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Vegeta365
18-06-2010, 23:50
Trying to make a new daemon army for fantasy that uses lots of the models I like plus some of the new models to be released.

I don't want to have my behind handed to me all the time so was looking for some advice what to change.

Keeper of Secrets (Forgeworld Zarakniel) siren song torment blade 480pts

Blue Scribes 81pts

Herald of Tzeentch master of sorcery spellbreaker 165pts

Herald Of Khorne Juggernaut Firestorm blade armour of khorne 190pts

Flesh houndsx5 175pts

Flamersx5 175pts

Flamersx5 175pts

Bloodlettersx14 full command 198pts

Horrorsx10 120pts

Horrorsx10 120pts

Horrorsx10 120pts

1999pts

The flamers should still be as great as ever and present a great blending opportunity for me when painting along with the new horror models. I think small cheap units will still be the way to go for horrors. Herald of Tzeentch will be great with the new powers. I would love to have more of him, but I feel the army needed a bit more punch so put the bloodletters in with the gorgeous blood crusher herald model. Thoughts on the need for this unit? Keeper of Secrets will be great now, the big winner of the big 4 I feel and I can use the gorgeous FW Zarakniel model.

The army is not that big, but not the smallest. Where am I going wrong?

Thanks for any help in any way.

immortal git
18-06-2010, 23:59
well its filth, two units of five flamers, everyones gonna love that.

tricker53
19-06-2010, 06:10
blue scribes now actually has to cast his spells, which is a huge nerf to him, since you cant just roll a 6 in the lore than get a free 13+ spell. in fact im not even sure if blue scribes is a sorceror at all; just a moving bound spell. in other words he might not be able to cast at all.

your best sorceror is a lv 2; in 8th its probably better to have 1 or 2 strong mages than lots of little ones. try making that kipper a lv 4.

flesh hounds have lost some of their punch with the new flank/rear bonus rules; try and get another 5 in there so you can get those bonuses.

with TLOS therell be some dispute as to whether youre allowed to use the Zarakynal model as your kipper, because A: its got a larger base size, and B: TLOS means itll be visible (and therefore can see almost everything and cast on almost everything) from any point on the table.

bloodletters have taken a fairly hefty buff in 8th ed in a few forms, such as (average) charge length increase, and doubling of their attacks on the front rank. in fact taking icon of endless war gives this unit one of the biggest charge ranges in the game. also i believe daemons can still have repeat magical items in 8th ed. id suggest getting more of these beasts in your list in exchange for a horror unit or 2.

Vegeta365
19-06-2010, 15:40
Unfortunately you only have 50pts to spend on a greater deamon at 2000pts so level 2 is max and then you can only give the 5pt upgrade. This is another alternative but I was under the impression that siren song is rather good. Only one use per game but if done at the right time can change the game on it's head.

The FW keeper is a bit bigger than the gw one but not that much bigger. I don't think there would be too many times TLOS would be effected, but if it happened I could use the regular sized ones size to check. It's mainly for the model. To be honest I don't think it would be an issue as sizes of greater daemon can vary. It's not like there actually is a standard size just a standard model but I shall see what the local opponents say when the time comes!

Blue scribes is not a sorcerer, bound spell and you choose the lore and roll randomly to see which spell gets used at it's base casting level so he should be quite good. Plus will boost my pool of power dice vs opponents magic.

I wasn't sure about flesh hounds. I quite like the models and thought I needed something fast for a flank. Can't see how I could squeeze another 175pts in so maybe I should just put in more bloodletters? What do people think?

Flamers do look to be amazing, but with some of the army book taking a drop in ability maybe this will balance out? If not I can change things!

Small units of horrors are just for the level 1 spell and potential to add to the power dice pool. In an ideal world I would have another tzeentch herald but I can't fit it in unless I drop the Khornate one which I think is needed. Unless those in the know dissagree?

Thanks for the comments. What does everyone think I should change keeping in mind the restrictions of 8th and the way the game may now change.

Is the army too small? What are the main tactics I should use. The Tzeentch heralds MOS will give me great flexibility, the army has some hard hitting but not any real staying power so I realy need to soften the enemy up first ith magic and shooting and then Use the Keeper and hard hitting units to win?

Thanks again

tartanjames
19-06-2010, 23:05
i walked into a gw today and had a little look at the new demons rules in the rule book and trust me you dont want you keeper of secrets to have siren song, combat res for demons has become really really nasty. Unless that demons is going after cavelry or flank hunting units its almost redundant. they've re written the instability rule so that you take as many wounds as you failed combat by rather than the leadership so really i would be tempeted to possibly field it with allure of slanesh and soul hunger, i mean making it so that they can't hit you and you do those wounds for combat res will make him/her/it quite handy. and another thing you can only spend 25% of the points of the game your playing on your lords and hereos so i mean that 916 points on special characters would need to be halved to be :-(. But I think in 2000 points you could probably get some use out of a skulltaker on jugger the changeling and your herald of tzeetch. I know that you want to use the keeper but at this points cost he wont be that viable unless you want to drop that other hereos.

kaintxu
20-06-2010, 03:37
where did you look at those new daemon rules? O thought nothing would be out untill the faq camed out which is not still in.

Siren song is still great against lots of things. Keeper is now a I10 ASF dude so he has 6 WS9 attacks that are Allways, well almost allways going to rerroll to hit, we are seeing 5-6 impact at S6 with -4 AS, so yea against big units does nothing, anything else is great.

Dude your way long is 25 for lords, and 25 for heroes, i think you didnt walk at all at a GW store and checked the book being so missinformed

tricker53
20-06-2010, 05:27
unless blue scribes specifically states he does not need to cast, in 8th edition he needs to cast the spell he rolls for. as hes not a sorceror, he cant even do that. FAQ/errata should fix this.

i suggest removing the horrors in order to fit more bloodletters and flesh hounds without removing anything more meaningful to your list. lv 1s arent very useful in 8th ed, whether youre using them for channelling purposes only or not. youll have +1 to cast against something like +6 to dispel most of the time, have fun with that. alternatively you could combine those horrors into a big unit of 30 with the horde rule and quite possibly compete in combat as well.

siren song is still good on the kipper; just use it to hunt other characters naive enough to go solo. if they have a flying/cavalry mount most of the time theyll have no choice but to charge you, and the +1 resolution wont make a large difference in the long run since the kipper can lay out most other armies' lords and heroes. also note your kipper has 7 attacks, not 6 due to torment blade being a 2nd hand weapon.

in 8th edition the number of power dice in an army has been relatively normalised, making armies like VC and tzeentch daemons relatively weaker as casters, and non-casting armies relatively stronger. ive found my kipper can cast twice as effectively with the rumoured new magic phase rules. although i guess since you have no BSB that can take great icon of despair, the lore of tzeentch benefits your list more anyway.

Vegeta365
20-06-2010, 10:15
I assumed that people wouldnt bother throwing one dispell dice at my horrors spell which has only cost me one power dice as the dispell pool will be lower than the power pool and they will have no dice to stop the Tzeentch heralds MOS power which will likely be something geared to do serious damage to my opponent. If this is not how it will play out then there may be no point to the horrors at all. Wouldn't it be wrong to put the Tzeentch herald in with say bloodletters though lol. Im not convinced that large units of horrors will be good enough though time will tell.

Yeah bluescribes will be fixed when the rulebook is released if there is a wording issue, and he seems to be very good for his points cost. You can't always squeeze another full cost herald in either at 2000pts.

Mono Tzeentch needed to be made weaker as it was no fun to play against for the vast majority of armies. Maybe now it will be more balanced or maybe it's swung too far the other way and will be no good at all.

How is youre Keeper twice as effective at casting now? What points level are you playing and what magic level is youre keeper? Do you play mono Slannesh?

Do you think fiends may be a better option now than flesh hounds or just different?

I think the list is ok, not sure what slight modifications it needs yet, both from a gaming point of view and the look of the army.

tricker53
21-06-2010, 03:51
i do play mono slaanesh, and as a result in 2k i could get upto 8 power dice in my list in 7th ed, only 4 of which my kipper actually used, because i dont like trying to cast 5+ with 1 dice on my other 2 caster heralds. now with 2D6 casting dice, and my kipper being the only caster in my army, and +4 to cast, hes more than twice as good you might even say.

fiends require less models for the flank bonus, but dont get that lovely 2+ ward save against offensive magic. but they do get more attacks than flesh hounds now as the 2nd rank has 3 attacks per fiend. id say they are better.

you make a valid argument with regards to the horrors, although i believe itll all boil down to what you roll each turn for your power dice. if you roll a 1 on either dice, it means youll only have 1 more power dice than the opponent has dispel, and theyre likely to have more of a modifier than your caster does, especially if you try and cast with the horrors. on the other hand, if you can roll 5+ on both dice, then its definitely worth it.

large units of horrors benefit surprisingly well from the horde rule, just because people took them in those sorts of numbers anyway, and they used to be lame in combat mainly because of lack of attacks. now they can possibly compete, especially if the large unit is all getting +1 to ward saves from a herald. not to mention itll be at +3 or +4 to cast. however, they do lose 100% of their mobility and manoeuvrability, and take up 12" of your frontline.