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Paraelix
16-06-2010, 22:04
So with the drastic changes to the Magic mechanics... Is it viable to play a no magic army? (Excluding Dwarves)

DigitalDogParty
16-06-2010, 22:08
My question is, what's going to happen with armies that have their own magic? For instance, Skaven. If the Lores and such are going up in casting value, then what are they going to do for Skaven's magic? I've heard from multiple people that there are no army errata's as rumored, and I've seen a video that goes through the book and its contents.


As for your question, I will obviously use magic my first game but if it turns out iffy, then I might skip that.

King_Pash
16-06-2010, 22:08
I think so. At least, more viable than currently. I'll certainly be trying it out. Still, if you face some of those UBER spells it might be nice to have a caddy. Plus, since everyone can cast with up to 6 dice, that caddy can actually be quite useful. :)

dragonet111
16-06-2010, 22:09
I don't know I would say yes since you have more dispel dice without mage and the power dice are limited (Unless I miss the update on that rumor:D).

Vsurma
16-06-2010, 22:10
Not taking a wizard or 2 seems foolish.

Heck take a cheap lv2, maybe another lv1.

You get more PD than the enemy gets DD so throw lots of dice at the spells and get then through.

The magic dice are free, why not use them.
Also you will probably want that dispel scroll more than ever.

I see no reason not to take at least a lv2 and a lv1.

Without a lv2 your handing the magic phase over to the opponent. Sure you still get a bunch of dispel dice, but with your opponent likely adding 4 to his casting roll, all those casts will be high. You will need to roll 3 dice to dispel a spell he spends 1 dice to cast.

Without mages you basically get to dispel 1 spell a turn, and not the one the opponent wants to actually get through, that one you cannot dispel since he has more PD than you have DD.

Take the wizard, take the dispel scroll = be happy

Lord Inquisitor
16-06-2010, 22:11
I think it might be more possible but I'd be bringing along at least one token mage to get that bonus to dispel dice and as Vsurma says, those power dice will just be going to waste...

Vsurma
16-06-2010, 22:15
My question is, what's going to happen with armies that have their own magic? For instance, Skaven. If the Lores and such are going up in casting value, then what are they going to do for Skaven's magic? I've heard from multiple people that there are no army errata's as rumored, and I've seen a video that goes through the book and its contents.


As for your question, I will obviously use magic my first game but if it turns out iffy, then I might skip that.

Where is this video?

Malorian
16-06-2010, 22:17
I think you can get away with it, but at the same time everyone might as well come along for the fun and take a wizard.

nick_robinsonchia
16-06-2010, 22:23
Not taking a wizard or 2 seems foolish.

Heck take a cheap lv2, maybe another lv1.

You get more PD than the enemy gets DD so throw lots of dice at the spells and get then through.

The magic dice are free, why not use them.
Also you will probably want that dispel scroll more than ever.

I see no reason not to take at least a lv2 and a lv1.

Without a lv2 your handing the magic phase over to the opponent. Sure you still get a bunch of dispel dice, but with your opponent likely adding 4 to his casting roll, all those casts will be high. You will need to roll 3 dice to dispel a spell he spends 1 dice to cast.

Without mages you basically get to dispel 1 spell a turn, and not the one the opponent wants to actually get through, that one you cannot dispel since he has more PD than you have DD.

Take the wizard, take the dispel scroll = be happy

This. I guess the lvl 1 is there to have 3 spells to cast? My typical set up will be

(WoC)Sorceror, Lvl 2, Dispel Scroll, Spell familiar, enchanted Shield. Conj Homonc.

All for the low low price of 185p (well forchaos...)

3 spells a phase go off on average, with the homonc to bump one up if needed.

Decent dispelling before the mage hunters do their work.

Good times.

DigitalDogParty
16-06-2010, 22:25
Where is this video?


I wish I could tell you but I don't recall where I saw it. I was at a friend's house the other day and saw it on his computer for a minute or two. Where exactly...don't remember.

RanaldLoec
16-06-2010, 22:26
I think a balance has been struck with the new magic with a level 4 and a level 2 you will have all the spells from 1 lore. So no spamming lizard men comet armys as only 1 wizard can have the comet of cassandora, the only spell that can be repeated is the basic spell.

So you get the spells you want but building an army around one lore or spell is no longer really that viable using the new lores.

I do wonder how only having 1 of every spell will effect army's that can only acces 1 spell chart eg orcs, ogres.

As with two or three wizards and thats all the spells from the one magic lore. any more wizards and your just getting the basic spell over and over again.

Where armys that can access the lores in the new book just pick wizards from different lores.

Vsurma
16-06-2010, 22:27
Well I was thinking more along the lines of "if you have 1 mage" the enemy will kill it, or it will miscast and die, or it will roll a natural 2 or 3 and end the phase with lots of dice unused.

I don't see a reason to take less than a lv2 and a lv1, anything more than that is for people who actually like magic.

Also with 2 mages you can take 2 items, dispel scroll on 1 and one of those funky new scrolls for the other. (turn enemy into frog scroll or kill many PD using enemy mage scroll etc)

Xarius
16-06-2010, 22:29
I think it all depends on race. Counts obviously need one, empire less so.

Tenken
16-06-2010, 22:31
You could play with no wizards, the real question though is; why would you want to? The new BRB lores are so freaking awesome, it just seems crazy NOT to take a wizard. For all the other armies with their book lores you'll be casting your best spells on 2 dice with a level 4 wizard. Other than dwarves I don't see a reason not to take a wizard. I feel kinda bad for the stunties. They miss out on all the new fun stuff for more of the same old dwarf shenanigans.

nick_robinsonchia
16-06-2010, 22:36
Well I was thinking more along the lines of "if you have 1 mage" the enemy will kill it, or it will miscast and die, or it will roll a natural 2 or 3 and end the phase with lots of dice unused.

I don't see a reason to take less than a lv2 and a lv1, anything more than that is for people who actually like magic.

Also with 2 mages you can take 2 items, dispel scroll on 1 and one of those funky new scrolls for the other. (turn enemy into frog scroll or kill many PD using enemy mage scroll etc)

AH gotcha. Im basically coming from a WoC viewpoint at this point admitedly. WS 5 T4 0+/2+ save character is harder for suicide hunters to get too. And they cost more point wise. Got ur line of thought tho. Dispel scrolls are limited to one per army?

N

Vsurma
16-06-2010, 22:38
Yea 1 dispel scroll.

There are other scrolls though.

The lore of death is still bad, no matter how tough your mage. Also remember that you might not want to put your mages on horses anymore with the loss of look our sir rolls in infantry units, though I suppose WOC have the disc.

nick_robinsonchia
16-06-2010, 22:43
Yea 1 dispel scroll.

There are other scrolls though.

The lore of death is still bad, no matter how tough your mage. Also remember that you might not want to put your mages on horses anymore with the loss of look our sir rolls in infantry units, though I suppose WOC have the disc.

Yup i have the full list of items, just wasnt sure on the DS ruling.

Honestly I really have no idea what im going to do with my mage. The miscast table is Nasty nasty nasty and i dont particularly want the str 10 pie plate anywhere near my expensive warriors or brittle marauders. I guess alot will depend on who im facing but maybe withn 3" of a unit on foot. Time will tell. Yeah death looks pretty great and will likely be what i take as that basic spell is killer.

N

RanaldLoec
16-06-2010, 22:49
For your expensive chaos mages what about a cheap escort of mauraders!!! Mark of slaanesh immune to panic, or mark of nurgle difficult to hit and you get your look out sir rule.

Gee my spelling is getting worse

nick_robinsonchia
16-06-2010, 22:51
Heh i actually posted that a few threads down! I dont play slaanesh tho and for a lvl2 mage it jsut adds to the cost of him. For a lvl 4 absolutely.


For your expensive choas mages what about a cheap escort of mauraders!!! Mark of slaanesh immune to panic, or mark of nurgle difficult to hit and you get your look out sir rule.

RanaldLoec
16-06-2010, 22:57
Yeah I don't play or own any chaos I just face warriors quite often so ive learned some of the more comman tricks like a long line of mauarders immune to panic covaering the rest of the chaos line from my empire shooty goodness any way I detract.

I'm definatley going to be fielding a least a single lvl2 more likely 2 lvl 2's and an arch lector or priest.

RanaldLoec
16-06-2010, 22:59
My wood elve glamour weaves and tree singers I just don't know what is going to happen with them until I can understand how the army will play in 8th as I can see it being a big change for the forest dwellers of Loren

Tae
16-06-2010, 23:09
Is it possible? Certainly. All it takes is a couple of utterly crap rolls at generating power dice for a couple of turns and any combat based army is going to roll over a magic based one.

However that being said, I don't see it as being either likely or easy. So I'm personally still bringing one mage to the party, with the frog scroll. Because honestly, what's not amusing about turning a Lord of Change into a 5 wound frog?

Vsurma
16-06-2010, 23:15
Yea because saving the 100pts your opponent is spending on his magic phase will give you such an advantage in combat... Meanwhile his 1 mage is giving his units +1 attack and +1 strength... That and healing his characters or killing yours.

Lord Inquisitor
16-06-2010, 23:35
However that being said, I don't see it as being either likely or easy. So I'm personally still bringing one mage to the party, with the frog scroll. Because honestly, what's not amusing about turning a Lord of Change into a 5 wound frog?

Turning a Slaan Mage Priest into a large frog? No, wait...

Paraelix
16-06-2010, 23:44
Honestly... I'm suprised everyone is suggesting multiple low levels and not single Lvl3s or 4s >_>

Also, is everyone missing the part about the wizard resisting frog-ness? He only has to roll under his caster lvl.

EDIT- Also, I'm asking this from the point of view of planning a WoC army with models I have available... Also thinking marked wizards aren't gonna be as good as fire/shadow/metal ones.

Ghazbad_Facestompa
16-06-2010, 23:45
While I could go without mages, that means Mork's Spirit Totem would be more necessary. I'd rather like to use the automatic 2+ armor on my BSB instead, which can be more feasible now.

RanaldLoec
16-06-2010, 23:56
Honestly... I'm suprised everyone is suggesting multiple low levels and not single Lvl3s or 4s >_>

Also, is everyone missing the part about the wizard resisting frog-ness? He only has to roll under his caster lvl.

EDIT- Also, I'm asking this from the point of view of planning a WoC army with models I have available... Also thinking marked wizards aren't gonna be as good as fire/shadow/metal ones.


I think its the eggs all in one basket syndrome with 1 lvl 3 or 4 that one bad miscast will render him or her usless or worse dead taking a few lvl 1 and 2's spreads the risk I have lost a wizard to a failed panic / terror test before just because I rolled 10, 11 or 12.

With a couple of magic users one bad dice roll isn't going to cripple my magic ability completely. In lager games say 2500 then I start to think lvl 3 or 4.

Paraelix
17-06-2010, 00:15
But still +4 to cast... +4 to dispel...

madden
17-06-2010, 00:21
I'll just take my black coach and corpse carts to eat power dice and adjust there rolls as any caster who missfires in a unit is going to hurt it badly remember no partials from templates anymore lol.

Mudkip
17-06-2010, 00:24
I can't imagine why you wouldn't purchase at least one naked level 2, most of them only cost around 100 points and give you a whole new phase of the game to play with in addition to their importance for dispelling attempts. Without a wizard to add their power level to dispel rolls you'll be getting rolled by game-changing spells. There's nothing you can buy for around a 100 points that will make up for what you're sacrificing.

nick_robinsonchia
17-06-2010, 00:46
Honestly... I'm suprised everyone is suggesting multiple low levels and not single Lvl3s or 4s >_>

Also, is everyone missing the part about the wizard resisting frog-ness? He only has to roll under his caster lvl.

EDIT- Also, I'm asking this from the point of view of planning a WoC army with models I have available... Also thinking marked wizards aren't gonna be as good as fire/shadow/metal ones.

I thought we were discussing 'old school' caddy vs no wizard. Just debating the perks that a lvl 2 has over nothing at all.

Level 3/4 are just better all around. Saying that they are higher risk higher reward if you dont ahve a second caster (somehthng i was planning) If they dont change the race specific lores i feel you will be right - the new BRB lores rock. Saying that a tz wiz lord wth book of ashur will be effectively +6 to cast.... dispelling his spells are gonna be tough esp as you can maximise ur dice potential.

N

Agnar the Howler
17-06-2010, 01:12
My Tzeentch army has a self-imposed rule, that unless a Sorcerer Lord is the majority Lord choice in the army, there may be no greater number of non-wizards than there are wizards, so yes, there are going to be wizards in my WoC. My LM have to take a Slann in larger armies too, firstly to cooperate with my fluff, secondly because I doubt my army could sruvive much without one, Skink Priests will be dotted around as I see fit, probably one on an EotG too.

nick_robinsonchia
17-06-2010, 04:38
There was a rumor about holding dice over from different phases-did it make it into the BRB?

SatireSphere
17-06-2010, 04:48
I ran a level 4 and a level 2 in my first game with empire today and it worked pretty well.

I gave my level 4 the lore of metal and it worked pretty well, he was constantly reducing the armor of a big block of bretonnian knights.

decker_cky
17-06-2010, 06:43
But still +4 to cast... +4 to dispel...

While good....I think GW did a good job with the dispelling in particular. If you fail to dispel a spell, you can no longer dispel with that mage. Would you rather a good shot which you lose if you flub a roll (potentially letting through a bigger spell you had dice for) or a slightly worse spell, but insurance for the next spell after a flubbed attempt.

An extra channel attempt is nice too. As is choosing multiple lores, or multiples of a good basic lore (my beastmen will be doing this since lore of beast basic spell is great).

I'm actually kind of tempted to take a level 4 and a level 1, just for the extra basic spell.

I think you can get away without mages though. You can even take something like the bound fireball to throw your dice at during your turn.

ErictheGreen
17-06-2010, 07:56
i wanted to go magic heavy, but i only have 1 lore(little waaagh), which puts the mockers on for other spellcasters past another level 2.

the change to +4 to cast for a level 4 is awesome for a lore where the top spell only has a target of 10+.

i'll be going with a level 4, level 2 and 2 bound spells (3+ and 6+) on my fighting heroes.

Vsurma
17-06-2010, 08:28
I can't imagine why you wouldn't purchase at least one naked level 2, most of them only cost around 100 points and give you a whole new phase of the game to play with in addition to their importance for dispelling attempts. Without a wizard to add their power level to dispel rolls you'll be getting rolled by game-changing spells. There's nothing you can buy for around a 100 points that will make up for what you're sacrificing.

The scroll caddy is now a lv2 mage with a dispel scroll who can actually get a spell off each turn successfully!

NightAngel
17-06-2010, 19:14
I play TK so I don't have a choice in the matter. :D

Skyros
17-06-2010, 20:24
I can't imagine why you would ever not want to bring a wizard and take advantage of those free PD.

And, having one gives you +2 to all your dispell rolls.

RanaldLoec
17-06-2010, 20:45
Just moving the thread a little what about warrior priests for empire, prays cast like bound items so cast at a roll of 4 or more but wp and arch lectors dispel just on the roll of the dice as they have no level.

In a 2k empire list an arch lector, 1 lvl 2 scroll caddy, 1 lvl 2 with power stone and rod of power ( allows storage of 3 power or dispel dice to use next phase as power or dispel) it gave you 6 dispel dice, and 6 power 1 bound light spell and 2 prays.

It could give any magic heavy army a run for its money now the arch lector is well a bit pants in the magic phase.

Tae
17-06-2010, 22:05
Also, is everyone missing the part about the wizard resisting frog-ness? He only has to roll under his caster lvl.


I thought it was actually equal to or under his wizard level, but yes I am aware it requires a roll. But I'm not taking it for serioushammer, but more LOLhammer!

Mr_Foulscumm
17-06-2010, 22:40
WS 5 T4 0+/2+ save character is harder for suicide hunters to get too.
N

Armour saves are caped at +1 now so no more 0+ or those silly minus armour saves.

Im totally bringing a goblin and an orc shaman. This sounds like so much fun! :D

nick_robinsonchia
17-06-2010, 22:52
Armour saves are caped at +1 now so no more 0+ or those silly minus armour saves.

Im totally bringing a goblin and an orc shaman. This sounds like so much fun! :D

Oh wow didnt know that. Thats annoying.

Cheers

N

Idle Scholar
17-06-2010, 23:07
I'd imagine the extra 1 or 2 to dispel makes taking a caddie a wise choice. I mean yes magic is capped now but the new "devastating and unpredictable" BRB spells probably means you still can't ignore it.

I currently use 2 L1's in my 2000-2500 Skaven armies and they're both dual use (Warlock with Musket, Priest) with only one function being to dispel. I don't think I'll have to change that for 8th.

Gormereth, the Fearmonger
17-06-2010, 23:16
No, you need wizard or two as scroll caddy at least.

With the changes to the magic system-namely the super powered spells, the almost guarenteed deficiet of dispel dice to power dice, and adding caster's level-if your opponent fields a level 3 or 4 they are almost certain to get through at least one spell per magic phase that will ruin your whole day.

Your own wizard will not necessarily stop this from happening, but you can take the scrolls of "wound you on a 5+", "your minor spell I don't care about is now irresistable force & miscast", and yeh old "scroll du dispel" to slow down you're opponents magic a little (and maybe even punk out the wizard).

I guess the exception to this (where you could go wizardless) would be a situation where you fight an army like O&G who can only use "7th ed" spells, which are painful but mostly managable/tankable.

fall3nang3l
18-06-2010, 20:13
a wizard isnt required like it was in 7th but you get to add your wizards magic level to his dispel attempts, and if you have no wizard, you use your army to dispel it with no bonus.

Cartoon
18-06-2010, 20:27
The spells we've seen so far for this edition are simply to powerful to not take at least 1 or 2 lvl 2s. I think 2 lvl 2s will be common sight as with some of those spells getting just one or two off can be a game winner. Sure it has its risks but the rewards can be staggering if the spell goes off. Magic defense alone makes bringing a couple lvl 2s a very solid idea.

CrystalSphere
18-06-2010, 22:52
The cheapest magic defense i can think of for most armies would be a lv1 or 2 mage, with the dispel scroll (just one now) and another item that may be useful. I am not sure if the bonus to dispel from two lvl2 mages stack (i mean if with two lvl2 you would get +4 to dispel) but if it does then it may be a good option, but expensive.

Lord Solar Plexus
19-06-2010, 13:44
I don't think anyone's going to have much fun without a wizard - the opposition will shred his forces with ease, especially when they have brought a Lvl 4. I know that I won't field a list without one.

Lord Raneus
20-06-2010, 16:00
You could play with no wizards, the real question though is; why would you want to? The new BRB lores are so freaking awesome, it just seems crazy NOT to take a wizard. For all the other armies with their book lores you'll be casting your best spells on 2 dice with a level 4 wizard. Other than dwarves I don't see a reason not to take a wizard. I feel kinda bad for the stunties. They miss out on all the new fun stuff for more of the same old dwarf shenanigans.

Hey, I don't know about you, but I'm ok with my enemy blowing up their own infantry regiments at random. :D

Dwarves are great because you just don't have to worry about magic too much; it lets you focus on the rest of the game.

Kerill
20-06-2010, 17:43
I think it depends on the army. Horde armies don't need one really, elite armies will need magic defence. If you want to go low magic a level 2 with a dispel or frog scroll , maybe staff of sorcery should help avoid the worst.

Remember on average your opponent is only going to have 2 more PD than you have DD and the truly powerful spells, even with a level 4 are going to need 3-5 dice to cast.

O&G magic defense will be virtuallt impenetrable this edition- +3DD from the spirit totem and then basically 2 more (in fact better than 2 more) from the staff of sneaky stealing. Oh and they now have the most forgiving miscast chart ;)

Good news for O&G, about time they had a break.

Lord Solar Plexus
20-06-2010, 17:53
I think it depends on the army. Horde armies don't need one really, elite armies will need magic defence.


Why would that be so? Magic can hurt both equally badly. A horde might be able to take missile on the chin but what about parts of them being pushed back, others slowed down all the while one flank is rolled up by locally superior combat troops?

Kerill
20-06-2010, 20:31
Because a lot of the magic will not wipe out a unit of 60-100 anything quickly with only a few exceptions (i.e. the spells to save all your dice for). Having your goblins reduced to T1 or S1 isn't the end of the world since they are going to die in droves anyway.

Vsurma
21-06-2010, 11:40
Perhaps, but a cage of fire spell etc can stop a large unit of infantry a turn. I don't imagine your army is doing too well by turn 6 when you have 6 of your largest blocks not daring to move.

Everyone needs magic defence.