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View Full Version : New lores. Stupid powerful or spice of life?



Razhem
20-06-2010, 10:40
Pretty much what the question brings. When I saw the new magic rules, they seemed pretty nice, though they don't seem to scale at bigger games, but not a lot of people play more then 2000-3000 point games, so it shouldn't be too much of a tragedy. With the current 7th edition lores, all spells seem pretty easy to cast with the new rules, but except for a couple of exceptions, not overly destructive and the opponent has a pretty nice chance of dispelling them. But now we see the new lores, and most of them have a nuke of the apocolypse that pretty much destroys a unit right there or debuffs and buffs that make a mockery of the unit.

Now the question, is the supreme overboosting of the lores a good thing or a bad thing? To me it seems like it will be a source of frustration, in old days, you needed 3 wizards in a magic phase to cause chaos and by god you did, but he at least had to blow those points on spellcasters to create all that ruckus. Now, a single high level wizard is more than capable of causing the wanton destruction 2-3 spells caused last edition with a single spell. A unit of Chaos warriors who have had their strength debuffed by 3 isn't going to do much, no matter what and a unit rolling damage with their leadership instead of strength,will destroy them, no matter what.

Kayosiv
20-06-2010, 10:56
I hate it personally.

I wanted the opposite to happen to magic in regards to its risk vs reward factor. Miscasts are so devastating at this point that it is looking like a reasonable tactic to fill your army with a few cheap level 1 wizards, charge them solo at the enemy at full speed, and throw 6 dice at a spell in at attempt to miscast, using them like living bombs on the enemy.

Something I personally never wanted to hear is "yes, I rolled a 5, your entire unit (and my 65 point wizard, I guess) is hit by a strength 10 hit and wiped off the board. Oh yeah, and my spell hits you too, you can't stop it." The new miscast table makes the orcs and goblins miscast table look tame, at least mostly all that one did is kill the wizard.

It makes me want to ignore magic, or at least never invest in magic that I have to roll more than 1 dice to cast.

Magic in 6th and 7th edition certainly had its problems, and while 8th edition has fixed them, it has created entire new ones. Why can't multiple wizards know the same spell? I can see the balance reason, but the fluff reasons evade me completely. Why the need to increase the power of magic SO drastically and the negatives of miscasting SO drastically? Magic heavy armies became obsolete as soon as power dice were capped and bound items needed to be rolled to be successful. It just seems like double overkill.

Everything in 8th is more killy. Units got 100% or more combat effectiveness in many cases, and nothing has anymore survivability, in a few cases, things have less. Quick example, eye of the gods in the warriors of chaos book could take you to a 0+ armor save, but now it is capped a 1+. Some people might like this extra "speed" this is going to offer the game, but I don't.

Here is what I feel about the magic phase and currently 8th edition before I see more of it in a nutshell. What is the difference between weak skinks and super tough saurus, weak zombies and tough wights, weak gnoblars and tough ogres? The answer is absolutely nothing, when they get hit by a strength 6 spell. When the power scales too far past survivability, it makes the difference between tough/armored troops pointless. I prefer when magic attacks were strength 4 on average and when buffs and debuffs were relatively minor.

dragonet111
20-06-2010, 11:04
With 8ed I have the feeling that every phase of the game has became more bloody. Shoot and attack on several ranks, canon more precise and powerful, ......... that magic became more powerful is only natural. You are now limited to 12 power dice, with some luck/stuff you can have 15 dice (in 2000/3000pts with a normal list not a uber-magic list:D). You can spend up to 6 dice on a spell, half of your pool with great risk of blowing yourself in the process. So yes magic is powerful but I don't think it is stupid powerful. Can you blow yourself and half of the unit with you with a misfire? no you can't:D

Razhem
20-06-2010, 11:32
Well Kayosiv, to be fair, with the old lores, you would almost never roll in the miscast table. At difficulty 12-13 being the norm of highest to cast, you don't need to roll more than 3 dice to get them trough and lores that cap at 10 just need 2 dice. On the other hand, with the new lores it will be necesary to roll a lot of dice and risk it a lot more, but seeing how powerful the effects are, I frankly don't see how it wouldn't be worth it (of course, your wizard better have left the unit when he tries this one out).

Nocculum
20-06-2010, 12:10
Magic is now more representative of the fluff, background and tales told in the annuls of Warhammer history.

Battlefields full of crackling magic, massive infantry, arrows raining through the sky, explosions ripping apart the fabric of the universe.

:D

Lordsaradain
20-06-2010, 13:29
I like the new way of generating PD/DD, but the new spells are WAY too powerful imo.

Ultimate Life Form
20-06-2010, 13:31
I've wanted this for the longest time; finally my Slann, the mightiest spellcaster in the universe, is no longer stuck with minor cantrips while Daemons and Vampires rain doom and destruction on their enemies.

Screaming Manti
20-06-2010, 13:59
The spells do look a little powerful but i'll reserve judgement till ive played a few games. Plus they are the main reason for redoing my high elves.

zak
20-06-2010, 14:34
I like the new rules. The risks now equals the rewards. If you cast a big spell with lots of dice then you are likely to cause lots of damage, but equally, you are likely to either overload and kill yourself and many of your mates. We no longer have the magical arms race anymore and I for one am a happy little gamer!

Running Kid
20-06-2010, 15:50
I like the new magic system. The best part of the new magic has to be that all the lores are interesting, and I have yet to see a worthless spell. On top of that you no longer have to go big or go home.Now it will be possibly to get by with a single level 4 wizard and still be terribly destructive. Also as a HE player I'm going to need something to take down cheap horde units.

WarmbloodedLizard
20-06-2010, 15:54
I hate it personally.

I wanted the opposite to happen to magic in regards to its risk vs reward factor.
[...]
The new miscast table makes the orcs and goblins miscast table look tame, at least mostly all that one did is kill the wizard.
[...]
Why can't multiple wizards know the same spell?
[...]
Why the need to increase the power of magic SO drastically and the negatives of miscasting SO drastically?
[...]
I prefer when magic attacks were strength 4 on average and when buffs and debuffs were relatively minor.

I could not agree with you more.

the new magic system caters to anyone that is not a gamer. it caters to 12 year old kids. to people who only want do see things blow up and die. to fluff guys that don't care about nuanced strategy that much.

I don't care about action or fluff AT ALL, magic should be a strategic element, not some randomized bust or boom crap. Fluff destroys gameplay if it is implemented too literally.

many of the good spells of 7th ed were just scrapped.

(mind you, I don't dislike the way dice are produced and how spells are cast. but everything from capped amount of PD/DD to the uberspells and miscast table just make the whole thing an uncontrollable goo of randomness without any strategic elements.)

ghostline
20-06-2010, 16:01
I think the mage suicide bomb thing may end up being a problem.

7 Warlock engineers. Warlock engineer skitterleaps a mage into the enemy each turn, then warlock engineer tries to go kablooey. Or depending on if Orc's and Goblins still use there own miscast table.. Magic Mushroom Dice for a mushroom cloud.


Other then that I like how they are. Magic is very powerful but comes with great risk, a sensible opponent will have 1 or 2 mages in the army, and it will no longer be an "all or nothing" deal in tournaments.

Nighthawke
20-06-2010, 16:01
The new miscast table makes the orcs and goblins miscast table look tame, at least mostly all that one did is kill the wizard.
im sorry but you just saying that just seems like you have no idea what your talking about.thw worst our tale does is kill the wizard? our miscast table makes every friend unit take damage, i really have no idea why people are moaning over your still not to bad miscast table.
i do really like the new spells they are easyish to cast and do really cool stuff but at the sae time its got huge risks and easy to dispel :)

WarmbloodedLizard
20-06-2010, 16:14
im sorry but you just saying that just seems like you have no idea what your talking about.

likewise.

I'd take the O&G miscast table over the 8th ed one anytime.

Nocculum
20-06-2010, 16:25
Skitterleaping Warlock engineers into the enemy ranks then causing them to self destruct?

That sounds like a strategy to me.

Nighthawke
20-06-2010, 16:28
likewise.

I'd take the O&G miscast table over the 8th ed one anytime.

i think you miss understand me,i mean id rather have the new 8th eddition rather then my OnG one beccause the new one still causes a lot les dmage, especially with the new allies thing.

Korraz
20-06-2010, 16:33
A very skavenlike strategy, if you convert a nice model for it (A Warpstone-Bomb?)

As for other Wizards suicide-bombing...yeah, cause a single wizard will certainly make it there, charge the unit (for maximum contact) miscast and then roll the right result.
Let's see...


2-4: Strength 10 large template over the wizard. Then on a 1-2 the wizard is removed from play, 3+ you lose D6 power dice.
5-6: Strength 10 small template over the wizard. Lose D6 power dice
7: Lose D6 power dice, Strength 10 hit on everyone in base contact with the wizard (NOT the wizard)
8-9: Strength 6 hit on every caster on your side, lose D6 power dice
10-12: Wizard loses D3 levels & random spells for each of them.


2-6, might hit a few guys. Not bad.
7 won't do anything.
8-9: holy crap, I just suicide bombed my own wizards!
10-12: Now that was scary. Or not.
Yes, certainly very effective. I'm SO going to sacrifice my complete , face melting magic face for that!

How in the stinking, green, plague ridden hell of Nurgle is THIS worse than O&G?


As for the unique spells...Wizards are not very common. There are the basic spells that most wizards know. But learning the more advanced stuff...

Ultimate Life Form
20-06-2010, 16:35
the new magic system caters to anyone that is not a gamer. it caters to 12 year old kids.

So 12 year old kids aren't gamers? :confused:

Yes, Magic adds randomness to the game. Yes, that is its purpose. And if you think about it it has always been that way. If you want a game full of strategy and yawn, go play chess.

And I don't shed a tear over your 'good' spells from 7th that I'm happy to see go. I'm dancing on the table because of the revised Lore of Heavens. Gone are the days where 50% of the spells were entirely useless for my Lizardmen which made taking a Skink Priest an expensive gamble at least. I will not miss my mandatory scroll caddy.

Stronginthearm
20-06-2010, 16:48
I still havent formed an opinion about magic strength, although im leaning towards too crazy strong right now, but I do wish there was a way to scale up for larger games

Nocculum
20-06-2010, 16:54
Conveniently for Wood Elves, the chance of a Spellsinger being anywhere near another unit is very slim :D

You Empire players and death star lovers, on the other hand? :D

Kayosiv
20-06-2010, 16:55
our miscast table makes every friend unit take damage, i really have no idea why people are moaning over your still not to bad miscast table.


Oh yeah, strength 3 hits with all saves allowed, ouch.

O&G miscast table has a pretty high chance to kill the wizard and stuff he's adjacent to.

New universal miscast table has a pretty high chacne to kill the wizard and anything even remotely close to him. Wizards will need to command a 5" bubble of "miscast respect" distance from the rest of their army if they plan on throwing more than 1-2 dice at spells.

WarmbloodedLizard
20-06-2010, 22:12
So 12 year old kids aren't gamers? :confused:

I think you know what I mean. gamers are people who play the game mainly because of its gameplay and don't care too much about fluff or the hobby aspect. they want a more or less controllable environment so that strategy and tactics play a big role.



Yes, Magic adds randomness to the game. Yes, that is its purpose. And if you think about it it has always been that way. If you want a game full of strategy and yawn, go play chess.

I don't say that some randomness is bad. but when a whole phase is so random that you have little control over what happens, the point has been reached where randomness play too big a role.



And I don't shed a tear over your 'good' spells from 7th that I'm happy to see go. I'm dancing on the table because of the revised Lore of Heavens. Gone are the days where 50% of the spells were entirely useless for my Lizardmen which made taking a Skink Priest an expensive gamble at least. I will not miss my mandatory scroll caddy.

I play lizardmen and, of course, agree with you to a certain point: 7th ed heavens wasn't that great. however, the lores could have been slightly revamped, so that every spell has a reason to be there. (I would also have been in favor of being able to choose your spells. if all spells were of about equal relative strength, that wouldn't have been a problem and would have opened up a lot more tactical possibilities)

Free Spirit
20-06-2010, 22:40
I feel that the magic in the WFB world is really well presented with the 8th ed magic rules and lores. The fluff used to present magic like a force of nature, wich didn't always translate well in the gameplay where you could really rely on your magic users. With 8th ed. however... magic is extremely potent, but also extremely dangerous!

Yes, wizards and sorcerers are amonst the most powerful characters, but the dangers are so great at the same time. You can turn the tide of battle with the spells, but if you roll a miscast (and you will), your sorcerer suffers alot, with a good possibility of killing him (or her) outright. Again, its very powerfull, but it's also very dangerous. I like that idea of magic, but that's just humble opinion.

Couple that with the fact that people are probably going to run less magic users. I will use 1, and that's if i have the points to spare after my combat lord or hero. He's like that single insane advisor of Nurgle at the side of my big armoured warlord!

Volker the Mad Fiddler
20-06-2010, 22:43
I think you know what I mean. gamers are people who play the game mainly because of its gameplay and don't care too much about fluff or the hobby aspect. they want a more or less controllable environment so that strategy and tactics play a big role.


Since I saw you make the same argument in another topic [at least I think it was you are the responses were incredibly similar], I will answer here what I have been thinking. Your basic argument boils down to something done for 2/3rds of the players [fluff lovers and hobbyists] is bad because you as the representative of the other 1/3rd think it takes away from the aspect you enjoy [whether it actually does or not]. Sorry, but I have to disagree. In fact, I would even argue that this makes tactics [there is no real strategy in Warhammer other than list building as strategy describes whole war efforts- supply lines, where to fight, over what, etc.] even a bigger part of the game as one now has to be more flexible and able to react.
It depends on what you think of as tactics [since a large part of actual tactics are already negated merely by the full view of the battlefield players have]. Randomness makes the game more unpredictable but isn't dealing with the unexpected precisely what good tacticians are able to do?

With all that said though, I actually prefer lower magic settings and the power of the spells does worry me a bit, but we shall see.

Gork or Possibly Mork
20-06-2010, 22:44
Well I think those uber spells are offset by a few things.

1. The really powerful spells are generally expensive to cast which means more dice need to be thrown and also means greater chance to get thier own head blown off. So even if they manage to cast it, it comes with the risk of blowing themselves up. No to mention killing the rest of thier magic phase if they don't happen to cast it.

2. They have to roll for that spell anyway so they might not get it and I doubt we'll be seeing all wizard armies alot with percentage caps and the importance of BSB's and cheap combat characters in general.

3. With how random dispel/power pool will be no guarantees it will be so easy to get those off.

4. Another thing is it makes people think about spreading thier points a little more instead going super huge on units. The true horde troops can still do it though because it's not a big deal to them. So in a way those spells existance is anti-deathstar. As is a more powerful shooting phase.

Kayosiv
20-06-2010, 22:53
I'm not sure if it gently pushes the game away from giant deathstars, or makes the armies that have the capacity to give their giant deathstars magic resistance 3 the new power armies.

Volker the Mad Fiddler
20-06-2010, 22:57
I'm not sure if it gently pushes the game away from giant deathstars, or makes the armies that have the capacity to give their giant deathstars magic resistance 3 the new power armies.

But doesn't MR just improve your ward save against damage? If so, the worst spells [that force stat tests, or buff/debuff units] would still function and the death star strategy will still be iffy.

Kayosiv
20-06-2010, 23:09
That's a good point.

It seems odd that magic resistant wouldn't protection you against hexes, which is the new name for debuff spells and they seem to be everywhere.

Without the book in front of me though, I can't comment any more on that specifically. Perhaps even more so than straight damage, the hex/buff spells cast will be a new strategic element ot the magic phase. Sometimes making something very weak is better than outright killing it off.

Nocculum
20-06-2010, 23:10
I cannot believe I just hear the 8th Edition rules criticised for something preferring a 'low magic setting.'

Warhammer has, and never will be, a 'low magic setting.'

If anything, mages killing 1-2 Orks with a MIGHTY Fireball of Doom is so stupidly off the chart of ignoring the setting and point of magic that the new shift is the seemingly blatant and obvious way to go.

If you don't like magic in a fantasy game...don't play a fantasy game based on magic!

Jack of Blades
20-06-2010, 23:21
I cannot believe I just hear the 8th Edition rules criticised for something preferring a 'low magic setting.'

Warhammer has, and never will be, a 'low magic setting.'

If anything, mages killing 1-2 Orks with a MIGHTY Fireball of Doom is so stupidly off the chart of ignoring the setting and point of magic that the new shift is the seemingly blatant and obvious way to go.

If you don't like magic in a fantasy game...don't play a fantasy game based on magic!

If I had a huge bell-contraption, I would chime it now to your truthful sayings.

Ultimate Life Form
20-06-2010, 23:25
If I had a huge bell-contraption, I would chime it now to your truthful sayings.

Not the 13! :eek:

Nocculum
20-06-2010, 23:34
Ian Livingstone is turning his +3 Sword of Doom in his grave...woe to Warseer...woe...

Jack of Blades
20-06-2010, 23:43
Not the 13! :eek:

But as you shall see my friend Ultimate Life Form, whether you roll a 13 or not doesn't make a difference in the grand designs of the forumites.

Great Warseer Bell
Chime the bell and consult the chart below.

Result 1 = Whine
Result 2 = Whine
Result 3 = Whine
Result 4 = Whine
Result 5 = Whine
Result 6 = Whine
Result 7 = Whine
Result 8 = Whine
Result 9 = Whine
Result 10 = Whine
Result 11 = Whine
Result 12 = Whine
Result 13 = Whine

Whine
As something happens, whether it be a new edition release, a new army book, rumors or just general ranting, a great wave of paranoia and anger sweeps over the forumites like Gnoblars over spare mud.
Each Forumite gains Stupidity, Frenzy that it can never lose and Hatred for every round of combat. Roll a D6 each turn. On the roll of a 1, Warseer suffers a wound with no saves allowed and Whine spreads to every other Forumite within 6''.

Nocculum
20-06-2010, 23:48
But as you shall see my friend Ultimate Life Form, whether you roll a 13 or not doesn't make a difference in the grand designs of the forumites.

Great Warseer Bell
Chime the bell and consult the chart below.

Result 1 = Whine
Result 2 = Whine
Result 3 = Whine
Result 4 = Whine
Result 5 = Whine
Result 6 = Whine
Result 7 = Whine
Result 8 = Whine
Result 9 = Whine
Result 10 = Whine
Result 11 = Whine
Result 12 = Whine
Result 13 = Whine

Whine
As something happens, whether it be a new edition release, a new army book, rumors or just general ranting, a great wave of paranoia and anger sweeps over the forumites like Gnoblars over spare mud.
Each Forumite gains Stupidity, Frenzy that it can never lose and Hatred for every round of combat. Roll a D6 each turn. On the roll of a 1, Warseer suffers a wound with no saves allowed and Whine spreads to every other Forumite within 6''.

I amend the post I just made in another discussion. This is the most profound thing posted on Warseer Fantasy General in the previous month :D

Free Spirit
20-06-2010, 23:49
I was thinking the same thing. Too bad it's to big for a signature.

SPSchnepp2
20-06-2010, 23:50
I play lizardmen and, of course, agree with you to a certain point: 7th ed heavens wasn't that great. however, the lores could have been slightly revamped, so that every spell has a reason to be there. (I would also have been in favor of being able to choose your spells. if all spells were of about equal relative strength, that wouldn't have been a problem and would have opened up a lot more tactical possibilities)

I think I can one-up you with the fact that I play Bretonnians.


But as you shall see my friend Ultimate Life Form, whether you roll a 13 or not doesn't make a difference in the grand designs of the forumites.

Great Warseer Bell
Chime the bell and consult the chart below.

Result 1 = Whine
Result 2 = Whine
Result 3 = Whine
Result 4 = Whine
Result 5 = Whine
Result 6 = Whine
Result 7 = Whine
Result 8 = Whine
Result 9 = Whine
Result 10 = Whine
Result 11 = Whine
Result 12 = Whine
Result 13 = Whine

Whine
As something happens, whether it be a new edition release, a new army book, rumors or just general ranting, a great wave of paranoia and anger sweeps over the forumites like Gnoblars over spare mud.
Each Forumite gains Stupidity, Frenzy that it can never lose and Hatred for every round of combat. Roll a D6 each turn. On the roll of a 1, Warseer suffers a wound with no saves allowed and Whine spreads to every other Forumite within 6''.

Hasn't someone done a Warseer Army Book for the laughs?

Personally, I'd like the magic being more random if it weren't for the increased randomness in other stages of the game, most particularly charges.

Idle Scholar
21-06-2010, 00:02
I cannot believe I just hear the 8th Edition rules criticised for something preferring a 'low magic setting.'

Warhammer has, and never will be, a 'low magic setting.'

If anything, mages killing 1-2 Orks with a MIGHTY Fireball of Doom is so stupidly off the chart of ignoring the setting and point of magic that the new shift is the seemingly blatant and obvious way to go.

If you don't like magic in a fantasy game...don't play a fantasy game based on magic!

But people can and will criticise poorly implemented magic rules that make the game less fun (by whatever criteria they hold for fun).

Nocculum
21-06-2010, 00:08
They can. With logical and factual observations of the magic system invested in said game.

Which is not what my comment was referring to, nor what much of the comments of said nature were based upon.

Idle Scholar
21-06-2010, 00:14
They can. With logical and factual observations of the magic system invested in said game.

Which is not what my comment was referring to, nor what much of the comments of said nature were based upon.

Indeed, and that's why I've voted wait and see.

Volker the Mad Fiddler
21-06-2010, 00:19
SNIP
Sorry, but I have to disagree. In fact, I would even argue that this makes tactics [there is no real strategy in Warhammer other than list building as strategy describes whole war efforts- supply lines, where to fight, over what, etc.] even a bigger part of the game as one now has to be more flexible and able to react.
It depends on what you think of as tactics [since a large part of actual tactics are already negated merely by the full view of the battlefield players have]. Randomness makes the game more unpredictable but isn't dealing with the unexpected precisely what good tacticians are able to do?

With all that said though, I actually prefer lower magic settings and the power of the spells does worry me a bit, but we shall see.


I cannot believe I just hear the 8th Edition rules criticised for something preferring a 'low magic setting.'

Warhammer has, and never will be, a 'low magic setting.'

If anything, mages killing 1-2 Orks with a MIGHTY Fireball of Doom is so stupidly off the chart of ignoring the setting and point of magic that the new shift is the seemingly blatant and obvious way to go.

If you don't like magic in a fantasy game...don't play a fantasy game based on magic!

How exactly is "does worry me a bit, but we shall see" a criticism?
You might have a leg to stand on if not for the fact that for the last 10 years Warhammer has been a low magic setting and in the fluff it is most definitely so, though admittedly this is changing a bit. Mages exist, but are regarded with fear and awe as they rare and otherworldy. Despite a massive underground empire, most people are ignorant to the existence of Skaven. Most people in the world will never encounter a mage, a magic item, the undead or a daemon despite the in game commonness of all of these. The setting is [or least was] too dark and gritty to really be considered high magic though it could be called 'high fantasy'- even this is a bit of a stretch as while it contains many of the aspects of high fantasy, the central struggle between good and evil is less clear than in most high fantasy [though the opposition of Order and Destruction is changing this was well].

In fact, in the fluff, only the most powerful mages like Teclis, the Witch King and early generation Slaan are capable of magics which destroy whole units and smash armies. Now every hedge wizard and minor mystic has the capability of doing so. Taking the power that only the few have and giving it to everyone is hardly the "blatant and obvious way to go". Why then is every fighting hero not the equivalent of Gotrek?

As I said, we shall wait and see how to it plays out.

kaintxu
21-06-2010, 00:25
I've wanted this for the longest time; finally my Slann, the mightiest spellcaster in the universe, is no longer stuck with minor cantrips while Daemons and Vampires rain doom and destruction on their enemies.


Well it ok yo adreess this like that, but sorry not that sure slanns are the mightiest spellcaster in the universe......... Lord of tzeentz being just a GD come to mind, then we go to kayros, and last but not least what about just TZEENTZ or even the ancients?

Paraelix
21-06-2010, 01:02
I hate it personally.

I wanted the opposite to happen to magic in regards to its risk vs reward factor. Miscasts are so devastating at this point that it is looking like a reasonable tactic to fill your army with a few cheap level 1 wizards, charge them solo at the enemy at full speed, and throw 6 dice at a spell in at attempt to miscast, using them like living bombs on the enemy.

STOP RIGHT THERE!

Thread name; Magic Lores

Your argument; Magic Mechanics

I have no problem with the new Lores... Anyone complaining about the hardcore-ness of the spells should remember the fact that only 1 spell of each Lore can actually be replicated.

J.P. Biff
21-06-2010, 01:20
I voted wait and see, but just by looking at the new magic it seems, like previous posters have said, magic is now a double edged sword. Potentially great rewards, but potentially great catastrophes as well. I for one always fielded a scroll caddy in 95% of my armies so sort of look forward to actually trying to cast spells now with a level 2, however being on the receiving end of some of the new spells... might be a bit of a p*ss off. But at the same time when my opponent miscasts and kills himself and others. Well, I'll just silently giggle my a$$ off :P !

Sygerrik
21-06-2010, 01:58
Getting off the more powerful versions of some spells is going to be damn near impossible. I think that, temporarily at least, the non-BRB lores have some advantages, because their casting values tend to be lower. A level 4 wizard can reliably cast a CV 11 spell on two dice now. There are lots of good reasons not to throw one die (especially since the consequences of failing to meet the casting value of a spell can range from bad to catastrophic), so I expect lots of two-dice throws.

Argent
21-06-2010, 06:43
I think you know what I mean. gamers are people who play the game mainly because of its gameplay and don't care too much about fluff or the hobby aspect. they want a more or less controllable environment so that strategy and tactics play a big role.

The term you're looking for is "Mix-Maxer." A gamer, by definition, is someone who plays games, be it competitively or causally. For example, in baseball, you can have a professional team like the Yankees that are incredibly good (most of the time) and get paid to do their job and a causal team like a company baseball team. The gap in their goals is tremendous, but they're both still baseball players.

I really don't agree with you when you say that the game should be completely based around what is fun for one hard-core gamer and not the majority of players. Also, yes, the new magic is incredibly potent, and in my opinion that's how magic should be. We're talking about the power to tear worlds asunder here, it should be better then, as ULF put it somewhere else, "cheap parlor tricks and prestidigitation." Many armies that are magic heavy also don't have much in the ways of Warmachines, so if it really bugs you, you can think of the Magic Phase as the Ranged Guess Weapons phase of High Elves, Lizardmen, and the like.


I don't say that some randomness is bad. but when a whole phase is so random that you have little control over what happens, the point has been reached where randomness play too big a role.

It seems hypocritical to me when someone complains about randomness in a game where dice throwing is involved. Also, it irks me that people complain about magic, which not only has an incredibly destructive chance to backfire now as well as ways of preventing it entirely via dispelling and resistances when there isn't much a player can do about an incoming cannonball or organ gun other then pray for a misfire, especially with the guessing being gone from the weapons.


I play lizardmen and, of course, agree with you to a certain point: 7th ed heavens wasn't that great. however, the lores could have been slightly revamped, so that every spell has a reason to be there. (I would also have been in favor of being able to choose your spells. if all spells were of about equal relative strength, that wouldn't have been a problem and would have opened up a lot more tactical possibilities)

Well, I would have to say that you sort of got part of your wish in the new Lores; all of the spells are incredibly useful in multiple situations.

If you haven't guessed, I'm extremely excited for the new spells and the revamped magic phase. Guess that makes me an uninformed, causal, 12-year-old wannabe gamer :(.

artisturn
21-06-2010, 06:52
voted wait and see,

As it is I hardly roll double sixes but now that it is a bad thing I am expecting a shift in reality where double sixes will happen to me more often.

Nocculum
21-06-2010, 09:33
The Warhammer Online trailer featuring the Bright Wizard, and the Lord of Change is a casing point for what a wizard should be doing.

andyg2006
21-06-2010, 09:49
I got my first look at the rulebook the other day...admittedly, my scan through wasn't exhaustive, but I couldn't find anything which said you can't have the same spell in the same army (i.e. 2 wizards with the same lore generating the same spell); I thought it was just that (as in 7th) you can't have the same wizard knowing the same spell themselves. Is this just a rumour, or fact?

I quite liked the idea of spells having multiple casting values (i.e. you decide how much you want to risk it), but I'm not a fan of having to use your power dice to cast bound spells; I'd hoped it was going to be as in 7th (i.e. additional to spellcasting).

Yeah, the miscast table is nasty and even just failing to cast (even if it's not a miscast) can stall your magic.

Archangelion
21-06-2010, 11:24
The wording (as usual for GW) was a bit... odd. But I think that it does mean that you may not have two of the same spell in one army. The exepctions to this seem to be the basic spell of each lore, and wizards that know a certain spell or spells. For example. I can have a lvl 4 Supreem sorc with the basic spell, and 3 regular spells, a lvl 2 with 2 more regular spells, and a lvl 2 with the basic spell and 1 regular spell, and Morathi with all the spells. All from the Lore of Dark Magic. This works in the same way, or at least it seems to, for any lore. So if you have a caster that knows all or certain spells, they do not count towards the duplicate spells rule.

dragonet111
21-06-2010, 11:34
The wording (as usual for GW) was a bit... odd. But I think that it does mean that you may not have two of the same spell in one army. The exepctions to this seem to be the basic spell of each lore, and wizards that know a certain spell or spells. For example. I can have a lvl 4 Supreem sorc with the basic spell, and 3 regular spells, a lvl 2 with 2 more regular spells, and a lvl 2 with the basic spell and 1 regular spell, and Morathi with all the spells. All from the Lore of Dark Magic. This works in the same way, or at least it seems to, for any lore. So if you have a caster that knows all or certain spells, they do not count towards the duplicate spells rule.

If it work that way I'm fine with it. I was wondering how it works with a Lord of Change and a herald of Tzeentch. Even if it's true with 12 dice max the herald will probably only cast the first spell of Tzeentch.

plantagenet
21-06-2010, 12:47
I have a question from what I have heard if a wizard fails to cast a spell that wizard cannot be used again in that magic phase. Now to me this would imply if I dispel a wizards spell he has failed to cast it and therefore cant cant another spell. Is this correct?

This means that if your opposition only has one wizard you as the opposition can afford to chuck your maximum 6 dice at a dispel attempt becuase if you are successful he cant cast another one anyway. This in turn will force enemy wizards to push the number of dice they try rolling when they want to cast a spell thereby greatly increasign the chance of a miscast. I personally think the magic phase will have a good level of complexity and tactical thought to it.

phoenixguard09
21-06-2010, 13:17
Well I personally didn't see to much wrong with magic in 7th. Nothing a few little tweaks wouldn't fix. The problems were mainly with the new Lores anyway and an overdose of synergy (First time I've used that word on Warseer. I feel all professional now. ;) ) with their armies.

8th to me feels like a phase of the game that should be in support of the entire army, is instead being used to compensate for tactical inability.

"Oh no my Knights are stuck in the marsh on the left flank and my army is now open to that Killy Deathstar Unit of Killy Death(TM)! Quick, sorceror, blow up in their faces! That'll stop 'em." *BOOM* "Aaah. I do love the smell of roasted wizard and lizard faces in the morning."

loveless
21-06-2010, 14:50
Hmm...I'm more interested in buffs and debuffs than straight damage. It's far more entertaining to horrendously cripple your opponent and then kill them with basic core troops. Likewise, buffing said troops to oblivion and then whacking the enemy with obscene amounts of damage is equally entertaining.

It all sounds pretty good to me - I don't necessarily feel required to take mages, but it's easier now that slots are gone. At the same time, I may be able to get by with having a mage have a support spell that doesn't feel pointless while saving the damage-dealing for my troops and fighty-heroes.

It feels better than 7th, though I'll have to play it to be sure it's not annoying in new and obnoxious ways...

Desert Rain
21-06-2010, 16:41
They sounds really powerful and a bit ridiculous on paper, but I won't give any judgement on them until I have tried them in a game.

Idle Scholar
21-06-2010, 18:03
It seems in theory that you won't get the more powerful spells off without miscasting. Not only that but you'll have to balance the risk of not cast and ending your magic phase. Do you go for the big one with you're L4 at the start, or do you risk some minor spells first? To me this all seems pretty cool and will probably balance out how powerful; some of the spells are. You then however have various bits of army specific gear which'll let you break this a bit. But as people have mentioned those armies tend not to have awesome shooting, or are deficient in some other area.

Nocculum
21-06-2010, 18:05
The Black Tongue is certainly more fun now ;)

50 points to blow up a unit? Oh yes please.

Archangelion
22-06-2010, 11:04
So do the Life and Beasts lores basicly rule out the need for a Lore of the Lady? Do they acheive what a Lore of the Lady would do anyways? Do they buff your knights and give them protection?

dragonet111
22-06-2010, 11:12
I wanted one. Now the new lore are amazing and the need for a Lore of the Lady is not necessary but I still want one because it will be unique to the bretonnian, totally unnecessary but IMO so fun:D

Archangelion
23-06-2010, 01:36
I am just currious as to what the new spells are now, and I curse myself for not reading them when I had the chance!

Sinsigel
23-06-2010, 02:01
So do the Life and Beasts lores basicly rule out the need for a Lore of the Lady? Do they acheive what a Lore of the Lady would do anyways? Do they buff your knights and give them protection?

Rejoice, for you can now see T5/T7 grail knights(#2, #3 spell from lore of life) or bestow regeneration rule(basic spell) upon them. You can also raise dead knights as if they were undead.(#5 from lore of life) Time to accompany damsels.:)

Sygerrik
23-06-2010, 02:13
Life is unbelievably good. I think it's the best book lore right now. Damsels are in luck.

Paraelix
23-06-2010, 02:14
They sounds really powerful and a bit ridiculous on paper, but I won't give any judgement on them until I have tried them in a game.

Fire was a little underwhelming in the game I played.

Still... Best spells;
1) Fire Cage
2) Flaming Sword
3) Flaming Cape (or whatever its called)

Even the ridiculous number of hits Fireball didn't present many opportunities to be useful.

Sygerrik
23-06-2010, 03:50
Fire was a little underwhelming in the game I played.

Still... Best spells;
1) Fire Cage
2) Flaming Sword
3) Flaming Cape (or whatever its called)

Even the ridiculous number of hits Fireball didn't present many opportunities to be useful.

The problem right now is direct damage spells are additive. The more of them you cast, the more damage you deal. Buff spells, in particular the insane ones in the lores of Life and Light, are multiplicative-- they layer on units to make them absolutely ridiculous. Empire Greatswords with Speed of Light and Birona's Timewarp; Inner Circle Knights with Flesh to Stone (or Throne Flesh to Stone, shudder) and Regrowth support; or Chaos Warriors with 2 HW, Enchanted Blades of Aiban and Glittering Robe-- these are much more dangerous then most direct damage spells.

Paraelix
23-06-2010, 06:23
The problem right now is direct damage spells are additive. The more of them you cast, the more damage you deal.

I'm not quite sure I follow what you're saying here >_>

Fire gains the +D3 for casting purposes, but none of the spells do more damage as a result of another damage spell...

Petey
23-06-2010, 06:30
I love the new lists. They actually powerful without feeling like they've robbed anyone. In past editions if your opponents went magic heavy, it made one feel unable to do anything, while if they went light it was like "free kicks on a puppy" day.
In this, one seems to worry about every spell that may or may not make it through, and when one rolls total power, they pay for it dearly. That good chance they nuke themselves makes me feel better about not being able to do anything about the spell's undispellability.
Additionally, in all honest, it feels right. The rules now match the fluff. Wizards are strange and powerful. Normal troops will distrust them (with good reason).

The only part I don't like is that spells (except signature spells of course) cannot repeat in an army. Though this is ambiguous when concerning people who get every spell in a lore ( the wording is odd in the book as to whether they affect mages who have to roll or if they don't)

Petey
23-06-2010, 06:33
The problem right now is direct damage spells are additive. The more of them you cast, the more damage you deal. Buff spells, in particular the insane ones in the lores of Life and Light, are multiplicative-- they layer on units to make them absolutely ridiculous. Empire Greatswords with Speed of Light and Birona's Timewarp; Inner Circle Knights with Flesh to Stone (or Throne Flesh to Stone, shudder) and Regrowth support; or Chaos Warriors with 2 HW, Enchanted Blades of Aiban and Glittering Robe-- these are much more dangerous then most direct damage spells.

Huge casting values will prevent this from being an issue too often, coupled with the fact that similar high level spells in other lores simply remove enemy units with damage, it seems that they're not going to be any more dangerous than other spells that your opponents will have equal access to.

Petey
23-06-2010, 06:35
Life is unbelievably good. I think it's the best book lore right now. Damsels are in luck.

Transformation of Kodon... I <3 it sooooo much.

Archangelion
23-06-2010, 11:10
I like that I can give (if the list someone on here printed off is accurate) a ring with a fireball spell (bound lvl 3) to one of my champions in my DE army. I am mostly looking forward to the suprise factor. Cast spells with all my wizards, my opponent thinks its all about to end as my last sorc uses her last dice to cast her last spell, so he uses what dispell dice he has left on that... and then a fireball comes shooting out of one of my unit champions! lol :D

Oberon
23-06-2010, 12:08
Yes, as long as you still have PD left to power up the ring. You still have to use PD to reach the power level of the bound item/spell... Benefits over normal spells: if you fail you can still cast your other spells, miscasts don't roll the table but you lose the spell/item, and you don't have to be a wizard to have a bound spell. Furthermore, you can't cast the more powerful versions of spells (like fireball) with a bound spell.

I'm really liking the new lores open for WoC, Okkam's Mindrazor and many other buffs/hexes for the sorc lord to show his power over mortal men. Death is like more powerful but less reliable/easy lore of nurgle (all damage spells are good only for sniping) and fire finally has only good spells.

GrimmHammer
23-06-2010, 13:10
Went up against a Chaos Death Star with my empire - after turn one he threw in the towel - Lore of Metal is disgusting against them - as always but now the spell with no save of any kind... Yep throwing 6 dice for it is cool with me and miscasting is well worth the total power.

Sygerrik
23-06-2010, 15:59
I'm not quite sure I follow what you're saying here >_>

Fire gains the +D3 for casting purposes, but none of the spells do more damage as a result of another damage spell...

What I mean is... you cast Fireball once, you get X hits. You cast it again, you get X more hits. Each successive cast adds to the total damage you deal.

You cast buff spells, you multiply the force output of a unit. You cast a second buff, you multiply it again, counting the original multiplier. If you have truly nasty models to cast it on (Chaos Chosen, Grail Knights, etc.) you end up with multiplied force.

And Petey, a lot of the best buffs have a very low and reasonable casting value for when you're only targeting one unit (all the ones I mentioned, for one). I only want to affect units that are going to get to use it, anyways.

GodlessM
23-06-2010, 22:00
Not in the Lore of Shadow though; talk about high maintenance.

Archangelion
24-06-2010, 11:25
You have to save power dice for your bound spell items now? wtf?!