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View Full Version : 8th Ed, High Elf Spears and Teclis.



Tolinwiz
19-06-2010, 06:42
One of the new lores allows you to use your leadership as your strength. I believe it goes off on an 18+. Teclis throwing 6 dice will pretty much gaurantee getting this off every turn.

If you run say, 70 spearmen in a horde, won't you be getting (assuming fighting someone 10 wide) 50 attacks back, re-rolling misses, at str 9?

Am I off here?

LKHERO
19-06-2010, 08:12
Did not see this spell today :P

ROCKY
19-06-2010, 08:23
u also will probably kill every elf in the unit, due to teclis casting irrisitable force on every double. i would laugh and whip out the puppet and just watch teclis nuke himself to death.

minionboy
19-06-2010, 09:27
u also will probably kill every elf in the unit, due to teclis casting irrisitable force on every double. i would laugh and whip out the puppet and just watch teclis nuke himself to death.

IF caused by items/abilities do not also cause Miscast. Miscasts caused by items/abilities do not also cause IF. It's spelled out pretty clearly in the new rules. Teclis is still as amazing as ever.

Sinaris
19-06-2010, 12:08
As awesome as it will be, I think that it will gain you many games as people generally don't like having their asses kicked, and why would they?

I play High Elves myself, but keeping the fun in the game to me, involved both parties, thats not saying I won't give it a shot ever, but yeah, i think you catch my drift.

Mudkip
19-06-2010, 12:13
It's hardly the height of cheese. We're talking 1000 points for a single character and a block of spearmen.

Sinaris
19-06-2010, 12:20
The cost is in Teclis, not the spearmen. That spell can be cast on any of our close combat units and they then chop the **** out of everything and anything no sweat.
Were always going to have our Spears in one form or another due to % req.
Of course, depends who your fighting, and what theyre bringing, but I feel that bringing this to the table is asking for them to bring their own cheese, which furthers the arms race until theres nothing but formaggio on the plate.

ROCKY
19-06-2010, 15:20
IF caused by items/abilities do not also cause Miscast. Miscasts caused by items/abilities do not also cause IF. It's spelled out pretty clearly in the new rules. Teclis is still as amazing as ever.

so what you are saying is that it is impossible to miscast unless you roll a double six or unless something forces you to do it (IE, black tongue, or pandamoium)?

Teal_AP
19-06-2010, 15:34
That is correct. AS WELL teclis will ignore the first mascast caused in every turn. The rule says no miscast caused by an item/or rule except on a 6

LKHERO
19-06-2010, 18:15
Just wait for the FAQ plz.

Vsurma
19-06-2010, 22:43
Yea those spearmen will kill anything!

It's not a bad tactic imo, just make sure your block is large enough to take a turn of attacks if your not the one doing the charging.

I can't imagine a better unit to use the spell on really, ASF and lots of attacks is exactly what your looking for. Very mean.

TheDarkDaff
19-06-2010, 22:59
Seaguard are a better unit, especially with the new shooting rules for bows. A unit like that can compete a few phases.

Gaargod
20-06-2010, 01:25
FAQ needed on that on Teclis. The book specifically says 'automatically' causing miscasts/irresistables. It does not mention items/rules which cause miscasts/irresistables required on some other event.

In other words, it stops Black Tongue making a spell an irresistbale, because that's an automatic effect, but doesn't stop Teclis blowing himself up.

Moreover, i'm pretty sure Teclis' specific rules for ignoring 1 miscast per turn state that the spell still fails - even though in new 8th ed, it wouldn't do.

I was reading the book earleir today and Teclis came into the conversation, so we looked it up. It currently can be argued either way. RaW, probably not. RaI, yes he's meant to - but he was always a stupidly good character and now has got to the level of super ridiculousness with the new lores, so i'm generally taking the line 'oh well. S*** happens'

minionboy
20-06-2010, 01:43
so what you are saying is that it is impossible to miscast unless you roll a double six or unless something forces you to do it (IE, black tongue, or pandamoium)?

Currently, it's impossible to miscast unless you roll double ones or unless something forces you to do it. :P

Not much difference, except now the way the rules work is that double 6's cause IF. Under the new rules for IF, IF also causes a miscast after the effects of the spell are worked out. Then there is a paragraph which relates to items/abilities which force IF/Miscasts.

This means that the sentence "...on any successful casting roll which includes a double, except a Miscast." no longer has much meaning, due to the fact that no dice roll combination causes a miscast (Ring of Hotek aside), there is only a dice roll which causes IF.



FAQ needed on that on Teclis. The book specifically says 'automatically' causing miscasts/irresistables. It does not mention items/rules which cause miscasts/irresistables required on some other event.

In other words, it stops Black Tongue making a spell an irresistbale, because that's an automatic effect, but doesn't stop Teclis blowing himself up.

Moreover, i'm pretty sure Teclis' specific rules for ignoring 1 miscast per turn state that the spell still fails - even though in new 8th ed, it wouldn't do.

I was reading the book earleir today and Teclis came into the conversation, so we looked it up. It currently can be argued either way. RaW, probably not. RaI, yes he's meant to - but he was always a stupidly good character and now has got to the level of super ridiculousness with the new lores, so i'm generally taking the line 'oh well. S*** happens'

I don't think there is really much to debate.

The word "automatically" doesn't really change anything, no ability in existence automatically does anything, you have to activate it. A bow that automatically wounds wont do so if you don't roll to hit first, likewise an ability that automatically causes IF on any double wont cause the miscast if you don't attempt to cast a spell. Automatically also is there to presume the lack of a choice, with Teclis, you don't have the choice to not cast on IF if you roll doubles. You can't automatically do something if you don't do it, now can you.

Now with that said, all items/abilities in the game which cause a miscast or IF, will not also cause the other effect unless specifically mentioned.

EDIT: Just because I like the dictionary, here is a usage description for the word "automatic": That which is automatic, however, is an invariable reaction to a fixed type of stimulus.

Teclis's IF is an invariable reaction to a roll of doubles.

Vsurma
20-06-2010, 07:23
Well, teclis is a very expensive and very fragile mage, they will of course change how he works to fit the new book so I wouldn't worry about it too much.

He is somewhat of a signature character, one of the most recognized in the game. They will fix it to work (of course the question is when)

LKHERO
20-06-2010, 08:06
Just so we're clear.. Teclis is by FAR the most expensive gamble HE players will have to deal with in this new edition.

Why? Because there's a scroll out there that lets him get his spell off and take a dice roll with every dice he threw to cast the spell. Oh, your Flames of the Phoenix went off IF? Good for you. Now throw the same amount of dice you did to cast the spell. On 5 and 6s, you take a wound with no armor saves. Oh you don't have a ward? Sadness follows.

Not to mention the gamble of casting multiple spells with such a crazy lose control chart. You think I want to risk a fourth of my army on one character that can potentially kill himself + people around him?

Teclis just went from relatively safe to one of the biggest gambles in all of Warhammer.

Vsurma
20-06-2010, 08:12
I do believe those scrolls do not work when the opponent rolls a IF result. Could be wrong but I don't recall any change to this.

It is also a fairly expensive item, taking the mages entire item allowance so I don't think they will be that common, though it does rock against non armoured mages (did it allow normal saves?)

LKHERO
20-06-2010, 08:19
There's also a Frog scroll out there.

IF or not, it says once the spell goes through, you can apply this effect..etc.

Vsurma
20-06-2010, 08:54
Ok, well that is nice, still their cost is rather high, you can take no other item on the mage.

I imagine they will be popular in armies like orks where the actual mage is very cheap, but taking them in other armies where you mage costs 100+ points is harder because then you cannot take any other nice items.

Good items none the less.

Sinaris
20-06-2010, 09:28
Hehe, reminds me of that bit of fluff where a High Elf mage turned himself into a plant for a couple of centuries.

TheSanityAssassin
21-06-2010, 01:21
Hehe. Yeah....Elf mages tend to get a bit "mad scientist" at times.

Marshal Torrick
21-06-2010, 02:50
Teclis(and any HE mage with the Book of Hoeth) should be throwing MAX 4 dice at spells to get a good shot at doubles, but not too great of a chance to get double 6's. He should be going for the up-sized version of spells, too. The Mega-Comet(tm) needs 25 to cast, unless of course you just cast IF. Those scrolls do spell a great deal of pain for him, but not as much if he only threw 4 dice.

Also, miscasts only happen on double 6s, unless an item causes it to happen(RoH for example).

Punjoke
21-06-2010, 04:57
Teclis(and any HE mage with the Book of Hoeth) should be throwing MAX 4 dice at spells to get a good shot at doubles, but not too great of a chance to get double 6's.

Double 6's won't really scare Teclis unless he receives a lot of errata. He ignores the effects of his first Miscast every turn (meaning that with the new rules, it will first cast with IF and then he will ignore the subsequent miscast.)

Being able to almost guarantee that a key spell goes off, with the only risk being that your enemy might have brought a scroll that might kill him, is not a big risk at all.

HeroFox
21-06-2010, 05:31
Right now, HE are in a desperate need of an errata. The big one would be GW vs SoA and ASL, but another one would be Teclis and Book of Hoeth.

The new IF makes it so if you get IF off, the spell goes off regardless or not you hit the casting value. With a Book of Hoeth, I can cast 1,1,2 and I'll get off a 25+ to cast spell. The downside is that if I do this, I will miscast. The new rules state that if I IF, I miscast. Teclis gets to ignore this.. but Book of Hoeth is a suicide item at the moment. I'm really interested in what will change in the errata..

Punjoke
21-06-2010, 06:01
The new IF makes it so if you get IF off, the spell goes off regardless or not you hit the casting value. With a Book of Hoeth, I can cast 1,1,2 and I'll get off a 25+ to cast spell. The downside is that if I do this, I will miscast. The new rules state that if I IF, I miscast.

No, you don't.

There are three different rules here: Irresistible Force, Miscasts, and Loss of Control.

Loss of Control occurs when you roll double 6's. If your wizard suffers Loss of Control his spell is cast with Irresistible Force, followed by your wizard suffering a miscast.

Items that cause Irresistible Force do not cause Loss of Control, and thus do not miscast. Likewise items that cause miscasts do not trigger Loss of Control and thus the spell is not cast with Irresistible force (interestingly, this wouldn't actually cause the spell to fail unless the item specifies that it does.)

The Book of Hoeth will cause IF on any doubles. If those doubles are 6's, the wizard will suffer Loss of Control.

HeroFox
21-06-2010, 07:40
Yeah I'll wait for the errata :)

I mean, it'll be really nice to see a 23+ to cast Purple Sun go off on my roll of 1,1 and 2.

Vsurma
21-06-2010, 09:26
Well, teclis is T2 so he has his weakness even if he can cast with IF all the time.
He is supposed to be the most powerful non slann mage around so I wouldn't complain too much about his power, he is very expensive and a special character so you most likely won't have to play against him if you don't want.

The book of hoeth is also expensive and the character has no miscast protection if he takes the book and I personally miscast enough on even 3 dice for it to matter.

You just have to go hunt those characters down.

King_Pash
21-06-2010, 14:41
Yeah I'll wait for the errata :)

I mean, it'll be really nice to see a 23+ to cast Purple Sun go off on my roll of 1,1 and 2.

Except that the new rulebook states that a natural roll of a 1 or 2 is always a fail so in your example, I would suspect the spell still equals a fail. Also, why are we suspecting that you don't have to meet the casting value to IF with Teclis/BoH? It is the case in 7th Ed, how would this change at all in 8th Ed?

Wednesday Friday Addams
21-06-2010, 14:44
Except that the new rulebook states that a natural roll of a 1 or 2 is always a fail so in your example, I would suspect the spell still equals a fail. Also, why are we suspecting that you don't have to meet the casting value to IF with Teclis/BoH? It is the case in 7th Ed, how would this change at all in 8th Ed?

If the total is a natural 1 or 2 it fails

King_Pash
21-06-2010, 15:15
If the total is a natural 1 or 2 it fails

So a 1, 1, 1 would be cast on IF then? Seems a bit far-fetched to me..

Wednesday Friday Addams
21-06-2010, 15:22
So a 1, 1, 1 would be cast on IF then? Seems a bit far-fetched to me..

From what I read...yes.
But in how you explain it a spell cast on 4, 6 ,3,2 would fail.
In the current edition a 2 can't caste a spell regardless of modifiers however a 2,2 result is fine.

Tolinwiz
21-06-2010, 17:46
Pretty sure there is an errata for Teclis somewhere that states for his IF to happen, he needs to meet the minimum casting value for the spell. I would assume that would still be in play.

Wednesday Friday Addams
22-06-2010, 09:24
I did a brief glance at the faq and Errata and I didn't see that.

kaintxu
22-06-2010, 22:32
Well, teclis is T2 so he has his weakness even if he can cast with IF all the time.
He is supposed to be the most powerful non slann mage around so I wouldn't complain too much about his power, he is very expensive and a special character so you most likely won't have to play against him if you don't want.

The book of hoeth is also expensive and the character has no miscast protection if he takes the book and I personally miscast enough on even 3 dice for it to matter.

You just have to go hunt those characters down.


IF he onbly gets mistcast on double 6 he is way more powerfull than any slann can be, i mean with the new lores, IF on any doubl eis mad, you have really good spells, killer spells and he will allways never be hit by mistcasts.

HE can anihilate armies before they get to combat with no risk or no opposition, tell me a slann who can make that for that points cost.

A Slann can easily go up to 450 points and not be as killy

enyoss
22-06-2010, 23:44
Pretty sure there is an errata for Teclis somewhere that states for his IF to happen, he needs to meet the minimum casting value for the spell. I would assume that would still be in play.

Not even in the errata, it's in his rules, and those of the Book of Hoeth too (although it was clarified in the FAQ also). For both of them, you only get IF if your roll includes a double AND it meets the casting requirements for the spell. On the face of it nothing in the new rules set changes that at all, so 1,1,2 to cast Purple Sun will be a failure to cast as you have not met the casting value.

Overall though, everyone needs to wait for the errata before knowing what is really going on.

HeroFox
23-06-2010, 01:04
Yes, its in his rules that states he needs to hit the casting value.

But the IF rules in the new book says that if you IF, you can ignore the casting value.

I just want the FAQ to clear this up, that's all. Otherwise, I'll go with what my book says and ignore the IF rule completely, except for the double 6s of course. If anything, the double 6s kinda nerfs the book of hoeth. Having to reach a casting value without the 6s is kinda rough.

Foxbat
23-06-2010, 01:40
While 7th and 8th will be substantially different, we do know that the HE competitive builds had been reduced to just two: (1) Lord on a Star Dragon based lists (main build) or (2) Teclis based lists (weaker alternative).

With the new composition rules in 8th edition a fully loaded Star Dragon is really not possible below 2500 pts. As a result, at point levels below 2500 pts HE players may find that their competitive list options have been narrowed to only Teclis based lists. Don’t forget at 2250 pts, DoC players will still be able to field a fully tooled Bloodthirstier.

As I would expect that GW is fully aware of this, I think that the FAQ will clarify Teclis’ rules to:
- cast with IF without Loss of Control on any double other than 6’s provided the roll is above the spell’s casting value;
- cast with IF with Loss of Control on double 6’s;
- ignores the first Loss of Control result each magic phase; and
- can change his Lore between games.

Oh yeah, no change to his PD and DD generation rules or his sword.

HeroFox
23-06-2010, 02:21
As I would expect that GW is fully aware of this

Nope lol. I don't think they got a clue.

enyoss
23-06-2010, 03:31
But the IF rules in the new book says that if you IF, you can ignore the casting value.


That's what the rules for IF say in the existing 7th edition book too. The issue is that Teclis' (and the Book of Hoeth's) rules specifically state that you only get IF on a double if the casting value has already been met. The process is easy: has the casting value has been met? If so, then any doubles will give you IF. If not, doubles don't give you IF, proceed to dispelling. In this case, the fact that IF overrides the need to meet the casting value is redundant, as you aren't even granted IF unless you meet the casting value in the first place. It just means your opponent can't dispel it.

Well, I know that you know all this stuff, but everyone getting the whole Teclis/Book of Hoeth issue wrong has been getting on my wick since the new book came out, so I couldn't resist :p.

This, of course, is in 7th edition. As the rules in the new rulebook stand, it would work exactly the same way in 8th edition (well, from what I've seen anyway). But we all know that there is an extensive errata on the way, and none of us know what is in it, so all the second guessing of how `X will work with Y in 8th' (and in my opinion, all the `test games' and pre-emptive questions in the rules forum) is pretty pointless really.

Time to play the waiting game :).

HeroFox
23-06-2010, 07:37
That's what the rules for IF say in the existing 7th edition book too.

Why does everyone think this? :(
There's a specific section above the rules for Irresistable Force that states you gotta hit the casting value.

enyoss
23-06-2010, 09:10
The section for Irresistable Force says that:

"When rolling to cast a spell, any result of two or more unmodified 6s means that the spell has been cast with Irresistable Force".

Even if your casting roll is unsuccessful, you can satisfy this. This rule is in addition to the rule saying you have to reach the casting roll, it is not conditional on it.

Compare with:

"... any spell cast by Teclis will be cast with Irresistable Force on any successful casting roll which includes a double, except a Miscast."

Should you not reach the necessary casting roll the whole issue of `doubles cause IF' doesn't kick in here. The `doubles cause IF' is conditional on the casting roll being met.

Thankfully, these discussions will be behind us in a few weeks! Roll on 8th!

HeroFox
23-06-2010, 09:17
Alright, roll on 8th it is!

My 7th Ed. rulebook got lost in the dark abyss (I moved) so my memory is a little shaky.

King_Pash
23-06-2010, 09:35
As I would expect that GW is fully aware of this, I think that the FAQ will clarify Teclisí rules to:
- cast with IF without Loss of Control on any double other than 6ís provided the roll is above the spellís casting value;
- cast with IF with Loss of Control on double 6ís;
- ignores the first Loss of Control result each magic phase; and
- can change his Lore between games.

Oh yeah, no change to his PD and DD generation rules or his sword.

That's basically how I would see it as well. Otherwise Teclis would be waaay too broken in 8th Ed.

enyoss
23-06-2010, 09:44
My 7th Ed. rulebook got lost in the dark abyss (I moved) so my memory is a little shaky.

For the first time in my life I actually had both my rulebook and 7th edition High Elves book to hand, sliding out of the drawer like a well oiled machine. To do 23-Jun-10: get a life :D.

Sadly, me and my group reckon that 8th edition could be our new 3rd edition 40K: too splintered and scattered to get a game in, never get to grips with the radically new rules and fall by the wayside. Hopefully not though, as I've been really looking forward to the new rules!

Just realized I haven't said anything on topic for three posts, so here goes. That spell which swaps strength for leadership will be great on spearmen. There you go :).