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TroyJPerez
16-06-2010, 19:07
With Vampire counts and I guess tomb kings (but who plays that army? lol) now having access to items and massive ranks that will give them stubborn, any predictions on how this will effect the army that crumbles but does not break?

twistinthunder
16-06-2010, 19:23
Nothing, undead units don't break anyway if they lose combat they take wounds equal to how much they lost combat by.

e.g. unit loses combat by 3, so takes 3 wounds.

Toads77
16-06-2010, 20:12
I would think the point for undead to have more ranks then your opponent would be to deny them steadfast, since stubborn undead means very little.

Magic Karl
16-06-2010, 20:23
stubborn undead means very little.

Stubborn means nothing to a being with no free will...

Malorian
16-06-2010, 20:28
Steadfast (stubborn from ranks) will be more of a problem for VC than help.

Big hordes will not only be stubborn but will pump out a lot of attacks which will crumble us even faster.

The only way I see to counter this is to go horde ourselves and add combat characters to give us a fighting chance.

(Hordes with the regen banner will be insane if the opponent doesn't have flaming attacks.)

vega528
17-06-2010, 03:38
actually I've been thinking that horde is not the way to go for undead. Skellies suck in combat if you have 10 attacks or 30 attacks, so if you stay 5 wide but lots of ranks you deny your opponent both steadfast and attacks if they go horde against you. Then while your opponent is stuck in combat flank them with something like a varghulf or black knights to cause more wounds and protect them from attacks since someone doesn't getting supporting to the flanks or rear.

Ethos
17-06-2010, 19:35
The current rule for break tests:

leadership - combat resolution modifiers = Value A. One must then roll equal to or under Value A to keep fighting.

Daemons switch up things a bit. Theirs is as follows.

dice roll + combat resolution modifiers = Value A. Then, subtract leadership from Value A, and that equals wounds.


Both Daemonic and other stubborn units simply remove the combat resolution modifiers from the equation, resulting in a "roll the dice and hope that it's equal to or less than your leadership" state of mind.

For the Undead, I would only assume that it would only be the same. If on one hand we had lost by 3 (and therefore lost 3 wounds), then on the other hand - if stubborn - we would lose by 0, and therefore lose no wounds.

------

Stubborn would be crucial for us. It would remove crumbling altogether.

gdsora
17-06-2010, 19:39
The current rule for break tests:

leadership - combat resolution modifiers = Value A. One must then roll equal to or under Value A to keep fighting.

Daemons switch up things a bit. Theirs is as follows.

dice roll + combat resolution modifiers = Value A. Then, subtract leadership from Value A, and that equals wounds.


Both Daemonic and other stubborn units simply remove the combat resolution modifiers from the equation, resulting in a "roll the dice and hope that it's equal to or less than your leadership" state of mind.

For the Undead, I would only assume that it would only be the same. If on one hand we had lost by 3 (and therefore lost 3 wounds), then on the other hand - if stubborn - we would lose by 0, and therefore lose no wounds.

------

Stubborn would be crucial for us. It would remove crumbling altogether.

we still crumble from losing combat, stubborn is a rule for break tests, undead dont take those, instead we crumble...

CaliforniaGamer
17-06-2010, 19:39
My thoughts are they will errata the "Crumble" special rule to result in no additional casualties when "Steadfast" undead lose combat.

I would bet money on it actually.

twistinthunder
17-06-2010, 19:51
i wouldn't because there no need to change it.

fall3nang3l
17-06-2010, 19:53
my plan to deal with hordes is this. you need +1 rank to get steadfast, if you run 5 wide and 4 deep. the opponent needs to run 10 wide and 5 deep to gain steadfast. not going to see many 50 large units I bet. and if they are 50, as soon as they lost 1 model. its not a full rank.

gdsora
17-06-2010, 19:55
i wouldn't because there no need to change it.

Considering (at least to me)
TK have to pay 8 points for a unarmored skeleton, that no longer auto breaks?

With Fighting in Initiative order, multiple ranks.
Skeletons have become one of the least effective units in the game

There better be some changes

Hakkapelli
17-06-2010, 20:06
Remember that ranks are now counted after removing casualties. That means that you have to have as many ranks as the enemy after recieving 22+ attacks in the face, and swinging back with 11. You also have to win the combat or loosing stubborn won't have any effect on the enemy.

TroyJPerez
17-06-2010, 20:42
I think with the loss of fear autobreaking and battle standards allowing you to reroll all leadership tests, undead could use a boost. I think they should not crumble if stubborn. I mean they are too stubborn to die from being smashed up, lol.

anthioram
17-06-2010, 20:48
sadly, the errata is only to change things like "miscast==>loss control", aparently they are not balancing stuff which means crumbling won't change, thus zombies and skellyes get a big hit....

It encourage the use of ghouls, which shouldnt be a main unit in any undead army....