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View Full Version : Post game 1 of 8th. A lizard's perspective



Sparowl
18-06-2010, 09:22
My local store has their preview copy out, and the owner is using me for preview games to show people the rules. I figured I'd share some first hand experience with everyone.

We played a 2500 game, Lizardmen vs DE.

First of all, movement: No more difficult terrain means that units shoot across the board much faster. We had 8 pieces of terrain (3 forest, 2 building, 2 obelisks and a hill), and I had some turn 2 charges with my Saurus warriors due to my opponent advancing, and was heavily in combat turn 3.

This was also caused by charge ranges now being M+2d6. It did average out quite often to 6-8 inchs on the dice, so 10 to 12 inch charges. Which is still insanely faster then Saurus went before. And I did manage one double 6 for charge range, for a huge 16 inchs (of course, I was within 9 inchs, and didn't need it, but still).

Skirmishers losing 360 didn't seem as bad as it originally appeared. Free reforms on skirmishers allowed me to get the skinks where they needed to be, and being able to march and shoot with javalins meant that fast cav is still going to fear my skinks.

Being able to march with a leadership check even when march-blocked was good the few times I tried it, but most of the time I was charging when around enemy models.

Magic: I'm still not sure I've adjusted my brain to how big of a change this is. No consistency in number of dice means you can't count on magic as part of your army. I went from having 3 dice one phase to having 11 the next. The Slann's extra dice (you knew we would be taking that) meant that I could work a little bit more in, but its still rough.

We saw two miscasts. His DE sorc miscast and killed about 6 spearmen around her (small template miscast). My slann miscast, but was able to chuck it off using the Cupped Hands of the Old Ones. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to hand the miscast over to his sorc, but I do believe that item will soon become even more of a required item for anyone with a slann.

Also, choosing your lore at army selection takes away some versatility. I'll be taking Life, but I miss being able to switch up depending on who I'm facing.

Shooting: Facing Dark Elf crossbow lines hurt. 2 lines of 7 guys, launching 28 shots (double shot on xbws) is a lot of shots. Sure, he needed 5s to hit (long range, double shot), but its still a lot of arrows.

On the other hand, Large Target no longer gives the enemy +1 to hit. This is huge. Stegadons everywhere, rejoice! Also, I guess anything else that is a large target can be happy. However, that does mean that skink shooting isn't as effective against large targets anymore.

Combat: Saurus Warriors are good. No, I'm serious. Gone are the days where I'd watch as my return attacks slowly dwindled as my opponent made his attacks. Now, after his attacks are done, Saurus warriors get to eat some dudes, take some names, and sometimes swing combat back to a win.

Also, Saurus finally do get to go before great weapons (traditionally, I always got charges by them and had to watch them go first anyway). Although a very specialized circumstance, my Saurus were able to reduce incoming attacks by killing off the GW wielding Shades before they swung. I felt like I finally understood what had been happening to my Saurus all these years.

Combat res hasn't changed horribly. Obviously, its odd not figuring out who outweighs who, but the charging player does get +1 (I even managed to get an additional +1 for charging down a hill). Also, being in flank or rear doesn't require any sort of rank or unit strength, you just have to be there.

On the other hand, units with more ranks you then being stubborn can make life a pain. Luckily, Saurus can chew up ranks pretty quick with all those attacks.

The free reform after winning combat is ridiculous. No longer are the days of winning combat, having to spend your next turn turning around in order to charge (or more likely, get charged). Apparently GW wants to reinforce the concept of "Winners get to keep going".

One last on combat. Saurus inside of buildings are really good. I highly recommend it.

Scenarios: We ended up playing scenario 4, which involves Fortitude, breaking points, banners and generals. I ended up winning based on the breaking point, and the game ended before turn 6. Looking at my army, the only way for me to lose that scenario in that manner is if someone kills my slann and temple guard, which pretty much meant I lost anyway.

Kayosiv
18-06-2010, 09:33
Would you mind posting your list and his as accurately as you can?

ChaosVC
18-06-2010, 09:41
How many of the scenarios did you win and what are the winning conditions?

TroyJPerez
18-06-2010, 09:48
Thats awsome I didn't even thing of the auto nerf to the shades of being forced to use greatweapons if they have them and going last if they charge, lol.

Sparowl
18-06-2010, 09:53
Would you mind posting your list and his as accurately as you can?

My list:
Slann
- all spells from one lore
- extra dice per spell
- cupped hands of the old ones.
- BSB

Skink Priest (lvl 2) on an engine

18 Saurus Warriors, Full command

18 Saurus Warriors, Full command, spears

2 units of 10 Skink Skirmishers, with Javalins

20 Temple Guard, Full command, w/ War Banner

Stegadon

5 Chameleon skinks

4 Kroxigor, w/ancient (champion)

2 units of one salamander w/handlers.

His list, I'll try and remember as best I can:

Dark Elf:
Lvl 4 sorc
- +1 spell, +1 dispel dice
- Lifetaker bow

Hero BSB (I don't recall what he had. Never hit combat)

2 units Warriors with repeater crossbows, one 14 strong, one 16 strong

24 spearmen, full command

5 Dark riders, full command

8 Harpies

18 Black guard, full command

2x Cold one Chariots

5 Cold One Knights

15 Executioners, Full Command

6 Shades, Great weapons

2x Repeater Bolt Throwers

War Hydra

I'm pretty sure that's roughly his list.

UDirtyRat
18-06-2010, 11:02
I know its only one game, and its probably better answered as you play a few more of your preview games.. but I would like to know if you feel that points values for troops (as they currently are) should change based upon the new rules ?

e.g. do saurus all of a sudden seem like they are worth +4 points they performed so well?
e.g. did the shades suddenly seem too expensive for what they are?

disclaimer : just an example, i dont know if they did/didn't/are/aren't, so no-one jump up and down

Ultimate Life Form
18-06-2010, 11:07
OP; your report mirrors my thoughts exactly and confirmed what I was anticipating the whole time. I predicted exactly this outcome for Lizardmen, and I will happily start painting my second Saurus block soon. Happy days for the servants of the Old Ones!

Walgis
18-06-2010, 11:35
i want to play warhammer with my lizards and see how do they perform :) im realy liking few builds, i hope we will be kiking alot of a$$es :D

kaintxu
18-06-2010, 15:23
How did your steegies and EotG perform, I use to love them, but I'm finding a hard time finding any use for them under the new rules

Col_Festus
18-06-2010, 15:48
Thats awsome I didn't even thing of the auto nerf to the shades of being forced to use greatweapons if they have them and going last if they charge, lol.

Yup the new awesome unit for vamps is the Blood Knights, Checking to restrain with a reroll on leadership 10 from the general is going to make this quite ridiculous lol. Gone will be the days of savage blood thirsty thralls chasing eagles into the sunset...

edit: lol sorry should have read the post closer, I thought you mean wraiths from VC.

willowdark
18-06-2010, 16:16
Did you're Saurus take a lot of casualties against the massed low strength attacks with rerolls the DE could dish out? Saurus are a big question mark for me. I think they'll be best in units like you have them, and you said they performed well, but they seemed like they should've been loosing attacks faster than you said they did.

Frankly
18-06-2010, 16:28
Nice report, alot of stuff the take away from it and having a think about. Thanks alot.

I wonder if I can revive my Southlands list.

WarmbloodedLizard
18-06-2010, 18:42
that's pretty much playing 8th Ed with a 7th Ed list. I don't think the lists for 8th will look like that as the steadfast/stubborn rule will f uck with the above kind of normal lists.

Sparowl
18-06-2010, 18:59
- UDirtyRat - There are a few things that need points costs adjusts, in my opinion. Temple guard need a drop (can't use HW/S in close combat anymore), and I doubt you'll ever see Saurus with spears. Kroxigor always going last hurts incredibly, since they aren't going to in huge units anymore.

However, every book is getting effected like this, so we'll just have to wait and see. Obviously I would love a points drop across the board for lizards. :angel:

- kaintxu - The Engine ran into a Hydra and died. However, before he did, he was flanked by Shades and Executioners. Skinks/ Steg attacks into the shades almost wiped them out, and the thunderstomp killed a full rank of executioners. Frankly, if he hadn't swung back with the executioners and killed the steg, I might've won combat.

My normal steg ran next to my TG, hit combat at the same time as them, and did a massive amount of damage. d6+1 impact hits, his normal attacks, then d6 thunderstomp (basically always strike last impact hits). And I rolled a 5 for both impact and thunderstomp. Obviously this won't always happen, and against anything that isn't elves, it probably won't autokill like it did (he ended up doing somewhere around 13 wounds to the elves before finishing combat).

Stegs can't break ranks anymore, but they can a disgusting amount of damage to a unit, meaning that unit might not HAVE ranks anymore. And Thunderstomp means that he retains hitting power after charging. Or if he is charged.

- willowdark - They took as many as they normally did. Perhaps a few more. But that's nothing new for Saurus. They pretty much always had to wait for the opponent to be done before attacking. However, the difference is that I now get full attacks back for the front rank, and anyone in the second rank still standing.

My saurus ate his elves alive.

- WarmbloodedLizard - I saw another game played between Goblins and Bretonnians. Have you ever seen a 50 strong goblin unit? I have. Its a lot of stubborn. On the General's leadership (yep, you can use his leadership for stubborn with 12 inchs). With a BSB nearby.

The goblins slowly wore down the Bretonnian's lance and ended up winning a few rounds later.

However, the difference here is that my saurus never relied on the charge. And I'm fairly certain I'll chew through the goblins/elf/human hordes with mass S4 attacks (S5 if I'm using Temple Guard). Stegadons are really going to help with the Thunderstomp rule.

I feel that Saurus are going to do very well in this edition. Elite infantry might actually be worth fielding in a way that they never were in 6th or 7th.

Korraz
18-06-2010, 19:21
Are you sure about the thing with the flanks? Who exactly does it work?
-If you are in the flank/back, no matter what, you get +1/+2 AND negate ranks
-If you are in the flank/back, you always get +1/+2, but you need 2 ranks to negate enemy ranks.
If you are in the flank/back, you always negate ranks, but you need 2 ranks to receive the bonus.

kaintxu
18-06-2010, 19:21
- kaintxu - The Engine ran into a Hydra and died. However, before he did, he was flanked by Shades and Executioners. Skinks/ Steg attacks into the shades almost wiped them out, and the thunderstomp killed a full rank of executioners. Frankly, if he hadn't swung back with the executioners and killed the steg, I might've won combat.

My normal steg ran next to my TG, hit combat at the same time as them, and did a massive amount of damage. d6+1 impact hits, his normal attacks, then d6 thunderstomp (basically always strike last impact hits). And I rolled a 5 for both impact and thunderstomp. Obviously this won't always happen, and against anything that isn't elves, it probably won't autokill like it did (he ended up doing somewhere around 13 wounds to the elves before finishing combat).

Stegs can't break ranks anymore, but they can a disgusting amount of damage to a unit, meaning that unit might not HAVE ranks anymore. And Thunderstomp means that he retains hitting power after charging. Or if he is charged.


Does Thunderstomp remain after charge? i thought it was only on the charge, if so, then yes, they look preety good

WarmbloodedLizard
18-06-2010, 19:50
However, the difference here is that my saurus never relied on the charge. And I'm fairly certain I'll chew through the goblins/elf/human hordes with mass S4 attacks (S5 if I'm using Temple Guard). Stegadons are really going to help with the Thunderstomp rule.



I'm more concerned about similar units, eg. 36 spear saurus will probably win against 18+18 saurus(or similar), just because they keep their stubborn. for a long time, leaving ample opportunity to countercharge.

I'm really afraid of big units. not balancewise but fun-wise. "deathstars" are incredibly boring, and 8th seems to be the edition of huge "deathstars". with the improved gunlines and the "deathstars" of 8th Ed, I feel medium+small units/monsters will slowly become scarce in people's army lists, making way for more warmachines and bigger units.

edit: I'd say 18-20 strong saurus units will be the new MSU-size, which is really, really sad.

willowdark
18-06-2010, 20:02
But 18 + 18 is more likely to get both front and flank, negating ranks and attacking with _all_ of your attacks, not just the front 3 ranks.

Don Zeko
18-06-2010, 20:30
I'm more concerned about similar units, eg. 36 spear saurus will probably win against 18+18 saurus(or similar), just because they keep their stubborn. for a long time, leaving ample opportunity to countercharge.

I'm really afraid of big units. not balancewise but fun-wise. "deathstars" are incredibly boring, and 8th seems to be the edition of huge "deathstars". with the improved gunlines and the "deathstars" of 8th Ed, I feel medium+small units/monsters will slowly become scarce in people's army lists, making way for more warmachines and bigger units.

edit: I'd say 18-20 strong saurus units will be the new MSU-size, which is really, really sad.

Maybe things will go this way; i don't know if the loss of flexibility will be worth it or not. But if it does, I think every game will be like playing against VC/TK in 7th. Kill the general and/or the BSB, and those horde units will be heading for the hills.

Amnar
18-06-2010, 20:30
- willowdark - They took as many as they normally did. Perhaps a few more. But that's nothing new for Saurus. They pretty much always had to wait for the opponent to be done before attacking. However, the difference is that I now get full attacks back for the front rank, and anyone in the second rank still standing.

My saurus ate his elves alive.



The changes to 8th are bumming me out. As a Dark Elf player, I'm no longer encouraged to actually get stuck in, rather I'm encouraged to shoot and go magic heavy...

kaintxu
18-06-2010, 20:33
and not so much of big deathstars, with new warmachines and no partial reall big units are also going to suffer, since we are in a lizard's based topic, just imagin what 4 salies would do to a bit unit of T3 guys, they can get like 20 or more hits each, lets imagin 2 wont get many so lets go for 40 hits with 4 templates (this is realistic the other day againts ogres with 7th edition rules i got like 13 gnoblars and partials where on 4+ and i just go average, so go imagine) 40 hits on a T3 5+ AS unit such as elves, empire, goblins, is going to kill 20 guys so you tell me

WarmbloodedLizard
18-06-2010, 21:06
But 18 + 18 is more likely to get both front and flank, negating ranks and attacking with _all_ of your attacks, not just the front 3 ranks.

rank bonus doesn't matter and the killing power of saurus isn't that strong vs. saurus. the big unit will be stubborn for the duration of the whole fight. the small saurus units will be planked by a small krox or COR unit or Steg and run one by one. the big unit could even take on a third unit of 18 for a turn or two and not really care much. (it will be stubborn for at least 25 kills.)

Alltaken
18-06-2010, 23:39
I believe the secret of 8th relies on balancing hordes and smal units. Synergy will be the key, ever more

Pavic
19-06-2010, 00:28
I have to say, I plan on testing out Saurus in blocks of 25. This is a bit on the expensive side per unit, but I really think this is going to become the average size for units in the 9 to 12 point range, while cheaper models will almost certainly be run in the 30+ range.

Also, I think that spear saurus are now on equal ground with hw/shield saurus. The new book under 7th rules made spear saurus a no brainer, but now I think that both types will be equally useful on the field, though each type will fulfill different roles.

I am very excited to hear that Stegs get both stomp and impact hits. It is too bad they can't break ranks anymore, but the stomp sounds like it keeps Stegs viable.

Slyphor
19-06-2010, 00:46
Can't wait to get my lizzies stuck in. Thanks for the report. I'm still a little nervous about my Slann, but I guess the higher miscast chance is mitigated somewhat by the fewer dice rolled (due to his auto +4). And, of course, I take cupped hands, which will also help keep the explosions down ... though it didn't in my last game, where I rolled 4 miscasts consecutively.

Tenken
19-06-2010, 02:06
Can't wait to get my lizzies stuck in. Thanks for the report. I'm still a little nervous about my Slann, but I guess the higher miscast chance is mitigated somewhat by the fewer dice rolled (due to his auto +4). And, of course, I take cupped hands, which will also help keep the explosions down ... though it didn't in my last game, where I rolled 4 miscasts consecutively.
I think the possibilty of flying ethereal slanns is a real competitor to the old slann in TG block. Since most miscasts lay down a str 10 template slann really put their TG unit in danger more-so than any wizard. However slann can be ethereal and take a flying carpet, and suddenly become one of the most annoying and maneuverable wizards ever. And since they have a relatively high number of wounds just taking a str 10 hit every once in a while isn't that big a deal.

My real worry for lizards in the new edition is cold one riders. I just don't know if they'll be useful at all in the new edition.

Smithpod68
19-06-2010, 02:50
Thanks for the battle report. That big block stubborn rule is scary. My WE's have their work cut out for them. Plus the lack of difficult terrain makes my movement through woods useless.

Rajhald
19-06-2010, 06:04
Korraz,

It takes 2 ranks 5 across to negate enemy ranks now, but simply being in the flank/rear gives you the bonus, at least that is my understanding.

Sparowl
19-06-2010, 06:36
- kaintxu - Yes, thunderstomp continues every round. Same with normal stomp.

- Slyphor - I'm going to continue running the Slann in TG, despite the miscasting. Why? Because Cupped Hands of the old Ones makes it possible to blow up enemy wizards. Also, I'm using Life Lore for my Slann, and the Remains in Play "Throne of Vines" spell allows you to ignore miscasts on a 2+, in addition to making all the other spells better in the lore.

Slyphor
19-06-2010, 22:02
Sparowl - Throne of vines? I'm on it!

I also like the idea of my Slann whizzing around like a ghost genie. In the past 2 games, I've blown up more than 50% of my TG with a miscast (with cupped hands) and I could do with the Slann leaving them for 8th. Though 10 stubborn TG vs. 20 non-stubborn might be a toss up.

Korraz
19-06-2010, 23:06
Korraz,

It takes 2 ranks 5 across to negate enemy ranks now, but simply being in the flank/rear gives you the bonus, at least that is my understanding.

Thats how I understood it too, just wanted to be sure. Thanks.

Lilike
19-06-2010, 23:28
Great post, thank you!