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fudgebutt
17-06-2010, 10:06
There are a lot of examples in fluff where behaviour in real space affects the behaviour of the warp, even if it's not necessarily deliberate

- The eldar dive into excess and and cause the birth of slaanesh,
- The orks cause the existence of gork and mork through the race's latent psychic behavior,
- The creation of chaos gods and daemons as a response to the emotions of humans (and other races, but I'm going off the more human-centric 2nd edition fluff)
- The negative psychic zone created by the hive mind (although this is sort of weird camoflauge-type deal that's more along the lines of a psychic attack)

So I'm guessing yes, belief and faith the emperor by trillions of subjects IN FACT keeps the emperor rootin' and tootin'.

I'm a proponent of the concept that the emperor is basically a mummy in the reality, but still a valiant, gossamer force in the warp that actively influences the flow of events.

I mean this to be IN EXCESS of the astronomican, which is without question the the act of the cloistered emperor.

I've always loved this as a rationalization for plot armour surrounding legendary human characters, and I think it's alluded to (on very rare occasion ) in the canon.

DISCUSS!!!

Xisor
17-06-2010, 10:59
Well, I think the second bullet point is mistaken in cause-effect, but otherwise it's an intriguing point.

There are, phew, three(?) central aspects to the Emperor:
- His physical manifestation on the throne
- His psychic manifestation which directs the Astronomican, plugs the Webway via the Golden Throne and soul-binds astropaths
- The psychic gestalt 'believed in' by Imperial humans across the galaxy.

Now, the question is: "In 40k to what extent do these aspects overlap?"

In a Catholic/Trinitarian style of 'God-Emperor' they're all one and the same (the Son, the Father and the Holy Spirit)

Except: Which bit is (and if more'n one, in what proportion are they) responsible for pseudo-psychic events (faith based stuff, mainly, but also plot armour for 'legendarily mega Imperial humans')?

In answering these questions you start to have to look at the 'future beliefs' of Humanity:
- The Grey Knight's (and other Astartes) 'battle at the end of time' (where they all go into the warp and join the Emperor on death)
- The Thorians. When the Emperor's physical body dies, his spirit will be reincarnated
- The Star Child. (All the anti-chaos emotions bind together around a benevolent-to-the-continued-existence-of-the-species nascent God called the star child.

I add another option to this though:
- The Fifth Chaos God. The Imperial Creed, all this 'religion' and 'belief' feeding into the warp. Though it's about the Emperor, does it ever reach the Emperor (in any of his forms [what if it just boosts his ability to cast spells? What if it focusses his mind? What if it just makes him a regular-old tough-guy? What if it never even gets near him?) and if not, where does it go?

That is to say: like the Eldar did, humans are just pouring out belief and emotion like there's no tomorrow. For the vast bulk (we presume) of Imperial dogmatic religion; it's all about do as your told, do your job, fight for humanity and don't ask question. That is ignorance and obedience, just enact the will of some godly 'Willpower'. I'd not be at all surprised if, even prior to the Emperor's proper ultimate death, humanity schismed such that there were the '-Emperor' and his few loyal/psychic/well-informed subjects as well as 'The God-', the version of the Emperor which had appeared in the Warp thanks to folks belief, not really much to do with the '-Emperor' himself.

Well, it's a bit all over the place, but I like the idea.

Polaria
17-06-2010, 11:29
Of course the devotion to Emperor increases his power. So does sacrifices made to him. To think anything else would be heretic.

Heru26
17-06-2010, 13:50
Faith lends substance.

gwarsh41
17-06-2010, 20:32
Of course the devotion to Emperor increases his power. So does sacrifices made to him. To think anything else would be heretic.

Like... what if I was to maybe say...
...

He is dead.
...
...
Heresy?

Xyrex
17-06-2010, 22:45
The imperium trinity: The emperor, the emperor, and the emperor. @gwarsh41 HERETIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

El_Machinae
18-06-2010, 19:18
As well, devotion increases temporal power (as long as the devotion is wisely applied). This means that if the Emperor ever needs (or wants) to use the Imperium as a temporal power base, it will be larger than it would have been.

Kage2020
20-06-2010, 16:41
I'm a proponent of the concept that the emperor is basically a mummy in the reality, but still a valiant, gossamer force in the warp that actively influences the flow of events.
I agree, for the most part. There was a recent thread subjected to threadomancy on just this fan speculation. :D (I have three "entities" for your two concepts, but that's OffT here.)

Kage

Tastyfish
20-06-2010, 16:57
Or you might find that the issue is that the Emperor is a little bit too complicated a concept to be a 5th Chaos God.

Depends if you think that the four Chaos Gods (Other, Self, Change and Stasis) represent the '4 Elements' of the Immaterium. Anything else is just feeding these four based on how much it draws upon them.

Kage2020
20-06-2010, 17:03
If you don't, however, then you're good to go. The joys of fan interpretation and 'fluff' that can be taken any which way from Sunday to Orange Blossom.

And the Emperor complicated? Errrr... Perhaps. What the people have made the Emperor into? Maybe a bit less.

:D

Kage

EmperorEternalXIX
21-06-2010, 09:25
There are a lot of examples in fluff where behaviour in real space affects the behaviour of the warp, even if it's not necessarily deliberate

- The eldar dive into excess and and cause the birth of slaanesh,
- The orks cause the existence of gork and mork through the race's latent psychic behavior,
- The creation of chaos gods and daemons as a response to the emotions of humans (and other races, but I'm going off the more human-centric 2nd edition fluff)
- The negative psychic zone created by the hive mind (although this is sort of weird camoflauge-type deal that's more along the lines of a psychic attack)

So I'm guessing yes, belief and faith the emperor by trillions of subjects IN FACT keeps the emperor rootin' and tootin'.

I'm a proponent of the concept that the emperor is basically a mummy in the reality, but still a valiant, gossamer force in the warp that actively influences the flow of events.

I mean this to be IN EXCESS of the astronomican, which is without question the the act of the cloistered emperor.

I've always loved this as a rationalization for plot armour surrounding legendary human characters, and I think it's alluded to (on very rare occasion ) in the canon.

DISCUSS!!!I think that the instant the Emperor's body finally dies, his soul is going to go into the warp and become more powerful than anything the galaxy has ever seen.

They hint at this as the game goes on. What else could the Sanguinor be, but a "warp daemon" created by the Emperor instead of one of the Chaos gods, for example?

Green-is-best
21-06-2010, 21:47
I agree, for the most part. There was a recent thread subjected to threadomancy on just this fan speculation. :D (I have three "entities" for your two concepts, but that's OffT here.)

Kage

Doesn't Inquisiton War basically prove that he is not only not a mummy, but actually every bit as powerful as the fluff claims that he is? I mean, he stops time for Jaq Draco and discusses all of that junk with him. That's not really very mummy-like.

Kage2020
21-06-2010, 22:03
First off, are you talking about a "mummy" from the real world (that just tend to lay around all day) or one from, say, The Mummy that can do a bit more? Secondly, in the latter case does being able to move around and otherwise interact with the physical universe (even in a powerful sense) in any way? Thirdly, stopping time at the time of writing was a common power for Major Hero/Level 4 psykers. Put another way, it's no real biggie.

Kage

Green-is-best
21-06-2010, 22:14
First off, are you talking about a "mummy" from the real world (that just tend to lay around all day) or one from, say, The Mummy that can do a bit more? Secondly, in the latter case does being able to move around and otherwise interact with the physical universe (even in a powerful sense) in any way? Thirdly, stopping time at the time of writing was a common power for Major Hero/Level 4 psykers. Put another way, it's no real biggie.

Kage

Well, I think a mummy is generally an embalmed corpse, so I always figured when somebody said the Emperor was a mummy or a rotting corpse or whatever they were implying that he was dead, or at the very least in active. I never considered that people were implying that the Emperor got up and chased Brenden Fraiser and Rachel Weisz around the Imperial Palace to gather the arcane artifacts required to reform his body. :eyebrows:

Anywho, regardless of the difficulty level of stopping time for a single person, the entities that communicated with Draco pretty plainly said they do in fact do most everything that it is said that they do.

Coltaine
21-06-2010, 22:52
The emperor doesnt gain power from devotion, as he isnt a warp creature.
But like the Eldar creating Slaanesh, all that faith and devotion must be coelescing(sp) into something in the warp. Im a fan of the Star Child theory, as not everything in the warp is evil, its just an alternate reality.

Anyone that has read the Gaunts ghost series will be familiar with Saint Sabbats reincarnation through the girl ( cant remember her name ). In my 40k Universe, the saint isnt actually reborn, but she is a good daemon (angel), posessing the form of the girl for a moment in real space. So in my 40k world, this act lends credence to theory of good daemons and as a result, the Star Child.

I think because the Star Child hasnt fully awoken yet that its powers are limited. Almost as though its sleeping and its dreams are affecting the physical realm. Also, i dont believe that the Emperor and the StarChild are connected other than the fact that the emperor is the nexus for belief in the imperium and this belief is coelecing in the warp as the star child.

just my 2 cents =)

A Shadow
22-06-2010, 00:04
Does the Emperor need to be strengthened? When he casts down Horus the Chaos Gods see his power and FLEE!, leaving their servants to their fate. Doesn't this suggest that the Emperor is already pretty powerful?

EmperorEternalXIX
22-06-2010, 04:00
One of my favorite aspects of the fluff of the Emperor is that he is often not seen as very powerful, but actually is extraordinarily powerful, and merely does not use his full force all the time. Even when he fights Horus, it appears he is outmatched to an extent, but when he finally decides to mount an offense he literally annihilates Horus with the blink of an eye.

fudgebutt
22-06-2010, 06:50
One of my favorite aspects of the fluff of the Emperor is that he is often not seen as very powerful, but actually is extraordinarily powerful, and merely does not use his full force all the time. Even when he fights Horus, it appears he is outmatched to an extent, but when he finally decides to mount an offense he literally annihilates Horus with the blink of an eye.

Thumbs up on that.

Iracundus
22-06-2010, 10:00
However the Emperor's reduction to a mummy was not entirely due to his direct injuries from Horus. His attacks against Horus that finally defeated Horus used so much power that the Emperor could no longer maintain his ageless immortality like before. It was a use of power that was not within his normal ranges of use, analogous to how people in life threatening extreme situations have sometimes shown extraordinary strength above and beyond their usual limits but at the cost of rupturing or tearing muscles free from their bones.

Coltaine
22-06-2010, 10:20
However the Emperor's reduction to a mummy was not entirely due to his direct injuries from Horus. His attacks against Horus that finally defeated Horus used so much power that the Emperor could no longer maintain his ageless immortality like before. It was a use of power that was not within his normal ranges of use, analogous to how people in life threatening extreme situations have sometimes shown extraordinary strength above and beyond their usual limits but at the cost of rupturing or tearing muscles free from their bones.

I have never read or heard about this in any lore before, and ive been a 40ker for 20years. Like its been said previously, the Emperor was holding back on killing Horus, until he finally decided there was no spark of him coming back from the brink, then he ended Horus. He not only killed Horus in the physical realm, he destroyed his 'soul' too. Total Annhilation. All in the blink of an eye.
And as I understand it, it was his holding back, letting Horus cause him injury while he searched for a fragment of goodness that caused his ascension to the Golden Throne.

But as always, 40k is huge and open to interpretation. Its ultimately up to you to choose what to believe.

imo =)

Idaan
22-06-2010, 14:27
the Chaos Gods see his power and FLEE!
The story is written from his perspective, not the Chaos Gods'. He only senses them withdrawing their power from Horus and interprets this as fleeing. First, we don't know why they did that in truth. Second, he doesn't see them as fearing him - you move away your hand if an ant bites you - it's unpleasant, but not exactly dangerous.

Karl MkVI
22-06-2010, 15:15
The story is written from his perspective, not the Chaos Gods'. He only senses them withdrawing their power from Horus and interprets this as fleeing.

fair, but Collected Visions is written from a fairly neutral perspective, and notes them as withdrawing; i think its fair to assume that this would be because they know that they are losing, which gives us some indication as to the true power of the Emperor. imo.

Lord Zarkov
22-06-2010, 21:43
The collected visions account is the same as the old Bill King one (aside from the IF terminator becoming a custodes it is pretty much word for word) and is essentially the FPPOV of the Emperor himself.

The exact quote is also

He sensed the forces of Chaos retreat, disengaging themselves from their pawn
so it's
a) the Emp's pov and
b) more of an orderly retreat then screaming in terror fleeing

Edit:
Frankly though why hang around when your pawn is seconds from death, and has done his job already.

Leez
24-06-2010, 03:03
A simple yes, I think, right from codex: CD p6.


As a Choas God gathers energy it expands, its corresponding influence on the Warp around it broadens and its territory in the Realm of Chaos grows.

I am with Xisor on this one and have been ever since I read the bit about how the eldar view the humans are being on the same path they were. The histories and current state of things read the same. Not with the same destination though, the Emeperor as Chaos God will have its own characteristcs. To me the real question is "What kind of Chaos God is the Carrion God?"

Many aspects are already taken by the current four, my take on them is

Khorne: Anger, Fury, Pride, Death. . .
Nurgle: Hope, Dying, Love . . .
Slaanesh: Greed, Gluttony, Exccess . . .
Tzeentch: Change, Lies, Knowledge, Control . . .

Carrion God: . . . so many good options already taken.

I speak in the tense that he already is a Chaos God, think of Slaanesh. The chronolgy we have is from the 40K's "real universe". Such things mean nothing in the Imaterium, Slaanesh has both always existed, p7.

. . . I've spent way to much time thinking about this, so I'm just going to stop now.

Lord Malice
24-06-2010, 23:25
That's an interesting take on the subject.

We know that the Emperor, or shall we say, the New Man, does not gain power from Faith. The New Man's power comes from His ability to allow the pure Warp to flow through Him.

On the other hand we have the Emperor as worshipped by trillions of humans, the Carrion Lord of the Imperium. Obviously Hate would be a major component of this Chaos God as well as Contempt, Hostility, Suffering, Fear and Misery. I would also imagine that domination, martyrdom, sacrifice, ignorance, cannibalism (for whom Blood is Drunk and Flesh Eaten), intolerance and callousness would be aspects of the Carrion Lord.

Tastyfish
26-06-2010, 00:01
A simple yes, I think, right from codex: CD p6.



I am with Xisor on this one and have been ever since I read the bit about how the eldar view the humans are being on the same path they were. The histories and current state of things read the same. Not with the same destination though, the Emeperor as Chaos God will have its own characteristcs. To me the real question is "What kind of Chaos God is the Carrion God?"

Many aspects are already taken by the current four, my take on them is

Khorne: Anger, Fury, Pride, Death. . .
Nurgle: Hope, Dying, Love . . .
Slaanesh: Greed, Gluttony, Exccess . . .
Tzeentch: Change, Lies, Knowledge, Control . . .

Carrion God: . . . so many good options already taken.

I speak in the tense that he already is a Chaos God, think of Slaanesh. The chronolgy we have is from the 40K's "real universe". Such things mean nothing in the Imaterium, Slaanesh has both always existed, p7.

. . . I've spent way to much time thinking about this, so I'm just going to stop now.

Tzeentch is hope, whilst Nurgle is satisfaction, conformity, belonging and stasis.

Love is far more complicated, split between Lust (Slaanesh), Hope (Tzeentch - the search for love and the changes it will bring - starting a family etc) and Belonging (Nurgle - the idea that it is a permanent thing that will never change regardless of what happens outside of the partnership).

Far too easy to break down any concept of the Emperor into the Chaos god's realms of influence.

EmperorEternalXIX
26-06-2010, 01:02
I am really romanticized by the idea of the Emperor becoming a positive force in the realm of chaos, and having angelic "daemons" of his own, but that would be a cool ending for all of 40k as the universe finally collapses in on itself, and nothing else.

Still, it is hard to explain the route that they take with the fluff sometimes without thinking they aren't going to wake him up at some point...

The Inevitable One
27-06-2010, 02:39
If the Emperor is indeed a god, then yes, just as despair, pleasure, war, and manipulation strengthen the Chaos Gods.

Clockwork-Knight
27-06-2010, 07:56
This starchild will be a disaster for mankind as Slaanesh was for the eldar. Once the psychic birthscream of such a powerful warp entity spreads around the galaxy, mankind will be annihilated save for a few (billions?), as that being will feed upon mankind's intolerance, hate, anti-progress mindstate and ignorance, attributes considered to be good and virtuous in the Imperium.
The birth of such warp creatures like Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle brought only misery upon mankind. A fifth chaos god will not be good for mankind either, no matter how much they worship him.
This entity, the monstrous "starchild", that the Imperium mistakes for the Emperor, to which blood is spilled, countless sacrifices are made, and genocidal purges are offered, will fight between Khorne and Nurgle for the aspects it will occupy. However, this star-child cannot yet awaken, for even although the mass-emotions of all these dreadful emotions swirl up the warp, mankind would first become a fully psychic race like the Eldar and the Orks, for only then would the energy turn the starchild into a conscious warp being.

Meanwhile, the Emperor is tortured since 10.000 years on the Golden Throne, kept forever by a conspiracy of the Inquisition that they themselves might have forgotten. He is fighting against endless legions of daemons threatening to engulf Terra through the warp gate under the Golden Throne, and being fed the souls of a thousand psykers whose pain is endless and maddening. The Emperor tries his very best, but will lose this battle, betrayed by the Imperium itself, who worships false deities, wages infinite and ultimately pointless wars, chained to a machine modified to become his prison where he is impotent to save mankind from the inevitable doom that humanity is bringing upon itself, and cannot teach psykers how to shield their minds from the corruption of chaos.

Grimdarkdespairdystopia at its fullest.

Iracundus
27-06-2010, 08:18
I think you've gotten the idea of the Starchild mixed up with the ideals of the Emperor, at least as he is worshipped by the Imperium. The Starchild as described in the Realms of Chaos is the core of the old Emperor flowing with the old harmonious warp. Some of the Sensei have links to this nascent power, effectively becoming Champions of this Starchild, but the Imperium and the Inquisition hunt them down. The Imperium in general and the general Inquisition because the Sensei are often activists, rebels, anti-establishment figures, or consort with aliens and undesirables while preaching tolerance and forgiveness. The secret Illuminati members of the Inquisition that know of the Sensei pursue in turn because of their plans to sacrifice the Sensei to keep the Emperor going.

The Starchild is described in the Realms of Chaos as only finally awakening when the desperate cries of humanity for a new savior kindle the Starchild to life. Would this wipe out humanity? Not necessarily, no more than the birth of Khorne, Tzeentch, and Nurgle did when the Emperor was still walking around on Earth.

Ultimately what is darker is the existence of a genuine hope for humanity, in the form of this Starchild, but the Imperium and Inquisition squashes it, in the name of preserving the Emperor and the status quo, resulting in everything going down the drain.

Clockwork-Knight
27-06-2010, 09:32
But Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle gained consciousness during a time when all these negative emotions had only to feed on middle age humans, which weren't that many. However, in the 41. Millenium, several trillion humans now enforce and embrace these dark ideals that do strengthen the chaos gods as well.
Several billion eldar create the chaos god Slaanesh, who at his moment of birth became the mightiest chaos god for a short moment. Several trillion human psykers are not going to be a good thing for the galaxy, and in only a few generations, mankind reaches its psychic potential just like the eldar and the orks, but with no particular training that the Emperor could have provided them, they are going to create uncountable warp breaches into real spaces and bring forth enslavers, psychneuin, warp vampires and chaos daemons everywhere (this already happening in a great number on many planets according to the fifth edition rulebook).
Also, what the secretive few illuminati (if they still exist as such in the more recent editions) believe about these possible entity (the starchild) does not have to turn out to be true.

Actually, weren't the things written about the starchild actually only a theory from imperial perspective?

For the lack of a better name, I would call the future fifth chaos god the starchild, as all these emotions of pure hatred, intolerance and outright lust for stagnation and mass-genocide are going to coalesced into something absolutely not what people would call nice, forgiving and helpful. :p

Iracundus
27-06-2010, 09:41
Actually, weren't the things written about the starchild actually only a theory from imperial perspective?


No, they were written from the impersonal 3rd person narrator POV in the Realms of Chaos. Subsequently, in 3rd edition, in the main rulebook, an Inquisitor cracks down on a Cult of the Starchild, including a few Sensei and he believes it to be a Tzeentch cult (citing supposed similarities with another past Tzeentch cult) but that is his belief, not necessarily the truth. Given the previous Realms of Chaos background, what could be more ironic than Tzeentch manipulating the Emperor's followers into persecuting the Emperor's sons?



For the lack of a better name, I would call the future fifth chaos god the starchild, as all these emotions of pure hatred, intolerance and outright lust for stagnation and mass-genocide are going to coalesced into something absolutely not what people would call nice, forgiving and helpful. :p

You need to get your terminology more consistent with what is generally known and used in general, because that is not what the Starchild is defined to be in the Realms of Chaos. What you are describing is more like the Emperor as warp god, as worshipped by the people of the Imperium, which is potentially distinct from the original Emperor, as shaman gestalt, and distinct from the Starchild. The distinction is significant because you're essentially mistaking one entity for another, equivalent to calling Khorne the god of plagues and despair.

Lord Malice
27-06-2010, 15:52
The Star Child is the potential of the Emperor's Soul, waiting to be reborn as the New Man. If the prophecy of the Star Child were to come true then the New Man (or Emperor) would be reborn into a new body and walk amongst mankind once more.

The more recent Thorian background doesn't replace the Sensei/Illuminati background but that background is now used for the Thorians and the other Inquisition factions. Whilst the Star Child could one day be reborn into a new body the newer background has it that the Emperor Himself could be restored at any time, into His old body.

There are several avenues that could lead to the restoration of the New Man/Emperor but it would have to happen within a given time since even the Emperor does not know how long He can survive before He loses His grip on His physical remains.

Kage2020
27-06-2010, 17:02
But Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle gained consciousness during a time when all these negative emotions had only to feed on middle age humans, which weren't that many.
Hasn't that idea been pretty much crushed by the Liber Chaotica series? I know that's later 'fluff' and does not necessarily supersede the information from Lost and the Damned but... Well, the whole "humans created the Chaos Gods" in their early prehistory/history was pretty much tosh from the start. I think that had GW run it by your average five year old (ala the Evil Overlord list) they would have pretty much been able to point out this flaw. :eyebrows:


Actually, weren't the things written about the starchild actually only a theory from imperial perspective?
On the "Cult of the Star Child" that was associated with Tzeentch and subsequently destroyed? Yeah, that's from an Imperial perspective.


For the lack of a better name, I would call the future fifth chaos god the starchild, as all these emotions of pure hatred, intolerance and outright lust for stagnation and mass-genocide are going to coalesced into something absolutely not what people would call nice, forgiving and helpful. :p
That's why I associate the nastiness with the "Dark Twin" (Chaos god formed from the collective misworship of the Emperor that is perpetuated by the Adeptus Ministorum, which is why the Emperor had a beef about the whole adoration thing from the get-go), and leave the Star Child as something else. After all, it was meant to form a new New Man (physical messiah), even if subsequent primarily fan interpretation, which I agree with, has the new New Man being the physical avatar of a more powerful entity in the Warp.

Of course, YMMV as always. :D

Kage

MvS
30-06-2010, 14:35
Hasn't that idea been pretty much crushed by the Liber Chaotica series? I know that's later 'fluff' and does not necessarily supersede the information from Lost and the Damned but... Well, the whole "humans created the Chaos Gods" in their early prehistory/history was pretty much tosh from the start. I think that had GW run it by your average five year old (ala the Evil Overlord list) they would have pretty much been able to point out this flaw.
Well they try to circumnavigate this by pointing out that the Warp is 'outside time' so even though the Chaos Gods had a 'birth' due to human activity over the last 100,000 years or whatever, the gods also always existed because, um... Warpwavium, ask-ye-not type stuff.

I'm not a fan.

Lord Malice
30-06-2010, 22:05
Well if there is no linear time in the Warp then it doesn't matter at what point a warp being comes into existence, if they exist at one point in 'time' then they exist at all other points as well.

I don't think that Liber Chaotica destroys the background from Lost and the Damned only modifies it. The older background tells us that, as with Slaanesh, the three Chaos Gods awoke due to the activities of mortal creatues, mainly humans although it doesn't lay the blame solely on humanity but on other unnamed mortal races as well.

In Liber Chaotica Slaanesh we see a character from the Warhammer universe describe events from the Warhammer 40,000 universe; despite Games Workshop's claim that the two universes are not distinct. We see the creation of the Eldar and their rise, the return of the Old Ones and the War in Heaven and the subsequent creation of Slaanesh. The War in Heaven is omething new but the Eldar background and the creation of Slaanesh is consistent with the older background from Lost and the Damned.

In Liber Chaotica Richter Kless doesn't know if the unfurling story of the Eldar is current to his time or some far future event but in any case, Slaanesh existed for untold millennia but awoke in the 31st Millennium and then subsequently was awake in whatever time the Warhammer world exists so it doesn't seem too much of a stretch to say that the other Gods could exist in the past due to their awakening at some point in the future, a linear future as percieved by the mortal races, which has no impact on what can or cannot exist or when a character or event can or cannot exist in the Realm of Chaos.

Kage2020
01-07-2010, 00:44
BTW, MvS... How did that graduate degree go? (I've resisted the urge of IM for the sake of your privacy, so thought that I would make you publically talk about it.... Or PM. :D)


Well they try to circumnavigate this by pointing out that the Warp is 'outside time' so even though the Chaos Gods had a 'birth' due to human activity over the last 100,000 years or whatever, the gods also always existed because, um... Warpwavium, ask-ye-not type stuff.

I'm not a fan.
I really never saw why "summoning" of the attention of the Chaos God would have ever been a problem. Gods can be born and die, change shape and so on. Slaanesh is wrought or given form by the Eldar...


...They shape and form decreed never was...

Kage

Lord Zarkov
01-07-2010, 15:39
In Liber Chaotica Richter Kless doesn't know if the unfurling story of the Eldar is current to his time or some far future event but in any case, Slaanesh existed for untold millennia but awoke in the 31st Millennium and then subsequently was awake in whatever time the Warhammer world exists so it doesn't seem too much of a stretch to say that the other Gods could exist in the past due to their awakening at some point in the future, a linear future as percieved by the mortal races, which has no impact on what can or cannot exist or when a character or event can or cannot exist in the Realm of Chaos.

Also In theory I think they could exist and prehaps even remember times long before they became concious - so they can remember back to the beginning of time, but prehaps didn't get big enough to be noticible until the war in heaven, then didin't finally wake up until the middle ages/the fall.

So around since the dawn of time
Big enough to be a pain in the warp from a certain point
Actually awake and ordering Legions of Daemons etc after another point.