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CaliforniaGamer
18-06-2010, 22:44
8th ed is making large blocks of on foot marauders not just viable but neccessary: as a Steadfast anvil, to deny Steadfast to enemy blocks, to contest/claim objectives etc. I would guess most of the all-Cav or near Cav 7th WoC players are figuring out how to include these guys into their lists now that 8th ed is known.

1.) First ? will be size: Im thinking minimum of 25 to a maximum of 40. From my games so far, I would definitely avoid horde formations.

2.) I see multiple flavors of marauder that will be good and am unclear as to the winner:
~Flails, unmarked: str 5 attacks in rd1 with still the ability to preceed many troop types due to their inherent Int4, but loses steam in protracted combats
~Great Weapons, unmarked: will strike last but have more staying power to produce casualties over time, great against T3 blocks.
~HW/Shield/LA+Mark of Tzeentch: fantastic defensive option with +5AS/5+ ward but doesnt have the ability to produce body counts like the above options.
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For numbers, Im leaning toward blocks of 30. Including 2 of these blocks with music and standard at 2250 points.

For equipment, Im not a huge fan of the mid range compromise of flails (lacking the staying power of Tzeentch HW/S and the prolonged killing power of GWs).

I think part of my problem is determining what the heck I want these marauders to do exactly: 1.) tarpit/deny steadfast while pinning units into position for flank charges by the Hammer Units (ie Chaos Knights, Chosen etc) in which cast Tzeentch HW/S is better or 2.) engage units on their own and win combats in which case GWs seem better.

Anyone playing 8th ed currently with WoC currently and facing this issue?

I just dont want to model up 60+ troops and realize I "chose poorly".

Vsurma
18-06-2010, 23:41
Horde I think will work best on exactly the kind of model marauders are, they have to be both cheap and powerful, in this case GW gives them this.

30+ marauders (you want to have 30 after casualties)
3*10 formation
Mark of khorne
GW

Attacking in 3 ranks with GWs, first rank gets a bonus attack...
40 S5 attacks at an ok WS, not bad.

I suppose tzeentch going 5*5 would be decent for stopping the enemy and staying alive.

CaliforniaGamer
18-06-2010, 23:47
Horde I think will work best on exactly the kind of model marauders are, they have to be both cheap and powerful, in this case GW gives them this.

30+ marauders (you want to have 30 after casualties)
3*10 formation
Mark of khorne
GW

Attacking in 3 ranks with GWs, first rank gets a bonus attack...
40 S5 attacks at an ok WS, not bad.

I suppose tzeentch going 5*5 would be decent for stopping the enemy and staying alive.

Horde is a big liability. You can never move closer than 1" to any unit including your own as well as impassable terrain. With the amount of terrain on the board now (4+ D6 pieces), Horde hurts...alot. In addition, you are talking about only 6-7 more supporting attacks against std units AND you arent going to have the 6+ ranks a standard 5x6+ unit will have to absord wounds and still be Steadfast.

_dandaman_
19-06-2010, 02:34
In my 2500 list, I'm looking at 2 units of 50 with GW and MoK. 18 nurgle warriors, all exactly 1" apart. The price comes out to ~900 points, add in 2 hellcannons and 2 units of knights and you've got about 800 points to spend on characters! So even a fully kitted lord of either type, + lvl 2's/ exalteds and you've still probably got 150 - 200 points. Drogers? Hell yeah, loving WoC in 8th

Djekar
19-06-2010, 06:01
I'm definitely going to try out 50+ marauders with MoK and GWs for the first few games. The numbers are just sounding too good. Initial thoughts are to run them straight up the center to take advantage of their steadfast-ness and the knowledge that most anything coming in contact with them will get shredded. Looking at it more and more, I'm thinking of trying them on a flank - terrain willing of course. Who wants 50+ crazed mad-men bearing down on a flank?

Another fun option I've been considering is throwing them with good ol' Wulfrik on Seafang and having them yell "Surprise!" really loud when they roll to come on!

Cartoon
19-06-2010, 06:52
The only problem with that many marauders with Wulfrik is it's a lot of points to tie up in a unit that might not show up until turn 3, at which point the action might be far away from them. Then again if it does show up turn 1 or 2 they could really wreck some stuff.

Barry "the blade"
19-06-2010, 09:03
I realize that hoard is the new rule, and everyone wants to try it out, but have you put unit a of 50 marauders on the game table? Its fricking HUGE! I just can't see it being the best choice, especially for troops on the 25mm bases. I plan to keep to my units of 25-30, and bring lots of hammer units to support them. We'll see how it all plays out soon though.

Vile Druchii
19-06-2010, 10:50
I'm thinking of putting a unit or two of marauders together to support my troll king list (lots of Trolls and monsters essentially) and was considering whether all out offense (great weapons, MoK, horde) or defense (shield, MoT or MoN) would work best? Would a hard hitting, killy unit be worth it, or do I need an anvil for my Trolls?

Djekar
20-06-2010, 02:36
I'd go with the anvils. I think your trolls will probably be hammer-y enough.

Chaos257
20-06-2010, 03:51
Question...

If you start with 30 men and your ten wide and you take casualties can the back rank still fight ?

I've got my marauders set up as 6 by 5... armed with sheilds and given mark of tzeentch.

Is the 6+ ward save in addition to the usual sheild bonus of +1 save or does it ONLY provide you with the 6+ ward?

Zaustus
20-06-2010, 04:15
I haven't seen the book, but this is my understanding:

1) Not if you're striking after your opponent. If you have the same initiative you strike simultaneously, so in that case you would still get the attacks for the casualties.

2) Shields provide +1 armor save as normal. Fighting to the front with hand weapon + shield provides an additional 6+ ward save. This replaces the old "extra" +1 armor save. My assumption is that the Mark of Tzeentch will improve that to a 5+ ward save.

Chaos257
20-06-2010, 04:39
So how is Tzeench warriors with HW/S not the superior choice ? t4 3+ save and a 5+ ward save is crazy good... especailly if you get it say, six ranks deep !

5*6 or 6*5

I'd be inclined to do the same with marauders. Give them light armour and sheilds.. with mark of tzeench it is 208 points for a 30 man unit.

or 188pts with the khorne great weapon configuration

6*5 for that one I think.

Zaustus
20-06-2010, 04:56
I think MoT on Warriors/Marauders is certainly much more viable than it was in 7th. I wasn't a big fan of that mark on infantry before, but now that it makes their "parry" ward save reasonable, and MoS has been devalued by the reduced importance of psychology, I think Tzeentch makes a lot of sense for a defensive anvil unit.

You'll want to just give them shields (and light armor, in the case of Marauders). No halberds on the Warriors, since the new rules apparently force them to use the halberds if they have 'em. That is by far my least favorite change to the rules, by the way.

So yeah, Tzeentch = great anvil units. You'll still need some hammer units though, like Khorne Warriors with halberds or Khorne Marauders with GWs. Chaos Trolls, Ogres and Dragon Ogres in a 3x2 formation are all good hammers too. All of those monstrous infantry choices got a big buff from this new edition.

Back on-topic, it looks to me like the two best ways to field Marauders are now Tzeentch with LA + shield, and Khorne with GW. I don't like Nurgle on Marauders and never have, since they're cheap enough that you don't care if they're shot at, and it does almost nothing for them in combat. Slaanesh used to be great, but now you can keep a BSB nearby and not have to worry much about psychology anyway. So Tzeentch anvils and Khorne hammers it is for me.

Voss
20-06-2010, 05:03
I'll give odds that the army specific errata will say Mark of Tzeentch doesn't add to parry saves.

Chaos257
20-06-2010, 05:30
Dunno how g.w mauders will work. Unless you get charge... your basically screwed. Against H elves, it is almost useless. Almost any unit is going to kill most of your front row under the new rules. If you have sheild and tzeench you stand a good chance of surviving as an anvil.

Chaos257
20-06-2010, 05:34
I'll give odds that the army specific errata will say Mark of Tzeentch doesn't add to parry saves.

At that point I play a different army. Expensive models that cannot absorb a charge and have no missile support = lose. Elite troops that are second rate to any other elite troop in the game b.c of their slowness and high cost. They'll be frail with halberds. Too much risk of getting done in first round of combat by for example those hounds demons use.

For mauders it is not so bad b.c they're cheap, but your front row is almost never going to get to strike.

Zaustus
20-06-2010, 07:03
@Voss: I hope you're wrong! We'll just have to wait and see.

@Chaos257: I suggest you read Grimstonefire's rumor sticky in the rumor forum. A lot (a LOT) of things have changed with this edition, including who/how many models attack. I think you'll find it an interesting read.

Just to give you a taste: Marauders with GWs are good now, because casualties are removed from the back (and thus don't automatically reduce return attacks), and all infantry fight in two ranks by default. If you go 10 wide, called a horde, you get a 3rd rank to fight too. That's why people are talking about 50 Khorne Marauders... 10 wide means 40 attacks if you can get them all in combat, and you have enough bodies to soak up the incoming damage.

Chaos257
20-06-2010, 07:10
@Voss: I hope you're wrong! We'll just have to wait and see.

@Chaos257: I suggest you read Grimstonefire's rumor sticky in the rumor forum. A lot (a LOT) of things have changed with this edition, including who/how many models attack. I think you'll find it an interesting read.

Just to give you a taste: Marauders with GWs are good now, because casualties are removed from the back (and thus don't automatically reduce return attacks), and all infantry fight in two ranks by default. If you go 10 wide, called a horde, you get a 3rd rank to fight too. That's why people are talking about 50 Khorne Marauders... 10 wide means 40 attacks if you can get them all in combat, and you have enough bodies to soak up the incoming damage.

I had a read of the rule book yesterday and I was under the impression it worked exactly the same as before except you get support attacks. There are ways (as described) of getting additional ranks to attack as support attacks.

Are you suggesting that under the new rules you don't lose attacks from the front row in a 1:1 relationship to how many casualties you've taken ? I must have missed that because I read the combat section of the rule book.

zuriel45
20-06-2010, 08:13
chaos as i understand it theres a new rule called "step up" meaning any models killed in the front are immediately replaced by models behind them. In practice this means that models killed are strictly removed from the back forward.