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Vsurma
20-06-2010, 08:09
The way I see it the units that benefit from the extra rank of attacks are ones with a decent ws, high S attacks and are cheap (not many fit the bill)

The only 2 that really come to mind right now are:

Marauders, GW, mark of khorne for 40 S5 attacks at WS4 (if all can attack or 28 S5 attacks when fighting your average 5 wide unit), these guys cost 5pts per model + mark of khorne cost. Unit of 40-50 sounds right.

Or Dwarf warriors with GW, they are more expensive but have a higher toughness and save which adds to their ability to withstand damage, higher ld is also nice but seeing how large the unit is it will hopefully be within the generals ld anyway.

These 2 are actually cheap enough to run as horde.

I suppose you could throw the elven spear men in there, though they are not good on their own, if you buff the unit with magic they start to be.

Shadows S=ld will be nice, or the beasts +1S +1T etc.

Latro_
20-06-2010, 18:20
problem is marauders are on big bases, ye wont them all in.

Ye also forgetting spears. Small bases, cheap and spears are pretty sick I think. I'm taking 50 ungors lead by a doombull, 50 odd attacks :P

Icarus
20-06-2010, 18:45
40 Clanrats with Spears and Shields, + Full Command = 220 pts. I think that's a pretty good deal. Ok, maybe the attacks are not as deadly as the marauders, but its a boatload of attacks for a very cheap price. Copy/paste a few times in your list and you still have loads of points left over for super-killy stuff.

Latro_
20-06-2010, 18:56
yea i think its gonna be all about matching hordy stuff with hitty stuff. Since combats are going to last a lot longer now, there is time for those big hitters to get in on the flanks.

kramplarv
20-06-2010, 19:16
Why would i want to field 40-50 marauders when only 20 can fight??

30-40 seems more right... :p

Djekar
20-06-2010, 19:20
Because shooting/magic is deadlier now. Those extra bodies are there to soak up casualties and still be able to fight effectively. Same principle applies to combat. With more models dying on both sides now, the more models you have in a unit the longer said unit remains combat effective.

Vsurma
20-06-2010, 19:26
30 can fight.

If you take GWs you will strike last meaning you will take casualties.

So you want the 30 that can attack + enough models to to make sure that you actually have 30 AFTER their attacks.

Not to mention that fights will last multiple turns meaning you need more models to act as casualties.

The models have no armor, extra models are their armor, that is why you need more. Its like taking LA or shield for them, for the cost of taking said LA or shield you can get 6 extra models.

Take the models and leave the armour at home.

Latro_
20-06-2010, 19:52
I'm starting to wonder if fights will last more turns, ye only stubborn if you have more ranks then them and you cant assume they are just gonna have a 7th ed 25man unit, they'll be packing big ranks too.

nick_robinsonchia
20-06-2010, 20:30
Stormvermin, Greatswords, Skavenslaves with spears are all excellent choices.

N

Vsurma
20-06-2010, 21:25
Which is why horde units are only ones that won't lose, or ones that won't lose by much.

As I mentioned int he first post, Marauders with GWs and dwarves with GWs are so far the only units I would run as a horde.

They put out 10+ kills a turn which means they hopefully won't be losing.

Horde units themselves won't be stubborn most likely.

Avian
20-06-2010, 21:37
Surely Marauders with flails would be more tempting than great weapons, given that they strike at I4 instead of last.

Vsurma
20-06-2010, 21:43
I think the GW is the safer option.

The flails are superior for round 1 but after that they really suffer, the unit becomes worthless for the following turns and you can be sure the combat WILL last more than 1 turn, with a unit that large your opponent is likely to be the one doing the charges and he won't charge into a combat he doesn't like.

Casualties cost 5pts a model, does it really matter that you go 2nd?

It really depends on how many turns your average combat ends up lasting in the new rules. Kind of hard to know this.

Avian
20-06-2010, 21:50
Casualties cost 5pts a model, does it really matter that you go 2nd?
Of course it does, with 30 guys fighting, you have a very real chance of knocking off a good number of attacks off even quite large enemy units.

Idle Scholar
20-06-2010, 22:05
Is it better to have the extra ten (or possibly six if fighting a five wide 20 mm unit) attacks from frenzy or the -1 to hit from MoN?

Vsurma
20-06-2010, 22:32
The MON is one that does appeal to me, seeing as you can lose that frenzy after the first CC turn, while frenzy will stay and give your unit some protection.

I am too lazy to run the numbers right now but I think MON might come very close to the MOK as far as effectiveness goes.

nick_robinsonchia
20-06-2010, 22:42
MoN on maruaders is only good at fighting WS 2 or 5 opponents. Its not useful against any other number. WS 2 isnt that common nor is it any real threat. WS 5 is common for certain elite units. MoN isnt -1 to hit its -1 WS when attacking you. I think MoN isnt that effective on marauders and is better suited for warriors, making the common WS3 troop hit you on a 5+ and the hero/swordmasters with WS6 hit you on a four.

N

Edit: Saying that the -1 to hit from missilefire is nice in actually getting you into combat.

mistrmoon
20-06-2010, 23:44
Winner= DOW pikes. 10 wide, 6 deep, every model gets to fight.

Vsurma
21-06-2010, 08:36
Yea good point, its -1 WS, so it will effect models with WS 2,4 and 5.

Against ws4 enemies you will now hit on a 3+ rather than a 4+.
Against ws2 and 5 they have a harder time hitting you.

Doesn't seem to bad in that it helps against all but ws3, which you hit on a 3+ anyway.
Seems to me like it will help quit often, I don't think there are really any ws3 enemies that the marauders are really afraid of.

Well except saurus warriors but I reckon most will run HW/S and not really kill too many for the marauders to fear them.

Vsurma
21-06-2010, 08:37
Winner= DOW pikes. 10 wide, 6 deep, every model gets to fight.

Apart from marauders, those guys really aren't going to kill anything.

Though it would be a cool looking unit to run.

Godgolden
21-06-2010, 08:45
Yea good point, its -1 WS, so it will effect models with WS 2,4 and 5.

Against ws4 enemies you will now hit on a 3+ rather than a 4+.
Against ws2 and 5 they have a harder time hitting you.

Doesn't seem to bad in that it helps against all but ws3, which you hit on a 3+ anyway.
Seems to me like it will help quit often, I don't think there are really any ws3 enemies that the marauders are really afraid of.

Well except saurus warriors but I reckon most will run HW/S and not really kill too many for the marauders to fear them.

Sorry bud but read the errata, thats not how the mark of nurgle works :)

*SQUEE*
21-06-2010, 08:53
I ran a unit of 50 Mauraders with GW in horde formation with a Khorne exalted on Jugger in a game the other day. My opponent was playing Beastmen and ran a horde of 40 Gors with two hand weapons and a beastman hero.

We played the mission that you start 12 inches or greater away from the enemy (rolled for random mission) so our hordes were in combat of first turn.

On the first turn I killed his character in a challenge with mine and still lost combat as the Gors had hatred and really chewed me up as I had no save. I had more ranks so was stubborn and stuck around. Lost my frenzy first turn so that really sucked.

The combat went on for 4 rounds total and I lost the first 3 (was stubborn on the first two). On the 4th round I killed his unit to a man. If it wasn't for the Khorne hero I would have lost to 40 Gors. The hatred really was telling as he killed more then me until the last round were my extra 10 guys paid off.

It was a stupid fun combat :D.

Ramius4
21-06-2010, 09:02
Apart from marauders, those guys really aren't going to kill anything.

On the contrary. There are very few troops that will stand up well to them, especially if they don't have HW+Shield. In 8th, if you have any other weapon, you have to use it.

Things that Pikemen would absolutely murder:

Any Elves, Goblins, Empire troops, Marauders, Beastmen, Skeletons, Ghouls, Zombies (lol), Skaven, Skinks, Orcs, and even cavalry.

Having played a few test games of 8th, the old logic of spearmen being weak units that don't kill anything doesn't really apply any more. It's a totally different dynamic now. In 7th you could charge them and kill enough to reduce their attacks to the point of being ineffective. Not so anymore.

Just yesterday I had a unit of 30 HE Spearmen 7 wide and 4 deep absolutely decimate my Chaos Warriors that were 3 deep and 6 wide. How you ask? Well, I took Great Weapons, and that no longer allows you the flexibility to protect your troops by also getting a shield. The HE hit me either 25 or 26 times, and caused 9 wounding hits, of which I failed 5. It was a totally average result for 8th edition. My 18 return attacks caused about 8 casualties back, again, a totally average result now.

In 7th ed, if I knew the HE were attacking first I'd at least have had the flexibility of taking HW+shield. But even then, the extra ranks of spears really make a difference. The bigger the amount of dice you roll, the more saving throws you are going to force someone to make. The laws of probability are very much alive and well, and can work for you in 8th.

I don't expect you to believe me, but you will soon after you've played some games. Spearmen in big blocks are now something to be feared. Pikes would be even worse.

Vsurma
21-06-2010, 09:28
Sorry bud but read the errata, thats not how the mark of nurgle works :)

Explain, I just had a look and I don't see what I am missing.

Vsurma
21-06-2010, 09:38
On the contrary. There are very few troops that will stand up well to them, especially if they don't have HW+Shield. In 8th, if you have any other weapon, you have to use it.

Things that Pikemen would absolutely murder:

Any Elves, Goblins, Empire troops, Marauders, Beastmen, Skeletons, Ghouls, Zombies (lol), Skaven, Skinks, Orcs, and even cavalry.

Having played a few test games of 8th, the old logic of spearmen being weak units that don't kill anything doesn't really apply any more. It's a totally different dynamic now. In 7th you could charge them and kill enough to reduce their attacks to the point of being ineffective. Not so anymore.

Just yesterday I had a unit of 30 HE Spearmen 7 wide and 4 deep absolutely decimate my Chaos Warriors that were 3 deep and 6 wide. How you ask? Well, I took Great Weapons, and that no longer allows you the flexibility to protect your troops by also getting a shield. The HE hit me either 25 or 26 times, and caused 9 wounding hits, of which I failed 5. It was a totally average result for 8th edition. My 18 return attacks caused about 8 casualties back, again, a totally average result now.

In 7th ed, if I knew the HE were attacking first I'd at least have had the flexibility of taking HW+shield. But even then, the extra ranks of spears really make a difference. The bigger the amount of dice you roll, the more saving throws you are going to force someone to make. The laws of probability are very much alive and well, and can work for you in 8th.

I don't expect you to believe me, but you will soon after you've played some games. Spearmen in big blocks are now something to be feared. Pikes would be even worse.

Well, fair enough, they have lots of S3 attacks so they will kill anything that fears S3 attacks.

Still the game isn't going to change THAT much...we won't all be running full infantry forces. Someone recently started a thread that said, what will cavalry be good for. This is exactly it.

Anything with a 2+ or 1+ save can ride right in and take your 60 attacks. (30 hit, 10 wound, 1.67 dead knights, though they attack first so its less unless you have more than 60 models in then unit)

The above is why I don't think horde is great unless it has S5 really, S4 is ok in that it will kill 2+ save knights but the 1+ save ones are annoying still.

I think in a vacuum you want S5 on your horde (still maintain that GW wielders are the way to go)

Luckily magic can REALLY buff these horde units, imagine said DOW unit with WS10 I10 against weak enemies, or +1S +1T against most anyone.

Ld as S perhaps!?

They can do good things, on their own though I think S3 won't really work. A horde has NO maneuverability really, it will march forward, full speed and hit what the enemy has put in their way.

Ps.. in your example you have spearment hitting with 90% of their attacks and wounding slightly above average also, normally you get 5 wounds of which 2.5 are left unsaved. Variance will of course happen but saying the S3 spearmen are great because they killed TWICE as many enemy models as normal isn't the best case.

Normal situation is elves kill around 2.5 while warriors kill 10..... you got unlucky, it happens, I wouldn't change my game play based on that though.

The laws of probability you mentioned actually point to a very different result than the one you encountered.

But as I mentioned, imagine said ASF spears with a little spell buffing.... or enemy hexing would also work.

Yrrdead
21-06-2010, 12:40
The best units to run a "horde" wide are the ones with musicians.

Horde in most cases just seems like a poor idea. In the few cases where being 10 wide to net more attacks will actually tend to change the combat result then a reform would seem to be the smartest thing to do. Otherwise having a smaller frontage and more ranks is still the better way to go imo.

explorator
21-06-2010, 12:49
Saurus with spears would be powerful in 10 wide. Str 4 base is a huge bonus.

Yrrdead
21-06-2010, 13:15
Saurus with spears would be powerful in 10 wide. Str 4 base is a huge bonus.

Permit me to politely disagree.

Models w/ two attacks in general receive less benefit from supportive attacks (be they normal,spears,and/or horde) than single attack models.

To benefit from horde with saurus w/ spears you would need a minimum unit size of 40. That is a massive 250 mm wide point sink. If I were playing lizards I would rarely (if ever) reform my spear saurus into horde formation. There is almost no case where it would be advantageous to do so.

explorator
21-06-2010, 13:24
That seems sensible, thanks. I thought Saurus were a bit cheaper, but they actually pay 2 points per spear. I reckon the Horde rule, when employed will usually be used by discount troops with one attack then. Seems a nice boost for empire sprearmen (who attack in 4 ranks when in a Horde), or are they better off taking deep ranks for stubborn?

I am hearing about a free reform, which might allow larger units to choose if/when to Horde, or go with stubborn.

Vsurma
21-06-2010, 13:29
Saurus with spears would be powerful in 10 wide. Str 4 base is a huge bonus.

40 saurus = 50 ws3 s4 attacks at I1
30 marauders MOK = 40 ws4 S5 attacks at ASL

Saurus cost 12pts per model
Marauder cost 5.5pts per model

Saurus are no good without magical buffs. They might do ok, if you can add the beast +1S +1T buff, the LD as strength buff or the +1 to wound and AP buff.

Even then they are still expensive.

ColShaw
21-06-2010, 14:22
I could see Night Goblins with Spears and Nets being powerful, partially because they're very cheap. 4 ranks fighting, with a (usually) -1 to enemy S. Lots of S3 attacks on an enemy who will often have only S3-4.

Skyros
21-06-2010, 15:09
For a horde to be good, they need to be at least S4, and cheap enough to get lots of.

I'm going to be most worried about GW Marauders, and stormvermin.

GW Longbeards/hammerers are also dangerous, but about twice the price of a GW marauder.

Vsurma
21-06-2010, 15:18
I could see Night Goblins with Spears and Nets being powerful, partially because they're very cheap. 4 ranks fighting, with a (usually) -1 to enemy S. Lots of S3 attacks on an enemy who will often have only S3-4.

Your missing the point though.

A horde of goblins doesn't get 40 attacks. (well it does but that is beside the point)

A horde gets +1 rank attacking.

40 gobs=30 attacks
Horde 40 gobs (10 wide) get an extra rank of gobs attacking.

So an extra 10 attacks, a low ws and s in most cases.

By going 10 wide you lose your stubborn against a lot of enemies, what you gain is 10 s3 attacks, what those 10 attacks do is hit half the time and wound less than half, after saves you might get +1 kill and cr.

So you think its better to take +1 cr over stubborn?

Units with GWs trade stubborn for +5 CR, probably worth it, but for 1? I think not.

Draeven
21-06-2010, 16:28
though, the problem with this math is horde on horde is the only time you will get the full 10 of each rank attack. Against most 5 wide your looking at 7 models in each rank. so you have to take that in consideration.

Mudkip
21-06-2010, 16:35
Stormvermin, Greatswords, Skavenslaves with spears are all excellent choices.

N

Greatswords would be better off 5-wide actually, they don't do particularly well as a horde. They are too expensive to have the required numbers to survive long in a horde duel, they are reasonably killy in any event and they are stubborn regardless of ranks. They are a good unit for taking 20-25 of, but there's no need to take things out of hand.

The same logic applies to most other elite infantry (by this I mean models that cost 10 points or more per model). They lose the war of attrition against the cheaper hordes. For instance the vaunted Khorne Marauders can beat units of elite inf that cost over twice as much as themselves, assuming both sides fight to the last man. Otherwise they just aren't worth the huge investment in points, even a unit of just 30 elite infantry is often a crippling investment in a 2k army.

The difference with Marauders and Skaven etc is that you can a big block 40+ infantry and then decide whether to go 5 or 10 wide depending on circumstances, trading ranks for attacks. Elite inf generally always should be 5-wide or thereabouts.

Similar thread:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=261910

Vsurma
21-06-2010, 16:48
though, the problem with this math is horde on horde is the only time you will get the full 10 of each rank attack. Against most 5 wide your looking at 7 models in each rank. so you have to take that in consideration.

Indeed! in which case your only getting maybe 7 additional S3 attacks ooooh :)

Malorian
21-06-2010, 17:21
Well of course the best units for horde are cheap but hard hitting ones (marauders/dwarf warriors with great weapons/squig herd).

At the same time though, hordes of elite units will become almost unstoppable (unless gatewayed by tzeentch...).

Hordes of chaos trolls also have the added bonus of getting better as they go on, so big units of them will be nuts...

shortlegs
21-06-2010, 17:42
Been running a lot of math on whether it is worth it to horde up or not. With the assumption that it doesn't become cripplingly expensive to field large units of say 50, it is almost always better to go horde if you can.

With units that large, even in horde formation, you will only ever be behind by 1-2 CR from static CR compared to a non-horde unit, which by statistics is more than easily regained from having many more attacks. You will win combat against a non-horde unit every round, and while they may stick around due to stubborn, that's all they can do before they are ground away, because 1 on 1, a non-horde unit will never win combat against a horde unit (note that we're talking about similar large unit sizes here, where the horde unit will still have decent rank bonus and sufficient numbers to make use of the 3rd rank attacks).

An average 5-wide unit does 10 attacks. A horde unit does 21 attacks back. That's >100% increase, which against most regular core troops will easily net you a few kills. For units like khorne marauders, it becomes simply brutal in horde formation.

About the only time it is better to not go horde is if the terrain really screws you over. But unless your entire army is made up of nothing but horde units, that shouldn't be too much of a problem.

somefatkid
21-06-2010, 17:45
What about 6x3 units of ogre bulls w/ muso? 54 str4 armor piercing attacks. the 640 pt price tag might be well worth it.

shortlegs
21-06-2010, 17:52
Indeed! in which case your only getting maybe 7 additional S3 attacks ooooh :)

More like 11 additional attacks (2 ranks at 5 wide vs 3 ranks at 7 wide). May not seem like much, but these will net you some kills, and if your horde unit is deep enough to have 3 ranks of attacks, it also means you have at least 2 rank bonuses. Compared to a non-horde unit with full 3 rank bonus, you're only behind by 1 CR. I believe that on average 11 additional attacks will net you more than 1 kill to win you the combat.

Now this happens EVERY combat phase. You kill more than your opponent every phase, and win combat every round. Your opponent may stay due to stubborn. But even if he sticks around, he isn't going to win combat and will either lose the war of attrition or eventually fail a stubborn test.

Although another time you won't want to be in horde formation is if you meet an opposing unit that simply outclasses you. My orc boys will always be in horde against say empire troops, but against khorne marauders, I'll probably want to be really deep and hold the killer unit in place for as long as I can, since horde or not, there's no way they can win a 1 on 1 fight.

shortlegs
21-06-2010, 17:57
What about 6x3 units of ogre bulls w/ muso? 54 str4 armor piercing attacks. the 640 pt price tag might be well worth it.

I personally think to make full use of the horde rule, you need numbers ABOVE the required 3 attacking ranks, to absorb casualties especially if your initiative is low and you wont get to strike first.

With I2, the ogres will likely take some casualties before being able to swing back, and each member lost will reduce your attacks back.

IMO, ogres are simply not cheap enough to have additional bodies to buffer against early wounds, the lack of which will seriously hamper their combat effectiveness (especially considering the really hefty price tag).

Lord Inquisitor
21-06-2010, 18:06
I was going to say Ogre Bulls. Not only do they get 54 attacks, they also get Stomp attacks and if they can charge in, 6 S6 impact hits as well.

Definitely worth a giggle. Want more fun? 18 Ironguts - okay, 864 points before adding the command - but that's up to 54 S6 attacks plus stomp plus impacts and heavy armour. Even if you flank that unit they'll still be getting 9 S6 attacks back at you plus stomps.

Not sure exactly how effective this would be as it could be fed other horde units made stubborn and arrayed 10-ranks deep, and it'd be horrific cannon-fodder, but you'd surely think twice about engaging that mob of angry ogres!

CrystalSphere
21-06-2010, 19:46
The best units are those with high Strength attacks (as strength is still king in 8th edition), not too expensive, with only 1 attack, and if possible with small base size. So for example dwarf warriors with great weapons are looking quite good, as are marauders with great weapons, or empire greatswords, or grave guard with great weapons. Anything that can benefit from gaining many extra attacks of high strength (and with only 1 attack each model, so no attacks are lost) will benefit from the horde rule.

The other option are units that are very cheap and can make a horde for a low price, to put out many attacks at low strength (like goblins or skavens) but i am not too sure of exactly how good these units will be in horde formation. I am not sure if low strength attacks are worth all the hassle of going 10 wide and losing all those ranks, specially when your chances of killing things are so bad and you could just go narrow and be stubborn to hold the enemy in place.

kaintxu
21-06-2010, 20:38
Yea good point, its -1 WS, so it will effect models with WS 2,4 and 5.

Against ws4 enemies you will now hit on a 3+ rather than a 4+.
Against ws2 and 5 they have a harder time hitting you.

Doesn't seem to bad in that it helps against all but ws3, which you hit on a 3+ anyway.
Seems to me like it will help quit often, I don't think there are really any ws3 enemies that the marauders are really afraid of.

Well except saurus warriors but I reckon most will run HW/S and not really kill too many for the marauders to fear them.

Vsurna its only -1 to WS when hitting you, so when the warriors hit back they have their WS back to normal so on W4 or 5 does nothing, its only usefull against WS 3, which goes down to 2 thus they hit you on 5's and WS 6 which goes down to 5 so they hit you on 4's rather than 3's

Tokamak
21-06-2010, 20:57
I think I'm going for units of 60 orcs now.

Vsurma
21-06-2010, 22:16
I didn't see any change to the to hit table apart, ws2 vs ws4 should still hit on 4+.

You need a ws double + 1 before the enemy starts hitting you on a 5+... unless I missed some change to the table.

But yea, I guess Nurgle isn't all that. Khorne it is then.

Temakador
21-06-2010, 23:13
problem with dwarfs in horde, is that while marauders have the numbers to cope with going last while dwarfs do not for example you get 74 marauders with GW and with MOK for the price of 40 dwarfs with GW which means using my rounding up maths 15 dead dwarfs turn 1 and 11 dead marauders so as you can see dwarfs do not have the manpower or dwarfpower to win, so i fail to see how dwarfs are any good in horde formation

stonehorse
21-06-2010, 23:17
I haven't played the new edition yet so this is all speculation.

I'm looking at Dark Elf Spearmen with new interest, high Initiative, movement, and leadership for a very small price tag. Ok so they are only strength 3, but having hatred and access to Assassins helps tip the scale in their favour.

Also thinking that Men at Arms are going to be great, dirty cheap, and good selection of equipment. They can use the leadership of any nearby knights, and their banners are a sock on a stick.

Dwarf Warriors now scare me... I can't see the point in giving them shields any more seeing that the +1 armour has gone now for hand weapon & shield. Which leaves Great weapons a very viable option. Again for their stat line they are very cheap.

Daemonettes with a Herald are also going to be rather nasty, but also very expensive.

Godgolden
21-06-2010, 23:48
problem with dwarfs in horde, is that while marauders have the numbers to cope with going last while dwarfs do not for example you get 74 marauders with GW and with MOK for the price of 40 dwarfs with GW which means using my rounding up maths 15 dead dwarfs turn 1 and 11 dead marauders so as you can see dwarfs do not have the manpower or dwarfpower to win, so i fail to see how dwarfs are any good in horde formation

dwarfs have guns....

Rogzor87
22-06-2010, 05:24
Yes, Marauders are great the dice rolling math of averages proves it! I still think there are other units that will be amazing though. HE spearmen will most likely decimate things even though its str 3 the sheer number of attacks will be amazing. I also believe Stormvermin will be one of the top contenders WS4 Str4 I5 and a 5+save.

Vsurma
22-06-2010, 07:40
problem with dwarfs in horde, is that while marauders have the numbers to cope with going last while dwarfs do not for example you get 74 marauders with GW and with MOK for the price of 40 dwarfs with GW which means using my rounding up maths 15 dead dwarfs turn 1 and 11 dead marauders so as you can see dwarfs do not have the manpower or dwarfpower to win, so i fail to see how dwarfs are any good in horde formation

Your comparison is somewhat limited, its like when last edition everyone compared any and every combat unit vs chaos warriors or say against a DE hydra.

We know by now that Khorne GW marauders are the best horde unit around for sheer killing power, luckily said dwarf warriors are likely to meet other units in the game than just those MOK marauders.

Yes, dwarf GW horde warriors lose to that 1 unit.... out of 272...so?

I reckon the order of things is the best horde units are:
MOK marauders
Dwarf warriors
Great sword/storm vermin....

Nothing wrong with being number 2.

Dwarves are not good against the MOK warriors but ARE good against pretty much everything else.

Not that dwarves have too much trouble against the MOK ones, a few stone thrower shots in the unit (hard to miss) and the unit loses half its size.

Rogzor87
22-06-2010, 08:07
go go skaven slaves /w spears! at 2.5 points!!! and if they happen to lose a LD test early with how many ranks they can have that explosion of d3wounds would be immense!

Isabel
22-06-2010, 08:26
Explain, I just had a look and I don't see what I am missing.

I think what he means here is MoN only works one way. A warrior with MoN striking an opponent = the opponent has -1WS. When that same oppenent strikes back, he returns to his original weapon skill, he does not suffer the -1. It only works one way.

DarkTyrany22
22-06-2010, 08:55
I'm looking at Dark Elf Spearmen with new interest, high Initiative, movement, and leadership for a very small price tag. Ok so they are only strength 3, but having hatred and access to Assassins helps tip the scale in their favour.

Assassins are definitely nice, but enemies being able to fight in two ranks weakens them a little bit I think. Any time your Assassin can take hits there is a possibility it'll die since they're so fragile. I'll probably be using mine more for character squishing than buzz-sawing from now on...

Mudkip
22-06-2010, 09:29
Yes, dwarf GW horde warriors lose to that 1 unit.... out of 272...so?

I reckon the order of things is the best horde units are:
MOK marauders
Dwarf warriors
Great sword/storm vermin....

Nothing wrong with being number 2.

Dwarves are not good against the MOK warriors but ARE good against pretty much everything else.

When you take cost into account Dwarf Warrior hordes don't really match up to the competition. Neither do Greatswords who are much better off running 5-wide than 10-wide. A lot of expensive infantry would obviously be quite powerful in horde formation, the problem is that they are really expensive. A unit of 40 Dwarf Warriors with great weapons and command costs 425 points. The unit of 50 Marauders only costs 300, 50 Halberdiers or Men at Arms only 270, 100 skaven slaves 250 points etc.

The Dwarf warriors cannot win a point-for-point duel against most hordes, neither can most elite infantry, the extra numbers of cheaper troops grind them down. Also, by taking these horde unit of elite infantry in armies that are already generally expensive (Dwarves, High/Dark Elves etc) you end up with less ability to support them properly. A Skaven or Orc army can knock out a horde unit or two and still have plenty of points left for a real army. More elite armies end up spending a quarter of their points allowance on one strategically dubious unit at 2k.

Furthermore, most elite units hardly need to use the horde rule to win combats. Many elite infantry actually perform better in consecutive rounds of combat by fighting 5-wide against hordes rather than 10-wide. They are still winning the combat but they are taking less losses, last longer and have more ranks.

Generally nothing that costs 10 points or more is really worth going horde in a 2k game. The horde rule is best utilized by... hordes.

CrystalSphere
22-06-2010, 12:00
When you take cost into account Dwarf Warrior hordes don't really match up to the competition. Neither do Greatswords who are much better off running 5-wide than 10-wide. A lot of expensive infantry would obviously be quite powerful in horde formation, the problem is that they are really expensive. A unit of 40 Dwarf Warriors with great weapons and command costs 425 points. The unit of 50 Marauders only costs 300, 50 Halberdiers or Men at Arms only 270, 100 skaven slaves 250 points etc.

The Dwarf warriors cannot win a point-for-point duel against most hordes, neither can most elite infantry, the extra numbers of cheaper troops grind them down. Also, by taking these horde unit of elite infantry in armies that are already generally expensive (Dwarves, High/Dark Elves etc) you end up with less ability to support them properly. A Skaven or Orc army can knock out a horde unit or two and still have plenty of points left for a real army. More elite armies end up spending a quarter of their points allowance on one strategically dubious unit at 2k.

Furthermore, most elite units hardly need to use the horde rule to win combats. Many elite infantry actually perform better in consecutive rounds of combat by fighting 5-wide against hordes rather than 10-wide. They are still winning the combat but they are taking less losses, last longer and have more ranks.

Generally nothing that costs 10 points or more is really worth going horde in a 2k game. The horde rule is best utilized by... hordes.

I have to disagree. It is true that these horde units can get very expensive, the only exception are dirt cheap units like marauders or below. At aprox. 8 points the formation start getting very expensive, but what you didnīt noted is that a horde of dwarf warriors can get 27-30 attacks at WS4 S5. Now tell me of other unit in the game that can put out a similar number of attacks, and what price they have.

What i mean is that these horde units made of "expensive" troops are something alien into the 7th edition mentality. The closest thing i can compare it to would be a deathstar, imagine that you horde of dwarfs is a "dwarfstar", you get a lot of high strength attacks and you pay a lot of points for it. If you add some character inside then the unit could be called a mini deathstar of itīs own.

I think all those units mentioned are viable, and that the ones that are not are the expensive ones with low strength attacks. The cheap ones (goblin, skaven) with low strength attacks still have some use. But i could argue that 250 points of clan rats (50 clanrats with spears and shields) would be better spent in 45 clanrats with shields in 5 wide 9 deep to be steadfast and hold the enemy in place by sheer numbers. Then call the heavy hitters (high strength troops) to finish the job, much like it was done in 7th edition. So to be clear, my doubts are that the price of clanrat-like horde units is worth the number and quality (low strength) of attacks you get.

Mudkip
22-06-2010, 12:14
but what you didnīt noted is that a horde of dwarf warriors can get 27-30 attacks at WS4 S5. Now tell me of other unit in the game that can put out a similar number of attacks, and what price they have.

And despite that, they lose point-for-point vs Skavenslaves or Stormvermin, Goblins, Orc Boyz, Marauders etc. It's not that Dwarfs are bad, it's that they are bad at being a points efficient horde unit. Getting 30 str5 attacks is not special for a horde! Dwarf warirors are not particularly tough as a horde in relative points terms!

Aside from that though it's about the points cost rather than their relative prowess. I just doubt well be seeing 400 point horde units very often in 2k games. They aren't terrible, but they rely on a large investment to get them going and that's what will make them uncommon.

melk
22-06-2010, 14:15
I have to disagree. It is true that these horde units can get very expensive, the only exception are dirt cheap units like marauders or below. At aprox. 8 points the formation start getting very expensive, but what you didnīt noted is that a horde of dwarf warriors can get 27-30 attacks at WS4 S5. Now tell me of other unit in the game that can put out a similar number of attacks, and what price they have.


50 Marauders with Great Weapon and mark of Khorne in 10x5 formation get 40 attacks at WS4, S5 but ASL.
But before we start loose attacks you need to kill 20 marauders.
And it's less then 300 points.

stonehorse
22-06-2010, 15:13
Trouble with Hordes is that you may have a unit that is 10 wide, but the enemy may not, so you will get less attacks as you can't use your full frontal size. Even more so for models on a big base.

Still I bet all those 10 wide units look great.

shortlegs
22-06-2010, 15:27
But the number of attacks you do get even against a non-horde unit is quite a bit more than what the non-horde unit gets against you.

Worst case scenario: 25mm infantry in horde vs 20mm infantry in non-horde. 25mm guys get 18 attacks while the 20mm ones get 10, quite significantly better. The full extra rank of attacks helps quite a bit, and it gets better the smaller your base size or the harder hitting your own troops are.

PurchasedPig
22-06-2010, 15:41
To be honest I have to agree with both sides of the discussion to varying degrees. I think people are also thinking too much taht the horde units have to be full. As an example I think Greatswords are excellent in a 10x3 formation as they will always be stubborn and they will always be able to fight in all 3 ranks. It makes no difference if the entire unit is slaughtered to a man so it comes down to maximising damage potential whilst they still live.

The other 'best' choice for a horde in my opinion are the EXTREMELY cheap ones. I don't mean 6pts, I mean max 3pts here - Night Goblin Archers are the best along with Slaves and Gnoblars. The reason for this is very simple. 5 by 'x' amount is generally better for such cheap troops as they are not going to cause damage anyway but when you get THAT cheap it is actually very affordable for a 10x10 unit.

On these grounds my favourite horde is 100 Night Goblin Archers.
Get 60 shots a turn with Volley Fire, Stand and Shoot and then fight in 3 ranks in combat for 300pts. Throw in a couple of heroes because they're VERY cheap and laugh when you take 6 such units at 2000pts.

-PurchasedPig-

shortlegs
22-06-2010, 15:49
For those cheap units, I will still only go horde against non-horde opponents that I outnumber such that I still get steadfast despite being in horde.

Against non-horde units with more ranks, while I get more attacks, those attacks aren't the greatest, and if I fluff my rolls and somehow lose, I don't get steadfast.

Against horde units, they will almost always fight better than me. So going horde only
a. allows them better attacks than it allows me
b. reduces my rank such that I may lose steadfast more quickly

Malorian
22-06-2010, 16:42
For those cheap units, I will still only go horde against non-horde opponents that I outnumber such that I still get steadfast despite being in horde.

Against non-horde units with more ranks, while I get more attacks, those attacks aren't the greatest, and if I fluff my rolls and somehow lose, I don't get steadfast.

Against horde units, they will almost always fight better than me. So going horde only
a. allows them better attacks than it allows me
b. reduces my rank such that I may lose steadfast more quickly

Ah yes, the battle of the hordes, largest takes all as only the one with the most ranks will be steadfast...

I'm very interested to see where this arms-race takes us :)

Vsurma
22-06-2010, 17:41
When you take cost into account Dwarf Warrior hordes don't really match up to the competition. Neither do Greatswords who are much better off running 5-wide than 10-wide. A lot of expensive infantry would obviously be quite powerful in horde formation, the problem is that they are really expensive. A unit of 40 Dwarf Warriors with great weapons and command costs 425 points. The unit of 50 Marauders only costs 300, 50 Halberdiers or Men at Arms only 270, 100 skaven slaves 250 points etc.

The Dwarf warriors cannot win a point-for-point duel against most hordes, neither can most elite infantry, the extra numbers of cheaper troops grind them down. Also, by taking these horde unit of elite infantry in armies that are already generally expensive (Dwarves, High/Dark Elves etc) you end up with less ability to support them properly. A Skaven or Orc army can knock out a horde unit or two and still have plenty of points left for a real army. More elite armies end up spending a quarter of their points allowance on one strategically dubious unit at 2k.

Furthermore, most elite units hardly need to use the horde rule to win combats. Many elite infantry actually perform better in consecutive rounds of combat by fighting 5-wide against hordes rather than 10-wide. They are still winning the combat but they are taking less losses, last longer and have more ranks.

Generally nothing that costs 10 points or more is really worth going horde in a 2k game. The horde rule is best utilized by... hordes.

Have you actually run the numbers or are you just guessing? We have crunched them for marauders quite a bit and few things beat them, which is not surprising with their fairly high ws,cheap cost and high strength with GWs. Its the ideal horde unit.

Dwarves pay a fair bit more for a little armour and an additional toughnes, they also have a lot more ld (9 vs 7) which matters not at all when the general is both alive and within range but matters a great deal when some lore of death hero snipes the enemy general.

I do agree with you that anything over 10pts is an unlikely horde candidate.

Marauders and dwarves are really the only 2 I like thus far.

Hordes won't always get full attacks, if the enemy only charges them with 1 unit, but they will generally be getting 2 more models to attack from each rank, so 7 vs 5.

Even elite infantry with 2 attacks will be getting only 15 attacks with 5 wide, whilst the horde gets 7*1 (2 for front rank for marauders) so 21-28.

Both dwarves and the marauders hit with ws4 and S5 so that is wicked good.
Which hordes do Dwarves lose out to point for point?

With T4 I would be surprised to find any (or at least very many) S3 hordes that beat them (maybe some 2pt per model ones)

But it doesn't really matter what will theoretically beat something, only if your likely to actually face said thing in battle. Which is why I don't think its the end of the world for dwarves to lose to marauders, since not everyone plays WOC.

Vsurma
22-06-2010, 17:48
50 Marauders with Great Weapon and mark of Khorne in 10x5 formation get 40 attacks at WS4, S5 but ASL.
But before we start loose attacks you need to kill 20 marauders.
And it's less then 300 points.

Can we try to stop comparing to the thing that is the "best" at something and saying everything else is bad. It doesn't matter! if your not playing against said marauders it does not matter at all!

Even when playing against them your hardly screwed....how many marauders dies from a S10/5 stone thrower that re-rolls scatter?

By this mentality you cannot use anything, no point running a dragon that isn't the star dragon, no point running a lv4 mage unless its a slann etc...

Good stuff people, we will be masters of this game when it comes out :)


..... or we will think so and get our asses kicked....fun either way

Skyros
22-06-2010, 18:01
I reckon the order of things is the best horde units are:
MOK marauders
Dwarf warriors
Great sword/storm vermin....

Marauders and stormvermin will be great.

I don't see great weapon dwarf warriors or greatswords doing hordes, they are like twice as expensive as the other guys.

If you're going to be a horde you have to be cheap. You can't sink 500 points into your horde.

Mudkip
22-06-2010, 18:27
Have you actually run the numbers or are you just guessing?

Hah, you're asking me that? I've spent hours crunching the numbers.
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=261910


Can we try to stop comparing to the thing that is the "best" at something and saying everything else is bad. It doesn't matter! if your not playing against said marauders it does not matter at all!


The main point is that units like the Marauders cost much less than unit like dwarves. 50 Marauders are "wicked good" at 300 points, 40 Dwarves less so at over 400. Without considering cost efficieny, obviously all horde units of expensive infantry are powerful.

But whatever, I'm sure you'll endlessly argue over this until nobody can be bothered posting anymore.

Malorian
22-06-2010, 18:29
If you're going to be a horde you have to be cheap. You can't sink 500 points into your horde.

Not true.

Thanks to steadfast and no victory points for half dead units these super hordes can be the perfect victory point denial.

In fact the bigger the better.

Mudkip
22-06-2010, 18:32
How many ranks are they going to have though? For 500 points, you could get 4-5 ranks of elite infantry or at least twice that much in cheaper infantry. I don't see how you've arrived at the conclusion that the Steadfast rule helps out horde dwarves here.

Also there are certain spells that can devastate hordes, if these are cast on a 300 point unit then that sucks, but if they are cast on a 600 point unit then it's probably GG. Plowing points into hordes is not necessarily a reliable strategy, finding units that can be used as hordes for a reasonable price is not too risky on the other hand.

Vsurma
22-06-2010, 18:44
Yea, I wouldn't expect the horde unit to get stubborn, unless they are 2-3pt gnobblars/gobbos etc. They want to be winning combat really.

It's too easy for the opponent to do a combo charge with a unit that has more ranks to negate the steadfast.

Horde units sure won't like the fire cage spell...

Lord Inquisitor
22-06-2010, 19:04
Yea, I wouldn't expect the horde unit to get stubborn, unless they are 2-3pt gnobblars/gobbos etc. They want to be winning combat really.

It's too easy for the opponent to do a combo charge with a unit that has more ranks to negate the steadfast.
Steadfast isn't negated by flanking.

I think marauders are really going to be the kings of hordes, but Grave Guard are a big contender for an "elite" horde.

40 grave guard, with full command, 510 points plus 40 if you want great weapons and the banner of barrows or the standard of strigos is probably mandatory. Expensive, at around 600 points, but a unit with T4 heavy armour, 31 S6 attacks with hatred or +1 to hit, and can be resurrected.

Vsurma
22-06-2010, 19:42
Hmm, the resurrection ability might just make them worthwhile.

The reason most horde units don't get stubborn is their cost.

7 ranks of slaves, gnobblars, gobs etc costs about 140pts, your horde won't have 7 ranks, if the enemy does want to engage said horde, they are likely to add such a unit to the combat to negate your stubborn.

It seems a tad sad if marauders are the only unit we can come up with to benefit from the new horde rule.

Anyone know if skaven slaves get to add their ranks as leadership after the generals ld? otherwise with ld7 they are not going to hold for too many turns even with a bsb nearby.

Malorian
22-06-2010, 19:54
Anyone know if skaven slaves get to add their ranks as leadership after the generals ld? otherwise with ld7 they are not going to hold for too many turns even with a bsb nearby.

I'd assume so.

Once again we'll have to wait for the FAQ.

Emeraldw
22-06-2010, 19:58
I have been thinking Marauders with Great weapons and Mark Of Khorne would be brutal. Perhaps not in horde but in general. They aren't terribly expensive but 15 or so Str 5, WS4 attacks for that cheap isn't something to ignore.

Skyros
22-06-2010, 20:18
Not true.

Thanks to steadfast and no victory points for half dead units these super hordes can be the perfect victory point denial.


Hordes are generally not going to be able to take advantage of steadfast, especially not hordes comprised of models who cost 10, 11, 12 points.

It just takes one unit with more ranks than you and there goes your stubborn.

Artinam
22-06-2010, 20:21
Well I guess it all depends how fast one is going to kill the other. A horde of Slavers might costs next to nothing but a smaller but more elite Horde is going to cut trough them like a hot knife trough butter. Yes they may hold for another turn because of Stubborn but eventually they will loose their ranks.

Malorian
22-06-2010, 20:21
Hordes are generally not going to be able to take advantage of steadfast, especially not hordes comprised of models who cost 10, 11, 12 points.

It just takes one unit with more ranks than you and there goes your stubborn.

First of all against cheaper units that can get more ranks the elite horde should win pretty much every time so it doesn't matter.

Secondly the best way to counter any chance of that is... be bigger yourself!!!


Like I've said many times, it doesn't matter howmany points you crap into one of these Hordestars because it's a massive point denial from your opponent.

Take a couple of these super units, march across the board, and beat up what ever you touch. You will get points for whatever you kill and your opponent will get nothing.


Flanking was a key part in 7th to stop this tactic from working, and with that gone super units will be unstoppable (unless you have your own super unit and then it's just a pillow fight in the middle of the board).

Your Mum Rang
22-06-2010, 20:24
I'll chip in with the idea of 30 Repeater Crossbowmen as making solid use of the Horde rule. 40 Shots and 30 attacks in CC are pretty decent.

Using them as an anvil which can shoot (so the enemy must charge them to silence the shooting) and will almost certainly stick around for one round so that your Chariots and Hydrae can hit the flanks.

By no means the BEST but a very solid and useful unit as well as a decent counter to those Marauder Hordes.

ColShaw
22-06-2010, 20:30
I think, oddly, Bretonnian Bowmen might be decent for their cost.

Consider:
A unit of 40 costs just 240 points, 260 with full command (and hey, why not). It gets 30 longbow shots, and negates charge bonus to its front (does that mean no +1CR? Errata, please!) Dirt cheap, and can kick out a surprising lot of firepower on its frontage.

SeaSwift
22-06-2010, 20:33
Actually, I doubt that Repeater Crossbowmen will thrive, for a few reasons. Firstly, they will have to be 10 wide, meaning that getting all those shots in would be difficult. Secondly, they would only have S3/WS4 (with Hatred), which would be okay, except they have only 1, and only T3, Armour Save 5+

They would just get torn apart.

Vsurma
22-06-2010, 20:37
Hordes are generally not going to be able to take advantage of steadfast, especially not hordes comprised of models who cost 10, 11, 12 points.

It just takes one unit with more ranks than you and there goes your stubborn.

Which is why they want to win combat, which is why they want GWs.

Though I heard orks work as well, just not against as many targets, they won't like 2+ or 1+ save targets like knights, GW wielders won't mind so much. Luckily infantry no longer has 2+ saves but characters and cavalry are still around.

theweck
22-06-2010, 20:37
Im terrified of huge squads of Bret Longbows. While the Strength may not necessarly be the highest, the range is immense, the volley fire means that a good number of them are getting to fire, and the horde rules will help mitigate their awfulness in close combat, particularly after being volleyed to death by some hardcore longbowing. I haven't had the opportunity to pour over the bret book to figure out what the ideal build would be, but i am certain that these longbows are going to be a force of nature.


Edit: Thrice Ninja'd

Malorian
22-06-2010, 20:39
Another thing to remember about bret archers is while you are locked in with them i the front a unit of bret knights are aiming at your flank...

Temakador
22-06-2010, 22:44
point for point MoK + GW mararuders are the king by far, there WS 4 str 5 and 2 attacks on the front rank for 5 pts! its crazy, so yer every other unit is gonna be massacured by them point for point but what other units benifited from the horde rule, math wise its the unit that gains more from the extra attacks than it loses from the CR due to rank bonus so this meanes high S will be the name of the game as well as multiple attacks

Rogzor87
22-06-2010, 23:08
I'm still saying Skaven Slaves /w spears

decker_cky
23-06-2010, 00:06
I think nurgle is a bit better personally for the defence, but that's a bit moot overall. Marauders are good because they're cheap and killy. They do have a weakness in having a ridiculously large footprint, and likely not having steadfast. It'll be tough to protect their flanks too well, and when hit there, they stand a good chance of crumbling.

20 mm units have the same basic weakness, only with a 20% smaller footprint.

And slaves are horrible hordes. Units of 50 slaves will be awesome, just run their ranks 5 wide. :D

Rogzor87
23-06-2010, 00:33
why would slave be horrible hordes? I think they would make amazing ones. not to mention you can shoot into whatever your holding up for the x-turns for 300pnts you can get 120 slaves. even against a marauder horde with MoK and GW they will last 5+ turns

People need to stop thinking of Hordes as just killing units. They are also amazing stalling units. That can widdle down whatever they get stuck fighting.

shortlegs
23-06-2010, 01:59
Provided that they are cheap enough to retain steadfast for multiple turns despite high casualties and being in horde formation. In this respect probably only 2-3 points/model units can pull it off.

That's why for every other unit that can go horde, we need to focus on damage dealing because
- that's why we went horde in the first place, to have more attacks. So the better quality your attacks are the better.
- we won't have the numbers necessary to go both horde and deep to remain steadfast.