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tremulant
18-06-2010, 15:57
Hey guys - I'm thinking of starting an OK army since I dig the models, but I'm not wanting my army to be a joke on the battlefield. Has 8th done anything to make OK more viable? Are there any kinds of lists for them that are much more capable than others?

Thanks for any help!

Ultimate Life Form
18-06-2010, 16:06
Ogres definitely got a boost since monstrous infantry do now get rank bonus for 3 wide units, can now attack from second rank with up to 3 attacks and they get additional crush attacks.

How much this helps in making the army more competitive though remains to be seen, especially since everything else got almost universally nastier as well.

Reticent
18-06-2010, 16:14
There haven't been nearly enough games played by the public yet to say anything definitive yet, but OK has undoubtably gotten better.

Killing power per unit has more than doubled (assuming going from typical units of 3 in 7th to units of 6 in 8th). This is largely due to the rules for Monstrous Infantry. This is slightly counter-balanced by the fact that fewer units overall will be fielded. Gnoblar Fighters also benefit greatly from the Horde and Steadfast rules.

Army composition rule changes also free up construction quite favorably, and the changes to Fear are quite useful for Ogres as it helps mitigate some of the Weapon Skill issues that sometimes crop up.

On the whole Ogres are better than ever. It remains to be seen though exactly how much better that is relative to everyone else.

Edit: ULF types faster than I do

Venkh
18-06-2010, 16:29
I played them last night and concluded that they still die easily and whiff half their attacks against most enemies. The gut lore is no where near as good as the book lores either.

The big units can also be interfered with by small speedbumps as well.

They are definitely better than they were but I dont they are going to be anything like dominant.

Ultimate Life Form
18-06-2010, 16:36
My biggest concern is that without saves of any kind and low ini they'll die in droves against pretty much everything as soon as they charge.

tremulant
18-06-2010, 16:47
Well this is sad news :( When is the new book supposed to come? Thought it was supposed to be july/august but no new news since a few months ago from what I've seen :(

Memnos
18-06-2010, 16:51
My biggest concern is that without saves of any kind and low ini they'll die in droves against pretty much everything as soon as they charge.

But Gnoblars can use the Generals leadership for their stubborn tests. If you can't outnumber your foe with Gnoblars piled 5*10, you don't deserve to be playing the game. ;) Your Gnoblars will hold them while you get the flank. Then your Ogres will work juuuuust fine.

mdauben
18-06-2010, 16:52
Well this is sad news :( When is the new book supposed to come? Thought it was supposed to be july/august but no new news since a few months ago from what I've seen :(
Oh, I would not expect a new OK book before mid-2011 at the earliest. AFAIK, there have not been any real rumors for a new book, which probably puts it at least a year out, if not more. :cries:

N810
18-06-2010, 16:57
Also they now get bull charge impact hits, regular hits in 2 ranks, and stomp his and cause a fear check every turn..?

How is this not better ?

Emeraldw
18-06-2010, 17:01
But Gnoblars can use the Generals leadership for their stubborn tests. If you can't outnumber your foe with Gnoblars piled 5*10, you don't deserve to be playing the game. ;) Your Gnoblars will hold them while you get the flank. Then your Ogres will work juuuuust fine.

No they can't. It says in the book for the rank stubborn, you used your unmodified leadership.

Tymell
18-06-2010, 17:02
Hey guys - I'm thinking of starting an OK army since I dig the models, but I'm not wanting my army to be a joke on the battlefield. Has 8th done anything to make OK more viable? Are there any kinds of lists for them that are much more capable than others?

Thanks for any help!

If you like the models, go for it. No army is truly "a joke on the battlefield". Even if some have an edge over others, every army is playable and capable of winning.

And general consensus seems to be that yes, 8th ed changes will help them, even if it's not entirely clear just how much yet.

ChaosVC
18-06-2010, 17:02
Its not better if you invest alot of points to make big blocks of them...and gatewayed happened thanks to your innocent friend from the other side of the table.

N810
18-06-2010, 17:10
It is rumored that you can use you generals LD for stubron in 8th if you are within range.

Reticent
18-06-2010, 17:14
It is rumored that you can use you generals LD for stubron in 8th if you are within range.

I think he was saying that you might not be able to for Steadfast as opposed to Stubborn.

Though it is also rumored that Skirmishers in woods are Stubborn. Trappers Skirmish and may use a Hunter's leadership (9) as if he were the General...

Slyphor
18-06-2010, 17:43
I can't see bothering with another 24 Gnoblar (though it would be cheap even $-wise to get up to horde level), but the extra Ogre attacks should be fun. I play OK like an expensive O&G army, unpredictable, but on a bigger scale, so more potential for smashy smashy sounds fun to me. I say go for it. They might not be top tier in 8th, but they will still be a whole lot of fun to paint and play!

Alltaken
18-06-2010, 19:37
if you get the bull charge you'll deal a lot damage before the others. They're a way fast army so you can pull a couple flank charges and wreck things appart.

And gut magic is great! Never be told otherwise, regen, stubborn, make panic checks. Those 3 are huge, I allways fail to see where people find the lack of usefullness of gut magic

jamano
18-06-2010, 22:16
Also the scraplauncher gets sooooo gooood in 8th. Another thing to keep in mind is some of the magic items are better for ogres then others, like the really cheap banner that gives a unit +1 movement, that would put ogres up to 7 and allow 3d6 on the charge. Also I think the changes to fear are much better, for them since they rarely outnumbered, if they fail a test they will need 5s to hit you and now you will be hitting on 3s.

shakedown47
19-06-2010, 00:40
Ogres got much better, in my opinion, by one of the larger margins of any of the armies. The reasons why are small, maneuverable ranked units, the stomp ability, and the fact that ranks are counted for combat res AFTER all blows have been struck. I'm not saying they're a top-"tier" army or anything, but basically every shortcoming they had in 7th has been lessened or removed altogether. I'll be interested to see what happens with Gut magic.

DillonSIX
19-06-2010, 03:06
I haven't seen the rule book yet, but going off what I've seen in the rumors, won't gnoblars also get to stand and shoot with two ranks. If you went horde this would give 40 sharp stuff shots before combat even begins, although most won't hit it still sounds nice.

Ramius4
19-06-2010, 03:57
Also the scraplauncher gets sooooo gooood in 8th. Another thing to keep in mind is some of the magic items are better for ogres then others, like the really cheap banner that gives a unit +1 movement, that would put ogres up to 7 and allow 3d6 on the charge. Also I think the changes to fear are much better, for them since they rarely outnumbered, if they fail a test they will need 5s to hit you and now you will be hitting on 3s.

Charge distances are not based off your movement now. They are based off your unit type. Monstrous infantry charge M+2D6. All you get from that banner is 1" extra.

Orcboy_Phil
19-06-2010, 08:16
Oh, I would not expect a new OK book before mid-2011 at the earliest. AFAIK, there have not been any real rumors for a new book, which probably puts it at least a year out, if not more. :cries:

Except theres a black and white pic in the new rulebook thats proberly the new Ogre kingdoms book cover. Oh and there riding Rhinoxs which gives a +1 to the rumour of the plastic Rhinox kit.

Slyphor
19-06-2010, 22:04
Except theres a black and white pic in the new rulebook thats proberly the new Ogre kingdoms book cover. Oh and there riding Rhinoxs which gives a +1 to the rumour of the plastic Rhinox kit.

drool. I've been waiting for Rhinox riders to become legit since just before Forgeworld started sculpting them. Looking forward to that!

overlordofnobodies
19-06-2010, 22:11
Except theres a black and white pic in the new rulebook thats proberly the new Ogre kingdoms book cover. Oh and there riding Rhinoxs which gives a +1 to the rumour of the plastic Rhinox kit.

I heard about the Rhinoxs one but I did not hear about any more new pic of OK. :eek:
What it look like?

mdauben
19-06-2010, 23:30
Except theres a black and white pic in the new rulebook thats proberly the new Ogre kingdoms book cover.
Still, there have been no rumors AFAIK about an OK book actually being worked on, which would still put it at least a year out. I could always be wrong, of course, and I would be glad if I was. I'm just not going to hold my breath until we get something more substantial than a single, rough B&W drawing. ;)

jamano
19-06-2010, 23:40
I remember alot of TK and OK rumors before the 8th edition stuff started popping up

lelandchaska
20-06-2010, 00:16
Gnoblar Fighters also benefit greatly from the Horde and Steadfast rules.

I'm planning on reworking my ogres for 8th ed, but I cannot figure out what to do with Gnoblars. It would seem at first that it might be worth taking 2 blocks of 50 for a massive 200 points, but after looking at the numbers, I'm wondering if they are worth taking at all.

Main reason: Leadership 5. Even if stubborn, you will rarely make your stubborn roll. Basically, the enemy hits you, does 15 wounds, you do 1 or 2 back, roll your stubborn, fail, and flee. Seems like a waste of points.

Thoughts?

overlordofnobodies
20-06-2010, 00:59
I'm planning on reworking my ogres for 8th ed, but I cannot figure out what to do with Gnoblars. It would seem at first that it might be worth taking 2 blocks of 50 for a massive 200 points, but after looking at the numbers, I'm wondering if they are worth taking at all.

Main reason: Leadership 5. Even if stubborn, you will rarely make your stubborn roll. Basically, the enemy hits you, does 15 wounds, you do 1 or 2 back, roll your stubborn, fail, and flee. Seems like a waste of points.

Thoughts?

Put them in the General's leadership bubble and BSB.Now they have leadership 9 and can reroll if fail.

lelandchaska
20-06-2010, 01:14
I thought that the rumor that the steadfast ability could go off the general's leadership was debunked. Somewhere I read that in 8th it is either the unit's leadership for stubborn, or the general's leadership but modified by combat resolution. Is this right?

jamano
20-06-2010, 01:18
steadfast means that you dont take any penalties from combat res, you still get to use your modified leadership(in this case, the general)

lelandchaska
20-06-2010, 01:22
Excellent, that settles the question about Gnoblars. Going off the Tyrant's Ld 9 should do the trick. The next question is: Who feels like painting 100 Gnoblars?

overlordofnobodies
20-06-2010, 02:35
I do. If I can paint 200 ork and grot from 40k. I can do some gnoblars.

Memnos
21-06-2010, 09:00
No they can't. It says in the book for the rank stubborn, you used your unmodified leadership.

Can you quote the page number so I can take a look at the rule?

Frankly
21-06-2010, 09:06
The 2 solid OK players at our club are biting at the bit for 8th Ed, most every thing about their core units got buffed.

I'm interested to see how OK and TK fare in this new edition.

Red_Duke
21-06-2010, 09:45
I'd say there are a few major boosts they've got, other than the obvious fighting in two ranks and being able to rank up 3 wide rather than 5, first being immune to panic - which is a HUGE deal for Ogres, which tend to panic and run away more times than not. Next, the changes to fear and terror mean that they will at least always be able to charge terror causers, and the number of games that failed fear tests have lost me the game when i've then been counter-charged by something like a steg is quite significant.

Finally, access to a new, better common magic items list is awesome - especially suddenly allowing access to things like armour saves, and a 4+ ward save is great stuff. The other interesting thing is the banners - there is a +1 MV banner, which will suddenly make an ogre unit MV7 and effectively at cavalry speed. Wohoo!

The extra stomp attack is pretty sweet as well, as frankly ogres need all the attacks they can get, and the slave giant could almost be half decent as well vs infantry at least as well!

The enemy attacking back is a bit of a bugger and all, and cannons getting better is a sod as well, but other than that they are definitely much improved by the look of things.

Memnos
21-06-2010, 10:18
I'm planning on reworking my ogres for 8th ed, but I cannot figure out what to do with Gnoblars. It would seem at first that it might be worth taking 2 blocks of 50 for a massive 200 points, but after looking at the numbers, I'm wondering if they are worth taking at all.

Main reason: Leadership 5. Even if stubborn, you will rarely make your stubborn roll. Basically, the enemy hits you, does 15 wounds, you do 1 or 2 back, roll your stubborn, fail, and flee. Seems like a waste of points.

Thoughts?

Also, you are only stubborn if you have more ranks than the enemy.

Combined charges with Gnoblars will be pleasing as nobody will be able to out-rank you.

Theoretically, what you'll want to do is:

A) Charge with massive Ogre unit, leaving only corner to corner to connect.

B) Charge with Gnoblar unit, leaving only 1 Gnoblar connecting.

In this case, they don't get a lot of attacks on the Gnoblars. You'll win combat, out-rank them, they lose Stubborn and flee.

Kerill
21-06-2010, 10:31
Also you can now take a slaughtermaster at 2000-2999 points along with a tyrant and the ogres now have a range of excellent defensive gear and ward saves (luck gnoblars anyone?)that they didn't have before.2+ save with re-rolls, 4+ ward with re-rolls, yes please.

Oh and the thundermace got even better. Pretty nasty on a slaughtermaster too.

Great skull just got better with the new miscast table as well.

Red_Duke
21-06-2010, 10:48
Thats a good point actually - at 2250pts (standard games around my area) you can comfortably take both, although not with maxed out items. With the changes to magic, you could probably then just take a BSB, and be done - allowing for quite a few more ogre units too.

Currently i'm thinking that 2 units of 6 bulls, 2 units of 6 ironguts, 2 units of leadbelchers, and maybe a few gnoblars could be interesting...

smallgreenguy
21-06-2010, 11:23
Being a main Ogre player, I can give you my thoughts on 8th editions as it relates to ogres, being the army i've been testing 8th ed with.

As far as I'm concerned, Ogres have taken a hit with 8th edition. We gained 2 ranks of attacks (everyone gained two ranks of attacks though), and ranks at 3 wide.

The downside is we attack in initiative order, so we essentially always strike last, even if we charge. This hurts with ogres, especially since we have an almost non-existant armor save.

We suffered the most from the 2d6 charge distance, infantry charge distance went from 8 to an average of 11, while ogres went from 12 to an average of 13. You can do the math and see that in 7th we had a 50% larger charge range than infantry, and in 8th we have a 16% larger charge range (on average). This hurt our movement a lot.

Probably the most fun part about ogres is being able to get the charge off on people. This isn't as important now with initiative ordered attacks, taking into account our 2I, bonus for charging is +1 CR, and we need two ranks to the flank to break ranks.

We now need two ranks to break ranks. Leaving aside the fact that flanks are harder to get now, and baiting and fleeing doesn't work nearly as well, this means that we need *MORE* than two ranks of three ogres in a unit at the start of the game to be able to successfully break ranks, because you will not get across the table without losing some wounds on rank breaking units.

One of the setups that we are notoriously bad at competing against is a gunline or bunker setup. These setups got even stronger in 8th edition.

Just my experience so far. I however can never tell someone to not start an OK army =).

Kerill
21-06-2010, 13:48
Well I'm looking forward to playing OK in 8th and I reckon they will be pretty good.

Just knocked up a list, something like

Tyrant, armour of 4+ ward, GW, luck gnoblar
Slaughtermaster, 5+ ward, luck gnoblar, thindermace
BSB, 5+ ward (the OK one), gutmaw and heavy armour, luck gnoblar.

5 ironguts, FC: +1 M standard. (7+3D6 charge, yes please)
5 irongurs, FC
3 bulls*2
2 * 58 gnoblars (tie up large parts of the battlefield)

2 Scraplaunchers- no S7 death, 5" template, no need to guess range and no partials? Yes please. Impact hits (no thunderstomp sadly) and plenty of attacks? Move and fire?

1 Gorger
8 trappers

Pretty nasty if you ask me and a big step up from last edition.

5 Ironguts led by a Tyrant and charging as fast as cavalry are hitting like a ton of bricks and the slaughtermaster alone will kill 12 pansy elves in a single strike.

Its all theory of course, but I definitely think they have got a lot better and against horde armies the scraplauncher is probably the best chaff and large infantry clearance unit in the game and that's aside from it combat support potential as a very tough chariot with a boatload of attacks. The 5" template must cover over 30 models?

warpoet
22-06-2010, 04:21
Also, you are only stubborn if you have more ranks than the enemy.

Combined charges with Gnoblars will be pleasing as nobody will be able to out-rank you.

Theoretically, what you'll want to do is:

A) Charge with massive Ogre unit, leaving only corner to corner to connect.

B) Charge with Gnoblar unit, leaving only 1 Gnoblar connecting.

In this case, they don't get a lot of attacks on the Gnoblars. You'll win combat, out-rank them, they lose Stubborn and flee.

Ugh! If I am reading this correctly, this is want prevents me from playing WHFB.

You want to charge with two units, but actually only get one model from each unit in combat?

I am interested in OK--a lot--so please please please explain what you mean to this WHFB newbie.

Seabo
22-06-2010, 04:40
He means charging with both units but only leaving a small amount of room in the front arc of the enemy unit so only 1 guy has a gnoblar in base to base combat.
That way the unit really can only kill 1 gnoblar and have to allocate the rest to the ogres who, with higher toughness and wounds, should hopefully take only a few casualties.
Then, at CR time, the OK player gets to add all the #s and ranks of the gnoblars to his resolution meaning that he will most probably outrank and outnumber so the enemy unit will lose his stubborn...:D

Sygerrik
22-06-2010, 04:53
He means charging with both units but only leaving a small amount of room in the front arc of the enemy unit so only 1 guy has a gnoblar in base to base combat.
That way the unit really can only kill 1 gnoblar and have to allocate the rest to the ogres who, with higher toughness and wounds, should hopefully take only a few casualties.
Then, at CR time, the OK player gets to add all the #s and ranks of the gnoblars to his resolution meaning that he will most probably outrank and outnumber so the enemy unit will lose his stubborn...:D

This is an illegal tactic. It specifically says when making multiple charges you must get a roughly equal number of models from each unit in. There's pages of diagrams and everything.



I think he was saying that you might not be able to for Steadfast as opposed to Stubborn.

Though it is also rumored that Skirmishers in woods are Stubborn. Trappers Skirmish and may use a Hunter's leadership (9) as if he were the General...

Stubborn = You always count as Steadfast. There is no difference between the two in the rules.

Memnos
22-06-2010, 07:45
Ugh! If I am reading this correctly, this is want prevents me from playing WHFB.

You want to charge with two units, but actually only get one model from each unit in combat?

I am interested in OK--a lot--so please please please explain what you mean to this WHFB newbie.

Units have a 'Frontage'. Imagine the movie '300' where the Spartans drew up a strict battle-line.

Normally, if you charge a unit, you maximize the frontage, which means you will line them up.

In the case of Gnoblars, this means you will often lose combat. However: If you charge in with Ogres first, most of the 'frontage'(The potential models who can contact the others) will be taken up with the much tougher Ogres.

Historically, units didn't just wrecklessly charge in, intermingle and have every model fight everyone else. Rather: Some did, but the most successful did not. Romans, Greeks, Swiss pikemen, British Redcoats - The list goes on and on. While skirmishing-type units do exist in Warhammer Fantasy, the use of them in the new edition will require a very cunning commander. This is as it should be.

Urgat
22-06-2010, 08:05
My biggest concern is that without saves of any kind and low ini they'll die in droves against pretty much everything as soon as they charge.

Really? My biggest concern is how they won't reach combat... every single ranged weapon got better, and there's Tlos now, and, well, they're big.


Historically, units didn't just wrecklessly charge in, intermingle and have every model fight everyone else. Rather: Some did, but the most successful did not. Romans, Greeks, Swiss pikemen, British Redcoats - The list goes on and on. While skirmishing-type units do exist in Warhammer Fantasy, the use of them in the new edition will require a very cunning commander. This is as it should be.

You got some nerve to use history to justify one gnobblar fighting from a unit of 20+. It is, indeed, a well known fact that romans twiddled their fingers when their pals were fighting next to them, but they themselves ended up a few steps too far from the fight and needed a well deserved rest. The superior tactics of only having a handful men fighting in their units built Rome :p
No, man, it's just a horrible mechanic, and I hope it is adressed in 8th.

WarmbloodedLizard
22-06-2010, 09:08
I read that fear = ITP. wanted to start ogres for almost a year now, and finally bought the models 2 months ago. and now I seem to have to wait for the new book (unless there is a serious errata).


also: scraplauncher still has a stupid misfire chart. it's better than before, but not great.

Memnos
22-06-2010, 10:33
You got some nerve to use history to justify one gnobblar fighting from a unit of 20+. It is, indeed, a well known fact that romans twiddled their fingers when their pals were fighting next to them, but they themselves ended up a few steps too far from the fight and needed a well deserved rest. The superior tactics of only having a handful men fighting in their units built Rome :p
No, man, it's just a horrible mechanic, and I hope it is adressed in 8th.

Whoah there, big guy... Let's take a right off of Condescension Boulevard and pull on to Reality Lane.

We were talking about Ogres charging first, then Gnoblars charging in after the fact and being unable to make contact with more than one.

In this case, the fighting rank of men are still fighting. It's just that they're fighting Ogres.

If you want to talk reality then while I would agree that that having one Gnoblar contact one Spearman and having that swing the battle entirely in the favor of Gnoblars seems silly, it seems more silly that a unit of 10-15 foot tall killing machines charge in and are completely unwounded but decide to flee because the 2 1/2 foot tall little green guys with broken bottles and sharp rocks are dying more quickly than the Spearmen.

Voss
22-06-2010, 14:07
5 ironguts, FC: +1 M standard. (7+3D6 charge, yes please)


Nope. +2d6, as the 3d6 drop the lowest on isn't tied to movement speed- its attached to a rule called swiftstrider which certain unit types get. (Cav, flyers and I believe warbeasts).

On the other hand it is another inch on the charge, and M7 will help in positioning the unit.


@warmbloodedlizard- I don't think so. fear provides immunity to other units that cause fear, and downgrades terror to fear, but I don't think it provides immunity to anything else.

N810
22-06-2010, 14:35
You would probaly be better off just flank charging with goblars after the ogres charged the front.

warpoet
22-06-2010, 15:01
Thanks for the explanations, guys. Sorry it rolled into a bit of "real vs. rules" conversation.

I appreciate you taking the time to clear it all up for me.

Sygerrik
22-06-2010, 15:48
Really? My biggest concern is how they won't reach combat... every single ranged weapon got better, and there's Tlos now, and, well, they're big.



You got some nerve to use history to justify one gnobblar fighting from a unit of 20+. It is, indeed, a well known fact that romans twiddled their fingers when their pals were fighting next to them, but they themselves ended up a few steps too far from the fight and needed a well deserved rest. The superior tactics of only having a handful men fighting in their units built Rome :p
No, man, it's just a horrible mechanic, and I hope it is adressed in 8th.

Just to restate: it is absolutely addressed. If two friendly units both declare a charge on the same enemy unit, and both are found to be in range, they must have as close to an equal number of models fighting as possible. That is, two ogres and two Gnoblars (or possibly three Gnoblars; can't do three ogres unless you can get at least two Gnoblars into contact at the same time).

Reticent
22-06-2010, 16:11
Just to restate: it is absolutely addressed. If two friendly units both declare a charge on the same enemy unit, and both are found to be in range, they must have as close to an equal number of models fighting as possible. That is, two ogres and two Gnoblars (or possibly three Gnoblars; can't do three ogres unless you can get at least two Gnoblars into contact at the same time).

Though of course even done perfectly by the rules 2/3 of the enemy will be in contact with the Ogres as the Ogres' frontage per model is twice that of the Gnoblars.

Rockgut
22-06-2010, 18:07
Shooting is still going to be a real (worse) problem for Ogres. Though with the increased terrain and no required "open middle" of the table, at least we should get some cover benefits in most cases.

Getting a charge off against infantry with a unit of six IGs could be devastating though:

3 impact hits at Str 5
9 hits on average from 18 attacks at Str 6
6 Stomp hits at Str 4

So I know this is best case as some may die before they get to attack and you might not get the charge, but if they do survive, you are looking at 18 high strength wounding opporntunities. If you lose a guy or two before fighting back you are still looking at 12-15 hits. Then worst case you are racking up half of the hits as wounds, adding +1 for charging and maybe one for a banner, and you will be in good shape. The unit you are fighting might be stubborn and stay put becuase of ranks, but at least you are not losing combat and testing to run like happens a lot in 7th ed. And then the next turn you can chop them up again.

Add a character or two to the mix above and/or a failed fear test by your opponent and it becomes even more effective. I'm not saying that Ogres will be super-powerful, but at least a lone unit now has a chance to win battels on it's own.

Instead of setting up charge(s) to break your enenmy in one turn, I think 8th will be a lot about tar-pitting/isolating your oppenents units and then bringing your supporting units in while preventing your opponent from bringing in their support. So Cavalry won't be used to break units on their own, instead it will be used to slow down opponents supporitng/flanking and to add CR occasionally with a flank charge of it's own.

Sounds fun to me. Of course this is if you are not shot or magicked to death before you even fight!

Kerill
22-06-2010, 18:22
Gnoblar trappers who leave the trees early game might be able to shield a lot of ogre units from missiles if the cover rumours are true.

Emeraldw
22-06-2010, 20:20
Stubborn = You always count as Steadfast. There is no difference between the two in the rules.

Hold on. Steadfast means you take a test on your unmodified leadership. I know that because I read that section myself.

But my understanding was that stubborn was now allowed to use modified leaderships.

Sygerrik
22-06-2010, 22:29
Hold on. Steadfast means you take a test on your unmodified leadership. I know that because I read that section myself.

But my understanding was that stubborn was now allowed to use modified leaderships.

Read the section on Stubborn. The entirety of the rule is basically "This unit always counts as Steadfast."

Emeraldw
22-06-2010, 22:34
Read the section on Stubborn. The entirety of the rule is basically "This unit always counts as Steadfast."

Alright, that answers that.

Do you know if you can use modified leadership like the general on such tests? if so, that does make a huge difference for armies with low Leadership.

madden
22-06-2010, 23:11
The large template covers 49/50 models if they are on 20mm bases so the scap launcher is wicked.(but a pain to assemble).

bubafett
23-06-2010, 00:04
So I was looking around at making a new list for Ogres, and stumbled upon something that is quite useful. So there is a new Magic Light armor that makes you -1 to hit in combat. Then there is the Greyback Pelt that also makes you -1 to hit in combat. You can combine these for a total -2 to be hit, be T6 and WS 10 with the new weapon as well. that makes you always hit on 6's and maybe 7's? that pretty nice

overlordofnobodies
23-06-2010, 01:04
So I was looking around at making a new list for Ogres, and stumbled upon something that is quite useful. So there is a new Magic Light armor that makes you -1 to hit in combat. Then there is the Greyback Pelt that also makes you -1 to hit in combat. You can combine these for a total -2 to be hit, be T6 and WS 10 with the new weapon as well. that makes you always hit on 6's and maybe 7's? that pretty nice

How are you T6? As for that WS10 weapon. You all so get a +1 to attack right or does Weapon pair mean some thing else.

Sygerrik
23-06-2010, 02:16
How are you T6? As for that WS10 weapon. You all so get a +1 to attack right or does Weapon pair mean some thing else.

It's +1 A. If you have the Greyback Pelt, the -1 to hit armor and the WS10 swords, not sure if that's under 100 points, everything in the game hits you on 6s. And then you get hit with a cannonball, the Penumbral Pendulum, a Stone Thrower, or any other ranged or magic attack and PBBBTH dead.

Rockgut
23-06-2010, 03:01
Cathayan Longsword could be used to give you +1WS and +1 In for cheaper.

bubafett
23-06-2010, 04:39
My bad yes hes not T6 he has A6 cuz of pair. But yes its under 100 pts. Cant actually say pts on here for them all but if you look they r under. And your statement about cannons and all that, thats what a big unit of iron guts is for, look out sir. And why would u wanna go the route of long sword in this situation. I thought about it at first but then realized that the paired wep at ws10 makes everyone in game hit you on 6s unless they have +1 to hit or a special weapon that alters their hit which is rare. I know its a wierd defensive way to arm him but it still kinda stays true to the theme of how a ogre should be. You could give ward save and all that but just doesnt feel right to me. And btw a stone thrower is now only str3 and doesnt negate armor and only does d6 wounds under the eye and still get look out for it. Good luck with that one.