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gdsora
18-06-2010, 20:09
What do Tomb Kings do now?

With the new
Fighting in initiative, step up, stubborn, and to top it off the new fear and terror, and BSB rolling of all leadership tests


What are we to do?
We relied on autobreaking, as none of our units can fight themselves out of a wet paper bag (except tomb guard)

Our skeletons are pricey for there stats (even more so with the greatly weakened fear)

Chariots lose much of there effectiveness with stepping up (impact hits can no longer safetly remove attacks back)

All of our heavy hitters
Scorpions, Ushabti, Bone giant are made even more fragile by the new shooting rules


But, i dont want to despair

My question is, has anyone see some good things for TK in this new edition.

better yet, played some games (i will be playing one tomorrow with the new rules)

There has to be something good for us

(note, i tried focusing on the new combat/shooting rules....ill ignore the whole can of worms magic might bring up)

fall3nang3l
18-06-2010, 20:16
they did get some nice bonuses. shooting in 2 ranks when not on a hill. AND you get to shoot twice each magic phase with incantation of smiting. take a couple of cheap 10 man skeleton units with bows and they double their effectiveness per turn. same thing with the new stone thrower rules of no partials (which you can also shoot twice per turn)

theunwantedbeing
18-06-2010, 20:20
You shoot in more ranks, fight in more ranks (ushabti are scary, really scary now).
You can also take a couple of big ushabti units AND the scorpions, plus bone giants get thunderstomp which is useful.
Chariots dont allow support attacks, so you fight in a single rank vs chariots, this is useful for them.
Your charge ranges have all gone up a lot unless you roll really badly too.

Basically, other than magic your looking at a big improvement.

No point jumping to too many conclusions though as the errata is still to happen to clarify everything from 7th to 8th. But its unlikely to change much other than magic (so the higher level casters arent so adversely affected)

gdsora
18-06-2010, 20:22
they did get some nice bonuses. shooting in 2 ranks when not on a hill. AND you get to shoot twice each magic phase with incantation of smiting. take a couple of cheap 10 man skeleton units with bows and they double their effectiveness per turn. same thing with the new stone thrower rules of no partials (which you can also shoot twice per turn)

Stone thrower seems nice, but now its str 3
and panic now seems to be harder to accomplish with BSB allowing rerolls


Unwantedbeing
Shooting in more ranks is nice, but +5 in pratice doesnt hit that much
Fighting in more ranks? are you serious, that does not help us at all

what do you mean big ushabti units? 3-4? 5?
a 5 man unit runs 325 points
Thats a lot of points for a T4 + 5+ save unit, that doesn't march. I could screen them in 7th, now i cant.

Skywave
18-06-2010, 20:44
You shoot in more ranks, fight in more ranks (ushabti are scary, really scary now).
You can also take a couple of big ushabti units AND the scorpions, plus bone giants get thunderstomp which is useful.
Chariots dont allow support attacks, so you fight in a single rank vs chariots, this is useful for them.
Your charge ranges have all gone up a lot unless you roll really badly too.

Basically, other than magic your looking at a big improvement.

No point jumping to too many conclusions though as the errata is still to happen to clarify everything from 7th to 8th. But its unlikely to change much other than magic (so the higher level casters arent so adversely affected)

Ushabti aren't really more scary, who would take a second rank of them at their current point cost? I mean thy aren't more resilient now, still have low T and barely usefull save. With stepping up they'll receive even more attack, and shooting can still easily maul them down. I fear they'll be as 'uselesss' as they are (mostly because of the point cost).

Chariot not granting support attack is new to me though! That's one good news for the Chariots who will receive 'only' a front rank full of attacks :p

But TK in general are in for a lot of pain. Everything cost a lot of point (point cost are closer to elite army than horde), but with low stats across the bord. Nothing on the army is really resilient (save for fighty characters), and we have nearly no armor save to speak off, the higher you'll ever see is 3+ on the Bone Giant, or on Characters on chariot with a magical armor, otherwise it'll be 5+ for every units. Combine that with us receiving more attack (enemy get double rank of attack and even strike first), that mean any small, hitty unit we have probably won't even have the time to strike before we get to attack!

Bow and Catapult are our only strenght now, but enemy will cross the bord faster so we might now have the time to use them to good effect.

CaliforniaGamer
18-06-2010, 20:47
What do Tomb Kings do now?


To the point: TKs cannot be played in the current edition without an epic errata. The magic system is simply not compatible in any sort of reasonable way.

In addition, there has to be an errata for Crumble special rule to account for Steadfast, likely losing no additional casualties.

If both those dont occur, the TKs are basically sunk until they get a new book.

jamano
18-06-2010, 21:59
Few things to keep in mind in 8th:
You can take a tomb king and a high priest in the same list now.
With True line of sight for forests and whatnot, your arrows of the asp become ungodly.
While ushtabi may be slightly more expensive then most of their other ogre based cousins, they are probably the second best if not the best monstrous infantry in 8th(i prefer rat ogres but they have their own problems) They actually have weapon skill 4 which is extremely rare for ogre bases, they have strength 6 without always going last, and they have initiative 3!(doesnt seem spectacular, but it will let them go before alot of troops in 8th) Plus with the heroes going to percentages, you can take the icon bearer without losing much, and he makes your undead constructs pretty nasty.

Spiney Norman
18-06-2010, 22:45
OK, the pros first


Few things to keep in mind in 8th:
You can take a tomb king and a high priest in the same list now.

This is the trump card for me, you have to be a TK player to understand how good this is for TK, I really think they gain more from this rule than any other army, as being able to take a King as general and a LHP as hierophant in 2K is HUGE.


With True line of sight for forests and whatnot, your arrows of the asp become ungodly.

Yes, esp given that there will be a lot more cover bonuses around, and about the only positive modifier that we ignored (large target) is now gone for everyone. I've actually considered resurrecting my Khalida list to see how it fairs in 8th...


While ushtabi may be slightly more expensive then most of their other ogre based cousins, they are probably the second best if not the best monstrous infantry in 8th(i prefer rat ogres but they have their own problems) They actually have weapon skill 4 which is extremely rare for ogre bases, they have strength 6 without always going last, and they have initiative 3!(doesnt seem spectacular, but it will let them go before alot of troops in 8th) Plus with the heroes going to percentages, you can take the icon bearer without losing much, and he makes your undead constructs pretty nasty.

Ushabti's lack of any decent save still leaves them one of the worst choices in the list IMHO, they are still extremely over-priced, and crumble does them absolutely no favours in combat where everyone else will be stubborn against them. Still near the bottom of the pile when you contemplate other monstrous infantry. On the other hand, with auto-break gone, they are one of the only units in the TK list that can actually deliver kills in combat, so for that reason alone they may well become a more attractive choice.

Chariots are very good, as they'll impact before the Int order (but this was always the case), they also can't be auto splatted by str 7, which is a big improvement.

Ok, the cons

Psychology is now totally nerfed, like it may as well not be in the game. Even low to average Ld armies will pass their tests most of the time thanks to re-rolls from the BSB (which everyone will now take). No panicing, no failed fear tests, the SSC is totally nerfed as anything other than an anti-horde weapon.

The no partials thing is nice, but with the loss of ignores armour and the reduction to Str 3 (when any target that actually matters and isn't a High elf is T4 at least) mean that stone throwers are, IMHO actually worse than last ed. Not particularly because their effectiveness is reduced, but because they're effective against different things.

The problem with stone throwers now is that they're exclusively anti-horde devices, they suck against armoured targets, but virtually everything in the game can slaughter horde units (thats what they're for), so I really don't know if there'll be a roll left for the humble stone thrower.

The downside is that TK now have no real anti-armour options except for the blade of setep (don't anyone dare say Ushabti).

The Casket of Souls will be even more essential than ever, esp with the new rules governing how warmachines & crews work meaning that it wont be such a liability for the priest who takes it.

Skyros
18-06-2010, 22:55
To the point: TKs cannot be played in the current edition without an epic errata. The magic system is simply not compatible in any sort of reasonable way.

In addition, there has to be an errata for Crumble special rule to account for Steadfast, likely losing no additional casualties.

If both those dont occur, the TKs are basically sunk until they get a new book.

Correct. With TK chars not adding any power level to their bound spells, and having to roll for and consume power dice when casting them, they are utterly screwed against anyone who takes a wizard.

I have no idea how the very weak very expensive TK skeletons are supposed to work in an 8th ed world either.

On the plus side, chariots aren't killed instantly by S7, your archers can fire in 3 ranks, and I think ushabti get stomp attacks!

Enigmatik1
18-06-2010, 23:04
Correct. With TK chars not adding any power level to their bound spells, and having to roll for and consume power dice when casting them, they are utterly screwed against anyone who takes a wizard.

This is the most worrisome change imo. I sincerely hope this is addressed very quickly in whatever errata they opt to release otherwise, I'm not sure how I'm going to work around this hinderance.


I have no idea how the very weak very expensive TK skeletons are supposed to work in an 8th ed world either.

The same way they did in 7: Poorly. I recognized the first game I ran with TK that Skeletons were a massive liability in my lists unless they were shooting. 8E is doing nothing to address this. In fact, it's making it even more likely that TK players will flood the board (relatively speaking because they're still expensive) with Skeleton Archers.

Dare I say it, they've managed to make H2H Skeletons even more of hinderance since I can't think of a single unit in the game, outside of zombies, that won't slaughter them in close combat. I'm used to playing "around" whatever Skeletons I field, so ultimately little is changing from my perspective. ;)


On the plus side, chariots aren't killed instantly by S7, your archers can fire in 3 ranks, and I think ushabti get stomp attacks!

As noted, there are some positives. Tomb Guard, Scorpions, Warmachines Chariots and Characters are going to be what wins us matches until we get a new book. Not much different from now, if you ask me. :D

Edit: WTB Core Tomb Guard!!!!

jamano
18-06-2010, 23:07
Also keep in mind that the basic profile strength of ushtabi is 6, not 4+2 so they get strength 6 crush attacks. This combined with the capping of armor saves makes them effective anti armor units in my eyes. They're also extremely effective against other monstrous infantry because they will go first and usually have higher WS then them

Enigmatik1
18-06-2010, 23:19
Also keep in mind that the basic profile strength of ushtabi is 6, not 4+2 so they get strength 6 crush attacks. This combined with the capping of armor saves makes them effective anti armor units in my eyes. They're also extremely effective against other monstrous infantry because they will go first and usually have higher WS then them

Oh no doubt. They just have to get there. Anyone who's played TK for any length of time will tell you, getting Ushabti into close combat is often a monumental task if the opposing army has any semblance of a shooting phase. :D

w3rm
18-06-2010, 23:28
I can see Heavy Cavalry actually being taken now because they are so cheap and cause fear. With a nice magic banner they are fast enough to skirt around and slam some flanks because you can easily feild a unit of 15+ relatively cheaply.

Spiney Norman
18-06-2010, 23:30
This is the most worrisome change imo. I sincerely hope this is addressed very quickly in whatever errata they opt to release otherwise, I'm not sure how I'm going to work around this hinderance.


I don't think its that worrisome. I don't actually think that most people will bring wizard lords, because they're a total rip off, and a difference of +2 isn't that massive. Especially when you consider that TK will be able to put out a much greater volume of spells than anyone else, and will be almost completely unaffected by the winds of magic roll.

Say I field a King, a High Liche, and a liche with a casket (my current plan) at 2K, thats 2xD6 MWBD, 2x 2D6 incant, 2x 3D6 incant and the undying banner. Thats equivalent to 12PD, the max any army can get, except its guaranteed automatic for us every turn, plus however many PD dice you want to throw at your bound spell(s).

Now most armies would be completely screwed if they rolled say a 3 on the WoM dice, but TK will be rejoicing because we'll get the same spell volume, but your opponent will only have 2DD.

Given that the most DD any given army can expect to get is 6 I think we'll be getting more spells through in 7th than we have previously.


I can see Heavy Cavalry actually being taken now because they are so cheap and cause fear. With a nice magic banner they are fast enough to skirt around and slam some flanks because you can easily feild a unit of 15+ relatively cheaply.
Yeah, because causing fear is really great in 8th Edition. You realise that all psychology is nothing but an irrelevance since everyone will be rerolling all their failed Ld tests.

w3rm
18-06-2010, 23:40
Ok whatever fear sucks. All of my other points still stand.

jamano
18-06-2010, 23:43
You won't really know whats going on with tomb king magic in 8th till they put out the errata, it doesn't really work when you need to use power dice to cast bound spells.

gdsora
19-06-2010, 00:03
I can see Heavy Cavalry actually being taken now because they are so cheap and cause fear. With a nice magic banner they are fast enough to skirt around and slam some flanks because you can easily feild a unit of 15+ relatively cheaply.

Heavy Cavalry suck though.
16 points for a ws2, str4 (on the charge) non fast cav unit
sure they hit the flank

what are they going to do? most likely just be free combat rez

w3rm
19-06-2010, 02:14
They can tie a unit down and yeah theyre not going to win combats by themselves. But with say a Warbanner and a unit of 30 Skellies with banner of undying legion and a TP with a GW can do some damage. Im not saying theyre amazing but they have thier uses.

Cragspyder
19-06-2010, 03:57
I don't understand how Tomb Kings magic has problems with compatibility.

Do you mean that, since our spells from say, a Liche Priest, has a 'Power Level of 2d6', and since the power level of Bound Spells now determines how hard they are to cast, not their automatic casting value, so that a Liche Priest has to roll randomly 2d6 to determine the target casting value, and then try to beat that value using his Winds of Magic roll?

So each bound spell by Liche Priests have a random casting value between 2-12, which you then must beat on 2d6? That is messed up and silly but I can see the argument RAW-wise for it.

bluesystem
19-06-2010, 04:03
They can tie a unit down and yeah theyre not going to win combats by themselves. But with say a Warbanner and a unit of 30 Skellies with banner of undying legion and a TP with a GW can do some damage. Im not saying theyre amazing but they have thier uses.

Even with all that I'm sure they'll get eaten up easily. People are going to have more models attacking you, and probably going first. Those models don't have much survivability, and will be destroyed, losing horribly in combat against anything that isn't just as horrible. Those losses will practically be doubled by the fact that they crumble.

Kayosiv
19-06-2010, 04:25
We will simply have to wait for an explanation on how to run the tomb king magic phase in 8th edition. It was a totally unique system in 6th and 7th, it will be again, so we'll just have to wait.

Excuse my ignorance in not being a tomb king player, but Ushabti... are good. They are the ONLY monstrous infantry in the game that is going to get a strength 6 autohit stomp attack. Only toughness 4, only 5+ armor save... seriously what monstrous infantry has a better save? What has a higher toughness?

Rat Ogres no save
Minotaurs 6+ save
Ogres 4-6+
Ushabti 5+
Kroxigar 4+ save
Dragon Ogres 4+
Trolls Regenerate


Ushabti seem just about middle of the pack compared to most things defensibly. Just the only thing with significantly more survivability is a stone troll or a treekin, and those are just as expensive as Ushabti and have less offensive power because they are strength 5 (and trolls are WS 3). Not to mention they have negative rules too like flammable and stupidity.

The things that can get as much offensive power as them such as dragon ogres or minotaurs can only do so with great weapons, making them more expensive and also striking last.

Also remember that they aren't as slow as they used to be. They are unable to march and charge 10" in 7th. In 8th they are able to go 5" and charge 7-17". That's a pretty hefty improvement in the amount of time it takes them to see combat on average. Ushabti are going to be big.

The biggest problem is that they still have to compete for points spent on Tomb Guard and Tomb Scorpions. But you can only get 3 tomb scorpions.

Spiney Norman
19-06-2010, 07:47
We will simply have to wait for an explanation on how to run the tomb king magic phase in 8th edition. It was a totally unique system in 6th and 7th, it will be again, so we'll just have to wait.

Excuse my ignorance in not being a tomb king player, but Ushabti... are good. They are the ONLY monstrous infantry in the game that is going to get a strength 6 autohit stomp attack. Only toughness 4, only 5+ armor save... seriously what monstrous infantry has a better save? What has a higher toughness?

Rat Ogres no save
Minotaurs 6+ save
Ogres 4-6+
Ushabti 5+
Kroxigar 4+ save
Dragon Ogres 4+
Trolls Regenerate


Ushabti seem just about middle of the pack compared to most things defensibly. Just the only thing with significantly more survivability is a stone troll or a treekin, and those are just as expensive as Ushabti and have less offensive power because they are strength 5 (and trolls are WS 3). Not to mention they have negative rules too like flammable and stupidity.

The things that can get as much offensive power as them such as dragon ogres or minotaurs can only do so with great weapons, making them more expensive and also striking last.

Also remember that they aren't as slow as they used to be. They are unable to march and charge 10" in 7th. In 8th they are able to go 5" and charge 7-17". That's a pretty hefty improvement in the amount of time it takes them to see combat on average. Ushabti are going to be big.

The biggest problem is that they still have to compete for points spent on Tomb Guard and Tomb Scorpions. But you can only get 3 tomb scorpions.

2 Scorps is enough for most games, you don't want too many points off the table when the game begins.

The problem Ushabti has is they're always target number one because there isn't really anything else worth shooting in the TK army. Don't get me wrong I'll still field them, I always have (best models in the whole of Warhammer), but I don't expect a massive increase in performance, mainly because they rarely made it to combat in 7th, and shooting is pretty well doubling in effectiveness.

On to something I'm a little surprised no-one has mentioned - the Bone Giant

Ok, so he royally sucks in 7th, but consider that he is getting an additional D6 stomp attacks, which hit automatically. Dare I say the words "unstoppable assault". Is this the edition when ole' Boney finally becomes viable?

gdsora
19-06-2010, 08:13
2 Scorps is enough for most games, you don't want too many points off the table when the game begins.

The problem Ushabti has is they're always target number one because there isn't really anything else worth shooting in the TK army. Don't get me wrong I'll still field them, I always have (best models in the whole of Warhammer), but I don't expect a massive increase in performance, mainly because they rarely made it to combat in 7th, and shooting is pretty well doubling in effectiveness.

On to something I'm a little surprised no-one has mentioned - the Bone Giant

Ok, so he royally sucks in 7th, but consider that he is getting an additional D6 stomp attacks, which hit automatically. Dare I say the words "unstoppable assault". Is this the edition when ole' Boney finally becomes viable?

@Kayosiv

Exactly what Spiney Norman said. Going against a Tomb king army, if you have any form of shooting the top priority will go to ushabti.

As there is really nothing else (in most lists) that you would have to fear. Once the ushabti are out of the way..well there isnt that much to worry about

Spiney Norman
19-06-2010, 08:37
@Kayosiv

Exactly what Spiney Norman said. Going against a Tomb king army, if you have any form of shooting the top priority will go to ushabti.

As there is really nothing else (in most lists) that you would have to fear. Once the ushabti are out of the way..well there isnt that much to worry about

Actually I'm now seriously looking at the bone giant. As long as his stomp attacks are effected by the unstoppable assault rule he's going to be ungodly. Math-hammering he should cause on average about 8-10 unsaved wounds vs T4 targets when charging.

It might even get to the stage where I'd prefer the Giant to my catapults, since they're taking a pretty massive drop in usefulness this edition.

Kayosiv
19-06-2010, 08:54
I believe stomp attacks happen last, not sure that's before or after great weapons... or perhaps I'm just wrong and then happen during other attacks.

Regardless, I doubt they would contribute to his unstoppable assault rule.

Gorak
19-06-2010, 09:05
I have a pro, no lost consentraition in the magics phase! you don't lose the rest of your magic just because you fail to cast a spell!

Spiney Norman
19-06-2010, 09:21
I have a pro, no lost consentraition in the magics phase! you don't lose the rest of your magic just because you fail to cast a spell!

While thats true, compared to other magic spells our incantations are ultra-tame, and any way, this has always been the case, its not actually a gain at all.


I believe stomp attacks happen last, not sure that's before or after great weapons... or perhaps I'm just wrong and then happen during other attacks.

Regardless, I doubt they would contribute to his unstoppable assault rule.

I understood the rumour to be that stomp attacks hit automatically and had the always strikes last rule. In any case the bone giant's unstoppable assault rule is fairly specific, "for every wounding hit that the Bone giant inflicts when it charges (before saving throws)..."

They'll have to errata it if they didn't want stomp attacks to be effected by Unstoppable assault, which would kinda suck because BGs are bad enough already.

Voss
19-06-2010, 14:19
To the point: TKs cannot be played in the current edition without an epic errata. The magic system is simply not compatible in any sort of reasonable way.
True, its either terrible or ridiculously spammable, depending on the interpretation favored.



In addition, there has to be an errata for Crumble special rule to account for Steadfast, likely losing no additional casualties.

Sadly, this isn't going to happen, though personally I don't think it needs to. Unstable is virtually identical to crumble, and is in the main rules. If I recall correctly, it doesn't have any caveats for steadfast, so there is no reason to expect crumble will.

Cragspyder- thats essentially it, for the how bound items work in 8th. Consider, however, it also means the Liche High Priest has a hard time casting spells (since his are generated at 3d6), and since they don't have a magic level, they have a harder time casting than real wizards do.

The other option which other people seem to favor, is just to follow the TK rules as they currently work. Which means you pack you character allowance and get 8 autocast, no miscast spells per turn (at various power levels from a king, a LHP and 4 LPs). Pretty much no one can dispel that, plus the actual bound spells from magic items, which you could use your unnecessary power dice on.

But anyway, I expect a very large errata for tomb kings, to clear up a lot of issues, including the bone giants thunderstomp attacks and how it interacts with unstoppable charge. I doubt very much that GW is going to let it generate the potential attacks that interaction allows.

Lilike
19-06-2010, 15:42
Most things have already been said by spiney and others. One thing that I didn't see mentioned is the fact that, relatively speaking, our incantations are becoming weaker than before. The importance of getting the charge is clearly being reduced in 8:th (not saying it will be unimportant just less important). Since the movement incantation have previously been our big game winner this is a slight nerf. The bigger nerf however comes from the fact that the normal lores are becoming so much stronger relative to what they were before. I know some people like to argue that things becoming stronger doesn't equal an nerf for the things that is left unchanged but since the important thing is the relative strength of each army an massive buff to the base lores will make TK incantations appear less impressive than before.

Let's face it, with the changes that 8:th brings (already discussed above) the TK will need to have an crazy magic phase to be playable in 8:th. Unfortunately I doubt this will be the case, as much as I love GW art, stories and models the company clearly doesn't care if an army becomes unplayable. Most likely TK will take one for the team and become an normal army with 2D6 casting dice being limited to casting relatively weak spells.

On the plus side the scorpion might get thunderstomp attacks making it even more of an no-brainer choice!

Colfax
19-06-2010, 17:16
With the change to RiP spells and how powerful some of them are the bound item that gets rid of all RiP spells in play might actually have a use now