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Melion
18-06-2010, 02:51
After having been collecting and painting Necrons for a while now, I want to contiune on my Ultramarines I got but alas, I'm tired of having Ultramarines because so many others got them aswell.

So, wanting to change my chapter, I want a balanced chapter that got both good CC units and shooters too.

So which chapter should I use instead? Space Wolfes? Blood Angels? Etc.

Help is appreciate.

Wolf Lord Balrog
18-06-2010, 03:02
Space Wolves definitely. We're Space Marines, but we think for ourselves and we kick everything's ass. :)

And there's the ale and the cool fur cloaks too. :D

Garven Dreis
18-06-2010, 03:11
Black Templars. No-one, not even Space Wolves, are as badass as the Black Templars.

The Inevitable One
18-06-2010, 03:24
As far as balance goes, the generic Space Marines are the best bet. Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Black Templars, and Dark Angels are not balanced in terms of close combat and range. The first three being close combat oriented and Dark Angels being a ranged army (with a few exceptions).

So you have Imperial Fists, White Scars, Iron Hands, Salamanders, and Raven Guard that are the only balanced Legions. They are balanced in game, but in lore/fluff/history/etc. they follow certain tactics such as siege (Imperial Fists), use of mechanics (Iron Hands), lightning raids (Raven Guard), White Scars (Bikes and other fast units), and close-quarter fire fights (Salamanders).

All of the Chapters/Legions listed above are not played as much compared to say Space Wolves or Ultramarines, so if you like to stand out from the crowd I would pick one of those.

If you don't like the Legions listed about there are always other Chapters out there like the Crimson Fists and such that you can always pick.

This is a link to a list of Chapters that you can choose from:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/List_of_Space_Marine_Chapters

If not then you can always make up your own unique Chapter. If you need anymore help, just ask.

Good luck on picking your new Chapter!

snakezenn
18-06-2010, 03:32
I agree with inevitable, the only ones that are truly a balanced force seems to be the chapters out of the main space marine dex

Melion
18-06-2010, 09:16
As far as balance goes, the generic Space Marines are the best bet. Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Black Templars, and Dark Angels are not balanced in terms of close combat and range. The first three being close combat oriented and Dark Angels being a ranged army (with a few exceptions).

So you have Imperial Fists, White Scars, Iron Hands, Salamanders, and Raven Guard that are the only balanced Legions. They are balanced in game, but in lore/fluff/history/etc. they follow certain tactics such as siege (Imperial Fists), use of mechanics (Iron Hands), lightning raids (Raven Guard), White Scars (Bikes and other fast units), and close-quarter fire fights (Salamanders).

All of the Chapters/Legions listed above are not played as much compared to say Space Wolves or Ultramarines, so if you like to stand out from the crowd I would pick one of those.

If you don't like the Legions listed about there are always other Chapters out there like the Crimson Fists and such that you can always pick.

This is a link to a list of Chapters that you can choose from:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/List_of_Space_Marine_Chapters

If not then you can always make up your own unique Chapter. If you need anymore help, just ask.

Good luck on picking your new Chapter!

I checked your suggestions and I fell in love with Iron Hands. I like the color scheme and I have been thinking to make a mechanised army so Iron Hands fits perfectly. Thanks for the tips.

While on the topic, how will I do with the painting? Mind you that I'm a beginner so what I have been using on my Necrons are pretty much only Drybrushing and Highlightning. Seeing that Iron Hands are mostly black, can I just use the Chaos Black spray as a base color and just add details later?

enigma-96
18-06-2010, 09:19
Go Iron Hands, not only are they THE RAREST space marine chapter in terms of people who play it (In an official poster by GW that showed the founding chapters the Iron Hands were missing and the Crimson Fists were there instead,....lol sigh) also you can easily use spare necron bitz to convert the Hands up. lol Ninja.

Ummmmm I think youtube has a few good tutorials on making black look nice.... not sure but I think GirlPainting did a BLack Templar video that should apply for Handz as well (just replace white with mettalics.)

Note: Don't just base coat then add details, at least paint chaos black over the spray paint, since the spray is REALLY dull looking while CB is somewhat shiny.

Giganthrax
18-06-2010, 09:42
Angry Marines, of course.

Ba'al Starslayer
18-06-2010, 09:44
As far as balance goes, the generic Space Marines are the best bet. Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Black Templars, and Dark Angels are not balanced in terms of close combat and range. The first three being close combat oriented and Dark Angels being a ranged army (with a few exceptions).


One would be mistaken to count Black Templars as a combat-based force. Granted, they have no access to Whirlwinds or Devastators (Which aren't even used in any other Marine armies anyway...) but they can call upon the vast majority of firepower which makes the Space Marines famous. Vindicators, Predators and Land Raiders are all available.
Where Black Templars excel is in combat. Think normal Marine-esque firepower, but with a choice of army-wide Scouts, army-wide Preferred Enemy, army-wide 6++ or army-wide S5 I3!
Black Templars really are a force to be reckoned with.

sigur
18-06-2010, 11:25
Have a look at a list of SM chapters on Lexicanum or Wikipedia and you will find what you are looking for. I suggest not going with BA or SW because you will get "flak" and I suppose they surely are not rarer than Ultramarines.

Melion
18-06-2010, 13:49
Hm, how many do you think actually plays Black Templars? Iron Hands are cool but having a whole different codex from the normal Space Marines like the Black Templars got is something I also kinda want.

So far I'm leaning towards Black Templars. :)

Red_Dog
18-06-2010, 14:37
Space Wolves definitely. We're Space Marines, but we think for ourselves and we kick everything's ass. :)

And there's the ale and the cool fur cloaks too. :D

And the big axes, and the wolves, and the big beards,...

I just started Space Wolves and that's pretty much why :D

Zombie Savant
18-06-2010, 16:28
At the OP: Painting black can be tricky. The issue with it is that in reality, anything black that you see isn't *truly* black. There's usually some kind of a dark blue or gray that is somewhat of a base for it. As such, it can be kind of a process to make a black model that isn't completely flat, as you have to build it up.

I would suggest that you do a highlight of shadow gray, followed by codex gray, followed by a 1:1 mix of codex gray and fortress gray. Do this on all the edges of the armor, and then pick out appropriate details in boltgun metal with mithril silver highlights.

I'm using a similar technique for my Iron Hands successor chapter.

The Inevitable One
18-06-2010, 17:24
Hm, how many do you think actually plays Black Templars? Iron Hands are cool but having a whole different codex from the normal Space Marines like the Black Templars got is something I also kinda want.

So far I'm leaning towards Black Templars. :)

Since Black Templars have their own codex, I would presume that they have a fair few people playing them. Not as many compared to Blood Angels but more than the regular Space Marines.

There are a few things you are going to encounter if you play Black Templars. Before you are able to fight it is mandatory that you take a Emperor's Champion. I think it is a HQ but does not take up any slots on the organization chart. Also if any of your men in a squad/unit are killed they have to move up to six inches towards the closest enemy unit (I think it is called Righteous or Zealous Fury). It is considered a good and bad thing because you could fight an army that is not very good at close combat like the Tau or you could go against pure close combat races/armies like Tyranids or Orks.

On the up side you are able to take Neophytes (Scouts) in your Tactical Squads which can make it larger and more effective (using them as fillers). Not only that but you can customize your Emperor's Champion with vows.

Once again good luck with choosing.

Meleth
18-06-2010, 18:51
At the OP: Painting black can be tricky. The issue with it is that in reality, anything black that you see isn't *truly* black. There's usually some kind of a dark blue or gray that is somewhat of a base for it. As such, it can be kind of a process to make a black model that isn't completely flat, as you have to build it up.

I would suggest that you do a highlight of shadow gray, followed by codex gray, followed by a 1:1 mix of codex gray and fortress gray. Do this on all the edges of the armor, and then pick out appropriate details in boltgun metal with mithril silver highlights.

I'm using a similar technique for my Iron Hands successor chapter.

I found Black Templars look very well pure black with just codex and fortress grey highlights and they are reasonably fast to paint this way too, it has a very stylised look and with all the detail and white shoulder pads has a lovely contrast too. Not sure if Iron Hands will work just so pure black though!

Personally I think Black Templars are probably my favourite models, but the book is pretty out of date, if you're looking to play with codex space marines instead Crimson fists are a good choice, still blue like ultramarines but darker and much less common.

I also have a Space Wolf Force but I hate working with greys!

FabricatorGeneralMike
18-06-2010, 19:08
I would personally go with IronHands, they are easy to paint and with a few odds and ends like some plastic piping and guitar strings for power cables and bionic parts you can make a real unique looking force on the cheap. I went to the local music store and asked if they had any old guitar strings laying around and he handed me a handful for free.... I've got enough guitar string to last me for a while.

Personally I am either going to do IH or Crimson Fists in post heresy armour.

Also read the thread on here about 40k on the cheap, there are some good ideas in there also.

Good luck with whatever army you do.

druchii
18-06-2010, 19:10
Since Black Templars have their own codex, I would presume that they have a fair few people playing them. Not as many compared to Blood Angels but more than the regular Space Marines.

There are a few things you are going to encounter if you play Black Templars. Before you are able to fight it is mandatory that you take a Emperor's Champion. I think it is a HQ but does not take up any slots on the organization chart. Also if any of your men in a squad/unit are killed they have to move up to six inches towards the closest enemy unit (I think it is called Righteous or Zealous Fury). It is considered a good and bad thing because you could fight an army that is not very good at close combat like the Tau or you could go against pure close combat races/armies like Tyranids or Orks.

On the up side you are able to take Neophytes (Scouts) in your Tactical Squads which can make it larger and more effective (using them as fillers). Not only that but you can customize your Emperor's Champion with vows.

Once again good luck with choosing.

They actually don't HAVE to move the distance. Since it is treated as a consolidation move (I think that's the phrasing) they MAY move that distance. Which is important because people aren't able to shoot a squad, and draw them off an objective with an untimely Righteous Zeal move.

d

Hood
18-06-2010, 23:29
Greetings Melion and welcome to the forums!

I can't actually suggest what should be your next Marine Chapter since I don't really know your taste and I don't know as much as I'd like about all the other chapters. One thing I can do, is try to point out many of the important advantages and disadvantages to you.

Black Templars are a close combat oriented army and as such, trying to use bolter/heavy weapon squads in them won't really do the trick or at least not as good as fielding CCW/Pistol troops. This is an important point to concider while chosing this chapter. As some of the previous members have noted, BT can take vows, notably the one giving prefered enemy to your units which will grant them a reroll on they melee hits. Due to the Reroll vow BT have one of the best Assault Terminators layout. By fielding Lightning Claw terminators you get to reroll both your hits and your wounds (of a powerweapon nonetheless) and since you can give them furious charge that makes them even more deadly. The Emperor's Champion, although an obligatory HQ choise after 750pt list, does not take up a HQ slot (even though it counts as one) and his stats (6str 6ws etc) along with the vow he provides for the whole army (even if he dies) make him a really effective tool. The ability to take Neophytes in your troops makes for a interesting and fun way to play Black Templars as footsloggers and provide you with the option to take 20-man troops or even more in some cases! The BT tri-lascannon predator is cheaper and you also get a better chaplain layout compared to other chapters. The codex also provides two special characters for the chapter which can be very fun to play as well as deadly. Some of the equipment options for your units are changed (usually to your advantage) such as terminators squads equipped two assault cannons. The Righteous Zeal ability will allow you to advance more quickly towards your enemies that try to gun you down. The Righteous Zeal movement is not obligatory and you may chose how far you will move (so you are not forced away from objectives). The smoke launcher used by the BT codex differ from the generic ones and will provide an all-hits-treated-as-glancing umbrella for your vehicles which can be crusial for an assaulting army such as BT. The iconography and the chapter upgrade kit will provide you with a very good-looking army. The theme can be as simple as Black & white or you can make it more complex by using colors for details and iconography.

Like every other army and specially those who excel in one particular aspect, Black Templars have their drawbacks. Their assault-oriented nature deprives them of options such as devastator squads and scouts as well as wirlwinds, reedemers and other fire-based units and equipment. Also you will find that due to the age of the codex there are certain advantages the chapter lacks as well as some point cost differences within your units, compared to more recently released chapter codeces. The codex might seem to lack the amount of special rules other chapters might get (wolves and Blood angels in particular) but that doesn't reduce its effectiveness as much as others will let you believe. There are a couple of rules that might seem to handicap the player. BT infantry units must target the nearest enemy to shoot or otherwise roll a Ld test with -1. Righteous Zeal is a morale test and as such failing it will cause you to retreat. Your infantry units must assault an enemy unit if they are found able to do so (this can be easily avoided by running or moving in the previous phases) but in any case you usually want to charge yourself if you are capable of doing so. Although these seem to be disadvantages they add character to the chapter and a fun challenge in using this army. You will also get the option to use an elite squad of sword-brethren but according to most BT players it is rather costy and usually of no use (but it does have nice models! :)) The power of the machine spirit can not be used to shoot a weapon if the vehicle moved more than 6". The points spend on the Emperor's champion might somewhat hinder you from taking another HQ choice (although he is worth it).

Generally the Black Templars are a very effective and fun army to play once you learn how to use them. They are not meta-game and not as competitive as recently updated codeces but they can still be competitive enough to allow you a good gaming experience. Many concider them out-dated in term of their codex but they are far from being that. They may seem hard to play but once you know how to use their advantages they can compete with any enemy.

Sorry for the text-wall and I hope you found this enlightening! :)

Melion
19-06-2010, 00:28
Greetings Melion and welcome to the forums!

*Snippety snip*

Sorry for the text-wall and I hope you found this enlightening! :)

By Khorne! Thanks for giving me so much info about Black Templars. :D

I have always been the *outsider* when it comes to picking teams and such (Which explains that I picked Necrons as my first main army :P )

I have always been a little more shooter guy but I wanted atleast a good balance with CC units and shooty units (seriously, seeing a heavy bolter and/or assault cannon gives me a raging erection everytime) but seeing that pretty much only normal marines can only get that seems kinda boring, like how I don't wanna play Ultramarines.

I am falling more in love with Black Templars now and I'm seriously considering picking them now.

I'll see when I get to my final verdict. ;)

susu.exp
19-06-2010, 01:42
At the OP: Painting black can be tricky. The issue with it is that in reality, anything black that you see isn't *truly* black. There's usually some kind of a dark blue or gray that is somewhat of a base for it. As such, it can be kind of a process to make a black model that isn't completely flat, as you have to build it up.

Well, the color in black depends on a few factors. Black paint is usually a mix of various pigments and they donīt neccessarily cover equally well. What you may be thinking about are shadows, which tend to look blueish on earth. Thatīs because light is refracted in the atmosphere and this refraction is wave-lenght dependent (simply put, the light that does diffuse into shaddows is the same color as the sky). There also absorption to consider which can alter this, as well as the light the sun emitts in the first place. Now, if you want to do something realistic for earth, you add blue to your shaddows and blacks. But in 40k there are different planets. If you wanted realism for Venus, youīd have to add yellow. If you wanted realism for earth in the Jurassic, youīd have to add green (how do you know the people making TV shows with animated dinosaurs donīt think it through completely? The sky is blue...).
So with a galaxy at hand, blue is not the only realistic option.

Iīve found the washes to be excellent. I usually mix a very dark color, just slightly off-black using some other paint. Then I apply a wash in the complimentary color. I.e. a very dark green (10:1 mix of Chaos black and Dark Angels green) with a Baal Red wash. Or a very dark orange (10:1 again) with a Blue wash. Or a very dark yellow with a Purple wash.

Xyrex
19-06-2010, 01:45
Dark angels! We have robes beotches!!!

Hood
19-06-2010, 08:33
Oh! And don't forget.........

Papa Sigismund wants you! (http://i737.photobucket.com/albums/xx11/melchiah3/IwantyoufortheCrusade.jpg) :p

fwacho
21-06-2010, 03:44
dark angels are nice. you can run it as bikes and terminators. low model count (easy to paint). Very tough. (5T bikes and 3+ invules on turbo) and termies. They are bit of a scalpel as opposed to a broad sword. you have to know what you are doing and you get move them around a lot. and as stated before... robes.

Charistoph
21-06-2010, 05:43
I have always been a little more shooter guy but I wanted atleast a good balance with CC units and shooty units (seriously, seeing a heavy bolter and/or assault cannon gives me a raging erection everytime) but seeing that pretty much only normal marines can only get that seems kinda boring, like how I don't wanna play Ultramarines.

Actually, the Black Templar Codex can fit a lot more Assault Cannons in their army then the Ultramarine Codex, as every unit of Infantry can take Land Raider Crusaders as Dedicated Transports, EVERY unit of Infantry. Also, Crusader and Sword Brethren can both take Heavy Bolters. Most Templar commanders don't because their squads are much nastier on the move into Assault then standing back shooting.

Make no mistake, though, the only shooting disadvantage that the Templar codex really has over the other Marine Codecies is their lack of Devastator squads and artillery units.

And of course, you could create your own chapter, a successor of the Iron Hands, but still use the Black Templar codex for your army.

Zingbaby
21-06-2010, 05:50
Iron Hands are pretty cool... I know maxmini did release some new mechanical arms and such and GW does have an Iron Hand set as well...

Ba'al Starslayer
21-06-2010, 09:42
Lack of Devastators and Whirlwinds aren't even that much of a downside. The positives far outweigh the negatives. Also, the "Kill Them All!" rule is (As far as I'm aware) not in effect now since Target Priority since the rule specifically says that Black Templars have -1Ld when rolling for Target Priority and, since there is no such rule, they do not need to test for it anymore.

Hood
21-06-2010, 12:27
Lack of Devastators and Whirlwinds aren't even that much of a downside. The positives far outweigh the negatives. Also, the "Kill Them All!" rule is (As far as I'm aware) not in effect now since Target Priority since the rule specifically says that Black Templars have -1Ld when rolling for Target Priority and, since there is no such rule, they do not need to test for it anymore.

True... We would like to believe that as well and we did when 5th came out but soon after an errata followed which specified that the rule still apllies to BT and they have to roll a -1 Ld test when shooting a target other than the closest (good thing vehicles are unaffected, since the do most of the serious shooting). I think they left it there mostly for the fluff.

Ba'al Starslayer
21-06-2010, 13:19
Which Errata is this?

Hood
21-06-2010, 15:36
Which Errata is this?

The one that can be found in the -Gaming > Errata and FAQ Articles- section of the 40k page in games workshop site. It's according to the 5th edition (2006) and I don't know any newer than that...

Godzooky
21-06-2010, 16:02
Dark angels! We are robed beotches!!!

Fixed that for you, buddio... :shifty:

ltsobel
21-06-2010, 16:33
Go Lamenters :P i would if i could paint their damn heraldry.

Dronevil
21-06-2010, 17:36
Go for something from the main Codex: Space Marines. That way you know you will always have an up-to-date codex!

_dandaman_
21-06-2010, 18:57
How about chaos, were exactly like Marines, except way way way way cooler!

Icraig33
11-07-2010, 03:41
Like what some people have said before me, you might want the Iron Hands, since you would be original and stick out from the crowd.

However, if you don't want a chapter that time forgot, you can always take a chapter that are more well-known.

I personally like the Salamanders.

dodicula
11-07-2010, 04:25
Imperial fists, it takes a boss to pain their armor yellow.

WolfGuardChris
11-07-2010, 09:22
After having been collecting and painting Necrons for a while now, I want to contiune on my Ultramarines I got but alas, I'm tired of having Ultramarines because so many others got them aswell.

So, wanting to change my chapter, I want a balanced chapter that got both good CC units and shooters too.

So which chapter should I use instead? Space Wolfes? Blood Angels? Etc.

Help is appreciate.

Haha that's really funny since I've never seen a ultramarines army but I've seen 8 SW and BA armies including my own.

It's okay you can just say you want to play the new hotness. No one will care.

Corax
12-07-2010, 00:06
This really comes down to two things:

1. Rules - Which Codex you want to use?

2. Painting - Which colour scheme do you want to use?

If you want to use one of the specialised Codecies (BA, BT, DA, SW), then that limits your choices pretty well straight of the bat. The only one that offers you a wide array of possible Chapters to play is the main SM Codex. If you want to look at the available options for that, check out Lexicanum's list of Space Marine Chapters.