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bigG
20-06-2010, 11:43
If you had the ear of the author of the next army book and all the sculpters etc, what would YOU like them to put in the book, from new rules and army list entries to new models and fluff content.
I only bring this up as with 8th edition round the corner and many of you are looking through it in-store, the "usual suspects" for a first 8th edition army book are either O&G or Empire going on past sequence's.Please, all TK and Bret players don't shout all at once this is NOT a rumour, only my opinion

shelfunit.
20-06-2010, 11:50
Clockwork griffin, like in the current books picture. Knightly Order customization, like in the old WD article, generally more troop types. Nothing overpowering, just more tactical options. foot knights - greatswords with Hw-Shd etc

tezdal
20-06-2010, 11:57
Get rid of cod-pieces, puffy sleeves, and feathers.

bigG
20-06-2010, 12:00
Get rid of cod-pieces, puffy sleeves, and feathers.

and replace with ...?
look up landsknechts and reislaufer

Putty
20-06-2010, 12:01
1) return of war wagons
2) foot knights
3) redo steam tank (currently its the most overcosted rare choice)
4) volley gun: no rolls to hit. auto wound
5) plastic resculpted war altar
6) prayers of sigmar needs to be redone because of the new bound spell rules.

Tymell
20-06-2010, 12:05
1) return of war wagons
2) foot knights
3) redo steam tank (currently its the most overcosted rare choice)
5) plastic resculpted war altar
6) prayers of sigmar needs to be redone because of the new bound spell rules.

I think I'd go with all of these, and not much else: truth be told, I really don't think Empire need a new book anytime soon, in models, rules and background material they're pretty solid as is.

Stumpy
20-06-2010, 12:14
Totally rework the steam tank: I use one and I really don't like its rules. They are far to complicated with way too many wierd nuances.
Make it a chariot, 2D6 impact hits when it charges, D6 in sustained combat. It can fire both its cannon and flame once/game. Unbreakabe, large target, terror. Adjust stats and points cost appropriately.
SOOO much easier than having to explain to everyone what it does and having huge strengths and weaknesses.

Other than that... make the detachment rules work. In 8th, they might as well just remove them if we need such large detachments to flank.
Make greatswords usable.
Change prayers a bit to suit new rules.
Make flaggies usable under new rules (instead of charge, strike at initiative and thus die).
Master engineers (again).
Make halberdiers 1+.

The rest is fine, we don't want an army with stupid builds or unusually powerful units thanks.

Paraelix
20-06-2010, 12:18
4) volley gun: no rolls to hit. auto wound


How about we add an "auto-win" feature while we're at it?

hellharlequin
20-06-2010, 12:32
my changes:
1.) steam tank move from rare to mount of a technicus
2.) add war wagon to rare
3) add option for dismounted knights
4) remove WS4&I4 of the swordfighters

Anton
20-06-2010, 12:45
Something I'd like to see is an improvement to the General of the Empire. Preferably by giving him some special rule beside Ancient Heirloom. Something to show that he is a leader and tactician.

vinush
20-06-2010, 12:54
Model wise, I'd like halberds and spears that don't snap as soon as you look at them. Currently they are far too feeble and every time i open my case i find another couple have snapped. Unlike my conversion from men at arms, who have solid, good quality weapons.

Lt Dougheim
20-06-2010, 13:06
I would like to see the return of halflings to the list. After all the Elder of the Moot is an Elector of the emperor. Also I would love to see expatriot dwarves and ogres, like 5th ed. That way you could get the United Nations feel back in the army thats been missing since 5th.

darkstar
20-06-2010, 13:15
I'd make priests able to join flagellants.
I'd like to see each character choice provide different bonuses if they are the general. Something like:
Wizard - all units in 12" have magical attacks
Priest - all units in 12" have hatred
Captain/general - all units in 12" may behave as detachments
Engineer - all artillery in 12" may re-roll first artillery dice
Grand master - cavalry in 12" may re-roll hits and wounds on the charge.

Something like that, with appropriate cost increases. Make leaders of men the leaders that they're supposed to be.

I distinctly don't want them to get rid of puffy sleeves and feathers. That's the image that they've gone with, and I like it.

burad
20-06-2010, 13:29
Pikes.
War Wagons.

Seth the Dark
20-06-2010, 13:38
A witch hunter hero or lord would be fun.

Ultimate Life Form
20-06-2010, 13:42
I'm afraid to make me interested in Empire they'd have to gut the army in a fashion you'd no longer recognize it, so I will withhold my suggestions at this point. :o

zak
20-06-2010, 13:52
I would like to see some new knights, even if they only changed the horses and added some bits for customization of the different orders. The War Wagon would be a nice addition as well as the return of Halflings. I'm not so bothered about dwarves and Ogres though.

Hakkapelli
20-06-2010, 14:10
Pikemen, Halflings, Kislev stuff.

A Look for the troops. Either the puffy Landsknecht style of old or something else. The state troopers look like they just removed the puffs from the old ones and couldn't think of something to add instead. Oh, and new state troopers in the new style.

Make Pistoilers WYSIWYG. They wear more armour then Greatswords for Sigmar's sake so why does it only count as light armour. I could buy if it was heavy armour. Thinner metal and all that could (and usually does in WH) explain one step down but not IMO two unless it is made out of tinfoil. Either give them heavy/full plate or make models with only a breastplate as proper light cavalry.

Make a hierarchy among the units with Militia<State troops<Elite (greatswords) with each unit with the detachment rule able to take detachments from its own or a lower cathegory. So Militia can take militia detachments, State troopers can take militia or state trooper detachments and Elites can take any detachment they like, even greatsword detachments.

Make halberd/sword/spear/pike/handgun/crossbowmen basic stats like the current spearmen (Ws3 Bs3 I3 Ld7) and upgradable to something like the swordsmen (Ws/Bs4 I3(4?) Ld8) with the basic troops being local militia and the upgraded being the real professional State troopers. Training hard every dav and all that should have some effect in game terms.

Odin
20-06-2010, 14:12
Get rid of cod-pieces, puffy sleeves, and feathers.

You mean get rid of the Empire, basically.



4) remove WS4&I4 of the swordfighters

No way. 8th has already made spearmen and halberdiers more tempting, no need to nerf the swordsmen.

chilledenuff
20-06-2010, 14:16
Less skulls on the models..
Return of war wagons and pikes, I always see the empire as a pike & shotte type of army so that would be it.
Oh, and how about 'always beats Deamons of Chaos/Dark Elf' rule?:D

Odin
20-06-2010, 14:19
Less skulls on the models..
Return of war wagons and pikes, I always see the empire as a pike & shotte type of army so that would be it.
Oh, and how about 'always beats Deamons of Chaos/Dark Elf' rule?:D

I like the skulls, but perhaps make them more optional. My main requirement model-wise is some decent plastic knights, and infantry with boots, not slippers and bare feet.

danny-d-b
20-06-2010, 14:35
Do something with the stank rather than it either being a auto win or a waste of time hide in the corner thing depending on your army

make all 3 core inf worth taking equilly

Alow difrent kinds of armys to be built- allow northen armys to take kislev troops, alow nuln armys to take more shooters (but take away the option of having knights say) alow south armys to take pikes

but most importantly- make it blalanced both internaly and externaly- make everything worth taking and not somethings a waste of time and others a auto win choice

Rochr
20-06-2010, 15:16
Totally rework the steam tank: I use one and I really don't like its rules. They are far to complicated with way too many wierd nuances.
Make it a chariot, 2D6 impact hits when it charges, D6 in sustained combat. It can fire both its cannon and flame once/game. Unbreakabe, large target, terror. Adjust stats and points cost appropriately.

Err... You realize this would make it way too strong? All you would have to do is get it into CC with any elite unit and it is stuck there for the rest of the game. 2D6 Str 6 impact hits... I don't think so. I have problems with the Doomwheel as it is, don't need another Ultra Doomwheel version.



SOOO much easier than having to explain to everyone what it does and having huge strengths and weaknesses.

I agree.

gogs78
20-06-2010, 15:21
Give every tenth guy his shoes back?:confused:

Artinam
20-06-2010, 15:48
Pikes (basicly add parts of the Dogs of War to Empire), some more wacky steam punk equipment for Master Engineers (making them worth choosing).

In general they are fine, the only thing I don't like is the mass use of War Alters and Steam tanks. Its like they have an assembly line putting somewhere... So increase power and price. Maybe add some rarerity rule. You can have the maximum of one Steam Tank (but is getting additional options ect and an increased price). Make the Waralter count towards the Rare slot allotment.

I'm also for something like this with Bretonnia. Buff and increase the price of Grail Knights to reflect their fluff a bit more.

Lord Solar Plexus
20-06-2010, 16:09
I can only hope that the prospective author is never informed about this thread. Many suggestions are plain...never mind. Priests joining Flaggellants? What for? Halflings? Meh. Foot knights? Again, what use would they have? What would distinguish them from Great Swords? :confused: Even worse stats for State Troops? Brilliant! Perhaps introduce Pikes but for fear of being completely overpowered cheese make them WS 1 with the option to go from 0 A to 1 A for 10 points.

I mean come on.



Make Pistoilers WYSIWYG.


They are WYSIWIG. What they wear is light armour.

bigG
20-06-2010, 19:14
[QUOTE=Lord Solar Plexus;4750189]I can only hope that the prospective author is never informed about this thread. Many suggestions are plain...never mind. Priests joining Flaggellants? What for? Halflings? Meh. Foot knights? Again, what use would they have? What would distinguish them from Great Swords? :confused: Even worse stats for State Troops? Brilliant! Perhaps introduce Pikes but for fear of being completely overpowered cheese make them WS 1 with the option to go from 0 A to 1 A for 10 points.

ohhkay, would you like to add something positive instead?, bitte

RanaldLoec
20-06-2010, 19:20
How about an engineers regiment that could chose from between the old war wagon weapons

vcassano
20-06-2010, 20:38
I'd like to see each character choice provide different bonuses if they are the general. Something like:
Wizard - all units in 12" have magical attacks
Priest - all units in 12" have hatred
Captain/general - all units in 12" may behave as detachments
Engineer - all artillery in 12" may re-roll first artillery dice
Grand master - cavalry in 12" may re-roll hits and wounds on the charge.

Something like that, with appropriate cost increases. Make leaders of men the leaders that they're supposed to be.

I like the idea of making each leader type distinct. These rules seem a little bit too over the top, maybe these should just affect the unit they are in or something similar but the concept is nice.

Overall though, the Empire have a pretty well designed book. The War Altar is vastly under-priced and the whole Pope-mobile character needs to be altered because it is such an easy and obvious character choice to make. The only other real change I'd make is somehow make the Steam Tank less complicated. I like the idea of it being a high-tech chariot though the rules suggestions made here are a little over the top.

Dejay
20-06-2010, 20:48
Master Engineer to be BS5. After all he spends a lot of his time tinkering with guns. Oh and new Knights.

Volker the Mad Fiddler
20-06-2010, 21:00
I would like to see the return of halflings to the list. After all the Elder of the Moot is an Elector of the emperor. Also I would love to see expatriot dwarves and ogres, like 5th ed. That way you could get the United Nations feel back in the army thats been missing since 5th.

Agreed. As long as Kislev comes back also. Winged Lancers are simply cool and the War Wagon is far more interesting than a Steam Tank.

tezdal
20-06-2010, 21:07
You mean get rid of the Empire, basically..


Works for me.

Arkfatalis
20-06-2010, 21:40
Merge DOW with the Empire, so the Empire has the cool non-human aspects like it did in the 4th and DOW players still get to play their army, as well as being able to field interesting things from the Empire army. Rather than create a Empire book create a Human book with DOW, Kislev and the Empire combined.

stashman
20-06-2010, 23:16
Halfling Militia
(core choice)

Hunter Hero
(skilled with Hochland Longrifle BS6, Scouting ability, 5+ wardsave if in woodland terrain)

"Redo" Free Company
(make them "Mercenaries" with options of extra handweapon, shield, crossbow)

Jack of Blades
20-06-2010, 23:25
Not sure what people mean by dismounted knights. A knight is, and I know this will sound pedantic, an infantryman on a horse. All you'd do would be to remove the lance and horse from the unit and get a point cost reduction which could be done by simply using Greatswords and/or letting Greatswords use HW + Shield, unless you want to introduce some kind of special rule for not fighting on a horse :P... for fluff choices like Halflings that would have very little to no difference between them and regular humans, just make your own models unless you want GW to start supplying Halflings for your pleasure.

What I'd like to see more of is veterans. These guys have seen stuff, they've been there and done that. They're still not more than humans, but they'd be better at handling powerful things like Chaos Knights etc. because they've faced them in combat, survived and killed them before. They're not as blinded by psychological barriers such as fear when taking a charge from those Bulls, because they've hacked an Ogre's head off on another occassion. I would also like to see more different perks for taking different kinds of leadership. Veterans would be upgradeable on a unit-by-unit basis, not separate army list entries.

Charistoph
20-06-2010, 23:47
Just for gits and shiggles, and so I can possibly build a late 18th Century army, Rifleman, Rare, skirmishers 5-10, all armed with Hochland Long Rifles, BS 4, WS 2, no armor, MAYBE Scouts.

Stumpy
21-06-2010, 00:50
Err... You realize this would make it way too strong? All you would have to do is get it into CC with any elite unit and it is stuck there for the rest of the game. 2D6 Str 6 impact hits... I don't think so. I have problems with the Doomwheel as it is, don't need another Ultra Doomwheel version.


Getting stuck into elite units... the tank does that now anyway. I said rework the points costs and stats too, so say reduce it to T5 W5 Armour 2+ (as an example).

I'd also like to see archers not costing an arm and a leg, nor being our only skirmisher. Though in 8th skirmishing seems to be boring anyway.

Duke Georgal
21-06-2010, 00:59
Generally more troop types. Nothing overpowering, just more tactical options.

What? Empire has plenty of options as it is, no more are needed. If anyone gets foot knights it should be Bretonnia.


Get rid of cod-pieces, puffy sleeves, and feathers.

Then they would not be Empire! More cod pieces, and puffy sleeves all around!


Steam tank move from rare to mount of a technicus.

Yes! This is a must.


Less skulls on the models.

AMEN!

SPSchnepp2
21-06-2010, 01:16
Making the steam tank a mount for engineers would make me all kinds of happy. They should be dangerous rattletraps that only the most skilled engineers can wrangle, not churned out of an assembly line.
Kislev coming back would be a good thing, if ya ask me. They don't need to make Kislev its own separate army, just an add-on (or variant Army Book) to the Empire would suffice. It works as an Allied Contingent, it just needs to be updated for the new editions.


I would like to see the return of halflings to the list. After all the Elder of the Moot is an Elector of the emperor. Also I would love to see expatriate dwarves and ogres, like 5th ed. That way you could get the United Nations feel back in the army thats been missing since 5th.

I, too, would like to see the return of halflings, dwarves, and ogres.

soots
21-06-2010, 03:10
Steam tank and Helstrom rocket both moved from rare to special character. Bye Bye

--Core--
Huntsmen - replaced with halflings for 7pts each.
Crossbowmen/Handgunners - WS2 7pts. My spearmen are offended theyre WS3.
Free Company - WS2, Ld6. Hand weapon + Shield. dont cause panic. 3pts each.
Halberdiers - heavy armor.
Swordsmen - 5 pts.
Pikemen - 7 pts.
Knightly order - 20 pts each (All cavalry must get cheaper). Must select an order
- Reiksguard - Stubborn
- Blazing Sun - -1 to be hit. +1 to hit
- Knights Panther - Deploy any side table edge on 4+ second turn. 3+ third turn. 2+ fourth and consecutive turns.
- Knights of the White Wolf - GW and +1S

--Special--
Reiksguard - Mv4 Ws4 S3 T3 I4 A1 Ld8. Stubborn. 8pts. Can replace shields for GWs for 2 pts. Can be parent unit
Outriders - Removed. (2 handed gun on horse?)
-
--Rare--
Flaggelants - T4. 7pts each.
Helblaster - back to autohit
Special alliance rule. Dwarven warriors, elven spearmen or Ogre Iron guts.

Imperial Banner - state troops get +1 combat resolution within 12". 60 pts.
Griffon banner - 50pts.

Voss
21-06-2010, 03:37
I'm afraid to make me interested in Empire they'd have to gut the army in a fashion you'd no longer recognize it, so I will withhold my suggestions at this point. :o

Hmmm. I am wrong in reading this as (like me) you'd like the WackyTech removed and the Empire was integrated back into the warhammer world rather than the pages of Girl Genius?

SamVimes
21-06-2010, 03:43
I would absolutely love if they did something similar to the 3rd/4th edition Imperial Guard codex and had a simple system for tweaking the army for all the different provinces/army types. Of all armies in Warhammer, I think that the Empire is the best suited for something like that.

Never happen though. :(

Lost_Heretic
21-06-2010, 04:02
I would absolutely love if they did something similar to the 3rd/4th edition Imperial Guard codex and had a simple system for tweaking the army for all the different provinces/army types.

40K lends itself well to this because of the force organization chart's limitations (No more than 3 Heavy, etc.).

Warhammer Fantasy doesn't have this limitation - especially not with percentages now.

SamVimes
21-06-2010, 04:11
And yet it still has slots, there are differences in equipment, and percentages doesn't mean a system couldn't be put in place that would work and still provide the unique flavor that the Imp Guard codex did all those years ago. However, it won't happen, so it's a moot discussion.

Arkh
21-06-2010, 04:21
I'd make priests able to join flagellants.
I'd like to see each character choice provide different bonuses if they are the general. Something like:
Wizard - all units in 12" have magical attacks
Priest - all units in 12" have hatred
Captain/general - all units in 12" may behave as detachments
Engineer - all artillery in 12" may re-roll first artillery dice
Grand master - cavalry in 12" may re-roll hits and wounds on the charge.

Something like that, with appropriate cost increases. Make leaders of men the leaders that they're supposed to be.

I distinctly don't want them to get rid of puffy sleeves and feathers. That's the image that they've gone with, and I like it.

I am very much in favor of this idea, though naturally it would have to be play tested and balanced out through modified point costs.

But even more than that....

-The crayon launcher needs to go away
-The steam tank needs to be re-worked
-The war wagon needs to come back
-Engineers shouldn't have their BS increased, however they should be given a re-roll or a +1 to hit like the dwarves to show the reliability of their properly maintained weapons.
-General needs a serious boost
-War Altar is undercosted, especially now that it can't be auto popped by S7.

I have nothing against the idea of returning all of the allied contingent and mercenary rules from 5th ed empire, however I'd rather just see Dogs of War come back.

Lord Solar Plexus
21-06-2010, 06:05
ohhkay, would you like to add something positive instead?, bitte

I find that extremely difficult with this much nonsense floating about.

ChaosVC
21-06-2010, 06:51
I would prefer that they make optional list for "fluffy" armies ie; warrior-archlector priest army or other form of states army akin to the region they are from. Just like good old 6th ed army lists often found in the last few pages of the book.

Demonborger
21-06-2010, 06:51
Pikemen

Military doctrines purchaseable
Tercio Formation - big square with muskets on the corners, no flank, movement retrictions.
Linear Formation - much shallower formation, combined arms + volley fire + light 'Batalion' artillery - bit like skaven weapon teams.
College of Magic - bright wizard units ala warhammer online to work like horrors
Engineers - trenches/temporary defenses, sappers, artillery, steam tanks
Knightly Orders - greatswords and knights
Procession of the Host of Sigmar - Warrior Priests, flagellants, throw in Witch Hunters too

Tie the doctrines with a generic captain type choice and let them base army selections off of them. To restrict overpowered builds have certain doctrines clash with minor penalties based around leadership restriction of using BSB etc.

Or maybe make the doctrine army lists alternatives to the main one like the ones the old 6th edition army books had, but balance it and make it official.

phoenixguard09
21-06-2010, 07:00
Oh I'm gonna get flamed badly. :D

1. Remove Steam Tank. There are only 8 right? So why are people turning up to battles with Karl Franz, his Gryphon, 2 Steamers and a few of the Emperor's drinking buddies? Keep Tanks in the background or have soem sort of Apocalypse type release for Warhammer. I know about Legendary Battles but that was a bit of a flop. (By the way, I'm of the same opinion with Special Characters.)

2. Add in Foot Knights. Thats a given. Even if they're an option for Greatswords.

3. Put in rules for customising Artillery. Develop your own inventions.

4. Customise Knightly Orders like in that White Dwarf.

5. Outriders substitute Repeaters for normal Handguns or even eliminate them completely. Keep them as Pistolier champs then.

Models wise:

1. New State Troopers with less pronounced groins.

2. New Empire Knights. With horses not ponies. Please.

3. Greatswords for $50. And even that is pushing it.

shelfunit.
21-06-2010, 07:04
Oh I'm gonna get flamed badly. :D

1. Remove Steam Tank. There are only 8 right? So why are people turning up to battles with Karl Franz, his Gryphon, 2 Steamers and a few of the Emperor's drinking buddies? Keep Tanks in the background or have soem sort of Apocalypse type release for Warhammer. I know about Legendary Battles but that was a bit of a flop. (By the way, I'm of the same opinion with Special Characters.)

2. Add in Foot Knights. Thats a given.

3. Put in rules for customising Artillery. Develop your own inventions.

3. Customise Knightly Orders like in that White Dwarf.

4. Outriders substitute Repeaters for normal Handguns or even eliminate them completely. Keep them as Pistolier champs then.

Models wise:

1. New State Troopers with less pronounced groins.

2. New Empire Knights. With horses not ponies. Please.

3. Greatswords for $50. And even that is pushing it.

Or even make the steam tank a "special" rare choice - a special character for rares, so only 1 could ever be taken in a single army (for "epic" battles, each player could take one - in a multi-player game). Everything else great - smaller groins and less coverage with dead birds.

phoenixguard09
21-06-2010, 07:12
Well the thing with the Steam Tanks is that they're extremely rare and valuable and shouldn't be included in the average run of the mill game. Neither should the Emperor or Teclis for example but everyone does it all the same. :rolleyes:

Now if they were put at 0-1 Rare and may only be included in 5000 point games along with Special Characters and other astonishingly rare things like um, Hell Pit Abominations. (They're rare right? Background wise?)

Volker the Mad Fiddler
21-06-2010, 07:20
Oh I'm gonna get flamed badly. :D

1. Remove Steam Tank. There are only 8 right? So why are people turning up to battles with Karl Franz, his Gryphon, 2 Steamers and a few of the Emperor's drinking buddies? Keep Tanks in the background or have soem sort of Apocalypse type release for Warhammer. I know about Legendary Battles but that was a bit of a flop. (By the way, I'm of the same opinion with Special Characters.) SNIP

I have been advocating this since 5th edition [when I started playing], but no one ever seems to hear me :).

Lord Solar Plexus
21-06-2010, 08:07
Hmm, okay, apparently I don't understand some of the trains of thoughts going on here. Every army book has something that is rare. The Steam Tank is rare. Why should it be removed? The Empire uses the things in battle, so the suggestion to make them display pieces in a museum only is very, very odd. If at all, it should be made better. You could then even keep the enormous price tag as one deterrent to take it too often or too many. While the Empire isn't that bad, I think it does need some help against some of the things that cropped up after it.

Secondly, foot knights. Is the wish to have such a unit motivated by fluff or by historical precedent? I really don't see how they would be useful without being a simple copy of Great Swords. Naturally one could merge the two and make a customizable knight unit that could be given GW but still.

maze ironheart
21-06-2010, 10:18
Rules wise make the general more better like extra attack or weapon skill or a special rule like orders like the Impireial guard have in 40k.Model Wise a plastic grand templar master that comes with options that could make different orders.

phoenixguard09
21-06-2010, 10:18
Yes Lord Solar Plexus I wouldn't mind a customisable unit. I'm just thinking of a way to incorporate the old Reiksguard foot.

As it is the enormous price tag is not deterring people. So many take multi Steam Tank lists. Where I am it is regarded as the only way to win with Empire unless your opponent sucks really badly.

So making the Tank better while retaining the exorbitant price will not result in less people taking it.

Sorry if that sounded sarcastic. It wasn't supposed to. I just don't see your logic here.

Lord Solar Plexus
21-06-2010, 10:48
Well, I wouldn't really mind a customizable unit either but I just don't see its use. 3+ AS and S3 isn't impressive and we don't need yet another infantry unit. A new book must make the existing ones useful first and foremost or it is fail. Now I am not a game designer and as such find it difficult to be creative but many fan suggestions don't seem right. Also, GW managed such a feat with the Imperial Guard, statline of 3's, cannon fodder. When this fodder has half a dozen S7-8 attacks, a dozen armour ignoring attacks in combat, can buy re-rollable stubborn Ld 9 and chose to end it at its leisure, re-roll misses or whatnot, it becomes a very impressive unit.

I hear what you say about Stanks. I never thought they were that good. The new rules go quite a way to improve everything else. I am completely with you that we need a boost in general but 600 points buy you a lot of useful stuff.

darkstar
21-06-2010, 11:15
People keep complaining about Steam tanks being rare. Remind me again how many Arch-Lectors there are? A steam tank is purpose built to fight. An Arch-lector is in charge of a huge part of the church. What's he doing stomping goblins?

They're unlikely to make the steam tank, which they have spent many shiny pennies on that plastic mould for, unusable, or even significantly less usable.

phoenixguard09
21-06-2010, 12:11
People keep complaining about Steam tanks being rare. Remind me again how many Arch-Lectors there are? A steam tank is purpose built to fight. An Arch-lector is in charge of a huge part of the church. What's he doing stomping goblins?.

Well I did mention that Special Characters shouldn't be there either... Or is the Arch Lector the Lord choice Warrior Preist? In that case I agree with you. They should have at the least a 0-1 because there are only 2(?) I would actually be in favour of them becoming Special Characters and replacing them in the list with say Master Battle Priest or something. Same goes for Templar Grand Masters. I'd call em Marshals or something and have them as influential figures in the chapter house.



They're unlikely to make the steam tank, which they have spent many shiny pennies on that plastic mould for, unusable, or even significantly less usable.

Well they did the same with the Baneblade which can only be used in Apocalypse. If GW released something like Apocalypse with a big thing or two from each army, they would probably make a shedload.

Sorry for any mistakes I made, I'm tired and don't know all that much about Empire anyway. :D

Arkfatalis
21-06-2010, 13:02
Maybe give make a new unit/hero type called witch hunters.

Odin
21-06-2010, 13:21
-General needs a serious boost


He really doesn't. 100 points or so gets you a Ld9 general with a 1+ armour save - bargain. Doesn't take up a slot any more, so nothing to stop you taking another Lord as well.

A small boost might be good, but really he's fine.



Outriders - Removed. (2 handed gun on horse?)

Yes, plenty of people have used 2-handed guns on horses before. Just doesn't work well on the move (which is why they're move-or-fire).



Flaggelants - T4. 7pts each.


Why stop there? How about T6 and 2 points each?

Seriously, Flagellants are AWESOME in 8th edition. I wiped out an entire unit of 7 Black Knights in 1 turn with a medium-sized unit of Flagellants. The only survivor was a badly-mauled Vampire Lord.

Lord Solar Plexus
21-06-2010, 13:35
He really doesn't. 100 points or so gets you a Ld9 general with a 1+ armour save - bargain. Doesn't take up a slot any more, so nothing to stop you taking another Lord as well.

A small boost might be good, but really he's fine.

He does get a small boost from the new list of flags, banners and standards. The Empire banners are nearly all useless, or at least the ones <50 points. I still hear many players arguing that there is little reason to take a GotE, even if it means spending more points. As much as it pains me, we will have to wait for the FAQ on AL's and the Altar before we can say what is better.

vinush
21-06-2010, 14:24
Odin, what equipment do you give him to get him a 1+ AS?

I'd like my GotE to be on foot surrounded by his guards, not on a horse in the middle of the field (that's the role of the TGM, IMO)

THE \/ince

Odin
21-06-2010, 14:29
Odin, what equipment do you give him to get him a 1+ AS?

I'd like my GotE to be on foot surrounded by his guards, not on a horse in the middle of the field (that's the role of the TGM, IMO)

THE \/ince

Barded horse, full-plate and shield. Can still stick him in an infantry unit, but he's got the mobility to redeploy quickly if necessary.

Luisjoey
21-06-2010, 18:20
Great swords strike last but two attacks or save 3+

Voss
21-06-2010, 18:38
Great swords strike last but two attacks or save 3+

No. Nothing more in the game needs multiple attacks on their infantry. Nor do they need an even more amazing save. With a mere handful of exceptions 4+ is the limit for infantry, especially against shooting and close combat.

Baaltharus
21-06-2010, 19:12
Pikemen, upgrades to Empire generals (like Slaan powers but increasing ld range, cc or give unit perks like hatred) and also something along the lines of riflemen (jaegers-skirmishing handguns perhaps).

Halberdiers having access to heavy armour. Empire Knights being a bit more useful. Greatswords being better (cos there pretty limp just now).

ooglatjama
21-06-2010, 19:23
They should revamp DoW as part of the empire.

Phaedrus
21-06-2010, 19:23
Secondly, foot knights. Is the wish to have such a unit motivated by fluff or by historical precedent? I really don't see how they would be useful without being a simple copy of Great Swords. Naturally one could merge the two and make a customizable knight unit that could be given GW but still.

This desire is largely tied to pre 8th edition rules. If Great Swords were able to take shields (for an extra point or two a model) it would have greatly increased their versatility. They could serve as either a hammer or an anvil as the situation required: charging with greatweapons or receiving a charge with a 2+ AS.

In 8th edition, between the step up rule and the fact that having a hand weapon and shield no longer grants an additional armor bonus I imagine most people would opt for a lower save and str 5 attacks back rather than str 3 attacks.

That said, if they wish to give Greatswords the option to carry shields I have no problem with increasing the options available to me.

Lastly, I think the reason that so many people are requesting "dismounted knights" as a new unit rather than just giving greatswords shields is that once upon a time there was such a unit (4th or 5th edition I believe).

shelfunit.
21-06-2010, 19:29
Pikemen, upgrades to Empire generals (like Slaan powers but increasing ld range, cc or give unit perks like hatred) and also something along the lines of riflemen (jaegers-skirmishing handguns perhaps).

Increasing leadership above 9??? These are just men you know... the close combat boost, just take a GM, want hatred, take a warrior priest etc, etc There are other characters in the army that fulfil these roles, that's why they're there.


Halberdiers having access to heavy armour. Empire Knights being a bit more useful. Greatswords being better (cos there pretty limp just now).

Knights, yes, but not too useful, otherwise the brett players will want them for free. Greatswords are getting better, lots better as they can now strike back at the enemy.

EDIT: For the leadership, just saw you meant increasing the bubble - stick him on a Griffon or take KF.

loveless
21-06-2010, 19:48
1. Witch Hunter Character
2. Slight reworking of Prayers, just to match up to 8th edition magic
3. Reiksguard on Foot
4. Lower cost of Engineer and/or make him an upgrade for warmachines
5. Some further clockwork items - it's in much of the artwork, but is very limited in the army choices

Modelwise:
1. Update Knights
2. Plastic War Altar
3. Update Karl Franz on Deathclaw

Anton
21-06-2010, 21:59
Yeah, what happened to those new plastic knights? There was talk of new knights, but I haven't heard anything about it for a while.

soots
22-06-2010, 01:29
That would be cool.

Witch hunter hero - M4 WS6 BS5 S4 T4 W2 I5 A3 Ld8. Hatred. KB. 4+ ward vs magical. 75pts.

bluemage
22-06-2010, 01:40
I'd like them to add an angry mob core unit. Like farmers armed with pitchforks and torches who are angry that goblins and orcs and other nonsense invade in large numbers every year. Like a seasonal flood, and so they take up there pitchfork and go kill them some goblins.

They'd be something like WS2 S3 T3 Ld6, hatred, two handweapons or pitchforks that would count as halberds. And flaming attacks from all the torches. Maybe 4 points a model. Perhaps a thrown weapon attack, representing people throwing stones.

I think it would be great to show the population of the empire getting fed up with this grim, dark, gloom and doom setting that warhammer setting is full of. Now they're gonna take the fight to the enemy. There could be so many fun modeling options. Shame it won't happen.

Charistoph
22-06-2010, 03:44
Core units brought back down to 4-5 units:

State Troops: Your basic State Trooper, Halberdiers w/o halberds, just has light armor, shield, and hand weapon. Options include upgrading unit with halberds or spears.

Veterans Troops: Swordsmen that have weapon options to upgrade to halberds or spears. Like Dwarf Longbeards, 1:1 State Troops, can only be Independent or Parent Unit. General can add +1 to this list.

State Missiliers: State Troopers that get hand weapon and choice of crossbow or handgun.

Militia: Free Company with just a single hand weapon, upgrades include bows, skirmisher, and/or extra hand weapon.

Knights: Pretty much as they are now. Mechanics-wise, there is little problem with them. I can't remember if they can take a magic banner or not, but if they can't, most definitely they should now, 25 points for Core, 50 for Inner Circle.

Lord Solar Plexus
22-06-2010, 05:42
Thanks, Phaedrus, for the explanation! I can understand that motivation even though I would still rather have them increase the utility of existing choices before they spend time on nostalgia (I'm saying that without any negative undertones!).


I'd like them to add an angry mob core unit.

What purpose would they serve? We already have militia. I mean flaming attacks for 4 points would be nice but just like Flaggellants, they would probably die before they ever ge

Skywave
22-06-2010, 06:24
This desire is largely tied to pre 8th edition rules. If Great Swords were able to take shields (for an extra point or two a model) it would have greatly increased their versatility. They could serve as either a hammer or an anvil as the situation required: charging with greatweapons or receiving a charge with a 2+ AS.

In 8th edition, between the step up rule and the fact that having a hand weapon and shield no longer grants an additional armor bonus I imagine most people would opt for a lower save and str 5 attacks back rather than str 3 attacks.

That said, if they wish to give Greatswords the option to carry shields I have no problem with increasing the options available to me.

Lastly, I think the reason that so many people are requesting "dismounted knights" as a new unit rather than just giving greatswords shields is that once upon a time there was such a unit (4th or 5th edition I believe).

I think that now in 8th edition, if you have a "special" weapon (halberd, great weapon, extra hand weapon, etc) you are forced to use it, you can't decide to use your hand weapon and shield instead, so that would be of little use except if you face serious shooting.

It would need to be something like trade great sword for shield (or vice versa), yet I think Foot Knights shouldn't be Stubborn so would require another entry. Super "tank" infantry if probably the only kind we don't have, yet I don't think they are necessary.

With all this said, I think I would still love to see them back, as I have a nice unit of Reiksguards on foot :)

Gorbad Ironclaw
22-06-2010, 07:32
I don't actually think there needs to be a whole lot of changes to Empire. I think they get some quite neat options with the change to percentages because of there cheap character options and the like. That's also why the general really should be kept as cheap as possible. He doesn't need to be super awesome, he is much better if he is cheap.
With that being said making the Engineer usable in some way or another would be good, and the steamtank could probably need new rules as well. As simple as possible really, it doesn't need it's own set of special rules.

As far as infantry goes, Pikes would be interesting, as would some sort of skirmishers/reviewed archers. Not sure how the balance works out between the various state troopers and there use as main units and detachments, but that's the one thing I hope they can get right. Making them balanced and more a choice between what you want them to do rather than something being the best choice 95% of the time.

As far as specific lists for provinces and the like I'm not a big fan. A bit more description of what there standing armies are like and you can do it yourself. You don't need tons of special rules to do it. I much prefer generic lists to let people do what they want with it. If you want specific lists I think including them in battle/campaign books detailing specific events or army formations (kind a like how Battlefront does it) is a much better idea.

Odin
22-06-2010, 12:26
I'd like them to add an angry mob core unit. Like farmers armed with pitchforks and torches who are angry that goblins and orcs and other nonsense invade in large numbers every year. Like a seasonal flood, and so they take up there pitchfork and go kill them some goblins.

They'd be something like WS2 S3 T3 Ld6, hatred, two handweapons or pitchforks that would count as halberds. And flaming attacks from all the torches. Maybe 4 points a model. Perhaps a thrown weapon attack, representing people throwing stones.

I think it would be great to show the population of the empire getting fed up with this grim, dark, gloom and doom setting that warhammer setting is full of. Now they're gonna take the fight to the enemy. There could be so many fun modeling options. Shame it won't happen.

That's what I use Free Company for. Converting them up with the addition of scythes and pitchforks from the zombie sprues, and flaming torches and weird stull from the Flagellant sprues.

Trogdor
22-06-2010, 12:34
I would really like to see Pikemen included in the next edition, or failing that a recut State Trooper box without the barefoot soldier...
A nod in the direction of the Witch Hunters would be nice as well, some sort of Hero choice or perhaps a light infantry unit that operates very effectively against Undead or Daemonic foes.

MontyRogue
22-06-2010, 13:04
Core units brought back down to 4-5 units:

State Troops: Your basic State Trooper, Halberdiers w/o halberds, just has light armor, shield, and hand weapon. Options include upgrading unit with halberds or spears.

Veterans Troops: Swordsmen that have weapon options to upgrade to halberds or spears. Like Dwarf Longbeards, 1:1 State Troops, can only be Independent or Parent Unit. General can add +1 to this list.

State Missiliers: State Troopers that get hand weapon and choice of crossbow or handgun.

Militia: Free Company with just a single hand weapon, upgrades include bows, skirmisher, and/or extra hand weapon.

Knights: Pretty much as they are now. Mechanics-wise, there is little problem with them. I can't remember if they can take a magic banner or not, but if they can't, most definitely they should now, 25 points for Core, 50 for Inner Circle.

Great Ideas, I was thinking something similiar to this allowing the player to field the type of Imperial Army he/she wants.

A basic State Trooper/Humie should be 3pts each equiped with just a HW with stats that look like this:

M: 4 WS: 3 BS: 3 ST: 3 T: 3 I: 3 W: 1 A: 1 LD: 7

Allowing you to upgrade/customize each model/unit from there:

Equipment:
Extra HW: 1pt
Spear/Halberd: 1pt
Pike(Fight in +2 ranks):2pts
Great Weapon: 2pts
Sm. Shield (+1 AS): 1pt
Lg. Shield (+2 AS -1 I): 2pts
Light Armor: 1pt
Heavy Armor(cannot Skirmish): 2pts
FPA(cannot Scout/Skirmish, -1 I): 3pts
Bow: 1pt
Longbow: 3pts
Javelin (8" range no penalty for stand and shoot, thrown w/+1 rank): 1pt
Pistols(can take two): 3pts
Crossbow/Handgun(move or shoot): 4pts
Warhorse(fast cav if no shield/H. Armor or FPA): 6pts

Unit Upgrades:
Missiliers: (+1 BS):2pts
Veteran (can only be parent block, +1 WS +1 IN): 2pts
Skirmisher (no detachments or can only be a detachment, can only take light armor, shield, bows or javelins): 4pts
Scouts(no change other than 8th ed rules): 2pts

This does a few things:
1. Maintains current point costs for units.
2. It will allow empire to field heavy infantry.
3. Moves Special choices (GS and Pistoleros) to Core, trade off would be to make Knights Special choices (yes I just typed that).
4. It allows players to adjust their army based on their play-style.
5. Maintains balance

Example: Statie w/Spear/Sm. Shield/L. Armor/Longbow/Missilier/Vet = 13pts equals HE LSG WS/BS and Cost; but has less Mvmt, In, no ASF and only LD7)

"How is this balanced?" You may ask. Well, the idea is that every army/race has their own signature characteristics, I believe humans should be adaptable in game terms, and I think that allowing players to truly customize their armies will make both the table top and the metagame.

I understand that some(maybe many) people wouldn't be happy if a unit of Scouting, Skirmishing, Lightly Armored, Greatsward Wielding, Vetran Missilier Longbowmen getting put down on the table, (what are these "Shades" things you're talking aboot?) but they're 19pts each and they're humans.

So as I have illustrated above, this could work and be alot of fun. As long as people keep it in perspective, remembering that the only special rules to be attached to these units are the Militia or State Troops rules.

Thanks for reading!

Chiron
22-06-2010, 13:13
Slots altering compared to what Lords you take - Single unit of IC knights become Core when you take Grandmaster, Unit of Greatswords become Core with General, Archlector gets the Warrior Priest Flaggelants = core rule

Odin
22-06-2010, 13:17
I like the idea of a veteran infantry upgrade, but I do think all that customiseability is just unnecessary and not particularly fluffy.

Greatswords probably only need S4, and they'll be fine - the 8th edition rules give them a pretty decent boost overall.

If anything from the DoW list is added, I'd like it to be the Duellists. Would be ideal for representing Nordland mariners.

Chiron
22-06-2010, 13:18
Oh one thing I forgot to mention, all Knights to be I4 as it makes no sense for Swordsmen to have higher I than them

MontyRogue
22-06-2010, 13:28
I see what you're getting at Odin. But I think cutomising would be able to allow the more traditionalist to keep/build their armies around the fluff of thier pronvince (lightly armoured spearmen, huntsmen w/longbows for stirland for example) and also allow more direct equipping of forces similiar to what a rich, industrious province should be able to provide to their troops (FPA, Halberd Vets for Reikland or Heavily Armoured L. Shield Pikemen from the western provinces who adapted to Bretonnian Incursions for example).

Stumpy
22-06-2010, 13:57
Do lances give an initiative boost to knights in 8th? If not, yes give us I4! We shouldn't have knights charging slaves and get hit first. Its not about the damage, its absurd that a slave with a pointy rock gets to strike before a charging knight with a lance.

Voss
22-06-2010, 13:58
Oh one thing I forgot to mention, all Knights to be I4 as it makes no sense for Swordsmen to have higher I than them

Why not? Empire swordsmen are essentially duelists- they live and die by their reactions. Knights are guys in plate who stab people with saplings. Quick reactions are fairly low on the list after horsemanship, willing to be sweaty (all that metal is hot), and being able to hit a target with a long piece of wood.

Artinam
22-06-2010, 14:06
I don't know. Stabbing someone with a weapon almost twice the size of said swordsmen while charging (often in a unit) with the speed of Scooter/Moped makes it kind of hard to dodge and swing first as you have to go past the lance and a semi-frenzied warhose.

Chiron
22-06-2010, 14:10
Why not? Empire swordsmen are essentially duelists- they live and die by their reactions. Knights are guys in plate who stab people with saplings. Quick reactions are fairly low on the list after horsemanship, willing to be sweaty (all that metal is hot), and being able to hit a target with a long piece of wood.

Have you ever tried to hit things on horseback, it requires a great deal of skill. Plus Knights would train for war from a very young age in all manner of disciplines, wrestling, longsword, jousting, you name it. The myth of big clunky knights stomping around the battlefield is just that, a myth. Knights were badass in all kinds of ways.

And if the Swordsmen were duellists they wouldnt be ranked up like they are

yabbadabba
22-06-2010, 14:21
Return of pikes? From when? Auto Hit/Wound Helblaster? Wow - some of this is a little OTT. Oh, and why can't Priests join Flagellants?

In:
War Wagon
Different Knightly Orders with slight rules variations between the chapters.
Greatswords buff - maybe a specialist magic banner to allow to strike in 'I' order on charge
GS to have access to magic banners anyway
Halberdiers to 1+
EITHER buff detachments to make work in the new rules OR intrduce a roman style maniple fighting system. That would be possible as we will all be playing bigger games :D
Grand Battery option for Engineers/ Master Engineers.
Empire General to have "trait" upgrades ro allow slight regional variation in armies

Not:
Dwarves/Ogres
Pikes

Meh
Steam Tank change (liked the old rules personally)
Modelling changes

Chiron
22-06-2010, 14:27
Actually it'd be nice if Greatswords could just take a banner without having to take a general

Mike3791
22-06-2010, 14:31
A witch hunter hero or lord would be fun.

Seconded. Also there needs to be a reason to take the Empire General as right now the Archlector is better in every way, shape, and form.

Hrogoff the Destructor
22-06-2010, 15:23
1. Witchhunter character for sure
2. Allow WP to join flaggellants
3. Teutogen Guard and White Wolf upgrades for knights/greatswords/captains.
4. Have the empire civilian with the regimental mascot (ie bear) as a hero
5. Valten
6. At least 6 prayers
7. Something along the line of Darkstars proposed bardic abilities for the different heroes (let's face it, they could use a slight boost in some way that doesn't involve stats)

Phaedrus
22-06-2010, 15:40
I think that now in 8th edition, if you have a "special" weapon (halberd, great weapon, extra hand weapon, etc) you are forced to use it, you can't decide to use your hand weapon and shield instead, so that would be of little use except if you face serious shooting.

Interesting. That would negate any further use for Great Swords having shields, aside from helping with shooting.

They could, as you suggest, change the name from Great Swords to something like Elector's Guard and give them the option to take either the hand weapon and shield or the great weapon. I think that having Stubborn as a special rule is unproblematic. Frankly, given the new more ranks = stubborn rule unless we are facing off against Skaven or Goblins all of our infantry ought to be stubborn most of the time.

One thing that the talk of making Great Swords Str 4 reminded me of is that I would like to see the Teutogen Guard placed in the army book. As they were Knights of the White Wolf on foot you were able to make them inner circle, giving them Str 4. Granted their white wolf hammers counted as halberds rather than Great Weapons so they were still only Str 5 overall, but they didn't have to strike last.

Odin
22-06-2010, 15:51
Interesting. That would negate any further use for Great Swords having shields, aside from helping with shooting.

They could, as you suggest, change the name from Great Swords to something like Elector's Guard and give them the option to take either the hand weapon and shield or the great weapon. I think that having Stubborn as a special rule is unproblematic. Frankly, given the new more ranks = stubborn rule unless we are facing off against Skaven or Goblins all of our infantry ought to be stubborn most of the time.

One thing that the talk of making Great Swords Str 4 reminded me of is that I would like to see the Teutogen Guard placed in the army book. As they were Knights of the White Wolf on foot you were able to make them inner circle, giving them Str 4. Granted their white wolf hammers counted as halberds rather than Great Weapons so they were still only Str 5 overall, but they didn't have to strike last.


Teutogen Guard don't need to be in the book - you just use Greatswords.

Don't forget that at the time of the Middenheim list, White Wolves carried cavalry hammers, whereas now they carry great weapons again.

Putty
22-06-2010, 15:58
Return of pikes? From when? Auto Hit/Wound Helblaster? Wow - some of this is a little OTT. Oh, and why can't Priests join Flagellants?

But dude, the last Helblaster was an auto hit war machine.

And the damn thing blows up 50% of the time so why not?

bravey
22-06-2010, 16:03
NO MORE SKULLS! This is Empire, not chaos. Plus, make greatswords worth the cost in dollars.

Odin
22-06-2010, 16:09
But dude, the last Helblaster was an auto hit war machine.


Yes, and it was absolutely outrageous.

Damocles8
22-06-2010, 16:13
I'd like to see unique regiments, The Scarlet Guard, Scarlet Grays, The Death's Head Regiment, and room for so many more

Charistoph
22-06-2010, 16:20
NO MORE SKULLS! This is Empire, not chaos.

Skulls are the cross of the Empire, it represents Sigmar specifically, and Humanity in general. Asking Sigmarites to give up the skull is like asking Catholics to give up the cross.

That, and they would have to remodel the entire ine, with accomanying price hike.

Chiron
22-06-2010, 16:30
Skulls are the cross of the Empire, it represents Sigmar specifically, and Humanity in general. Asking Sigmarites to give up the skull is like asking Catholics to give up the cross.

That, and they would have to remodel the entire ine, with accomanying price hike.

Or they could just use the Hammer which is something Sigmar spent a lot of time with... or the comet

But no, its Skullz, skulls on the buildings, skulls on the banners and then skulls on the clothes

Charistoph
22-06-2010, 16:47
Or they could just use the Hammer which is something Sigmar spent a lot of time with... or the comet

But no, its Skullz, skulls on the buildings, skulls on the banners and then skulls on the clothes

Actually, they do, much like some Chrstian denominations use the fish as well as the cross, or Mary or the Virgin of Guadalupe. But in the end the skull, like the cross, takes prominence.

Religion created by men doesn't make sense.

Chiron
22-06-2010, 16:57
Religion created by GW however does, and skullz are cool and appeal to teenagers

Templar47
22-06-2010, 20:56
The only thing I would like to see fixed would be:

*Make our State Troops look more organized and professional and fix the models in general (aka cod pieces, legs, etc). Or better yet, just bring back the 6th edition State Troop models since they look a lot more better then then new ones in my opinion.

*Give the Griffon mount an armor save or at least a ward save to protect it from shooting, or just for the heck of it make it T6 :D.

loveless
22-06-2010, 20:59
The skulls are actually somewhat representative of Morr as well. Since he's going to be the nice guy that heralds you into the afterlife, you'd best show him proper respect if you're working a job where the next mission is likely to be your last.

That over-the-top, impractical look is something that GW obviously wants in their Imperial humans. If you don't want skulls on your humans...well, I'm guessing GW is just going to tell you to go play Bretonnia :p

Mike3791
22-06-2010, 21:05
2) foot knights

Isn't that basically what greatswords are? (modelwise anyway)

Chiron
22-06-2010, 22:18
Isn't that basically what greatswords are? (modelwise anyway)

Pretty much, a lot of the models people want can be easily made using the current Codex, want a Witch Hunter? Use the Warrior Priests stats and give him Burning Head ring/Volans to represent his holy fire or whatever. Want to use Teutogen Guard? Use Greatsword stats.

loveless
22-06-2010, 22:36
Pretty much, a lot of the models people want can be easily made using the current Codex, want a Witch Hunter? Use the Warrior Priests stats and give him Burning Head ring/Volans to represent his holy fire or whatever. Want to use Teutogen Guard? Use Greatsword stats.

I'll give you the Teutogen Guard - they really only need to "come back" if they bring back Wolf Hammers, in which case they could still be the same entry.

A Witch Hunter is not the same as a Warrior Priest, however. Effectively, a Witch Hunter would be closer to a Captain/General, lightly armored, hand weapon and pistol standard. Options would be included to make him effective against Wizards, Undead, Daemons, or Beastmen, with the potential to "equip" (a) core unit(s) with appropriate tools for the job.

He could alternatively use something like the Hidden rules for assassins (DE and Skaven) since Witch Hunters have been known to disguise themselves as members of their quarry before striking.

Witch Hunters are typically equipped with appropriately blessed weapons, as well as tools to deal with mundane cohorts of their prey. For instance, the pistols employed by Witch Hunters are booby-trapped to prevent an opponent from using it against them. The long cloaks of Witch Hunters have weights at the bottom hem to allow it to be used as a weapon in combat.

Reading through the Witch Hunter's Handbook really paints the hunters as something that isn't accurately portrayed by anything in the current Empire book.

Chiron
22-06-2010, 22:41
A General or a Hero then, with a pistol and give him some neat magic weapons

loveless
22-06-2010, 22:45
A General or a Hero then, with a pistol and give him some neat magic weapons

Which is exactly what several Witch Hunter fans do :p I had one to accompany my Arch Lector back when the book came out.

It's still a stand-in, though, and Witch Hunters are a relatively prominent part of the Empire background. It would be nice to see some special rules (and models) for them, since they're more than just a guy with a pistol and a handweapon.

Phaedrus
22-06-2010, 23:34
Teutogen Guard don't need to be in the book - you just use Greatswords.

Don't forget that at the time of the Middenheim list, White Wolves carried cavalry hammers, whereas now they carry great weapons again.

Yes, a fact that has made them all but unused in 7th ed.

And yes, I am aware that, at the moment, Teutogens = Greatswords. However, I think my point is that it would be nice, not imperative, but nice to have them disentangle the Teutogens them from their current predicament. To recreate them as they were rather than being a merely aesthetic choice. I think this is a similar sentiment to one a number of other people have expressed: having slight modifications to stats or a special rule for armies from different Electorates. This was, after all, what the Middenheim list did.

Again, it isn't the first thing I would change. The first thing I would change would be to make the Engineer BS 5.

Chiron
22-06-2010, 23:35
It would be nice to see some special rules (and models) for them, since they're more than just a guy with a pistol and a handweapon.

But thats what they are, besides which they shouldnt really be part of an army in the first place. The whole point is that they work alone so they dont need an army to back them up, they follow in the armies wake or call it in when they uncover a big problem

loveless
22-06-2010, 23:38
But thats what they are, besides which they shouldnt really be part of an army in the first place. The whole point is that they work alone so they dont need an army to back them up, they follow in the armies wake or call it in when they uncover a big problem

Which could very well support the "Hidden" rule.

Besides that, though - what's to say that the current battle being played isn't the result of the Hunter calling in the army after uncovering a "big problem"?

Chiron
23-06-2010, 00:34
Each to there own I suppose, I just dont see the need for an entire new hero that can be represented by what already exists and who functionally will still be a hero. We've no need for Assassins in the Empire army, thats what Cannons are for.

Hell I was happy playing an Estalian Duellist in WAR using the WH class, he was fun

Aluinn
23-06-2010, 02:30
There are some ideas that I like in this thread, but all the calls for brutally cutting things out of the army are at the very least pretty unrealistic if you ask me. I'll try to address what's been mentioned so far, since I don't really have any brand new ideas :):

- The ability to make any State Troops WS4/I4 for a cost would be fine with me, but it should probably be 2-3 points, seeing as Swordsmen would be by far the worst choice if everything else had their stats but upgraded weapons for the same cost.

- I'd also be okay with province traits, but it's unlikely given that GW seems to have a firm policy against alternate lists lately. For character bonuses, don't we have them already?

General grants State Troops a magic banner: I think this one is very nice and highly underestimated, even if I just normally use War Banner. It saves me from having to take a magic banner on the BSB so I can make him survivable with items. The new 8th Ed. common banners make it even better.

Arch Lector and Warrior Priests allow a unit of Flagellants as Core: Going from Rare to Core is a pretty big deal, even if Rares aren't quite so limited in 8th. As Flagellants are also regarded as being a decent value, this seems like a substantial bonus.

Grand Master makes a unit of knights ItP: Loses some value with the new edition but is still not worthless by any means. As the best fighty Lord, it's probably fine for him to have a slightly less useful effect than the others.

- The Arch-Lector just needs to be renamed to High Priest of Sigmar or something. It is admittedly a problem that there are only two of them in the Empire and you can actually now take more than that in an army, but usually the best solution to a fluff problem is a fluff one.

- As for the Steam Tank, I don't think anyone can reasonably expect GW to outright remove a unit that they have gone to the trouble to make a model for and which many players have gone to the trouble of buying and painting, so, although Steam Tanks should certainly be very rare, we'll probably have to settle for them being a Rare choice. (Okay, it has been done, but not without a legitimate 'counts-as' alternative for using the model).

- Reiksguard on foot (or just generic knights on foot) making a return would be neat. They could be rolled together with Greatswords, but, ah, you can't have Greatswords without greatswords, so a new name is warranted even if the stats are quite similar. They could also gain all the other benefits of being knights (becoming ItP with a GM [also optionally on foot, of course] and being upgradeable to S4), which would seem out of place on Greatswords. Different rules for the Orders, both for foot knights and the current knights, would be easy to do and fun, also.

- Oh, and finally, Witch Hunters: I think the way they turned out in WAR is a little odd and seems to have been the result of a need for them to have a unique role in that game, but they could be quite different on the tabletop. I'd agree that representing them with assassin-type rules is off, but they could do other things, such as being resistant to magic, good at killing mages (and demons, and undead, possibly), and just being a high-damage-output but fragile guy to put in the front ranks. They aren't necessary mechanics-wise, IMO, but the fact that they aren't in the army book in spite of their prominence in a lot of fluff is glaring, and as an archetype they fit very nicely with the flavor of Empire background.

ftayl5
23-06-2010, 09:43
Yep less skulls, less KF symbols. Genrally less detail on the state troops, why does each guy need his own little hourglass, book or bit of parchment? It's quite annoying to have to spend that much time on a 5pt model of which you need HUNDREDS! And then your 20pt Knight has like no detail at all!

Engineer as a useful choice. All state troops (not militia) WS 4, swordsmen still get more initiative though, this would make the halberd and spear more viable choices.

Archers and Hunstmen can upgrade to longbows and huntsmen have BS 4

Knights are fine to me -new models would be nice though. Greatswords need something extra as stubborn has been changed.

Would LOVE a witch hunter. Give him some holy water or something and a stake, all wounds on vampires become D6 wounds or something. Make it so he can hide in a militia unit, he'd blend in well. Give him some dogs too maybe, like hunter sabretusks

A warrior priest of Ulric would be cool

loveless
23-06-2010, 14:38
Yep less skulls, less KF symbols. Genrally less detail on the state troops, why does each guy need his own little hourglass, book or bit of parchment? It's quite annoying to have to spend that much time on a 5pt model of which you need HUNDREDS! And then your 20pt Knight has like no detail at all!

Yeah, this needs said again.

Also, is it just me or do the Core State Troops seem to have more bling than the Greatswords?

Swordsmen are just painful things to paint when there's a whole bloody table full of them waiting for a brush.

Baaltharus
23-06-2010, 19:24
Return of pikes? From when? Auto Hit/Wound Helblaster? Wow - some of this is a little OTT. Oh, and why can't Priests join Flagellants?

Not:
Dwarves/Ogres
Pikes

Why not Pikes? They fit the background perfectly and they look awesome!

yabbadabba
23-06-2010, 19:35
Why not Pikes? They fit the background perfectly and they look awesome! a) They are not part of the Empire Background,
b) Pikes are one of the defining aspects of the Dogs of War. Include them and you take away another reason for having DoW
c) Adding Pikes to an Empire army might seriously unbalance the book - even with appropriate points cost
d) Once Empire have pikes what is there to stop others - Chaos Warriors with pikes? Ogres with Pikes?
e) Empire don't need pikes
f) Empire need Halberdiers to be an acceptable core main choice for the army - with pikes there is no hope.

grumbaki
23-06-2010, 20:07
Oddly enough, alot of Empire fluff has them using pikes, so that isn't the issue there. And wouldn't Empire with pikes be the closest thing DoW players could reasonably expect?

I mean, then you'd have a human army with pikemen, crossbowmen, cannons, the ability to take mercenary ogres, light and heavy cavalry and you can easily make a 'paymaster's guard' with greatswords. It seems like a win-win situation to me.

Chiron
23-06-2010, 20:10
Thinking more about the Witch Hunter hero I believe the best approach is to just put some extra Magic Items that do damage to Undead/Deamons in the list rather than a new hero.

Sigurds Stake - All hits vs Undead do D3 wounds (30pts)

Wilfreds Witchhunter Cap - Bearer and the unit he is with is assumed to pass any LD tests caused by Undead (50pts)

Lastly... bring back the Halfling Hot Pot and make it do flaming attacks, I will do *anything* to see the Moots best weapon back in the army list

Baaltharus
23-06-2010, 20:19
a) They are not part of the Empire Background,
b) Pikes are one of the defining aspects of the Dogs of War. Include them and you take away another reason for having DoW
c) Adding Pikes to an Empire army might seriously unbalance the book - even with appropriate points cost
d) Once Empire have pikes what is there to stop others - Chaos Warriors with pikes? Ogres with Pikes?
e) Empire don't need pikes
f) Empire need Halberdiers to be an acceptable core main choice for the army - with pikes there is no hope.

a) Pikes ARE part of the Empires background.
b) DoW aren't really an army, let them lie.
c) In what way? Pikes have no rules under 8th edition so your point is mute.
d) The same thing that stops Empire getting repeater bolt throwers? Its an army specific weapon?!
e) No, perhaps they don't but they probably don't need repeater handguns but there awesome anyway!
f) Halberdiers have gone from being useless to actually ok under 8th edition if fielded as a horde. How pikemen might fit into army theme/build is anyones guess.

yabbadabba
23-06-2010, 20:21
Oddly enough, alot of Empire fluff has them using pikes, so that isn't the issue there. And wouldn't Empire with pikes be the closest thing DoW players could reasonably expect?

I mean, then you'd have a human army with pikemen, crossbowmen, cannons, the ability to take mercenary ogres, light and heavy cavalry and you can easily make a 'paymaster's guard' with greatswords. It seems like a win-win situation to me. Or you could have a DoW army list and the ability of many armies to take advantage of that.

loveless
23-06-2010, 20:24
Honestly, the further away the Hot Pot stays from the Empire Army Book the better.

If we need comedy units, they should likely come in the form of Engineering inventions and such.

"Halflings shun the use of black powder, confident in the ability of steaming hot soup to do as much damage."

*twitch*

Let's just give them to the Dogs of War...

...I don't even necessarily mean the mercenary army. I'm fine with giving the halflings to a pack of hungry mabari as well.

yabbadabba
23-06-2010, 20:31
a) Pikes ARE part of the Empires background.
b) DoW aren't really an army, let them lie.
c) In what way? Pikes have no rules under 8th edition so your point is mute.
d) The same thing that stops Empire getting repeater bolt throwers? Its an army specific weapon?!
e) No, perhaps they don't but they probably don't need repeater handguns but there awesome anyway!
f) Halberdiers have gone from being useless to actually ok under 8th edition if fielded as a horde. How pikemen might fit into army theme/build is anyones guess.
a) Where? They have not been a part of any Empire army book I have ever owned, short of the old, old days where you could had a generic weapons list for most armies. And Greater Death Runes.
b) People still moan about Squats. GW haven't made a model for those in a long time. DoW could be, and should be different.
c) No its not. The Empire army has evolved well, and is one of the more balanced armies out there. Adding pikes could massively change the balance and would need extensive playtesting. It ain't broke, so doesn't need fixing.
d) and that army is DoW which gives the Warhammer world far more clour and depth than just absorbing it all into any army list elsewhere.
e) true but that doesn't counter the point that Empire don't need them
f) I'll agree with you when I have the rules and played a few games. Until then its just speculation until anyone plays a few games.

I don't mind the whole "do it cos its cool" but just not for Empire and pikes - I can't see the need for it.

Chiron
23-06-2010, 20:38
Honestly, the further away the Hot Pot stays from the Empire Army Book the better.

If we need comedy units, they should likely come in the form of Engineering inventions and such.

I'll take Soup over a Steam Horse or a Pigeon Bomb

loveless
23-06-2010, 20:59
I'll take Soup over a Steam Horse or a Pigeon Bomb

I...will not.

The steam horse and pigeon bombs at least invoke some of the wild clockwork-powered artwork of the Empire.

I don't think I've seen any Empire art that shows the soldiers attacking their opponents with food.

Chiron
23-06-2010, 20:59
You really need to read the short story in the 4th ed(?) book about the invention of the Hot Pot

loveless
23-06-2010, 21:12
You really need to read the short story in the 4th ed(?) book about the invention of the Hot Pot

If it's a singular instance of a use, however, it seems a bit pointless. Clockwork and bizarre inventions are pretty common in Empire background and art, ergo such things should be included. As such, we have repeating handguns, steam tanks, helblasters, etc. etc.

If the hot pot exists because of a piece of fiction specifically written to include it, followed by it never being referenced or used again, it doesn't make a lot of sense.

I don't remember if it's 4th edition or not for the Hot Pot - I'll have to see if I can check later on - but I'll give it a look if I have it handy.

That being said, I think the loss of Halflings is probably a good thing - it allows the developers to focus more on the human side of things. Put in Halfings again and how long is it before you have to add in Imperial Ogres, Empire-dwelling Dwarfs, and whatever other races are skulking about the Empire?

Maybe just add in an option for captains:
May be a Halfling (-xx points). Halflings use the following statline [insert statline].

Maybe an option for a unit:
Standard of the Moot (xx points): Members of this unit are Halflings.

:p

Chiron
23-06-2010, 21:15
Maybe just add in an option for captains:
May be a Halfling (-xx points). Halflings use the following statline [insert statline].

Maybe an option for a unit:
Standard of the Moot (xx points): Members of this unit are Halflings.

:p

Oh I see what you did there, but its entirely different kettle of fish to Witch Hunters and more to the point, already existed in the army at one pont

Voss
23-06-2010, 21:20
If it's a singular instance of a use, however, it seems a bit pointless. Clockwork and bizarre inventions are pretty common in Empire background and art, ergo such things should be included.


Only recently. To my eyes, they're just as stupid and inane as the hotpot.
GoofyTech didn't need to happen, and its not too late to strip it back out.

loveless
23-06-2010, 21:26
Oh I see what you did there, but its entirely different kettle of fish to Witch Hunters and more to the point, already existed in the army at one pont

I actually have no problem with them being in the army - I don't have to take them, naturally. I just don't want them taking up rules space and development time that could be spent on things like War Wagons, Knightly Orders, or, yes, Witch Hunters.

I'm willing to wager that when asked to describe the Empire, Halflings are pretty low on the list of what most people would mention. Witch Hunters are likely down pretty far on the list as well, but given several novels, a handbook, and inclusion in the MMO, I'm betting they make many of the lists.

In an ideal world, the Empire would get everything it had back in 4th or 5th edition (I don't recall when the switch to "minimal inclusion" happened), plus a handful of new items and options.

In fact, looking at recent trends, it's probably a fair bet that anything that's "missing" will be headed back, and there will likely be a few new inclusions to boot. It should be a good enough mixture to bring back the veterans who remember the "good old days", while also catering to fans of the fiction and external game properties (WAR, WHFRPG, etc.)

Duc Jehan
23-06-2010, 21:34
a) Where? They have not been a part of any Empire army book I have ever owned, short of the old, old days where you could had a generic weapons list for most armies. And Greater Death Runes.


There are references to pikes both in Sigmar's Heirs (Averland Pikemen) and The Empire at War (there's a mention of a pike square derived from an ancient phalanx formation).

And I think pikes are way better than an armoured tank roaming the batlefield.

Dvnjhn
23-06-2010, 21:36
I know this is kind of sad but I would love to see hunting hounds with handlers. Nothing major, work a bit like Skaven rats - but make them more expensive (with scout).

Just with the Empire being all aristocratic and all, after horses what do crats love? Big mastiff hunting hounds WS3 S3 T3 2/3 attacks per base with no save.

kaintxu
23-06-2010, 21:40
1) return of war wagons
2) foot knights
3) redo steam tank (currently its the most overcosted rare choice)
4) volley gun: no rolls to hit. auto wound
5) plastic resculpted war altar
6) prayers of sigmar needs to be redone because of the new bound spell rules.

Foot knights? you have the great sword guys .

Redoing stem tank is ok but still i dont think its overcoster. an ancient stegadon is 275 and takes quite less to kill it, moves less, shoots less.... Yea steam tank shoul be redone making it easier to kill.

HAHAHAHHA volley gun no roll to hit auto wound? I want a 2+ ward for my thister then, Stop wishlisting be real.

5 and 6 im ok with them

yabbadabba
23-06-2010, 21:51
There are references to pikes both in Sigmar's Heirs (Averland Pikemen) and The Empire at War (there's a mention of a pike square derived from an ancient phalanx formation). A mention in a black library book doesn't make Pikes the core of the Empire army. More like Hussein's WMD's


I think pikes are way better than an armoured tank roaming the batlefield. Which has far more pedigree and actual history in the empire army list than Pikes.

As I said, by adopting pikes into the Empire army you change the synergy of the army, and remove on more reason for bringing back DoW. These two reasons alone outweigh any reason so far presented for including them.

The more I think about it, the more I am beginning to like the option of allowing greater internal interconnectedness in the army. For instance, an engineer upgrade to master engineer allows war machine batteries and access to the steam tank. Including a wizard lord could allow access to acolytes which could influence the dice roles in magic. However they could replace unit champions.
You get the idea.

poboom
23-06-2010, 21:54
Oh I'd really love to see the halflings make a comeback. They were the reason I started playing Warhammer and the reason I picked THE EMPIRE. The old minis had so much charm and personality. And the halfling archers were BS4 I believe and could frollic around in forests unhindered, how nice. Also the Hot Pot is ace and I really should buy it even though it has no "use" to me apart from being awesome and surely being a blast to paint.

I thought the War Wagon was really cool back in the day but I cant say I miss it that much now. It was just a wagon with 6 goofballs in it with different weapons that didnt really make it clear if it was meant for H2H or shooting. It's a novel idea if nothing else.

And I really dont see the point in bringing pikes into THE EMPIRE, dont they have the halberd as their weapon of choice? Halberds are cooler than pikes anyway since they're both an axe and a pike. Cant beat that!

Aluinn
23-06-2010, 22:13
Only recently. To my eyes, they're just as stupid and inane as the hotpot.
GoofyTech didn't need to happen, and its not too late to strip it back out.

I don't think anything that is actually in the current book is particularly goofy except for the clockwork horse (which actually doesn't look goofy, but this is its own problem in that it looks far too advanced). The volley gun is just unreliable, there's nothing crazy about the concept, and it would work perfectly fine IRL; it's pretty much just nine small cannon that fire in groups of three. Rockets are rockets, they exist. Heck, even pigeon bombs are historical, weirdly enough.

Now, the steam tank is kinda goofy, albeit less than the mechanical horse, however, it has been a part of the army for as long as I can remember in some form or other (alongside the War Wagon, which could make a comeback if GW has the resources to make a model for it), so I don't think you can make a 'good old days' argument about that.

I will agree with you 100% that the hot pot is dumb, though. It's a giant slingshot that throws a pot of stew, 'nuff said. This doesn't mean no Halflings; Halflings with bows are fine, they just need to somehow fill a different rules niche than human archers. Maybe they could get the Scout and move-through-cover rules, and archers could just be skirmishers, or vice versa. This is unless The Moot is retconned out of existence and its elder is no longer an elector of the Empire, but as it stands, Halflings are part of the Empire.

In the meantime, if you guys really want Halflings, there's nothing wrong with fielding them as Huntsmen.

Voss
24-06-2010, 00:47
so I don't think you can make a 'good old days' argument about that.


I can remember the good old days when the empire didn't have steam tanks, bretonnians had cannons and high elves had Sea Elf Wardancers, so I suspect I can.

More importantly, the current incarnation of the Empire book introduced a lot of new and wacky concepts, just as many in the background as in the army list itself, to the point that it doesn't resemble 'The Empire' anymore. Certainly not the one that existed in the background of older books, novels, WHFRP sourcebooks or anything else I was familiar with.

Instead of a land that is edging its way into gunpowder technology and a semi-renaissance social order, its a land where Leonardo DaVinci has gone mad, forced everyone into swiss guard outfits, repainted all the scenery and apparently switched out armories and marketplaces throughout the land with something from the pages of Girl Genius.

The current book actually mad me through up my hands in disgust and box all my empire stuff up- the flavor and feel of the army is just that horrid.

loveless
24-06-2010, 04:51
Instead of a land that is edging its way into gunpowder technology and a semi-renaissance social order, its a land where Leonardo DaVinci has gone mad, forced everyone into swiss guard outfits, repainted all the scenery and apparently switched out armories and marketplaces throughout the land with something from the pages of Girl Genius.

You're right.

It went from boring to awesome. :D

_dandaman_
24-06-2010, 05:02
How about taking a priest lets you take flaggelants as core? Lets you do really fun (weak but fun) lists with the flagellant horde. 7 points sounds right, would just be a crazy fun list.

Templar47
24-06-2010, 05:33
To be honest, the Empire really dont need that much changed. All I would like to see is:

*Make the Hellblaster like the Dwarf Organ Gun, auto hits but you roll to wound.

*A save or at least some type of armor for the Griffon Mount

*Better prayers for the Warrior Priests, and since he's a priest, his weapon should count as a magical, and gets a bonus when fighting unholy armies, such as Undead, Tomb Kings, Undead, Skaven, etc.

Thats all I can really think of for now, except bring back the older, 6th edition empire models because the new ones look like crap in my opinion.

Voss
24-06-2010, 05:48
You're right.

It went from boring to awesome. :D

I suppose its a matter of taste.
I prefer believably interesting to weird for the sake of weird.

Lord Solar Plexus
24-06-2010, 05:58
There is no reason not to include pikes. Okay, they are just another weak choice of troops but they look good. I gather there are already many people out there already using the models for spearmen.

The fluff isn't really important. GW changes it all the time, so apparently they do not care themselves. There simply isn't a standard version, so it's no reason not to include something new.



How about taking a priest lets you take flaggelants as core?


How about taking a Captain on horseback?

Charistoph
24-06-2010, 07:44
can't you just DoW hire it?

I don't think so. DoW has only been in 6th Edition Army Books and previous. I can't remember if it's in 7th Empire or not off the top of my head, but I don't think so.

Baaltharus
24-06-2010, 07:51
a) Where? They have not been a part of any Empire army book I have ever owned, short of the old, old days where you could had a generic weapons list for most armies. And Greater Death Runes.
b) People still moan about Squats. GW haven't made a model for those in a long time. DoW could be, and should be different.
c) No its not. The Empire army has evolved well, and is one of the more balanced armies out there. Adding pikes could massively change the balance and would need extensive playtesting. It ain't broke, so doesn't need fixing.
d) and that army is DoW which gives the Warhammer world far more clour and depth than just absorbing it all into any army list elsewhere.
e) true but that doesn't counter the point that Empire don't need them
f) I'll agree with you when I have the rules and played a few games. Until then its just speculation until anyone plays a few games.

I don't mind the whole "do it cos its cool" but just not for Empire and pikes - I can't see the need for it.

a) If you own the present army book there is reference to them in there. People have already mentioned some books with Pikes and I'll add one more in the form of 'riders of the dead'.
b) The DoW army is over, people may moan but like squats theres nothing that can be done.
c) Adding anything to an army changes the game balance but new editions of army books come out all the time changing the dynamic so again the point holds little water. You need rules and then playtesting before you can scream 'broken'.
d) I disagree, the DoW army is a horrible melting pot of racial diversity which doesn't belong in the fantasy universe.
e) Just because an army doesn't need something doesn't mean it shouldn't have it. Do chaos warriors 'need' halberds? Do Dark Elfs 'need' assasins? Probably not but there cool.

I invoke the rule of cool, first and foremost!

Middenmordheimer
24-06-2010, 09:30
How about the option to make your troops not like they crawled straight outta a sigmars @ss abit of variety to make them look they can be from middenheim ostland or any other province that dosnt soley worship sigmar foot knights would be awesome too and halflings and dwarfs and possibly even make every elector count so they can actually lead your armies

Middenmordheimer
24-06-2010, 09:49
How about the option to make your troops not like they crawled straight outta a sigmars @ss abit of variety to make them look they can be from middenheim ostland or any other province that dosnt soley worship sigmar foot knights would be awesome too and halflings and dwarfs and possibly even make every elector count so they can actually lead your armies

Lord Solar Plexus
24-06-2010, 10:24
I didn't get the middle part, could you repeat that please?

Middenmordheimer
24-06-2010, 11:04
yeah stupid phone posted it 3 times i guess thats what u get for posting of warhammer forums when your supposed to be working lol. But seriously it would be awesome to see a priest of taal or plastic teutogen guard kit instead of paying 100 dollars plus if you want second hand ones on ebay.