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Xyrex
19-06-2010, 05:39
So we all know marines are much weaker in game than in the fluff, so how good (stats) do you think marines are on the field? I don't mean it has to do anything with being fair and balancing a game, but just how good would they be?

I was thinking:

WS BS S T W I _A Ld Sv
__4_5_4_5_2_4_2_9 2+

Bolter: S5 Ap5, assault, 24"

Solar_Eclipse
19-06-2010, 06:47
Depends, do you want to go with the 'realistic' view of marines? Ala the second edition and early 3rd edition fluff. Or the Comic book view of marines as per the newer codices.

If its the former, which i prefer, i wouldnt change a thing.

The Orange
19-06-2010, 06:56
See if you can find the "Movie Marines" rules that GW printed out some time ago. Donno if it's avilable online but iirc it was printed in US WD300.

EmperorEternalXIX
19-06-2010, 07:05
I would just give them counterattack, and make it so they could split off fire from their heavy weapons. That would be more than enough to make them feel a bit more like the stories without totally making them broken.

enigma-96
19-06-2010, 07:07
The stats for marines are actually pretty close....(the 2+ you suggested would be more accurate though) the things is it isn't that marines are ROFLpwn whole armies because of their gear, it's that they are super duper trained soldiers with HUNDREDS of years of training and biological conditioning making them easily 100x better than any commando-esque soldier we have now...I.e. Spetznaz. In other words, they don't outbrawn the enemy, they out think them.

azimaith
19-06-2010, 07:19
The biggest problem I see with a lot of the movie marines set ups is the increase in toughness. Marines are tough, but they're hardly invulnerable, a krak missile will tear apart a marine, its a weapon designed to destroy battle tanks. Playing marines to the "fluff" is more of an exercise in tactical excellence than stupid stats. All you need for movie marines are stats as is with better deployment options/game options. IE voluntarily passing or failing morale. They're pretty close to the background as is.

Radium
19-06-2010, 07:20
The problem is, you can't just ramp up the stats on marines and call it fluffy. If you want to make the game fluffy, IG needs to get weakened, Eldar can dodge bullets and Tyranids all cost 0.0001 point. I think the balance of the various factions is reasonably well represented. Everyone is toned down from the fluff, so we can play this little game.

However, if you want to stay to true to the fluff, I think you've pretty much done it, although I'd consider getting the strength up to 5 as well. And give them pretty much every USR.

Bookwrak
19-06-2010, 07:23
So we all know marines are much weaker in game than in the fluff
So you say. The matter is quite arguable though.

Darwin_green
19-06-2010, 07:35
I'm in the same boat with Chaos marines. I want them to be "better" than their imperial brethren, like how chaos warriors are to empire soldiers in fantasy.

But, i could say that they used to be really awesome, but gotten sloppy like a smart kid who drops out of school.

Hellebore
19-06-2010, 07:46
If you want them to be tougher without making them immune to ID from krak etc, give them toughness in brackets. So marines would be T4(5).

That said, the D6 system used in 40k has too few variables to represent things in a more realistic fashion.

Using D10s I had humans at S/T 3, orks at S/T 4, marines at 5, nobs at 5 etc.

Hellebore

JoeRugby
19-06-2010, 10:51
That said, the D6 system used in 40k has too few variables to represent things in a more realistic fashion.

Using D10s I had humans at S/T 3, orks at S/T 4, marines at 5, nobs at 5 etc.

Hellebore

For me Hellebore has just got a hole in one with this, the D6 system is too limiting and going to a D10 System would open up a lot more options as far as having all our fav armies be more fluff like with less ambiguity with the stats, but from a GW standpoint i canít see this happening.

With fluff marines i donít think they would/should ever get to a stage where they are shown like they are in the old =][= game, but there should be some option to bring the marines more in line with the 40k Lore.

Logan_uc
19-06-2010, 11:30
The problem is, you can't just ramp up the stats on marines and call it fluffy. If you want to make the game fluffy, IG needs to get weakened, Eldar can dodge bullets and Tyranids all cost 0.0001 point.

if something IG is weekened to make others look better, the nis and eldar thing i wont even comment, marines are good as they are, they are super human dont now fear and have better gear and training, thats it.

Gargantuan
19-06-2010, 11:54
Their fluffy power level depends on which story you're reading. There's a short story in one WD about a group of marines getting ambushed by orks and the orks have no trouble almost cutting the marines in two. If you increase the stats of marines then you have to change most zenos races too. An ork is more robust than a marine, Eldar are much faster necron guns should be very brutal etc.

Crovax20
19-06-2010, 12:25
Their fluffy power level depends on which story you're reading. There's a short story in one WD about a group of marines getting ambushed by orks and the orks have no trouble almost cutting the marines in two. If you increase the stats of marines then you have to change most zenos races too. An ork is more robust than a marine, Eldar are much faster necron guns should be very brutal etc.

Necron gauss weapons would not have to roll to wound basically, as anything that hits you starts stripping your whole body apart, even though it only hit your little toe. Hell it would probably just strip the whole armor with it.

Askari
19-06-2010, 19:19
Space Marines are as good as the fluff says they are already, maybe give them 2 attacks basic, or give all Marines BP&CCW but that's as far as I'd go. Compare them to other armies troops, individually they are better than any one you can pick, except perhaps a Necron Warrior. Just like they should be.

I'd also give increases to more veteran Marines WS and BS. Sternguard BS5, Vanguard and Terminators WS5.

Chaos Marines need a mild buff to be more powerful than their loyalist brethren, Chaos Marine A2. Champion/Chosen/Terminator A2 WS5 & BS5, Chosen/Terminator Champion A2 W2 BS5 & WS5, yeah, they should be mini-HQs.

spetswalshe
19-06-2010, 19:46
To be fair, in the fluff they rarely actually carry bolt pistols. Certainly I've never read a story where a Marine is wearing a holster - and artwork tends to forget necessities like spare ammunition, or grenades, or somewhere to hang your helmet when you're not wearing it.

Project2501
19-06-2010, 21:19
I would say that Wolf Guard are as close to 'fluffy' marines as you can get tbh.

The Inevitable One
19-06-2010, 22:14
As far as I have seen, the difference between the Space Marines in lore and in actual game play are the wounds. Some Space Marine implants were specifically designed to stop bleeding and if it struck a vital organ, they were able to still move on because they had more than one such as the second heart or third lung. So the only thing I would increase on the stats are the wounds which would move from one to two.

Project2501
19-06-2010, 22:19
As far as I have seen, the difference between the Space Marines in lore and in actual game play are the wounds. Some Space Marine implants were specifically designed to stop bleeding and if it struck a vital organ, they were able to still move on because they had more than one such as the second heart or third lung. So the only thing I would increase on the stats are the wounds which would move from one to two.

I think the USR 'Feel No Pain' would cover this better.

AFnord
19-06-2010, 22:41
It feels more like its armour being the main difference. In the fluff, space marine armour seem to be tougher than it is in game.

But apart from that, the stats only seem to be a slight downscale to what they actually are supposed to be. It is not so much marines superior gear & weapons that makes them superior as their tactics & training. They strike swift & hard, as a team, where the enemy is vulnerable, and move out. Marines are not meant for prolonged battles. In prolonged battles, marines will almost always loose.

The problem with kicking marines up into the T5 range is that they suddenly become as tough as wraith guards, which they are not supposed to be. Heck, tyranid warriors are supposed to be tougher than marines, and they are only T4 (but have 3 wounds to reflect their extra "toughness"), so marines don't deserve T5.

Vaktathi
19-06-2010, 22:47
So we all know marines are much weaker in game than in the fluff, so how good (stats) do you think marines are on the field? I don't mean it has to do anything with being fair and balancing a game, but just how good would they be?

I was thinking:

WS BS S T W I _A Ld Sv
__4_5_4_5_2_4_2_9 2+

Bolter: S5 Ap5, assault, 24"

This all depends on which fluff you prefer.

If you use the Codex standard 10 men for every Space Marine/"A dozen men for every Astartes" type thing, the current statline and forces represents this very well and needs no changing.

If you subscribe to some of the more extravagant fluff (e.g. Brothers of the Snake) Then you'd need to give them near Daemon Prince stats.

Xyrex
20-06-2010, 02:19
Personally, I always thought marines should have orders, like the guard. The thought of 1st rank fire, 2nd rank fire with bolters makes me drool. They always point out how the captains are great leaders, but on the fields i use them exclusively as warriors.

WS 5
BS 5
S 5
T 4 (5)
W 2
A 2
I 4
Ld. 9
Sv. 2+

FNP
Give captains the IG order system, but improved
stubborn
Furious charge