

Almost every time i set up a list, i put in a shaman with the Pelt, just to realize 5 seconds later that shamans cant wear magic armor. So i delete him and give him the Chalice instead :) That's why i think the Chalice is so much better, it can be taken by a shaman.

Ramius4
04-08-2010, 05:44
minos with sword n board gives em more of a chance

Frenzied troops can't use the parry rule in 8th. Shields are perhaps the worst option for them now.

I'm much more of a fan of using additional hand weapons. Screw a 6+ armor save:p Strength 5 is sufficient to take on any enemy, and your Initiative is average enough not to lose out most of the time.

Another good trick is putting the other trickster's shard on the Bloodkine. His base is big enough to touch most of the enemy front rank. Any characters in the unit having to re-roll successful ward saves is just a nice added benefit if you really want to go after one, or issue a challenge. I killed Karl Franz with this one a couple days ago:p

lemonpie
04-08-2010, 06:51
whoops forgot about that
i forget about that crap
give em an extra hand weapon give em more attacks
st 5 is sweet for them

Gorak
04-08-2010, 09:16
hmmm,, like the thoughts on the minotaurs, methinks I'll go with extra hand weapons. Now as for bestigors, there modles are so very pretty and I think with a doombull in them they will be seriouly crunchy.

mrtn
04-08-2010, 11:18
Frenzied troops can't use the parry rule in 8th. Shields are perhaps the worst option for them now.

I'm much more of a fan of using additional hand weapons. Screw a 6+ armor save:p Strength 5 is sufficient to take on any enemy, and your Initiative is average enough not to lose out most of the time.
Minos have light armour, so you still get a 5+ armour save from a shield, and you get the parry before getting frenzied, if you don't have a mino character in the unit.

lemonpie
04-08-2010, 16:06
take a big unit of minos with a gorebullbsb make that unit obnoxious in comb at by pumping them with magic and what ever bsb you'd like
i do the same with my ironguts and flank them with sturdy units

Gorak
04-08-2010, 16:38
unfortunantly gorebulls can't have the bsbs only wargors, now I'm thinking of thry at least 2 lvl 2 shaman to spamp the sig spell in lore of beast, thoughts on this?

Chaos Undecided
04-08-2010, 18:09
You should reread the Battle Standard Bearer box on page 84.

If you want to spam the spell enough to get through multiple casts on one unit maybe you should consider more lvl 1 casters instead.

triple_double_U
05-08-2010, 00:52
So is the general consensus now to field lots of cheap brayshamen over an expensive, +4 to cast guy?
I'm liking the idea of pumping out lots of wildforms, but how does it stand up in magic defence? a lot is going to get past +1 to dispel.

decker_cky
05-08-2010, 01:02
I like lower level mages. I can take 2 L2's for less than a L4 and spam basic spells (beasts or shadows).

triple_double_U
05-08-2010, 01:13
I think I'm tending towards lots of lower level casters too. I'll just have to spend my saved points on numbers to weather the magical storm (or buy another beastlord)

Also Beastlords in 1000/1500 are brutal! Mine has a 2+ save, 5 S5 AP attacks at Init 6. its horde butchering time.

lcfr
05-08-2010, 04:33
I am really not fond of Beastlords - they're just too expensive for my tastes, and I feel they don't have access to anything nifty enough to make them worthwhile. I miss the old 90pt Beastlords.

W/Standard of Discipline on my Bestigors (I'm really in love with this combo now) I effectively have a LD9 Wargor or GBS General. Bringing a lvl4 and lvl2 is a good investment for me, because it ups your magic defense and gives you an excellent shot at giving your lvl2 Transformation and still being able to spam Wildform. Aside from Pann's Pelt and maybe Hitchcock's 'The Birds', all of the spells are very handy. A lvl4 can cast several a turn with even an average dice roll.

Our shooting is non-existent, it's worthwhile putting in some more points to be more effective at another phase in the game other than cc.

Ramius4
05-08-2010, 05:23
Minos have light armour, so you still get a 5+ armour save from a shield, and you get the parry before getting frenzied, if you don't have a mino character in the unit.

I realize that, but in the post I was responding to he was going to put the Gorbull in with the unit; hence Frenzy. In which case, you're still better off with a 6+ armor save and taking the extra Strength 5 attack from additional hand weapons instead.

frisbee
05-08-2010, 05:30
My beastlord owns most other armies.
I really like the raiders and encourge you to keep at them.
I was disappointed in the harpies. They keep getting run off or killed in the first turn.
But my fav thing with my beastmen is when I put them on the table and people go, OH never seen them before. Famous last words on their part. (most of the time)

frisbee
06-08-2010, 01:25
How does a Beast player fight HE? I have a game tommorow at 2000 and have never seen the HE army. What is the best to take?

Gorak
06-08-2010, 03:13
need a bit more info, whats the points 1500,2000 ect. ? gors are a good core choice as majority of elf attacks are str3, if 2000 plus a brayshamn is a must as HE will most likely have a lvl 4 mage so thats +5 to dispell. Other than that I would need point lvl to give some more detailed info.

Seth the Dark
06-08-2010, 04:21
I might suggest the Chalice of Dark Rain as HE tend to have a fair amount of shooting.

frisbee
06-08-2010, 04:32
It is 2000 points. This is what I plan to take. Can't remember if we are allowed to post points or not.

Lord

BeastLord
HA / AX OF KHORGOR / GOUGE TUSK /


Great Bray shaman
dispell scroll/ chailce


Heroes

Wargor-
HA/ Shield/ BSB/ beast banner/ uncanny senses/ sword of might

Bray Shaman-
hunting spear/ level two



Minotars- 4x
Extra hand weapon/ bloodkine/ music/ sword of biting
Total:

Core

Raiders- 2x10 man groups- musicain

Gor- 32 beast- foe render/musician/standard/extra hand weapon

Gor- 30 Beast- foe render/musician/standard/ shield and hand weapon

Ungor- 20 spear with full command

Raiders- 5x man group with music

1999

lcfr
06-08-2010, 05:00
The question is can you fit in a great shamman with the DB? I know your not a fan of beastlords so the next choice is a shamman, +4 or 3 to cast and dispell is very nice...but if you local meta is magic light(which I highly doubt) than you may want to consider this.

Yep. I run my GBS pretty cheap w/just the lvl4 upgrade, AHW, and Chalice of Dark Rain. 623pts of Lords makes me feel like it's a top heavy list, but if a Doombull can pick up the slack left by my RnF minotaurs it's worthwhile.

I run a lvl2 as well to improve his odds of knowing Transformation - my beasts run just fine without it, but throwing 6 dice and going Greater Fire Dragon on an opponent is absolutely devastating. Even when the Transformation is dispelled in the enemy's turn, your opponent is losing out about 5PD (usually 6 - no one wants to throw 5 and fall just short) and will have a far less effective magic phase.

Gorak
06-08-2010, 06:13
very nice, I've yet to try turning into a dragon as I'm a huge fan of the buff spells but with 2 mages......scary

frisbee I would drop the champion on the minotaurs not worth the points IMHO. Second I run at least 4+ ward save on you Beastlord it's really easy to put a buttload of attacks on a character, you may also want to consider the helm of commandment as stubbron on the beast lord is just nasty.(and for far less points than our item.) Also same advice on the wargor bsb, killing is nice but you really want the bsb to survie more than one round of combat, I'd go with either talismen of preservation, armour of destiny or the troll hide for a 4+ ward or regenration. Scouting harpies are also nice if the HE player likes reapter boltthrowers.

frisbee
06-08-2010, 09:13
I have a question about the armour of destiny.
This comes out of the MRB correct?
But on pg 92 it says very clearly on what common magic items you can take.
So how do you get the Armour?

Chaos Undecided
06-08-2010, 11:02
All armies can take the common magic items listed in the Main Rule Book, however you still use the points values of those items that are listed in the common item list of your own army book where they exist in both lists. Its all explained on page 500 of the BRB.

Memnos
06-08-2010, 11:13
I'm wary of an army of mostly Gors. I look forward to hearing how it goes.

I tend to run 'Magic item light', with cheap Bray-shamans and a Shaman-lord to get the default spell off.

Have you considered chariots to add to your combat resolution, then running deep units of the Gor to minimize attacks back but still allow you to win combat by getting impact hits?

I assume that you're going to push the raiders to deal with his inevitable repeater bolt thrower spam. You know your opponent better than I, but have you considered that you can probably charge them by the time your Raiders show up? And your Raiders can't charge in the turn they do?

I have yet to find a good use for Raiders in the new edition. Everything else seems to do it better.

Chaos Undecided
06-08-2010, 11:55
They dont seem too bad as a screening unit to provide your herds with a cover modifier versus missile attacks and in themselves are more resilient to missile fire than the main alternative of Hounds thanks to their skirmish formation, only drawback would be their slow speed so hounds would probably be a better screen for units moving faster than the Ungor can.

They might even do some useful damage with their bows once in a while.

frisbee
06-08-2010, 14:16
On Pg 92 its says you can only take those common magic items listed in codex.

I have never played this guy. So i don't know his style or how comp. he is.
Only thing I know is 2000 pts and he has only played a hand full of games like the rest of us.

Gorak
06-08-2010, 15:36
@ that is incorrect all armies can take the magic items from the BRB.

frisbee
06-08-2010, 16:21
However, the pdf for beastmen stats nothing about taking all magic items from the mrb.

So, I will quote the Codex, pg 92 at the top,

"On the following pages are magic items available to beastmen armies. Beastmen may also choose items from the common magic items listed below; these are described fully in the warhammer rulebook."

Then goes on to list ten items. So how is it incorrect?

Not trying to be an **** just trying to understand on how you are working this.

decker_cky
06-08-2010, 16:49
That says they can take those common magic items, not that they can take only those common magic items. Permission is given by the BRB. These days, most of my magic items are from the BRB list. :S

Chaos Undecided
06-08-2010, 19:13
If you want to believe that GW would introduce a list of common magic items into their Rule Book that no army can use because they're not listed in the older army books and despite what the main rule book states thats up to you but frankly it has no relevance to this tactica. Feel free to start a thread in the rules or general forum if you want to "discuss" it.

Ramius4
06-08-2010, 21:39
BeastLord
HA / AX OF KHORGOR / GOUGE TUSK /

This is a sub-par build. Axe of Khorgor really only give him +1 Attack. He should already be re-rolling from Primal Fury, so it's just wasted extra points. You're better off giving him the Brass Cleaver, especially against Elves. Their small bases mean that he should be getting +3 Attacks pretty much all the time.

Wargor-
HA/ Shield/ BSB/ beast banner/ uncanny senses/ sword of might

This is an illegal character. You cannot have a magic banner and still get another magic item. You're better off sticking with a simple Great Weapon vs. Elves. They're going to hit you first anyways. Hit them back harder. Oh, and get this guy Gnarled Hide! Your BSB doesn't help if he's dead.

The only way I'd give him the Beast Banner is if you're planning on having him in the Gor or Ungor units. Minotaurs don't need it. They already wound Elves on 2's. Otherwise spend those 75 points on something more useful. The Gorbull really doesn't need a magic banner. All he needs to do is survive and hit things repeatedly.

Minotars- 4x
Extra hand weapon/ bloodkine/ music/ sword of biting
Total:

Screw the Biting Blade... Want a nasty trick? Get the Bloodkine "the other trickster's shard" out of the BRB common items. It will turn your Minotaurs into Phoenix Guard murderers, and gives you an opportunity to go after characters without fear of them having a good ward save.


The rest is alright.

frisbee
06-08-2010, 22:40
Got done playing a freindly game with him. Owned the magic phase got both the purple sun and the transformation into the MT Chimera in the first two turns. Forgot about the bsb rule with magic items. He never came up. So no hand to hand until the 6th turn.
Draw. He had only three shooty things. 1 archers 2 boltthrowers. Real friendly game. Guess I get some more points to play with.

Arnizipal
07-08-2010, 23:57
I just moved some army lists to their own separate threads here (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=270656) and here (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=270658).
Remember folks, army lists go in the Army Lists forum (http://www.warseer.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=37).

Arnizipal,

++ The Warseer Moderation Team ++

ftayl5
08-08-2010, 04:19
So what do people think about Gors now? 2 Hand Weapons? Or a shield. 6+ Ward Save could come in handy but so could a few extra attacks so I'm undecided on which (if any) is better.

sulla
08-08-2010, 05:37
So what do people think about Gors now? 2 Hand Weapons? Or a shield. 6+ Ward Save could come in handy but so could a few extra attacks so I'm undecided on which (if any) is better.If you're planning on buffing them with beasts #1 or the beast banner, extra hand weapons are the best. For ambushers, either option is ok. Generally, I like the extra offensive potential although the shields do look nice.

mrtn
08-08-2010, 11:25
I don't think it matters that much anymore. It depends on your foe I suppose, since the shields are less effective against S4 hth, and worthless against S4 shooting. But then on the other hand the XHW isn't effective in the back ranks, while the shield is.

frisbee
09-08-2010, 17:46
I am getting ready for ard boys. Thinking about using Bestigor herd? Which buildout have you had the greatest wins with?

Gorak
10-08-2010, 00:44
what pts is ard boyz now? In 2000pts for bestigors I run them 5x4 with a beastlord with crown of command,Armour of Destiny,scaly skin gift and extra hand weapon. They have worked great, against T armies you can buff them with +1str and T so they are harded to wound and *if* you lose combat you have ld9 stubbron.

lcfr
10-08-2010, 02:37
I like the Crown of Command combo, but I'm going to start trying out a Beastlord w/Talisman of Preservation, Pelt of the Shadowgave, & Biting Blade instead of Crown of Command/Sword of Might...being Stubborn is nice, but I think it's a little bit more situational than the Pelt...which not only improves the odds of your opponent failing to cast, but also improves your own odds of dispelling.

Gorak
10-08-2010, 08:00
I'd go without the biting blade, as 45+45=90 save the 10pts go with extra hand weapon for killy or shield for defence.

Odlox
10-08-2010, 14:11
I am getting ready for ard boys. Thinking about using Bestigor herd? Which buildout have you had the greatest wins with?

I find Bestigors to be a no brainer in 2k+ all comers lists. Because they can get flaming attacks with the banner of Eternal Flame. A solid block is a very good Hydra/Vhargulf/Treeman/etc killer.

Take 30 in a 3k pts game. Go 5 wide if fighting monsters or very killy infantry (swordmasters/chaos warriors), 6 wide if fighting blocks of infantry or cavalry.

Palantir
10-08-2010, 23:25
Anyone tried a flying Doombull?

Give him the ASF sword, Uncanny senses, shadow-hide, charmed shield and hvy armor. Buy a unit of harpies and place him behind them. He now has hard cover from the harpies and an extra -1 to hit from shadow-hide. Use the chalice first turn. He's now at -4 to hit.

The charmed shield can negate the first cannonball. He can survive the next with some luck, with his 5 wounds.

The ultimate war-machine hunter? He can also take care of wizards with ease. ASF and I6 often gives rerolls to hit. Should be a very very useful guy to have on the table.

Mordante
11-08-2010, 07:50
So is nobody using ungor raiders anymore? I built 20 of them for the last edition, but I'm now thinking of switching their arms out to spears and shields. They were decent before, but do not seem as good anymore.

lordlorien
11-08-2010, 08:19
I do not like Ungor Raiders too much atm. They hit scarcly and when they actually do hit, they tend not to wound. Only reason I see to field em is as cheap cover units with ambush mirrors to engage enemy warmachines early in the game hopefully and if not destroying them to bind em up in combat for a round or two.

Still waiting to be tested is 9 Ungor Raiders with Shaman for Look out Sir without endangering a unit to be blown up by miscasts. Probably on a Shadow Shaman of Doom with Power Scroll or something like it.

Satan
11-08-2010, 08:34
I find that a unit of Raiders costs about as much as a Razorgor. And I know which one I prefer out of those two.

They might be useful against human or elven war machines though.

Ramius4
11-08-2010, 15:21
So is nobody using ungor raiders anymore? I built 20 of them for the last edition, but I'm now thinking of switching their arms out to spears and shields. They were decent before, but do not seem as good anymore.

I find them just as useful as before. I always keep duplicate units in ambush as you can generally arrive in a useful enough position. It's no big loss if the enemy is killing off a unit of 5 to 10 of them and many opponents won't bother reforming to face them in the first place.

120 points for four units of harrassment troops just ain't bad.

lcfr
11-08-2010, 16:27
It's no big loss if the enemy is killing off a unit of 5 to 10 of them and many opponents won't bother reforming to face them in the first place.

120 points for four units of harrassment troops just ain't bad.

But if you think about it, it is a big loss! It's damn hard to get VPs, 120pts of 'harassment' (I would call it 'throw away'...most others who run them as screens would agree) just does not pay off. If you want to hunt warmachines, run Scouts. If you want to harass the enemy with a chance of actually killing them in the shooting phase or cc, run Centigors w/throwing axes...I just don't think raiders have a place in 8th.

decker_cky
11-08-2010, 22:34
I've found that my 120pts of throwaway always either protects a more expensive unit from getting an unfavorable matchup, or gives me a favorable matchup which nets me more points.

Ramius4
12-08-2010, 03:20
I've found that my 120pts of throwaway always either protects a more expensive unit from getting an unfavorable matchup, or gives me a favorable matchup which nets me more points.

Exactly. I find Icfr's assessment to be quite flawed. It's all in how you use them. If you're running 5 man units as 'screens' then of course you're going to throw points away.

But out of those 5 man units, I can have two of them hang back between the lines, taking a few shots here and there. The other two in ambush can generally stay far enough away or out of line of sight when they arrive. Deploying them in such a way that you are presenting the enemy with a bigger threat so that they're left alone is usually a simple matter.

And keep in mind, to net those 120 victory points, they've got to wipe out 4 separate units. No, they're not tough, but if your opponent really wants to spend the effort of wiping them out, that's time spent not focusing on your better units.

Gorak
12-08-2010, 06:37
I like raiders, I run 2 nuits of 6 in 2k for an extra warmachine hunter to go along with my harpies! I large points value I may even add two more units for the same reason, bs3isn't bad most armies out there are bs3.

Halelel
12-08-2010, 07:56
How are people finding bestigors vs. minotaurs in 8th? Offhand, it would seem that a large unit of bestigors would be better than a 6 man unit of minotaurs.

While looking rather "dull" on the board, would it be viable to run primarily gors / ungors / bestigors blocks with the usual lords/heroes? I have tons of old metal bestigors of various chaos flavors, would be nice if they were actually worthwhile in 8th. I don't have much experience with Beastmen as I'm gathering the old models out of storage for a friend who has an interest in starting the army.

Scactha
12-08-2010, 10:26
Bestigors are fantastic. They are one of the few infantry units that really can kill stuff. Give them the banner of Discipline and let them escort your GBS. There you a have lvl 4 magic and still Beastlord level Leadership. Synergy in motion. Toss in a Lvl 2 Shaman in the army and you are almost guaranteed to get the transformation on the GBS. As he has the same footprint when transformed he can happily wander along these guys.

Raiders are also great. Run and shoot makes wonders for controlling flanks, harassing fast cavalry and killing war machines. In a pitch they can sacrifice themselves for a turn of diversion. Lovely versatility.

mrtn
12-08-2010, 11:18
How are people finding bestigors vs. minotaurs in 8th? Offhand, it would seem that a large unit of bestigors would be better than a 6 man unit of minotaurs.

While looking rather "dull" on the board, would it be viable to run primarily gors / ungors / bestigors blocks with the usual lords/heroes? I have tons of old metal bestigors of various chaos flavors, would be nice if they were actually worthwhile in 8th. I don't have much experience with Beastmen as I'm gathering the old models out of storage for a friend who has an interest in starting the army.
They're certainly viable. :)

immortal git
12-08-2010, 13:55
ide be really tempted by khazrak, horde formation, ten strength five attacks with hatred then he has a 2+ save?