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View Full Version : So why use cavalry units in 8th ed?



Jack of Blades
20-06-2010, 22:56
I just want to know what you guys are gonna use stuff like Black Knights etc. for and general theory on why you'd wanna use these units in 8th ed?

Jericho
20-06-2010, 23:43
The quick and easy answer is that you're not just going to be facing big infantry blocks on the field all the time ... there will be monsters, war machines, other cavalry, etc. which cav can engage and kill more easily than infantry. With Ogre type units getting a boost I can see knights being a good way to take a bite out of them before they devour your infantry.

The other simple answer is that they will be able to provide some flanking bonuses and still produce a large number of kills on the charge in combat. The ability to thin out the numbers of your enemy's formations will be important to strip away their stubbornness, and sheer volume of kills will accomplish that.

No doubt cavalry will be a bit less common than before, but they'll still have uses.

Vsurma
21-06-2010, 08:01
Anything that gets a 2+ save after the enemies hits is still going to be winning combat.

Static CR res is capped at 4 (before funny banners etc), cav are still more likely to get the charge bringing the total down to 3 before combat.

Can 6 chaos knights get 3 kills over the enemy? yep
Will they win combat? yep
Will the enemy run.....maybe

They are still fast so can get to flanks and rears a lot faster.

tricker53
21-06-2010, 10:02
in order to actually count for a flank they need atleast 10 models. for blood knights this is practically out of the question, chaos knights, on the ridiculously expensive side as well, considering the 2nd rank only get 1 attack per rider and no mount attacks, etc.

but even so, since armour is rumoured to be capped at 1+ (tell me if im wrong) chaos knights now have the best armour possible in the game. what more reason do you need?

Eumerin
21-06-2010, 10:08
in order to actually count for a flank they need atleast 10 models. for blood knights this is practically out of the question, chaos knights, on the ridiculously expensive side as well, considering the 2nd rank only get 1 attack per rider and no mount attacks, etc.

but even so, since armour is rumoured to be capped at 1+ (tell me if im wrong) chaos knights now have the best armour possible in the game. what more reason do you need?

I could be mistaken, but iirc the two ranks is only needed if you're cancelling your opponent's ranks. My recollection is that you still get the basic +1 CR without having two ranks.

And yes, armor is now capped at 1+ (and still always automatically fails on a natural '1').

tricker53
21-06-2010, 10:14
+1 CR means buggerall in the long run; if youre not cancelling ranks, then the enemy will be stubborn.

with a single rank you pull +2 CR for charging a flank (+1 for charge, +1 for flank). add that 2nd rank and (against a 3 ranked enemy) you get an additional +4 on top of that (removing 3 ranks and +1 rank), and remove stubborn.

Eumerin
21-06-2010, 10:21
Your opponent is only stubborn if they outnumber you. Smack them in the front with an infantry brick and in the flank with a mobile cavalry force and you'll probably outnumber them even before you take into account all of the extra casualties that you caused with the cavalry charge.

Remember - cavalry may not be quite as powerful as they were in 7th edition, but they will still kill lots of models on the charge. Combined arms tactics - with coordination between your mounted models and your foot models - is the way to go if you can arrange it. And your heavy cavalry can do just fine both in brushing your opponent's cavalry out of the way (particularly if you have a higher I value than they do) and in taking out siege weapons once you've opened a hole in their line.

theorox
21-06-2010, 10:24
Meh. If i flankcharge your 30 infantry with my ten cavalry i win anyway. Even if it's boarboyz. Just don't singlecharge into the front of a ranked unit. You could do this in 7th and expect to win, but not now. That is a good thing really! Sheesh! :D

Getting around flanks, threatening EVERY other unit! THAT is what cavalry will be good for. My 30 guys are in combat with your 30 guys, they are evenly matched. When my cav charges your flank, suddenly i have the upper hand! For 250p or something, sure. But it's worth it if i can get your 200p unit out´of the game and roll up the line to hit your 350 p unit with combined charges.

Theo

Chaos257
21-06-2010, 10:38
Cause every1 will be using mass blocks of infantry... brets gonna have a field day.

Chaos257
21-06-2010, 10:49
6 chaos knights.. get roughly 12 hits and 10 wounds on say, a 40 man unit of halberdiers.

horses, 4 hits and say 3 wounds... saves will be negiligble.

thats 13 men dead on the charge

only 27 strike back
14 hits
7 wounds
lose 1 heavy cav
win combat by zillions
repeat
15 attack roughly 9 dead, they're down to 18 men, roughly 4 wound.. might not even do a casualtie. And you tie up a massive unit with high combat res. Chuck a hero in there and it is basically GG>

Vsurma
21-06-2010, 11:03
in order to actually count for a flank they need atleast 10 models. for blood knights this is practically out of the question, chaos knights, on the ridiculously expensive side as well, considering the 2nd rank only get 1 attack per rider and no mount attacks, etc.

but even so, since armour is rumoured to be capped at 1+ (tell me if im wrong) chaos knights now have the best armour possible in the game. what more reason do you need?

The flank gives you +1 CR and negates enemy ranks, well its 4 cr which is nice, but your 1+ save knights are going to be doing a whole lot of dying so you can just charge them and win on kills. Also you can combine your charge with something else to make up that 10 if you like.

flank + charge is already 2 CR, they will have 2 extra with full ranks and banner, knights should still win.

Sure they might be stubborn (which is no unbreakable, they still test!) but who cares, what's the worst that could happen, they get a flank on your 1+ save knights?

Knights want to win with actual kills rather than static CR, the charge and flank adding 2 will even the odds a great deal.

In short, cavalry are good at winning! killing! and running the enemy down (eventually) Though with all those buff and hex spells out there time will tell who is hurt the most by them.

Lord Solar Plexus
21-06-2010, 11:35
6 chaos knights.. get roughly 12 hits and 10 wounds on say, a 40 man unit of halberdiers.
...And you tie up a massive unit with high combat res. Chuck a hero in there and it is basically GG>

Oh yes, they will win eventually but if they're stuck for two turns I wonder who ties up whom. And if I chuck in a character as well and kill a few the odds are much better again.

Yrrdead
21-06-2010, 11:43
To start I play Vamps. For me cavalry hasn't changed that much.

Black Knights - Got a bit better combat-wise in 8th edition with the additional rank of attacks. Which means that they won't "bounce" nearly as much now . Unfortunately in the current 8th ed lists I've been writing (2250 & 2500) I will not be fielding these guys at all. Cavalry is generally weaker now and there are better places to put those points.

Blood Knights - Stay pretty much the same except baiting is pretty much gone. Still worth the points in my opinion. SwiftStrider rule keeps your charge range good and you still wreck shop. A unit of these is still going to win combats. The last game (8th) I got charged in the front by a unit of bulls (3x2) and in the rear by a slave giant. I still won handily. (Of course a steadfast unit is a bit harder to deal with .)

Basically elite cavalry still has a place , like always, you have to pick your battles intelligently. Single attack cavalry(core) got a little more killy on the charge with the additional rank of attacks. Unfortunately step up and steadfast outweigh those benefits resulting in a net reduction in the effectiveness of cavalry.

No worries though, just put those points into units that got better in 8th. Me personally , it will be put into Grave Guard with GW's.

Nocculum
21-06-2010, 12:33
Oddly enough gentlemen, there are other cavalry units asides Chaos Knights and Blood Knights I hope you've realised?

Yes, that's right, cavalry that has to work for it's supper and not simply 'bump and grind' into a unit to wipe it off the board.

Empire, Brettonnian, High Elf, Dark Elf, Tomb King, Wood Elf cavalry will be weakened, certainly, but historically and in terms of fluff, cavalry has never won battles on their own unless we're talking 400 in one charge.

Flank charging is the way to go, and advance guard, or softening the larger units up.

Off all the cavalry, I'd say Wild Riders are going to get the biggest boost, with the loss coming to Empire Knights and Brettonnian lances.

But this is all about adjustment, and not throwing tantrums.

Your hooves are safe, for now.

kramplarv
21-06-2010, 12:37
6 knights with mus for something around 130pts is a win for empire no matter the rule mechanics. :)

Chaos257
21-06-2010, 12:54
Oh yes, they will win eventually but if they're stuck for two turns I wonder who ties up whom. And if I chuck in a character as well and kill a few the odds are much better again.

in short... if my knights do get tied up... I reckon I would have won the game.

Lord Solar Plexus
21-06-2010, 13:11
in short... if my knights do get tied up... I reckon I would have won the game.

You speak in riddles.

---
Empire knights lose nothing. They have never ever won combats by charging the biggest unit frontally unless perhaps they were Inner Circle with several heroes and some luck. They will still contribute a few kills and a flank bonus when they flank charge, just as in 7th.

If you want to break ranks, they are affordable enough to field 10+. Now of course they will lose against certain opponents but that hasn't really changed.

Nocculum
21-06-2010, 13:13
Ste-up to the flank is a little much for cavalry to bear, though. Right?

Yrrdead
21-06-2010, 13:16
You do not get "Supportive Attacks" for your flanks and rears.

It is very similar to how spears work in 7th.

Free Spirit
21-06-2010, 13:19
They work great against trolls, warmachines, monsters, etc. I've noticed that they can't handle the big blocks very well, but with the bigger monsters getting a boost i expect to see more of those on the table (hell, i've been running a unit of 6 chaos trolls, where in 7th i'd never use them!).

Lord Solar Plexus
21-06-2010, 14:08
Ste-up to the flank is a little much for cavalry to bear, though. Right?

That very much depends on whom you are attacking. Do they have a higher Ini? What strength do they have etc.


You do not get "Supportive Attacks" for your flanks and rears.


He's talking about the step up rule, not supportive attacks. At least that's what he says...

Prince Sairion
21-06-2010, 17:30
Cavalry riders from the 2nd rank get to attack, not the mounts. So ten chaos knights (are you sure there's OTHER cavalry ;)) I would imagine would get full attacks for first rank, then 5 attacks from the 5 riders at the back.

For my two-penneth, I plan to still take small units of knights, don't see the point of buying an additional rank, then charge flanks if I can, you don't step up to the flank, so even stuck as they are, I'd hope my armour save/LD would tie up a far more expensive unit for a time.

Lord Inquisitor
21-06-2010, 17:47
I've been pondering this.

There are several uses for cavalry as I see it now, depending on the type.

1) Kick-**** nutter cavalry. Blood Knights, Khorne Knights, etc. These bad boys can beat the snot out of a ranked unit any day of the week as long as that unit isn't toting tin openers like great weapons. These units will be great for picking off unsupported enemy regiments - as long as you're not going to be flank charged, you smack 'em in the front and crunch them to death. You only need to cause 3 more casualties than they do, they'll fail their stubborn Ld sooner or later, particularly if they're outside the general's/BSB's bubble - or you just kill every last one of them.

Similarly KANC units can be used to flank enemy units that you charge with your infantry and rack up kills enough to reduce their ranks and break them.

2) Heavy cavalry. Empire Knights, Silver Helms, Brettonian knights. tough enough to take some punishment and able to do some damage on the charge. These guys can do one of two things - they can take multiple ranks (especially the Brettonians) and smash into the flanks of units to break their rank bonus - obviously best supported by line infantry. Conversely, however, I've been considering these units for "heroic charge" duty. They charge the enemy while the line infantry sneaks round to get a flank charge. The cavalry should win the combat turn 1 if they get the charge. If the enemy holds due to stubborn, then whether you knights live or die next turn, you should have the enemy unit pinned in position to be flank charged by your infantry.

3) Light cavalry. Fast cav with missile weapons will do much as before, harassing the enemy's flanks, march blocking if possible and shooting a lot.

Light cav that are earmarked for combat can either charge flanks (especially if they have multiple ranks), enemy skimishers and light units, or the "heroic charge" maneuver as above (although they're much less likely to actually survive this than heavy cav.)

jesters89
21-06-2010, 18:01
I'm fairly sure this is accurate, but I passed off the book to a friend a couple of days ago:

Cav claim the +1 for charging a flank, even without a second rank; however, they do not bust ranks unless they have 2 full ranks. That said, even with 2 full ranks, you do not get rid of the opponents steadfast rule unless you have more rank than the opposing unit.

I think Cav's primary focus will be charging flanks now... especially when you have an infantry unit to the front. You need to hit large ranked up units on the flank to minimize attacks back. Flanked enemies receive no supports on the flank, but I beleive they DO step up. If someone has a book handy this is worth checking.

The reason you need combined charges is to preven the infantry unit from reforming in subsequent rounds. Breaking enemies on the charge will be a little more difficult now due to the proliferation of stubborn. Regardless, cav still has a solid role to play against ranked infantry in addition to several other roles across the battlefield.

Sparowl
22-06-2010, 05:06
I'm fairly sure this is accurate, but I passed off the book to a friend a couple of days ago:

Cav claim the +1 for charging a flank, even without a second rank; however, they do not bust ranks unless they have 2 full ranks. That said, even with 2 full ranks, you do not get rid of the opponents steadfast rule unless you have more rank than the opposing unit.

Anyone, even one model, in the flank, gets +1 to res for flanking.

If you have 2 full ranks, you "disrupt" the enemy, and they have no ranks. Since Steadfast is based on having more ranks then the enemy, you cannot be steadfast while disrupted. So, 2 full ranks in the flank or rear means no steadfast stubborn.

alextroy
22-06-2010, 05:55
If you have 2 full ranks, you "disrupt" the enemy, and they have no ranks. Since Steadfast is based on having more ranks then the enemy, you cannot be steadfast while disrupted. So, 2 full ranks in the flank or rear means no steadfast stubborn.

The rules explicitly state the opposite. Disrupting Ranks has no effect on Steadfast.

Lord Solar Plexus
22-06-2010, 06:04
If you have 2 full ranks, you "disrupt" the enemy, and they have no ranks.

That is very clearly not the case. They lose their rank *bonus* but of course they still have ranks.

Cordantheman
24-06-2010, 13:33
Bretonnians are hardly effected by most of this seeing as they easily get ranks, easily survive attacks from light infantry, easily take characters in each unit, easily get magic resist and lore of life, and easily out-move most units on the board.

ColShaw
24-06-2010, 14:21
It's worth noting that monsters and monster infantry don't get to Stomp and Thunderstomp cavalry, making them a LOT more likely to do well against, say, a Dragon than infantry will. Combined with the slight slowdown of flyers and a little loss of their maneuverability, and as pointed out in this month's WD, cavalry can trump monsters (ESPECIALLY non-flying ones).

Djekar
24-06-2010, 22:07
So then that brings up the question - what do monsters do?

If Cav > Monsters and Infantry > Cav, then Monsters > ???

I know this is a simplification of things.

Skyros
24-06-2010, 22:13
For everything I used them for in 7th, with the exception of slaughtering ranked infantry blocks by themselves.

Also note that even a single cavalryman charging into the flank is a flat +2 CR: +1 for charging and +1 for flank.

Deathwing
25-06-2010, 00:19
Bretonnians are hardly effected by most of this seeing as they easily get ranks, easily survive attacks from light infantry, easily take characters in each unit, easily get magic resist and lore of life, and easily out-move most units on the board.

Don't forget with the reduced frontage of the lance formation, there will be less infantry in base to base so less attacks back even with the extra rank (or two if horde infantry).

Lined up properly you should only get 3 in base to base so 6 attacks back for
regular infantry, 9 for hordes and 12 for spears (15 if high elves!). A standard ranked unit of knights would be facing 10/15/20 in the same situation

Though I'm not entirely sure how the MSU Bretonnian cavalry army will work out now with the bonuses to giant blocks of infantry. My entire army at the moment is built around 5-6 lances of 6 knights and some bowmen.

decker_cky
25-06-2010, 00:47
I think empire knights will be pretty awesome in larger blocks with a priest. Either S5 or S6 attacks from two ranks rerolling to hit will rip through a lot of units. You can make them white wolf and strike last but keep the strength through multiple rounds. Units of 14 or more models are well worth considering to use as a hammer.

HeroFox
25-06-2010, 01:03
Cavalry are, and still should be, the long-range support hammers they were designed to be. No longer should one deathstar unit of Knights crash through an entire army.

rocdocta
25-06-2010, 02:29
in order to actually count for a flank they need atleast 10 models. for blood knights this is practically out of the question, chaos knights, on the ridiculously expensive side as well, considering the 2nd rank only get 1 attack per rider and no mount attacks, etc.



if you get 10 (7 in front rank) blood knights into combat, the enemy may not have a unit left to require a test.

in fact put all 10 in front of the enemy and just charge. or receive the charge...if teir init is better. just a thought.