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Vsurma
17-06-2010, 18:27
In the 8th edition book the slann is classified as infantry.

The transformation spell states it can only be cast by a mage on foot.

Now the slann has its palaquin which rises when the slann wants to cast a spell..

Can the slann turn into a dragon? The palaquin doesn't actually state that you are no longer on foot, though the fluff description leads you to believe so.

The beastiary says the slann is infantry (infantry being on foot I assume)

If a salamanders flaming shot is not "flamming" because the flame is in the name only, not in special rules, then I guess by the same logic a slann doesn't stop being on foot since it doesn't have special rule that says otherwise.... just a fluff discription.... maybe.

I would love to have the chance to turn into a dragon but atm I can see it going both ways.

Ultimate Life Form
17-06-2010, 18:30
The Slann is infantry and stays infantry.

What I really want to see though is the Slann being turned into a frog! :evilgrin:

N810
17-06-2010, 18:36
We will have to wait and see what the 8th edition FAQ's say...

Greyfire
17-06-2010, 20:58
What I really want to see though is the Slann being turned into a frog! :evilgrin:
I've seen that too many times in past editions. It's not fun. Around 400 points for a frog that doesn't include even a "snatch fly" attack. :(

TheDarkDaff
17-06-2010, 21:25
In 8th Ed we don't know if he is infantry. He may end up being classed as Ogre sized.

I know last book that the Slaan counted as being mounted on his palaquin but haven't read the current book in quite a while. There may be something tucked away somewhere.

Voss
18-06-2010, 03:55
Actually, everything is classified in the reference section in the back. I don't remember off hand what his is, but it is in the rulebook.

Greyfire
18-06-2010, 05:00
I looked in the store copy of the FLGS today. The Slann is listed as infantry in the reference of the book. Of course, that may change when the errata/faq is released. But for now he's infantry.

Paraelix
18-06-2010, 05:04
Why would it change?

Milgram
18-06-2010, 08:33
fell bats
harpies
gargoyles

there are enough examples of flying infantry.

Paraelix
18-06-2010, 08:57
I don't see your point. Slann doesn't fly... He hovers with a standard ground movement...

Unless he rides a CARPET!

Milgram
18-06-2010, 10:05
I just say: it is no argument of 'infantry' or 'not-infantry'. which makes half of the posts above pointless.

darkstar
18-06-2010, 12:12
The Slann is infantry and stays infantry.

What I really want to see though is the Slann being turned into a frog! :evilgrin:
ULF is correct, although I'm eagerly awaiting the opportunity to yell at my opponent's slann "You're a toad!" and hope he has the wit to say "Yeah, well, you're an Empire Wizard! Nerr!"

Yes, the Slann can magically transmogify himself into a dragon, and with three additional (powerstone+discipline) dice and +4 to cast, it's rather likely. Also, when you miscast, you cupped hand the result to your opponent.

He does have to be outside of the unit before he does this though.

monstallion
18-06-2010, 13:49
You don't have to be outside the unit to do the spell. Also the mountain chimera is fun as the damage it can do is fairly immense.

Leth Shyish'phak
18-06-2010, 16:10
You don't have to be outside the unit to do the spell.

He does if he wants to start flying around, otherwise his Temple Guard won't let him go. :D

darkstar
18-06-2010, 19:00
I believe that there has to be sufficient room to place the dragon model, otherwise the effects are ignored. I might be wrong though.

Jericho
18-06-2010, 21:40
Doesn't it also say that the wizard can remain in his unit, even though these monsters normally can't join units due to being flying monsters?

And, yes, the Mountain Chimera is a freaking buzzsaw in combat with 4d6 attacks! An average roll of 14A is insane.

Vsurma
18-06-2010, 23:27
Don't forget 2d6 s4 breath hits
and
D6 stomp hits

CaliforniaGamer
18-06-2010, 23:39
Slann taking Lore of Beasts and morphing into Mothra(likely the fire dragon) on either turn 1 or turn 2 will be as common in touraments as stegadons. I just dont see much of a downside to doing it. With your opponent getting only one of the D6s for DD, he may go round after round without dispelling it (probably have to spend 1 round to throw ALL his PD at it hoping for IR roll) and that alone will win games.

I can see many LM players working into the night on a LM Dragon conversion for tournaments...

Ultimate Life Form
19-06-2010, 00:02
I can see many LM players working into the night on a LM Dragon conversion for tournaments...

I could just use that giant Coatl I'm working on... :angel:

Orcboy_Phil
19-06-2010, 09:05
I could just use that giant Coatl I'm working on... :angel:

Pics or it never happened

Urgat
19-06-2010, 11:55
Does that spell still allows the caster to act as, well, a caster, though? I do think I'd rather face a dragon than a *******' lvl 4 frog.

Vsurma
19-06-2010, 21:54
No more casting, your a dragon now.

However I think some of you have a somewhat strange idea of how good it is.

Imagine the following situations:
You turn into a dragon (out of combat)

Opponents next magic phase:
Throw 6 PD to dispel it. (or he could throw a few fireball spells...hmm which will they choose?)

Net gain = you risk a miscast to cancel an enemies magic phase. (at a cost of your magic phase since you need 5-6 dice to cast the spell, assuming you manage to cast)

Alternatively:
You charge into CC with your mage and/or the unit he is with, THEN turn into a dragon (if you manage to do it without them dispelling)

You kill their unit and the dragon is dispelled the following turn...

If you look at the mountain chimeras 7d6 attacks, I really don't see the opponent letting you stay as a dragon for more than 1 phase. Though they could get unlucky and have less than 5 PD in which case it's hard to dispel.

Still, I think that 1 phase is enough for me to run a slann just for that.

I am playing a tournament the day after the new book is released and atm I am thinking I will run 1 fire slann and 1 beast slann with whole lore and power scroll.

This way I can charge into a unit, cast a IF dragon transformation, kill said unit (or do whatever my 20 S7/4 hits do) and if it's dispelled at least I got my moneys worth from the spell.

Unless your opponent is about to cast purple sun on your armies flank, I think they will always go for the dispel over casting themselves.

Greyfire
20-06-2010, 17:13
How does the Slann get out of the second rank if you cast while in a unit? I'm thinking of the charge'n'cast scenario above where the formation is set after the charge is finished. I'd hate for the Slann to end up with only 1 supporting attack from the second rank. So how does he get to the front rank?

ooglatjama
21-06-2010, 07:45
I will just cannon the damn thing with my new and improved gunline.

Lordmonkey
21-06-2010, 11:22
He does if he wants to start flying around, otherwise his Temple Guard won't let him go. :D

lol!

Get back down here you flapping loon! *Yank*

If the Slaan is treated as a single multi-wound model in the previous edition I would expect the same to happen this time around. Whether this means it is classed as infantry though is another question entirely.

Are ogres classed as infantry?

Gekiganger
21-06-2010, 15:18
Does that spell still allows the caster to act as, well, a caster, though? I do think I'd rather face a dragon than a *******' lvl 4 frog.

I'm with Urgat on this, I can see it being a 'Don't look so smug! I know what you're thinking, but the Temple Guard were merely a set back. Did you honestly believe I would trust the future to some slow, half-lizard mongrel? [Croak] Oh no, no, no, they were merely an instrument, a stepping stone to a much larger plan! It has all led to this...and this time, you will not interfere!' moment where upon finally plodding through a hail of magic missiles and comets, you find your squishy frog isn't quite so vulnerable in melee after all.

Vsurma
21-06-2010, 17:09
lol!

Get back down here you flapping loon! *Yank*

If the Slaan is treated as a single multi-wound model in the previous edition I would expect the same to happen this time around. Whether this means it is classed as infantry though is another question entirely.

Are ogres classed as infantry?

I looked in the book, under bestiary where every model is classified. The slann is indeed classed as infantry.

The question came from the fact that the spell can be cast by models on foot (not infantry) and we don't really know if infantry=model on foot. 95% will assume so but the other 5% may not.

Paraelix
22-06-2010, 01:58
He does if he wants to start flying around, otherwise his Temple Guard won't let him go. :D

Actually he has to be outside the unit from the start of the game... Slann cannot leave TG units. And when in TG, even if made a dragon, he must stay in 2nd rank.


Are ogres classed as infantry?
Monstrous Infantry

Gaargod
22-06-2010, 02:19
Interestingly, if they keep all their special rules, slann-dragons will indeed be stuck in TG. However, if he can attack from the second rank... who cares? You can absolutely beat the 7 levels of crap out of anything in front of you and even get protection from being attacked!

Still not going to take that lore, but the idea is amusing to say the least.

Paraelix
22-06-2010, 02:22
Interestingly, if they keep all their special rules, slann-dragons will indeed be stuck in TG. However, if he can attack from the second rank... who cares? You can absolutely beat the 7 levels of crap out of anything in front of you and even get protection from being attacked!

Still not going to take that lore, but the idea is amusing to say the least.

Supporting attacks are for Inf, Mons Inf, Mons Cav, Cav, etc.

MONSTERS do not get supporting attacks.

Loq-Gor
22-06-2010, 03:32
My most common opponent is VC so I will be doing this from time to time just so my opponent has two options. Summon back those units my saurus are munching on or get rid of the uber dragon that's about to colapse his flank or eat his general.

N810
22-06-2010, 19:05
A little something I found on TVP...

Something i noticed.

There is a new special rule called HOVER. Hopefully they use this as errate for the slann. It says Hover models can't march but are otherwise considered to be flying. This is good as the slann shouldn't be counted as on foot in special scenarios or spells that may affect models touching the ground

Sanjay

Greyfire
22-06-2010, 20:02
Hover models can't march...
So the Slann wouldn't be able to march along with his TG? This doesn't seem right.

N810
22-06-2010, 20:03
Sure he will, since he will be moving 10" without marching :D
(fliers will have a move of 10" and a march of 20")

Greyfire
22-06-2010, 20:07
Doh! You're quite right. I forgot that 10 > 8, and only saw the "may not march". Thanks!

Xarius
22-06-2010, 21:42
what I want to see is a nice cute damsel turning into a big nasty dragon while the slan turns into an even smaller frog than he already is.

N810
22-06-2010, 22:02
You guys might want to consider Tenehuan,
He's not as expensive as a Slann and he gets the Beast lore.

Paraelix
23-06-2010, 02:30
Hover is a rules clarification for Discs of Tzeentch I believe...


You guys might want to consider Tenehuan,
He's not as expensive as a Slann and he gets the Beast lore.
He also rolls spells, is a Lvl 2 wizard and is unbreakable, so cannot join units... And has only T3, W3, and a 5+ ward.

N810
23-06-2010, 02:44
Hover is a rules clarification for Discs of Tzeentch I believe...


He also rolls spells, is a Lvl 2 wizard and is unbreakable, so cannot join units... And has only T3, W3, and a 5+ ward.

Which ain't bad for a Skink Priest character,
also he is surrounded buy serpent that get a bunch of poison attacks,
or you can put him on a Steg.I think you might be able to have him join Swarms...
or at least you used to...

Paraelix
23-06-2010, 02:50
Which ain't bad for a Skink Priest character,
also he is surrounded buy serpent that get a bunch of poison attacks,
or you can put him on a Steg.I think you might be able to have him join Swarms...
or at least you used to...

Yeh, but you suggested him as an alternative to make a dragon... Can't cast the spell if not on foot.

N810
23-06-2010, 03:04
Yea for the Dragon you are going to have to field him on foot.
the Steg is only optional

Ultimate Life Form
23-06-2010, 05:37
Pics or it never happened

Your wish is my command.

N810
23-06-2010, 13:07
Lookin' good ULF,
the neck could probaly use some
GS feathers, but I immagine this
is likely your plan anyway. ;)

Greyfire
23-06-2010, 13:49
ULF, for those of us that are jealous could you list the parts you used, please? This has wandered far afield from the OP, but I think others would like to know what pieces would make that conversion. I think I recognize the pegasus wings from Gelt, but I could be wrong. Thanks!

Ultimate Life Form
23-06-2010, 19:01
Oh, it's far from finished of course. :)

It's really simple. Old LotR Felbeast (didn't know they would make a plastic one at that time but the metal one is better suited anyway in my opinion) and Lord of Chick... uh, Change had to sacrifice his head and wings (no biggie because he comes with two heads and the wings can be ordered separately so this expensive model stays intact as well). The jaws are these decorative bits from the Temple Guard sprue that I have lying around in boatloads.

The base is a monster base by the way for scaling, so Balthasar won't cut it. ;)

Greyfire
23-06-2010, 19:25
Very nice! Thank you!

Orcboy_Phil
24-06-2010, 12:35
Your wish is my command.

Its looking fabulous, can't wait to see it painted up.

Kilor the Slayer
24-06-2010, 14:17
Hover is a rules clarification for Discs of Tzeentch I believe...


He also rolls spells, is a Lvl 2 wizard and is unbreakable, so cannot join units... And has only T3, W3, and a 5+ ward.

I may be wrong here, I only looked at the book twice (once at this section) but I don't believe there is any restriction on unbreakable characters joining units now. Maybe someone would be kind enough to confirm/deny this?

And I think hover will also cover stuff like bat swarms who had "weak" flying before.

Leth Shyish'phak
24-06-2010, 15:49
Actually he has to be outside the unit from the start of the game... Slann cannot leave TG units. And when in TG, even if made a dragon, he must stay in 2nd rank.


Yeah... Thats what I said. :confused:

thechosenone
26-06-2010, 02:26
not sure on the spell wording but is he really a Slann anymore. Meaning, must the rule still apply? I mean, in 40K when you turn someone into a chaos spawn or a squig they don't keep their rules.

RichBlake
26-06-2010, 05:03
not sure on the spell wording but is he really a Slann anymore. Meaning, must the rule still apply? I mean, in 40K when you turn someone into a chaos spawn or a squig they don't keep their rules.

More importantly when you become the creature you cannot cast or dispel magic and on top of that any magical items you have are useless and cannot be used. Plus when you do take wounds I think (not 100%) they are carried over to the wizard.

So you'll take a fragile 400 point+ magic frog that only survives by hiding behind hoardes of giant lizards whop is an expert magic caster and turn him into a dragon which, while awesome in close combat, can now far more easily be shot by cannons and other such things. Once the dragon takes some wounds you can dispel the spell as it is RiP and your Slann dies.

I'm positive on the not casting thing, not so much on the wounds and how RiP spells work, nor if the Slanns abilities and traits (e.g. can only be harmed by magical attacks) interact. I think you lose your abilities too.

Against my army of 100 handgunners with 3 cannons and 2 steam tanks I'd love the Slann to turn into a dragon. I could shoot him then and you lose all your magic ability ;)

Vsurma
26-06-2010, 19:51
Well the slann won't be your only mage.

If you want to go for a dragon caster you will likely run a 2nd slann or at least a priest to keep casting and dispelling.

RichBlake
26-06-2010, 23:21
Well the slann won't be your only mage.

If you want to go for a dragon caster you will likely run a 2nd slann or at least a priest to keep casting and dispelling.

Remembering your 25% limit even in a 3K game you "only" have 750 points to spend on lords. Slanns are like 300 points each aren't they? I wouldn't think you'd have the points to run two Slanns.

Vsurma
27-06-2010, 00:25
550pts for 2 slanns with rumination.

Another 85pts buys you
2+ ward vs shooting for 1 slann
ethereal & 2+ ward vs fire attacks for the other.

Leaves 115pts for arcane items if you want.

Bear in mind that having 2 slanns adds no extra dice, just spells so spending an extra 300 points just for that isn't always worth it.

I like to keep mine cheap.

BramGaunt
27-06-2010, 01:28
Oh my God this question has been asked AGAINB and AGAIN and answered so many times...



I will just cannon the damn thing with my new and improved gunline.

You won't if he's ethereal. That's nasty, innit?



Sure he will, since he will be moving 10" without marching :D
(fliers will have a move of 10" and a march of 20")

No, as a unit always moves as fast as the slowest model (TG with M4) and the Slann's not allowed to march. Sou you would be stuck at movement 4. Which we are not. Because he's not hovering.


We will have to wait and see what the 8th edition FAQ's say...

No we don't. Go to your local store, grab the rule book, open up the appendix pages and check his unit category. He's INFANTRY. Period.


In 8th Ed we don't know if he is infantry. He may end up being classed as Ogre sized.

I know last book that the Slaan counted as being mounted on his palaquin but haven't read the current book in quite a while. There may be something tucked away somewhere.

AAAAAARGH!!!! In. Fan. Try. I really had it with that question.

Vsurma
27-06-2010, 01:33
In the 8th edition book the slann is classified as infantry.

The transformation spell states it can only be cast by a mage on foot.

Now the slann has its palaquin which rises when the slann wants to cast a spell..

Can the slann turn into a dragon? The palaquin doesn't actually state that you are no longer on foot, though the fluff description leads you to believe so.

The beastiary says the slann is infantry (infantry being on foot I assume)

If a salamanders flaming shot is not "flamming" because the flame is in the name only, not in special rules, then I guess by the same logic a slann doesn't stop being on foot since it doesn't have special rule that says otherwise.... just a fluff discription.... maybe.

I would love to have the chance to turn into a dragon but atm I can see it going both ways.

Incidentally the first post.

BramGaunt
27-06-2010, 01:39
Yeah, but lots of people still questioned it. That's what I was referring to. It's obviously not enough to state some facts in the first post, some people need to be pointed towards it repeatedly.

RichBlake
27-06-2010, 02:05
You won't if he's ethereal. That's nasty, innit?



Aaprt from if the Slann turns into a beast of some sort he'll lost the rule making him ethereal...

BramGaunt
27-06-2010, 10:18
No. The 6th Beast Spell transforms you into monster x. You lose your magic items, your ability to cast spells. But you keep all your special rules. So, a HE Mage would transform into a dragon with ASF, while a DE mage would keep his eternal hatred. As the disziplins of the slan are no magic items, the effects remain in play.

Ultimate Life Form
27-06-2010, 10:19
...which includes his Shield of the Old Ones! Oh happy day! I'm SO gonna do this! :p

Dokushin
27-06-2010, 11:39
No. The 6th Beast Spell transforms you into monster x. You lose your magic items, your ability to cast spells. But you keep all your special rules. So, a HE Mage would transform into a dragon with ASF, while a DE mage would keep his eternal hatred. As the disziplins of the slan are no magic items, the effects remain in play.

Wait, what? Are you serious?

Ethereal 4+ ward MR(3) superdragon? :skull:

Vsurma
27-06-2010, 12:06
Yea, but before you get too excited remember that it can be transformed back into a t4 4+ ward slann in any of the enemies casting phases.

N810
27-06-2010, 20:42
No we don't. Go to your local store, grab the rule book, open up the appendix pages and check his unit category. He's INFANTRY. Period.





Must be nice to have a local store.... :(

GodlessM
27-06-2010, 20:58
Here's an interesting thought. Say a wizard turns into a Hydra and uses its breath weapon. Then later in the game he turns into a Dragon, can he use the breath weapon again? BW's are one use only, however effectively it is two different breath weapons.

BramGaunt
27-06-2010, 23:53
I thought about that aswell, also what happens if he turns into the same crature again? It's not the same monster. I would dare to say that he may use only one BW per game.

RichBlake
28-06-2010, 03:24
No. The 6th Beast Spell transforms you into monster x. You lose your magic items, your ability to cast spells. But you keep all your special rules. So, a HE Mage would transform into a dragon with ASF, while a DE mage would keep his eternal hatred. As the disziplins of the slan are no magic items, the effects remain in play.

I haven't read the spell fully but does it say you retain your special rules or does it simply say you get turned into the creature with the profiles provided?

Because if so then I'd argue you don't have those special rules as the Greater Fire Dragon doesn't have them in it's profile.

Vsurma
28-06-2010, 09:32
It Specifically says you keep your special rules. (I imagine so vampire armies don't crumble if the lord uses the spell)

But it does make for stupid combos.

DE hatred dragon
HE asf dragon
liz ethereal 4+ ward dragon

As for the breath weapons, its interesting, I would imagine its just a dragon of that sort they turn into (so any mountain chimera) and not a specific one so you would be able to use the breath again.

That said its not really a problem since there are 2 good dragons, the chimera and the fire dragon, just turn into the other one.

You won't be casting that spell more than twice a game except in very rare occasions.

Ultimate Life Form
28-06-2010, 09:53
Vampires can get an ethereal Dragon too, though Red Fury looks tempting as well.

Saldiven
28-06-2010, 20:27
Red Fury Mountain Chimaera....

Mr_Rose
28-06-2010, 20:39
I haven't read the spell fully but does it say you retain your special rules or does it simply say you get turned into the creature with the profiles provided?

Because if so then I'd argue you don't have those special rules as the Greater Fire Dragon doesn't have them in it's profile.
Did...did you miss the part where the guy you replied to specifically said you keep your special rules?

What I want to know is how this retention of special rules bit interacts with the Bloodline powers that give you armour...

RichBlake
29-06-2010, 00:03
Did...did you miss the part where the guy you replied to specifically said you keep your special rules?


Well clearly I did, either that or I just enjoy asking pointless questions for no bloody reason.



What I want to know is how this retention of special rules bit interacts with the Bloodline powers that give you armour...

Fair doos. In respect to the OP then, sure the Slann can turn into a dragon, but then it would also keep the rules stating it had to stay in the second rank. That's if the Slann still has that rule.

Mr_Rose
29-06-2010, 01:14
Yeah, I think the second rank thing is actually a rule of the Guard, not the Slann. But that actually confuses things more. <sigh>
I think this will have to be FAQ'd at some point, unless there's more info in the book than we have now.

Tykinkuula
29-06-2010, 23:25
Ruleswise, unless otherwise noted in the FAQ, temple guard are tenaciously hanging with the Slann. After he turns in to a dragon, it's a Dragon with its own name, stats and rules. Rules, which, among other tihngs, describe you how it may turn back in to a Slann later on. Ruleswise, it doesn't seem to be a Slann while in Dragon form.

N810
30-06-2010, 00:29
pretty sure the temple guard can't have an unridden monster in their second rank...

Spoonie
30-06-2010, 15:02
Step One: Seal of Destruction
Step Two: Pray
Step Three: ???
Step Four: Profit

... That's all I got, really. The idea of an ethereal super dragon made me poo a little. Although the Wyrmslayer Sword seems more than worth it's 15 points all of a sudden!

RichBlake
01-07-2010, 02:34
Ruleswise, unless otherwise noted in the FAQ, temple guard are tenaciously hanging with the Slann. After he turns in to a dragon, it's a Dragon with its own name, stats and rules. Rules, which, among other tihngs, describe you how it may turn back in to a Slann later on. Ruleswise, it doesn't seem to be a Slann while in Dragon form.

Then if thats true the Slann wouldn't have it's abilities, which some have ascertained it does.

Also the dragon's rules don't say how you turn back into a Slann, thats the spell's rules.

Dokushin
01-07-2010, 02:57
After having a look at the book, I'm a little curious as to what reasoning people are following for the mage keeping their special rules.

The relevant portion of the spell reads "Whilst the spell is in effect, the Wizard transmorgrifies himself into one of the following monsters..." and "Whilst transformed, the Wizard cannot channel or cast spells, and all his magic items and mundane equipment (armour, weapons, etc.) temporarily stop working."

As it doesn't mention special rules, wouldn't it be assumed that he has the special rules specified for the beast form, instead of the special rules for the mage that he no longer is?

RichBlake
01-07-2010, 03:05
As it doesn't mention special rules, wouldn't it be assumed that he has the special rules specified for the beast form, instead of the special rules for the mage that he no longer is?

This is what I thought, though I forgot to look it up when i was playing this morning.

There are three possibilities:

1) The Mage turns into the Creature totally replacing all his/her special rules and stats for that of the creature until the spell is dispelled, or is canceled if thats possible.
2) The Mage turns into the Creature, but the special rules that apply to the mage's character still apply to the creature (High Elf mages giving +1 to dispel for example)
3) The Mage turns into the creature but only certain special rules apply.

I think the first is most likely and most fair as it makes sense. The second is possible but daft in my opinion, and if anyone tried to tell me their Fire Dragon was Etheral with MR3 or whatever I'd also say it couldn't leave the temple guard.

The third one is essentially what some people here are arguing, and is frankly ridiculous.

thechosenone
01-07-2010, 04:15
the implications of not retaining your special rules are huge though. A VC army dies if you do that. Do you stop counting a character for things like blood statuette because at the moment you are a generic beast? Do you no longer count as of your base race for specific items that target a race? Just because you can't cast magick do you still count as wizard for the purposes of Plaque of dominion?

Also, there are so many armies that have purchasable options that are not items and spells. Ogre Big names, VC bloodlines, Slann disciplines ect...

Would they really have skipped mentioning this?

Vsurma
01-07-2010, 05:58
After having a look at the book, I'm a little curious as to what reasoning people are following for the mage keeping their special rules.

The relevant portion of the spell reads "Whilst the spell is in effect, the Wizard transmorgrifies himself into one of the following monsters..." and "Whilst transformed, the Wizard cannot channel or cast spells, and all his magic items and mundane equipment (armour, weapons, etc.) temporarily stop working."

As it doesn't mention special rules, wouldn't it be assumed that he has the special rules specified for the beast form, instead of the special rules for the mage that he no longer is?

Except that the sentence continues (99% sure about this otherwise we wouldn't be talking about this)

"Whilst the spell is in effect, the Wizard transmorgrifies himself into one of the following monsters..." and "Whilst transformed, the Wizard cannot channel or cast spells, and all his magic items and mundane equipment (armour, weapons, etc.) temporarily stop working." but it does keep any special rules that effect the caster

If someone has access feel free to have a look. But half of this thread wouldn't exist if the sentence was not there.

Dokushin
01-07-2010, 09:27
Except that the sentence continues (99% sure about this otherwise we wouldn't be talking about this)

"Whilst the spell is in effect, the Wizard transmorgrifies himself into one of the following monsters..." and "Whilst transformed, the Wizard cannot channel or cast spells, and all his magic items and mundane equipment (armour, weapons, etc.) temporarily stop working." but it does keep any special rules that effect the caster

If someone has access feel free to have a look. But half of this thread wouldn't exist if the sentence was not there.

I'm not trying to be harsh, but I don't partially quote things. The entirety of the sentence is as I posted. As it's relevant to the discussion, the entire passage is as follows:



6. TRANSFORMATION OF KADON Cast on (redacted)
Kadon was a master of forms, able to shift his shape to that of any monster. One day he found that he could not change back.

Remains in play. The Transformation of Kadon is an augment spell that can only be cast upon the Wizard, and only if he is on foot. Whilst the spell is in effect, the Wizard transmogrifies himself into one of the following monsters: Feral Manticore, Black Hydra, or Horned Dragon. If the Wizard is in a unit, he can remain within the unit, even though he is now technically a monster (although you may have to reorder the unit a little to make him fit -- see page 98 for some guidance). If he cannot be placed because there is not enough room, the spell does not work. Whilst transformed, the Wizard cannot channel or cast spells, and all of his magic items and mundane equipment (armour, weapons, etc.) temporarily stop working. Any wounds suffered by the Wizard are carried over between transformations. The Wizard can choose to cast a more powerful version of the spell, and become a Mountain Chimera or a Great Fire Dragon. If he does so, the casting value increases to (redacted). Profiles for these monsters can be found at the end of the Bestiary.

That's the whole thing. As I noted before, there is no mention of the wizard's special rules.

Vsurma
01-07-2010, 17:16
That is quite odd, so where did we get the idea for keeping the special rules, I was sure it was in there...

Well, I think its better this way, who wants to fight an ethereal super dragon anyway, this makes much more sense.

Saldiven
01-07-2010, 17:53
Well, we know the wizard has a certain set of rules that apply to it based upon it's profile, army book entry, and the sum total of any weapons, armor and magic items the character has purchased.

The spell instructions give a list of what abilities are no longer available to the caster and what items they can no longer use.

Why should we assume things not listed in the prohibitions are prohibited as well?

For example:

Rule 1 says I have A, B, and C.

Rule 2 says I cannot use A, and B.

Why should I assume I cannot use C?

Lord Zarkov
01-07-2010, 17:58
It doesn't say he doesn't keep his statline either ;)

The profile for the monsters he can turn into have a section for special rules (as do profiles in army books), since he's replacing his profile with the one for the monster he's chosen one would think he'd replace his whole profile, including the special rule section.

RichBlake
02-07-2010, 00:21
Well, we know the wizard has a certain set of rules that apply to it based upon it's profile, army book entry, and the sum total of any weapons, armor and magic items the character has purchased.

The spell instructions give a list of what abilities are no longer available to the caster and what items they can no longer use.

Why should we assume things not listed in the prohibitions are prohibited as well?


In correct assumption, the rules and your army book actually say:

Your Wizard has this statline with the following special rules.

A Greater Fire Dragon has the following statline with the following special rules.

When you cast this spell, your wizard becomes the Greater Fire Dragon. Remove the wizard and replace it with a Greater Fire Dragon. Items are not transfered.

To say the special rules carry over is to insert words and intentions where there is none.