PDA

View Full Version : Scariest unit in 8th



Ksarn
17-06-2010, 19:16
IMO this will be Empire Halberdiers in horde formation. The only unit that will outperform these is chaos marauders with GW. But if you look at the army as a whole the empire has mortars which will neutralise this. Do the numbers, they can beat any other infantry unit point for point if you include a mortar.

Reticent
17-06-2010, 19:19
Ogre cross-dressers.

Baggers
17-06-2010, 19:21
After my brief look at the book last night, I would have to say High Elf Swordmasters.

Ultimate Life Form
17-06-2010, 19:23
IMO this will be Empire Halberdiers in horde formation. The only unit that will outperform these is chaos marauders with GW. But if you look at the army as a whole the empire has mortars which will neutralise this. Do the numbers, they can beat any other infantry unit point for point if you include a mortar.

I have been thinking about this for quite a while but since you didn't give any points to justify your opinion I'm stuck following your argumentation, so all I can do is ask: what about Stormvermin?

Templar47
17-06-2010, 19:23
I agree with you on that. The empire is defenitly one of the armies that gained a lot from this edition, but instead of mortars, why not go for the big boys and use two Hellstorm Rocket batteries instead for the higher strength and bigger template :D.

The SkaerKrow
17-06-2010, 19:24
It's Saurus with Spears, by an incredible margin. Cheap enough to be fielded in good numbers, solid offensive and defensive performance, and nearly unbreakable as long as they're Steadfast.

Bac5665
17-06-2010, 19:29
Minotaurs. Not even close.

6 minotaurs w/greatweapons have insane damage output and get stronger every round of combat. Pure carnage.

The SkaerKrow
17-06-2010, 19:34
With the increase in shooting volume, along with the fact that they'll always be striking last with Great Weapons, six Minotaurs won't usually be around long enough to cause that much damage. Toughness 4 with a 6+ Save pretty much means that they evaporate against anything with Strength 4 or more.

Rochr
17-06-2010, 19:40
50 Khorne Marauders with GW, backed by a Warshrine or two.

Going to be pretty insane and cheap on points aswell.

CaliforniaGamer
17-06-2010, 19:45
50 Khorne Marauders with GW, backed by a Warshrine or two.

Going to be pretty insane and cheap on points aswell.

Frenzy is only going to give you an extra attack for the front row as "Supporting Attacks" special rule only ever allows 1 additional attack from the 2nd rank.

And if you goal is to have big Steadfast blocks of infantry, then you are matching up to lose combat in round 1, making Frenzy near worthless because you lose it right off.

No, that isnt scary at all.

Im guessing for Mauraders simple HW+Shield+LA along with MoTz giving them a 5+ Parry Ward Save would be a sick tarpit. Also GWs or flails in blocks of 30 might be effective as well. But hardly "scary".

minionboy
17-06-2010, 19:48
I'm going with 18 ironguts with command... 55 str 6 attacks!

But lots of things can be scary for 916 points.

jspyd3rx
17-06-2010, 19:48
So has this improved WOC and might they now have potential as a top Teir army?

CaliforniaGamer
17-06-2010, 19:48
Minotaurs. Not even close.

6 minotaurs w/greatweapons have insane damage output and get stronger every round of combat. Pure carnage.

Minotaurs were definetly written with 8th ed in mind...the usage in the coming battlefield which will be teeming with massive infantry blocks will be incredible.

Monstrous infantry get up to 3 supporting attacks (vs. 1 for standard infantry/cav) and they get stomp as well as impact hits.
That means 6 minotaurs with no command, no hero, etc is putting out: 18 Str5 attacks+ frenzy + 3 Str5 stomps, +3 Str5 impact hits. And growing each turn.

Arkh
17-06-2010, 19:52
30-40 pack of White Lions in horde formation or 6-8 pack of Treekin. Both are disgusting.

Swordmasters have a slightly higher damage output than the White Lions, but they are nowhere near as universally useful.

Godgolden
17-06-2010, 19:54
i think the maurauder block would benefit mroe from nurgle, grants them more survivability

but 50 ws 4, str 5 guys at 5 points a pop is nothing to snark at, you will shoot them loads but thats one cheap unit.

madden
17-06-2010, 19:58
I read in another thread that halberds are 2 handed now so any hits back will hurt alot as no shield useage, most dangerous unit should be 50 plauge monks and the furnace frenzied unbrakable, extra hand weapons and hoard plus skaven spells of plauge can be cast into cc in most cases, even if the priest explodes it'll hurt the enimie fun.

I. Nailo
17-06-2010, 20:01
I've been contemplating things that begin with L... like Lothern Seaguard.

They can fight in 4 ranks (5 if they go horde... which is kinda pricey), since they have front rank/second rank/spears/citizen levy.

Plus, they have bows, so they can fire in two full ranks, plus the half rank after that (or is it half of each rank after that? I've only skimmed the book).

So, Lothern Seaguard can put out a punishing amount of firepower, then follow up with a whithering number of melee attacks that ASF and have a great Initiative value (thus guaranteeing re-rolls to hit against a lot of armies). They won't survive very well when attacked back, but that's assuming they haven't already shot and speared the enemy unit half to death.

... I'm also rather fond of Eternal Guard(ians?) for Wood Elves. They get two hand weapons in the first rank, and then spears for each rank after that. So they can belt out just as many attacks as Seaguard with fewer ranks required, but lack the built-in ranged weapons and ASF of the Seaguard. They're good, but they're just an afterthought from skimming the WE army book today :)

Walgis
17-06-2010, 20:02
40 chaos knights :D
i mean who could take that? :D (exept the metal lore where 5+ poof unit = a gold) :D
40A S5 armoursave +1 plus -1 to hit :D

Djekar
17-06-2010, 20:12
I keep thinking that Eternal Guard came out the best from the WE book. I mean, they are already fielded in ridiculous numbers (certain builds have up to 50), and now they get an extra rank attacking and get to showcase their awesome I5 too.

Rochr
17-06-2010, 20:30
Frenzy is only going to give you an extra attack for the front row as "Supporting Attacks" special rule only ever allows 1 additional attack from the 2nd rank.

And if you goal is to have big Steadfast blocks of infantry, then you are matching up to lose combat in round 1, making Frenzy near worthless because you lose it right off.

No, that isnt scary at all.

Im guessing for Mauraders simple HW+Shield+LA along with MoTz giving them a 5+ Parry Ward Save would be a sick tarpit. Also GWs or flails in blocks of 30 might be effective as well. But hardly "scary".

I didn't say scary either now did I?

I never said that they get two attacks from the second rank either right?

I said it was pretty insane because they are 5 points a guy. Which other comparable unit is going to win combat over these guys? Empire Halberds? I doubt that.

Sorry but I just can't see another unit even comparable to marauders at 4 points in base.

Jagosaja
17-06-2010, 20:43
Black Coach. Can't be destroyed with S7 anymore and will drink power dice so fast (they are all in one pool now), he can be flying in third turn. All for 200 points. Damn scary!

Godgolden
17-06-2010, 20:44
40 chaos knights are 1600 pts, so the games going to be HUGE as they are special

50 chaos warriors with great weapons would take go toe to toe and for cheaper, propper, propper bloodbath though.

840pts with GW, slaanesh and command.

Maoriboy007
17-06-2010, 20:52
So has this improved WOC and might they now have potential as a top Teir army?

Quite easily, they were never really far off.


Black Coach. Can't be destroyed with S7 anymore and will drink power dice so fast (they are all in one pool now), he can be flying in third turn. All for 200 points. Damn scary!

True, although it works the other way as well, sucking up valuable VC dice.

kaintxu
17-06-2010, 21:20
It's Saurus with Spears, by an incredible margin. Cheap enough to be fielded in good numbers, solid offensive and defensive performance, and nearly unbreakable as long as they're Steadfast.

Depends if it finally allows them to attack on 2 full ranks plus the extra rank with just one attack or not


40 chaos knights :D
i mean who could take that? :D (exept the metal lore where 5+ poof unit = a gold) :D
40A S5 armoursave +1 plus -1 to hit :D

sure thats over 1600 on especial units, so you would have to be playing at least a 3200 game, pretty much undoable or unworthy

I can have 500 goblins with nets for the amount, or even better 400 and some bolt thrower and doom divers and your off.

Paraelix
17-06-2010, 21:25
IMO this will be Empire Halberdiers in horde formation. The only unit that will outperform these is chaos marauders with GW. But if you look at the army as a whole the empire has mortars which will neutralise this. Do the numbers, they can beat any other infantry unit point for point if you include a mortar.

But the game isn't about "my one unit vs your one unit". A single warmachine or spell hit could completely disable that unit. Hell, after a single shooting phase of 3 Salamanders with no partials, I don't expect there to be many Halberdiers left at all. Or similarly, if I cast the Fire Cage spell and do hits to the unit and then a hit to every model in the unit if it moves...

Hordes are good, but there are also a myriad of ways to utterly destroy them.


40 chaos knights
i mean who could take that? (exept the metal lore where 5+ poof unit = a gold)
40A S5 armoursave +1 plus -1 to hit
Again, I hit you with the Death spell that drops your Ld by 3, and then force panic tests. Once you're fleeing, I charge you, and you run off the table.

madden
17-06-2010, 21:28
Skaven spells wither -1 t then plauge pass t test or take wound no saves hello hoards then bye bye hoards.

stashman
18-06-2010, 00:06
40 Queek Stormvermins with shield and Full Command = 505 pts (WS5 S5)

minionboy
18-06-2010, 01:40
I'd still take my 6x3 unit of ironguts.

Rochr
18-06-2010, 02:03
I'd still take my 6x3 unit of ironguts.

Until they get Infernal Gateway'ed :D

Paraelix
18-06-2010, 02:42
10x5 Lothern Seaguard are looking pretty sexy.

Strike first, 50 attacks, Ws 4 rerolling to hit, S3.
35 Shots 24" Bs 4 S3

Tekomandor
18-06-2010, 03:13
Lothern Seaguard are looking real smexy; luckliy I have a stupid ammount of them

Piaevo
18-06-2010, 03:19
I'd still take my 6x3 unit of ironguts.

Yea I am starting to like this....

someone2040
18-06-2010, 03:22
Halfling Hotpots...
50 points of stone thrower death that still ignores armour.

Voss
18-06-2010, 03:24
Depends if it finally allows them to attack on 2 full ranks plus the extra rank with just one attack or not


Sat down with the book for several hours this afternoon and took notes.

Supporting ranks are 1 attack
Spears allow an additional supporting rank to fight. Same with the horde rule.
So sauruses with spears are getting 2 per model in first rank + 1 per model in second rank (+1 per model in third rank, if horde)


If you want real fun, try to figure out how the skaven giant rat units work in 8th ed. Then death frenzy them. The wording of their rule (and the packmasters whips!) in the army book makes this unit a serious concern in 8th. What counts as a supporting rank when the first, second and final rank are attacking?

Paraelix
18-06-2010, 03:34
Supporting ranks are 1 attack
Spears allow an additional supporting rank to fight. Same with the horde rule.
So sauruses with spears are getting 2 per model in first rank + 1 per model in second rank (+1 per model in third rank, if horde)


If you want real fun, try to figure out how the skaven giant rat units work in 8th ed. Then death frenzy them. The wording of their rule (and the packmasters whips!) in the army book makes this unit a serious concern in 8th. What counts as a supporting rank when the first, second and final rank are attacking?

Sadly, Spears have the "Fight in +1 Rank" which counts as supporting. And Giant Rats will more than likely be FAQd to be the same...

Ksarn
18-06-2010, 03:34
Spears I think still retain their own rules. I believe the book says attack in an extra rank. These are NOT supporting attacks so saurus would still get 2 for the second i think.

Voss
18-06-2010, 03:47
Spears I think still retain their own rules. I believe the book says attack in an extra rank. These are NOT supporting attacks so saurus would still get 2 for the second i think.

No. The book is quite clear. Spears grant the 'Fight in Extra Ranks' rule.
This allows for an additional rank of _supporting attacks_. As does the horde rule (and the Fight in Extra Ranks rule cites the horde rule to explicitly point out that they stack).

This question has come up enough that I copied down the rule verbatim, and could quote it if I didn't suspect it was against forum regs.

For infantry: first rank gets full attacks, second rank gets supporting attacks, spears and horde each allow an additional rank of supporting attacks. And infantry only get a single supporting attack per model. Not even if you are frenzied, not if you are sauruses, not if you have additional hand weapons. Not even if you are frenzied sauruses with additional hand weapons, the eye of the gods, the speed of light, and death frenzy. You get 1 attack per supporting model.

The only way _anything_ gets multiple attacks in supporting ranks is if they are monstrous infantry. (Or possibly monstrous cavalry or monstrous beasts, depending on if the text or reference chart in the back of the book are correct. Sigh.)

skelezom
18-06-2010, 04:52
I'm going to go out on a limb and say 50 dwarf rangers with a BSB close by and crossbows. That is a LOT of upclose crossbows normal shooting and standing and shooting. Alondg with T4 and armour, they will be hard to kill. Add in Bugman for more lulz, and the BSB so that they don't break. You could also add in throwing axes and all of that other stuff for giggles as well. Last, but not least, oathstones could prevent flanking for massive points prevention and a unit that can grab objectives before the game starts with scouting.

bernh
18-06-2010, 07:57
I keep thinking that Eternal Guard came out the best from the WE book. I mean, they are already fielded in ridiculous numbers (certain builds have up to 50), and now they get an extra rank attacking and get to showcase their awesome I5 too.

And also their 'awesome' S3, T3 and As 5+ for just 12 pts/model? :eyebrows:

minionboy
18-06-2010, 08:07
Lothern Seaguard are looking real smexy; luckliy I have a stupid ammount of them

Actually, I'm planning an army around 2 units of 50 of them. 51 attacks in combat, 35 shots a turn from ranged. Cast Flaming Sword of Rhuin on them so they're getting +1 to wound and flaming shots... Yummy...

Ronin_eX
18-06-2010, 08:08
I'm going to be modest and go with the Dwarf Grudge Thrower myself. What used to be one of the most effective pieces of artillery we had only got more so. Pop a Rune of Accuracy on it and two Runes of Penatrating and you can now drop S5(10) templates with pinpoint accuracy (even more with an engineer attached and he no longer takes slots up so you may as well). All that for 155 points is pretty nice and you can now pile them on in games. A battery of those will ruin even heavy infantry's day with a -2 ASM and partials hitting.

And with the size of horde units even a scatter will likely end up hitting something. Dwarf artillery is actually shaping up to be pretty nasty in its current incarnation. I'm going to have to go out and make sure I can field a battery of three grudge throwers to punish my O&G friend and his hordes. :D

And yes, rangers got a whole lot better this edition (which finally makes me glad I converted a bunch up, my keg wielding champion will hit the field and kick some **** for once).

Slashattack
18-06-2010, 08:48
The Cold One bus will still be one of the best units in the game. With a BSB and dreadlord in the plus the hydra banner it should still walk through most things on the battle field, plus it has the riders in the back rank attacking now. It may need another rank slammed on the back to absorb extra shooting damage, but its only another 135pts.

zuriel45
18-06-2010, 08:59
just running the numbers in my head, its already been said but 10x5 lotheran seaguard in horde will be sexy. Add in a couple mages one to throw the 5+ ward save on them, and the shadow (or is it death) mage to put the spell that replaces the current strength with iniative and you've suddenly got a high strenth unit with 50 attacks, scary indeed.

cptcosmic
18-06-2010, 09:02
Stormvermin are pretty good and cheap for their stats (and a really nice looking unit if you have the bell with it)

destroyerlord
18-06-2010, 09:32
I'm not buying that seaguard will be any good against chaos warriors. Sure, 35 shots is kinda nice, but in combat they simply can't hurt T4 3+/6++ save troops. (I work it out to be approximately 2 dead warriors, but I won't post the math).
You will need to have something rather more punishing sitting near by to deter my warriors, or these guys will crumple like paper.

edit: whoops, just realized its not +1 AS for parry anymore. It shouldn't make a difference to the numbers though.

danny-d-b
18-06-2010, 09:33
The hell storm rocket battry
thats going to rock socks

I was also possibly brining 6(3x2) DOs with Great weapons for a mass can opener effect- yep that will be 18 S7 attacks!!! with a 4+ armour save

or 6 (3x2) khone ogers with Great weapons and chaos armour- 24 S6 attacks with a 4+ armour save

the armour saves make them better than minotores in my view- and with chomp as well they should put of some serious hurt on smaller eleat units.

then I'll just get my mass marrauders for hoards!

Frankly
18-06-2010, 09:36
Black Coach. Can't be destroyed with S7 anymore and will drink power dice so fast (they are all in one pool now), he can be flying in third turn. All for 200 points. Damn scary!

Nice choice, it got some real buffs this Ed.

minionboy
18-06-2010, 09:42
The hell storm rocket battry
thats going to rock socks

I was also possibly brining 6(3x2) DOs with Great weapons for a mass can opener effect- yep that will be 18 S7 attacks!!! with a 4+ armour save

or 6 (3x2) khone ogers with Great weapons and chaos armour- 24 S6 attacks with a 4+ armour save

the armour saves make them better than minotores in my view- and with chomp as well they should put of some serious hurt on smaller eleat units.

then I'll just get my mass marrauders for hoards!

Monstrous Infantry only get 3 supporting attacks per model max, so those units of khorne ogres will only get 21 attacks.

Paraelix
18-06-2010, 09:44
I'm not buying that seaguard will be any good against chaos warriors. Sure, 35 shots is kinda nice, but in combat they simply can't hurt T4 3+/6++ save troops. (I work it out to be approximately 2 dead warriors, but I won't post the math).
You will need to have something rather more punishing sitting near by to deter my warriors, or these guys will crumple like paper.

edit: whoops, just realized its not +1 AS for parry anymore. It shouldn't make a difference to the numbers though.

Lore of fire- Flaming Sword. +1 to wound, magical flaming attacks.

Lore of Metal- Some spell. I believe +1 to hit or wound, Armour Piercing.

And plenty of spells in Shadow which drop stats, or Heavens which inflict or grant rerolls. And in case you forgot, you can pick any lore.

Hrolfr Varini
18-06-2010, 10:01
Halfling Hotpots...
50 points of stone thrower death that still ignores armour.

So now with 8th edition take up to 10 (Rare) Halfling hot pots in a 2000 point army ?

Bye Bye Infantry Blocks.

Wednesday Friday Addams
18-06-2010, 10:04
So now with 8th edition take up to 10 (Rare) Halfling hot pots in a 2000 point army ?

Bye Bye Infantry Blocks.

No because you can't take more then 3 of a kind in 2000 points.

*SQUEE*
18-06-2010, 10:07
So now with 8th edition take up to 10 (Rare) Halfling hot pots in a 2000 point army ?

Bye Bye Infantry Blocks.

If they are a rare slot then you can only have 2 in a 2000 point game. So cheap there is no reason not to take them however.

Wednesday Friday Addams
18-06-2010, 10:09
If they are a rare slot then you can only have 2 in a 2000 point game. So cheap there is no reason not to take them however.

There is no slots in 8th edition however there are rules to stop spaming of certain units that differ at certain point ranges

Spiney Norman
18-06-2010, 10:21
IMO this will be Empire Halberdiers in horde formation. The only unit that will outperform these is chaos marauders with GW. But if you look at the army as a whole the empire has mortars which will neutralise this. Do the numbers, they can beat any other infantry unit point for point if you include a mortar.

40-50 Halberdiers with a warrior priest sounds very tasty indeed
30 attacks = 15 hits + 7.5 more from re-rolls, roughly 11 unsaved wounds against T4 or 15 against T3. Plus the feel-good factor that 40 halbs + warrior priest is only slightly over 300pts. Add some detachments for screening/shooting support and you have a very hard to crack unit.

Kaelarr
18-06-2010, 10:22
Slots are still there, to determin how many duplicates you can have at various point levels.

Also you do not lose frenzy if you lose combat.

Kayosiv
18-06-2010, 10:28
Also you do not lose frenzy if you lose combat.

It seems like frenzy and hatred are losing all negative aspects of their rules... I don't think I like that.

ChaosVC
18-06-2010, 10:32
what is the rules for frenzy by the way? I assume hatred is still reroll to hit.

Dorack
18-06-2010, 11:02
Scariest unit? Longbeards horde, 50 strong. I dare you endure all that grumbling without loosing your sanity.

Lordsaradain
18-06-2010, 11:03
Im guessing for Mauraders simple HW+Shield+LA along with MoTz giving them a 5+ Parry Ward Save would be a sick tarpit.


Parry ward save doesnt stack...but MoT ward save does, so you can get a 5+ ward? Maybe Warriors with MoT isn't such a bad idea...

theweck
18-06-2010, 15:56
Night goblins with short bows. Attach BSB with spider banner. 70 goblins would be only marginally over 200 points, plus cost of BSB. Being a goblin BSB though, even that will not be too expensive. That is a lot of tiny little poisen sticks. If i remember correctly, the shortbows have better range in 8th, making this even scarier.

CaliforniaGamer
18-06-2010, 16:07
Parry ward save doesnt stack...but MoT ward save does, so you can get a 5+ ward? Maybe Warriors with MoT isn't such a bad idea...

Unless errata'd otherwise, WoC MoTz would stack with Parry making it 5+.

huge blocks of marauder+hW/shield+LA+MoTz will be fantastic tarpits.

Odin
18-06-2010, 16:10
I read in another thread that halberds are 2 handed now so any hits back will hurt alot as no shield useage

Halberds have always been 2-handed.

Frankly
18-06-2010, 16:20
Night goblins with short bows. Attach BSB with spider banner. 70 goblins would be only marginally over 200 points, plus cost of BSB. Being a goblin BSB though, even that will not be too expensive. That is a lot of tiny little poisen sticks. If i remember correctly, the shortbows have better range in 8th, making this even scarier.

yes yes yes, I've been spouting on about NGs with bows the ages! I hadn't heard on any range buffs for S.Bows ... fingers crossed.

orcs of fire
18-06-2010, 16:33
hundreds and hundreds of gnoblars backed up with an irongut or 20 ;)

DTimbro
18-06-2010, 16:53
I am mildly interested in seeing a horde formation of Grave Guard.

30+ attacks with killing blow, leave them with WS3 so they hit on 4s most of the time and give them the hatred banner to re-roll attacks. Average 5 killing blows with the first group of attacks, and 15 misses turn into another 2 killing blows. Add too that 10 hits and 5 more hits from the re-roll. Not a bad round of combat potential, and Vampires can presumably still replenish the group each magic phase.

Skyros
18-06-2010, 17:02
Skaven stormvermin or Marauders.

Both are superb value for their points with the new attack and stepping up rules.

Both will massacre empire halberdiers. (Empire state troops overall are rather overpriced, because of the detachment rules - currently the detachment rules don't work at all for 8th ed but the FAQ may change that quite a bit, so hard to say how things will shake up.)

Reticent
18-06-2010, 17:03
hundreds and hundreds of gnoblars backed up with an irongut or 20 ;)

If you drop the 20 Ironguts you can get another 480 Gnoblars....

tiger g
18-06-2010, 17:04
40x Flagellent warband led by a warrior priest

Skyros
18-06-2010, 17:04
Unless errata'd otherwise, WoC MoTz would stack with Parry making it 5+.

No, no it wouldn't.

The parry save explicitly says it doesn't stack with anything. For two items to stack, they *both* have to allow stacking. If either says 'no stacking' then they don't stack.

WoC MOTZ is always on. The parry ward save occurs after the MOTZ and only works against certain opponents to the front.

Skyros
18-06-2010, 17:05
40x Flagellent warband led by a warrior priest

Illegal formation, and flagellants are garbage in 8e anyway. 10 point naked WS2 T3 humans? They'd get ripped apart by night goblins with spears, let alone anything actually nasty.

Alltaken
18-06-2010, 17:46
I would love to see a horde unit of Ghouls 40 for instance. Thats 40 St3 poisoned attacks, chumps even some armored dudes.

Wiht ghoul kin vamp in there, could they get turn 1 charge on a lucky 12 roll?

Irish_Icicle
18-06-2010, 18:08
10x6 DE Warriors with Spears, Full Command, Banner of Murder = 460

Throw in a Cauldron of Blood to support them by giving them Killing Blow = 200

I think it has potential for a realatily low point cost. 41 re-rollable KB attacks is nothing to scoff at. They're at -1 to their AS if they're not KB'ed as well.

only downside it that they're still elves, S3/T3/5+ AS.

Odin
18-06-2010, 18:09
Illegal formation, and flagellants are garbage in 8e anyway. 10 point naked WS2 T3 humans? They'd get ripped apart by night goblins with spears, let alone anything actually nasty.

Yes, they won't survive long, but as long as there are enough left to fight back they will annihilate the unit that attacks them. I used a unit of 21 Flagellants using the new rules and they wiped out an entire unit of Black Knights in one round of combat.

And you're right they can't be joined by characters, so that would be an illegal formation. Having said that though, you can make them have hatred anyway! And possibly re-rolls to wound.

Sideros Peltarion
18-06-2010, 18:36
No, no it wouldn't.

The parry save explicitly says it doesn't stack with anything. For two items to stack, they *both* have to allow stacking. If either says 'no stacking' then they don't stack.

WoC MOTZ is always on. The parry ward save occurs after the MOTZ and only works against certain opponents to the front.

You are wrong about both items having to be able to stack. Talisman of protection doesn't stack itself but Tzeentch still stacks with it for a 5+ so it should work the same way with shields.

Kaleth
18-06-2010, 18:37
a 40 unit of frenzied corsairs in horde formation backed by a cauldron giving them killing blow with a bsb with ring of hotek and maybe even a dreadlord :)

ofc if all else fails who can counter the 2x hydras ? ;)

Hrolfr Varini
18-06-2010, 18:40
Dogs of War Light Cavalry with Volley Fire , all the bonuses of Fast Cavalry, free reforms, feigned flight, and now with Volley fire , they operate like Mongols (Bait, Flee, Isolate, Destroy). They are CORE units, no limits on how many you can take, oh joy !

beaumontbrawler
18-06-2010, 19:19
Marauders w/ GW

Greatswords

Halbediers

Storm Vermin

1A, so you're not paying for attacks you won't get in 2nd/3rd ranks.

Strong.

Relatively cheap.

Skyros
18-06-2010, 19:28
You are wrong about both items having to be able to stack. Talisman of protection doesn't stack itself but Tzeentch still stacks with it for a 5+ so it should work the same way with shields.

This is a completely incorrect viewing of the concept of 'cumulative' and 'stacking'.

To stack two effects, they both need to say they are cumulative, or that they stack. If even ONE says they dont' stack, then they don't stack.

Otherwise, I'm just going to claim you got MOTZ first, and THEN the parry save, which doesn't stack - so you're left with a 6+.

Col_Festus
18-06-2010, 19:43
I think Blood Knights will be wicked Scary under the new rules. Being able to test to restrain frenzy with a reroll if a BSB is nearby coupled with a generals 10 leadership means they are charging what you want... and causing massive damage. I see them eating a lot of tough enemy units... such as steam tanks, war alters, hellpits, Hydras and the like.... And if they flank something they wont break it via ranks/stubborn but they sure as hell will take a giant chunk out of them. Being able to raise them lets you play the attrition game too once you get stuck in... nom nom nom.

Sideros Peltarion
18-06-2010, 19:44
This is a completely incorrect viewing of the concept of 'cumulative' and 'stacking'.

To stack two effects, they both need to say they are cumulative, or that they stack. If even ONE says they dont' stack, then they don't stack.

Otherwise, I'm just going to claim you got MOTZ first, and THEN the parry save, which doesn't stack - so you're left with a 6+.

When has the talisman of protection or any other ward save item ever said they are cumulative? As far as I am aware Tzeentch is the only ward save in the game which does stack and the fact that it specifically states that if you have a ward save, which a shield now provides just like a talisman of protection (albeit only in combat) it gives you a +1 bonus to the save. And you can't argue that it doesn't work because you start with the Tzeentch save because it works on spells which only provide their bonus after casting.

Therefore shield gives 6++ which is improved to 5++ by Tzeentch as it does with every other ward save that Chaos characters/units can get

Skyros
18-06-2010, 23:12
Therefore shield gives 6++ which is improved to 5++ by Tzeentch as it does with every other ward save that Chaos characters/units can get

Wrong. The parry save explicitly says it doesn't stack with other saves.

You can't stack your tzeentch save on top of the parry save, you can't stack your parry save on top of the tzeentch save.

If you are trying to stack two things, if even ONE of them says it doesn't stack, then you can't combine them.

Laton
19-06-2010, 00:11
For a brawl that last more than one round I suggest 18-24 (6x3, 6x4) Chaos Warriors with halberds, 19 WS5, S5 attacks with I5 + excellent armor saves (3+ if shot at, 4+ in melee, 3+/6+ if you choose HW&S) and toughness 4 ensure lots of bloody rounds.
Throw in any mark if you want them extra spicy.

Spinocus
19-06-2010, 08:49
Sat down with the book for several hours this afternoon and took notes.

Supporting ranks are 1 attack
Spears allow an additional supporting rank to fight. Same with the horde rule.
So sauruses with spears are getting 2 per model in first rank + 1 per model in second rank (+1 per model in third rank, if horde)


If you want real fun, try to figure out how the skaven giant rat units work in 8th ed. Then death frenzy them. The wording of their rule (and the packmasters whips!) in the army book makes this unit a serious concern in 8th. What counts as a supporting rank when the first, second and final rank are attacking?

The Giant Rats' special 'Wave of Rats' rule effectively serves as their own spears rule of a sort, except it allows them to attack with that extra rank on the charge. Since the Skaven 7th ed was written with 8th Ed BRB in mind I don't see this rule being nerfed by the 8th ed Skaven errata/FAQ. Basically Giant Rats 'should' be able to attack in three ranks at all times. Factor in Packmaster whip attacks from the fourth rank and you're effectively looking at the effects of the Horde formation rule on a smaller scale. 21 Giants Rats + 4 Packmasters arrayed 5 wide = 19 attacks, one attack short of the full 'Horde' effect. Oh, and that same unit costs a mere 95 points... :angel:

Upgrade a Packmaster to Master Moulder (Ld 6) and the unit gets Ld 9 due to Strength in Numbers rule which it should be able to use for the new 8th ed Stubborn.

Obviously casting Death Frenzy or Blessed with Filth on that same Giant Rat unit will make it obscenely powerful.

Add all that to M6 and Giant Rats become one of if not the most cost effective unit in 8th ed and arguably the best unit in the Skaven army.

Scariest unit? Not really. However I think you could make a strong argument that Giant Rats will be the 'most unsettling' unit in 8th ed. Watch for an unsettling amount of Giant Rat spam in lists...

Gorak
19-06-2010, 09:09
40 Bloodletters of Khorne @ 535 pts (Fullcommand; skull totem)

ok so hoard this out! up to 19 ws 5 str 5 int 5 attacks againts 5 -20mm wide, more if 25 mm add a hearld(sorry skull taker no locust) and you have hatred! Maxx attacks(don't think it would happen) 31! oh and 5+3d6" on the first charge!

ROCKY
19-06-2010, 09:19
After my brief look at the book last night, I would have to say High Elf Swordmasters.

then u will know that they are I5 and that according to the rumors, asf and asl will cancel each other out? that means they will have difficulties against chaos warriors, black guard, or hell any unit with asf. (take a unit of 30 corsairs with extra hand weapons and the frenzy banner, stick in a death hag with the asf banner and they will tear swordmasters to shreds :/)

Mach_5
19-06-2010, 09:50
In a 2250pt battle you can take a unit of 17 mino's with GW's, standard and musician. They clock in at just under the 50% special limit (1101pts). They'll get Horde, so going 6 wide with room for a minotaur character they'll all be fighting (3 attacks from the rear ranks, full attacks from the front).

Let me see, so on the charge that'll be 5 S-5 impact hits, D3 impact hits from the character, 6 stomp auto-hits at I-1, and 56 ASL GW attacks unless they suffer some casualties (entirely possible), plus the character's attacks. Oh, and for sh!ts and giggles, maybe the character is a gorebull BSB carrying the 'reroll attacks' banner (can't remember if this was just hatred or not, I'd hope so...)

Add 6 more attacks after the first won combat, another 6 after the second, another 6 after the third.....

soots
19-06-2010, 10:07
Skaven: Giant Rats in horde formation. 50 attacks for 185 pts.

Frgt/10
19-06-2010, 10:50
Black Coach. Can't be destroyed with S7 anymore and will drink power dice so fast (they are all in one pool now), he can be flying in third turn. All for 200 points. Damn scary!

black coach because:

- cant be insta killed by str 7
- due to the way pool dice are generated it sucks in A LOT more dice a turn, meaning it is very easy to have it at full power in 2 turns
- when it hits level 3 it has a 1+ ward save against magic due to magic resistance changes (adds 3 to its standard 4+ ward)
- when it hits level 5 it is also ethereal, and as magic cant really scratch it due to the above, only magic weapons will have a realistic chance of hurting it.

im taking 2 :D

cptcosmic
19-06-2010, 10:56
For a brawl that last more than one round I suggest 18-24 (6x3, 6x4) Chaos Warriors with halberds, 19 WS5, S5 attacks with I5 + excellent armor saves (3+ if shot at, 4+ in melee, 3+/6+ if you choose HW&S) and toughness 4 ensure lots of bloody rounds.
Throw in any mark if you want them extra spicy.
if you have halberds, you have to use it in 8., you cant choose between HW+S and Halberd anymore ;)

Lordy
19-06-2010, 11:03
Chaos Warriors with Mark of Khorne and ASF now will be rediculous, Same with a block of 12 Chaos Knights with banner of rage and mark of nurgle, they don't even need characters with them.

Leth Shyish'phak
19-06-2010, 16:19
How are Chaos Warriors getting ASF...?

Kerill
19-06-2010, 16:33
I think they mean due to high initiative so they will strike before most things.

Units of 60 skavenslaves with spears will be damn nasty and a pain for anything to get rid of for 150 points whilst skaven can throw other nastiness into the mix and not worry about the death of some slaves.

If speed of asuryan trumps always strikes last then swordmasters will be nasty indeed.

To be honest any horde cheap troop will be much better in this edition- skaven, marauders, goblins, DE spears. He spearmen are going to be one of the best units for taking all the dross them down as well.

Template weapons are going to be key for taking down massive units.

dragonet111
19-06-2010, 16:33
With a banner from the rulebook I think.

Emeraldw
19-06-2010, 16:35
then u will know that they are I5 and that according to the rumors, asf and asl will cancel each other out? that means they will have difficulties against chaos warriors, black guard, or hell any unit with asf. (take a unit of 30 corsairs with extra hand weapons and the frenzy banner, stick in a death hag with the asf banner and they will tear swordmasters to shreds :/)

Supposedly a leaked Errata goes with the interpretation that ASF is not lost by High Elves wielding great weapons. Further, even though people read the RAW differently in the rumor thread, most agree that they will rule in favor of ASF on Great Weapon High Elves.

madden
19-06-2010, 16:48
If they survive my corsairs with hand bow shooting 10 wide 2 ranks lots of shots as they pistol type they hit chargers on 4 's s3 isn't much but it will hurt alot.

Coldblood666
19-06-2010, 17:00
40+ Stormvermin led by Queek. Upgrade the Stormvermin with the +1ws and +1 strength. Throw a Warlord with a bonebreaker mount into the unit too. Stormvermin got initiative 5 and Queek and a Warlord got initiative 7. Not to mention the Bonebreaker will throw in a stomp at the end. Augment the unit further with the banner of the Under empire (2d6 strength 2 auto hits at the start of every combat). Could be nasty.

Frgt/10
19-06-2010, 17:06
Supposedly a leaked Errata goes with the interpretation that ASF is not lost by High Elves wielding great weapons. Further, even though people read the RAW differently in the rumor thread, most agree that they will rule in favor of ASF on Great Weapon High Elves.

correct
it states in the rulebook that army rules supersede the rulebook EXCEPT for army composition, which uses the new percentage system.
of course we'll probably get an FAQ clarification when it gets released as well

TsukeFox
19-06-2010, 19:02
No one likes the idea of 12 trolls?