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djkest
16-06-2010, 18:47
Given that miscasts are more potent than ever before, I'm wondering about the viability of an anti-magic WoC list.

The primary mechanic would be the use of 2-3 Hellcannons. The unique feature of the hellcannon is that when it misfires it causes all wizards on the table to roll on the miscast table. (at least that is how I remember the rule). The hellcannon itself is probably a little better because no guessing and no partials. At 200 points it's way too expensive but this could get interesting.

Of course you would need at least a sorceror or 2 of your own so you could take the black tongue and (especially) the infernal puppet. Forcing miscasts on your opponents and then modifying the rolls to their doom could be quite interesting.

Now against dwarves or a purely defensive magic using army, you would be at quite the disadvantage. However against VC or a list that has a sorc lord as a general you could really make people cry.

nick_robinsonchia
16-06-2010, 19:17
Yup I went through the same reasoning myself. However I wouldn't bother with the mages it's too much of a disadvantage if against non magic armies. -1ld banner could help out the hellcannons panicing most things on a -2.

theSkullduggery1
16-06-2010, 19:38
When a hellcannon misfires you roll a D6 and there are 6 different results that could occur. So yes, making a magic heavy opponent roll on the miscast table would be deadly, but there are other options too.

Also the Hellcannon is pretty scary in close combat too, so 205 points may not actually be all that expensive for its versatility. One thing that I'm curious about is that since a Hellcannon fires like a stone thrower, is the strength of the shots going to be reduced to that of stone throwers under the new rules.

teleologica
16-06-2010, 19:53
@ theskullduggery - No, because the Army Book specifically states that the S is 5(10) as an exception to the normal stone thrower rules.

@ OP - Hellcannons are pretty cool, but not necessarily a hugely points-effective option now. With no guess-ranges in 8th they will gain a boost, but still suffer slightly from their innate vulnerabilities. In no particular order, these are Rampage; low Ld once the crew are dead; squishy crew; and above all, it's not a very good war machine for 205 pts, nor is it a very good monster for 205 pts. You're paying for versatility, but getting a model which isn't very good at either of its' nominal roles. Jack of all trades but master of none.

Also, you can't rely on the Hellcannon-induced miscast. Only 1/36 chance per shot meaning you won't get it in most games even if both shoot every turn. MR, scrolls including some of the funky new scrolls, and Tongue Puppet combo are the way to go for magic defence.

Agnar the Howler
16-06-2010, 20:00
Rampage is far from a vulnerability, look at a Hellcannon's stats and then look at the description, you're getting a free 3D6" move towards the nearest enemy with a huge monster machine of doom that is equally good (if not better) at combat than it is at shooting.

Hellcannons can lock down whole flanks on their own, and unlike bolt throwers or cannons, you can't simply just run some fast cavalry in to disable the crew/machine/both, as it's more than likely that they'll get eaten by the cannon. It's a matter of how much you're willing to pour into taking the cannon down, as dedicated monster-hunting units are the only way of disabling it, which means that your opponent could be pouring more points into killing it than it was originally worth, plus it's more stuff that isn't attacking your main army.

nick_robinsonchia
16-06-2010, 20:14
Personally I love twin hellcannons in 8th. They offer tactical nuances to the warriors list that are not available in any other choice. The threat of 2 str 5/10 no partials templates can really mess with ur opponents psychology. I find that often they won't clump up to overwhelm ur warriors and that if they ignorethem they will take a pounding reducing rank bonus etc. Further to that they need something alot more serious to silence them than other warmachines. Light warmachine hunters get munched. For me I keep my lvl 2 sorc general reasonably close in case they do get crewless. The bsb reroll will pretty much ensure first turn shots.

I think they are about 30-40 points overcosted (maybe not if u look at internal balance)but I wouldn't leave them at home again.

N

Voss
16-06-2010, 21:33
Keep in mind that the exceptional stonethrowers- hellcannons and trebuchets- may get smacked when the army-specific errata/updates roll in.

teleologica
16-06-2010, 21:41
I think they are about 30-40 points overcosted (maybe not if u look at internal balance)

That's pretty much where I am with them. They're not actually bad, and in the occasional game will be fantastically useful either in unbreakably tying something up, shooting and squishing a Slann or the like flat, or eating through an army from one flank to the other. Those things do happen - just less often than it gribbling around where you don't want it, or misfiring and eating its own crew, or just generally not making its points back

@ Agnar - you'll note that I didn't say they were bad, and they can indeed do everything you say. There are just more points-effective ways of doing it (if you want to be competitive rather than just fielding things you think are cool :) which is ofc completely valid). Only exception to that is, obviously, as a stone thrower, and 205 pts just seems too much for me. Having said that, I did also say that under 8th its abilities as a warmachine may improve sufficiently to bring it into competitive territory.

Also - Rampage, not a drawback? We may have to agree to disagree there.

[Edit - Voss, agreed. And also, love your sig.]

nick_robinsonchia
16-06-2010, 21:50
Keep in mind that the exceptional stonethrowers- hellcannons and trebuchets- may get smacked when the army-specific errata/updates roll in.

Agreed. I REALLY hope they dont take it down a pip of strength. Surely they recognized it was overcosted somewhat to begin with. Strength 4 could change my outlook on them :(

Harwammer
17-06-2010, 10:19
The squish crew is less of a worry now anyway; one of the biggest problems with the hell cannon in 7th was that it was an easy 100 VPs for the enemy; 3 dwarfs are not hard to kill.

With the new VP system the hell cannon itself needs to be killed too in order for the enemy to score any points out of it. Taking a hell cannon is no longer a 102.5 vp gimmie to the opponent.

LordoftheBrassThrone
17-06-2010, 10:45
Firstly, just gotta say... OMG ITS A CHAOS WARRIOR WITH A CHRISTMAS HAT!!! And now that I've got that out of the way....

I think hellcannons will get a lot better with the new rules. I play the refused flank- deploy hellcannon first, then hounds, marauder horsemen etc. I often manage to get at least 1 decent enemy unit on that flank.
And then of course by the time the enemy gets too close to your troops to risk firing the hellcannon, its not wasted because by this time the enemy unit has made it to your hellcannon.. munch munch :)

Harwammer
17-06-2010, 17:18
^ thanks

Handlers act as a few wound tokens that ranged damage can randomise onto making the hell cannon that bit tougher. The downside is a monster reaction test is now required when the dwarfs die.

I hope the cannon can still use the dwarfs leadership for rampage restraint tests!

Sabe
17-06-2010, 19:08
I'm very interested to see what they do with the hellcannon in regards to the new warmachine rules. According to rumors, when shooting at a warmachine you ALWAYS use the warmachines stats for determining damage, and you ALWAYS use the crews stats when determining damage in Combat. This would be very awkward with the Hellcannon so I wonder if it won't have a variation of this set up instead.

madden
17-06-2010, 19:16
Hellcannons are dead to normal cannons now as you just place a marker for range then art dice bounce the hc doesn't get a ward so ouch time, but i'll still take mine the psyc impact is huge.

Cartoon
17-06-2010, 19:30
True but if they're firing on your cannon they're not firing on your other expensive chaos warriors/chosen/knights ect. It's a tough enough target that it should last for a round or two of shooting, giving your other units time to close the gap and get into cc.

Harwammer
17-06-2010, 20:11
Hellcannons are dead to normal cannons now as you just place a marker for range then art dice bounce the hc doesn't get a ward so ouch time, but i'll still take mine the psyc impact is huge.

This raises an important question; can monster + handler units use its 'handler save' against war machines and if so does this occur before or after wound multiplication?


Also have cannons (regular ones, not hell cannons) lost their first 'range finding' roll that happens before the bounce roll? If so they have become much superior to what they previously were.

madden
17-06-2010, 21:18
No they still have the fist ranging roll then bounce but no guesses anymore.