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lcfr
17-06-2010, 03:45
Hey all,

played my first game in 8th today (not with Tomb Kings), but didn't get to spend much time with the rulebook.

How do the new rules for bound spells affect TK incantations? Do TK still roll to generate PD for the purposes of dispelling RIP spells and the opponent's DD, or what? Are they required to set the power levels for each casting attempt and then take a stab at it with the generated PD (which would be rather bizarre).

Basically, does anyone know how the new magic rules interface - if they can be said to do so at all - with TK magic?

On a different note, could anyone comment on whether something like the Casket of Souls, for the purposes of army selection, counts as a hero or lord or a rare? Or both?

Commodus Leitdorf
17-06-2010, 04:10
In would imagine this will all be addressed when the FAQ/Errata comes out dealing with all the changes armybooks will go through with the new edition.

WarhammerNoob4ever
17-06-2010, 04:24
as of right now TK magic is a giant mess/joke

if i read the rules right, they would have to roll 2d6 (for a LP) to determine the "bound spell" level of the incantation, than roll 2d6 again to actually cast the incantation, with no pluses for caster level, as liche priests r not wizards (i checked and they only generate one dispel dice, HLP generate two)

so basically roll 2d6, get value, roll another 2d6 to see if u beat it and spell is casted but since they cant fail, it doesnt matter... and then the other team can dispel it with their dice, which are generate from the 2d6 the TK player rolls at the beginning of the game, bc TF still generate power dice, they just dont use them, which means the other army is dispelling with +2 or 4 if they have a wizard, meaning they extra own our magic phase.....

Atrahasis
17-06-2010, 08:59
You're reading it wrong. Incantations are cast like a bound spell with power level equal to the casting roll.

They work just like they always have.

The army is better off since it gets more power dice to dispel RiP, and can take more casters than they could in the past.

Despite the massive overhaul to the magic phase, the TK magic section is entirely compatible with it.

bluemage
18-06-2010, 23:17
For a liche priest is roll 2d6 to determine the bound level. Then use your power dice to try to equal or surpass that number in order to cast it. Its compatible with the new system but it won't be very powerful.

CaliforniaGamer
18-06-2010, 23:29
You're reading it wrong. Incantations are cast like a bound spell with power level equal to the casting roll.

They work just like they always have.

The army is better off since it gets more power dice to dispel RiP, and can take more casters than they could in the past.

Despite the massive overhaul to the magic phase, the TK magic section is entirely compatible with it.

Atrahasis, if Im understanding you correctly Incantations would work like:
1.) Begin magic phase, roll 2D6 as normal for the Winds of Magic
2.) Liche Priest uses his 1st incantation and rolls 2D6, that is the casting value (incantation automatically successful?) needed to be dispelled by his opponent who got the higher die of the 2D6 from step 1 as his DD.

OR
1.) roll 2D6
2.) LP goes to use his first incantation and after rolling 2D6, gets '7' for example as the power level of his bound spell.
3.) now with his power dice from step 1 needs to beat that '7' for the spell to be successful.

after reading the 8th ed rules carefully AND referring to TK book, I cant tell you which of these situations is correct and no GW employee Ive spoken with can tell me either.

This doesnt even brooch the other non-8th areas such as: are LP wizards? do they have a level? Are TKs wizards then too because they use incantations? What level is a TK? can any TK wizard channel?? It goes on and on.

lcfr
19-06-2010, 01:02
Atrahasis, if Im understanding you correctly Incantations would work like:
1.) Begin magic phase, roll 2D6 as normal for the Winds of Magic
2.) Liche Priest uses his 1st incantation and rolls 2D6, that is the casting value (incantation automatically successful?) needed to be dispelled by his opponent who got the higher die of the 2D6 from step 1 as his DD.

OR
1.) roll 2D6
2.) LP goes to use his first incantation and after rolling 2D6, gets '7' for example as the power level of his bound spell.
3.) now with his power dice from step 1 needs to beat that '7' for the spell to be successful.

after reading the 8th ed rules carefully AND referring to TK book, I cant tell you which of these situations is correct and no GW employee Ive spoken with can tell me either.

This doesnt even brooch the other non-8th areas such as: are LP wizards? do they have a level? Are TKs wizards then too because they use incantations? What level is a TK? can any TK wizard channel?? It goes on and on.

Unfortunately, I feel that both of the interpretations you've listed above can be supported and refuted by the new rules: fundamentally the problem is that the new rulebook was not written with TK Incantations in mind, and it's somewhat bizarre to try and find ways in which they interface and yet remain faithful to the basic rules.

I think that until the army erratas come out mid-July (or is this just an unconfirmed rumour?) TK players are probably best off going 1 of 2 routes:

1. if you play an army besides TK, shelve all your skellies. This sucks because as 'underpowered' as they are TK are great fun to play with, but personally I don't want to spend the next month until the erratas are released playing with what are effectively house rules.

2. if TK are your only army, agree on a common interpretation with your gaming group or opponent.

jamano
19-06-2010, 03:48
You're reading it wrong. Incantations are cast like a bound spell with power level equal to the casting roll.

They work just like they always have.

The army is better off since it gets more power dice to dispel RiP, and can take more casters than they could in the past.

Despite the massive overhaul to the magic phase, the TK magic section is entirely compatible with it.

but you need to use up power dice to cast bound spells now. so a high priest, tomb prince, and two liche priests would need 11 power dice to cast their incantations, any bound items aside. So with random 2d6 power dice you would rarely be able to cast all of your spells. Which is why they need an errata to clarify how TK magic works in 8th

Voss
19-06-2010, 04:00
Exactly. TK magic is completely non-functional until the errata. Its either ridiculously weak if you favor 'follow the 8th edition bound spell rule' interpretation, or its ridiculously powerful if favor the 'go solely by the army book rules' interpretation. (In that you can have a Lich King, Liche High Priest and 4 Liche Priests in a 2000 point army and get 8 spells off a turn at an average casting value of 3.5, 3.5, 7, 7, 7, 7, 10.5 and 10.5. Good luck dispelling that with d6 dispel dice, if you can even agree that the opponent gets those, given that it isn't clear if TK generate power dice, and therefor dispel dice, at all- and if they do, can they use those for bound magic items?)

Cordantheman
19-06-2010, 04:26
Exactly. TK magic is completely non-functional until the errata. Its either ridiculously weak if you favor 'follow the 8th edition bound spell rule' interpretation, or its ridiculously powerful if favor the 'go solely by the army book rules' interpretation. (In that you can have a Lich King, Liche High Priest and 4 Liche Priests in a 2000 point army and get 8 spells off a turn at an average casting value of 3.5, 3.5, 7, 7, 7, 7, 10.5 and 10.5. Good luck dispelling that with d6 dispel dice, if you can even agree that the opponent gets those, given that it isn't clear if TK generate power dice, and therefor dispel dice, at all- and if they do, can they use those for bound magic items?)

^ they may be competitive again :P

bluesystem
19-06-2010, 05:17
What about the line in the army book for Tomb Kings that says their spells are automatically cast unless dispelled? I feel like they are going to keep that idea going, and just tell people to ignore the reference to bound spells.

Tykinkuula
20-06-2010, 14:56
Consider how insanely dependant TK is of their incantations. If you take their reliable and overwhelming magic away, what do they have left? A bunch of Unbreakable, fear-causing paperbags with no ability to catch nor kill their enemy.
If they go by new rulebook, they become from one of the armies with lowest competivity THE army with THE lowest competetivity.
By going "armybook trumps", they are not insanely overpowered but rather brought to close to the level of new army books. Even so... no, they will be nowhere near to being the most powerful army there. Just finally competetive again.

*crosses fingers*

Marshal Augustine
20-06-2010, 16:30
I would argue that the army book over rules the rulebook. THe incantations are "like" bound spells. That are automatically cast.
Bing.

jamano
20-06-2010, 22:11
They are going to get a significant errata when the book comes out to make their magic work, no sense in making up rules till then.

Eumerin
21-06-2010, 20:51
I would argue that the army book over rules the rulebook. THe incantations are "like" bound spells. That are automatically cast.
Bing.

You still have to figure out which method you're going to use to generate dice with.

There are plenty of options for jury-rigging a system, so with your opponent's agreement you should still be able to play TK using the new rules. But just don't get too closely attached to whatever system you use because it may get thrown out the window when the FAQ arrives.

Lord Zarkov
24-06-2010, 22:12
Also, the spell is always cast unless dispelled by the enemy
Seems pretty clear cut to me: TK spells will work exactly as the do now - yes it's a slight boost, but the army also gets a nerf from no longer being able to autobreak wiith fear.

jamano
24-06-2010, 23:21
Seems pretty clear cut to me: TK spells will work exactly as the do now - yes it's a slight boost, but the army also gets a nerf from no longer being able to autobreak wiith fear. They're cast as a bound spell, which means you use power dice, which means they will run out of power dice extremely fast.

Lord Zarkov
25-06-2010, 00:34
They're also 'always cast unless dispelled by the enemy'. (and it's 'like a bound spell', not 'as a bound spell')
Worst case you have to use a power dice for every incantation cast, but they're still cast regardless. Though you would then have the issue of whether the enemy have to beat the power level or the power dice roll.

Given that there is one and a half lines saying that they are always cast and only half a line saying 'like a bound spell' if something has to be ignored it would make sense for it to be the half line, rather than the one and a half.

And as it is 'like' a bound spell, not 'as' a bound spell there is wiggle room for differing, such as ignoring IF/miscast as per their rules or additionally being automatically cast as per their rules.

Personally I see them either FAQing 'like a bound spell' to mean only in 'they can be used by non-wizards' or (much more likely IMO) simple Errataing the offending clause out of the sentance. (like usually happens with GW rules when something does something like something that used to do that thing but doesn't any more)

Rhamag
25-06-2010, 00:55
After careful reading of the posts above, it seems to me that the whole issue boils down to the definitions of "like" and "as"!

Like similar to; in the same way or manner as

As in the same way

(From the Cambridge Dictionary)

Still no idea!

jamano
25-06-2010, 01:21
the point is you can't ignore ANY of the lines, so we need to wait for FAQ

Blood Frenzy
25-06-2010, 09:59
I read it that the level of the spell to be dispelled is the sum of the 2d6 rolled by the Tomb King player. The tomb king player does not have to roll to cast as the spell is automaticly cast. Your opponent just has to dispell the incantation.

Have read everybodies posts, can see the confusion but the spells are auto cast so I think its a moot point.

My Tomb Kings are now competitive again

Marshal Augustine
25-06-2010, 23:01
something that my brother suggested was:
Roll for the winds of magic as normal.
each incantation uses a D6 from the power pool (unless you are a HLP who would use two)
roll for the incantation using the rules from the book, you use a dice, they automatically go off unless dispelled at the power of the roll. The only thing being that you are still subjected to the winds of magic rules or what not....
interesting.