PDA

View Full Version : Magic Lores in 8th Ed



Gaargod
21-06-2010, 03:05
So, most people will have seen the book now or read the rumours about it - if not, go to the rumour forum. Therefore i thought it time to have a look at the new lores in the highly tactical sense.

First off, i'm going to assume everyone is abiding by the new rule of choosing your lores at the army building stage. I'm sure people won't in friendlies, but this tactica should be looking at a higher level.

Secondly, magic lores obviously heavily depend on the actual wizard involved. What works for a slann won't necessarily work for an empire wizard. As it happens, my main current army is lizardmen, so i'll occasionally add an interjection based on them.

Lore of Fire

On your first look, you will quickly notice fire is pretty much based on direct damage. That's not to say it doesn't have utility abilities available, but for the main part... you're hitting them in the face with a fireball of some kind. Subtle, it is not.

Attribute: Kindleflame
Very meh. Nice enough as a bonus, especially with fail spell = end of that wizard's magic phase (henceafter 'losing concentration', but not something you can build your magic phase around due to random and non stacking effect.

Signature spell: Fireball
I'm going to be honest, i disagree with the rumour roundup. That states that as fireball upgrades, it gets more powerful as well. When i read it yesterday, i didn't actually see that (although i did note its casting level went up a LOT, so who knows). For the sake of argument, i'll write 2 parts.
a) Doesn't increase strength: Its a fireball. What do you want? Like everything else in the lore, burning stuff with S4 is useful enough and its cheap.
b) Increases. So much better its not even funny. This gives fire lore the ability to hurt heavily armoured stuff (S5/6 is nothing to sniff at). Expensive at higher levels, but very useful.

Spell 1: Cascading Fire Cloak
Hugely situational of course, but its fairly powerful and relatively cheap. Also useful as if you get stuck in combat, you're not casting magic missles. Then again, you don't really want your fragile wizards in combat...

Spell 2: Flaming Sword of Rhuin
Magical, flaming +1 to wound attacks. Yay. +1 strength be nicer, but such is life. Useful for pretty much anything except obviously high strength attacks. Also remember that now flaming attacks = cause fear in beasts/cav/chariots, so that can be a nice trick to pull out the bag.

Spell 3: Burning Head
Same use as 7th ed - panicking large, low LD units that you couldn't do with standard spells. More useful in 8th ed i suspect due to more hordey units. Still... not that cheap considering its actual damage.

Spell 4: Piercing Bolts
Sigh, a more imaginative name could have been found... Point aside, its obviously situational on what you're firing it at. Coming up against 50+ elven spearmen for their silly number of attacks? This is your new favourite spell. Against ogres, not so much.

Spell 5: Fulminating Fire Cage
They couldn't have kept the name wall of fire... why? Its now only 11+ to cast and only does D6 initial hits. Otherwise the same i think - still very very useful. Probably even more so as its cheaper and more hordey units.

Spell 6: Flame Storm
Hmm. 13+ to cast is not nice considering its really rather inaccurate and actually not that powerful. Useful versus castling enemies like all vorteces, but i think i've seen better spells. Still, for a final spell considering its possible damage, its not too shabby.

Conclusion: Not for me i'm afraid. Fire suffers from being S4 all the way (assuming fireball problems), which means you have no options to take out hard stuff. Great versus horde armies, mediocre versus mixed armies and awful versus tough armies.


Lore of Metal

Well hey now... this is more interesting. Sort of opposite to fire, this lore LOVES heavily armoured troops, whilst struggling against hordey troops. However...

Attribute: Metalshifting
Sort of like spirit of the forge in 7th ed. You now roll their armour save - if you pass it, they die. No toughness involved. Obviously, this can be a bonus or problem - statisicially worse against T3, same versus T4 and better versus T5.

Signature Spell: Searing Doom
Hehe. Bane of cavalry, this spell is bad news for any heavily armoured troops. Upgraded version is basically spirit of the forge. Not cheap for a starter spell, but has huge potential power. Also remember - even versus not super protected troops its good as in T4 4+ troops like saurus. This spell is streaks ahead of something like fireball.

Spell 1: Plague of Rust
Odd. Armour is what helps you kill stuff in metal lore, but here you're actually making it worse. Useful enough however, especially against pesky troops like chaos knights where S4 troops before don't make a dent.

Spell 2: Enchanted Blades of Aiban
Beautiful, beautiful spell. +1 to hit is a godsend by itself! Every time you get this spell, keep it and thank whatever gods you worship for the luck!

Spell 3: Glittering Robe
Very very interesting tactical proposition. A straight +2 armour save (i'd also like to argue it works for things that already have a scaly skin save, due to the wording. Point aside) is rather nice for a lot of things. Be careful the enemy doesn't use it against you if they have the metal lore as well though!

Spell 4: Gehenna's Golden Hounds
First look - its like rule of burning iron on crack. D6 hits on enemy characters with metalshifting? Yes please. Second look - they get look out sir. DAMMIT! This turns it from a evil little git of a spell into fairly meh. Still, champions don't get it and it can still be used to target the enemy as a rich man's searing doom.

Spell 5: Transmutation of Lead
Why is it -1WS? Just... why?!!! Whatever, its taken a fairly large hit from its 7th ed form - it no longer affects wounding and -1WS is more situational. Possibly more aggresive though, as -1WS and -1 armour can be used to help hit and hurt (maybe in conjunction with plague of rust to really spoil someone's day). Also now can help protect your troops out of combat.

SPell 6: Final Transmutation
Weird name (i'd have gone for something alchemy related). But whatever, its still fairly awesome. 5+ to kill stuff regardless is nice enough (especially gains large units), adding in stupidity to surrounding units is a lovely bonus. Although why its 6+ for multi wound targets is beyond me - the whole point of multi wound targets is that they're mor expensive, so you'll have a smaller model count for the same price, so less chances to turn them to gold. But hey, whatever. Still worth taking, although its really not cheap.

Conclusion: One of my favourite new lores and one i'll be trying out a lot with my slann. It does suffer against hordey armies, but it has a lot of utility spells backed up with some serious damage potential and can even have a go at assassination! If your army can handle hordes anyways... you should be seriously interested by this lore.


Lore of Shadow

A very… odd lore. Lots of potential to nerf an enemy unit and is really, really killy versus low initative armies. Still… odd. Moreover, if you roll up the wrong spells, you’re in for a bad time of it.

Attribute: Smoke and Mirrors
Wait, what? This is the bonus for the lore? Someone clearly dislikes lore of shadow up there. Maybe occasionally it’ll be useful (and interestingly, is something you CAN base a plan around because it’s fairly reliable).

Signature Spell: Melkoth’s Mystifying Aura
(Anyone see the reference to Melkor of Lord of the Rings, or is it just me?) A very decent opening spell. Also the scaled up version is fairly awesome. A bit random of course due to D3, but you can completely screw over units. In particular, BS is rarely very high, so lowering it by D3 can leave a shooty unit with major problems.

Spell 1: Steed of Shadows
Meh. Can no longer be used to magic charge, so no one really cares. Useful enough for setting up shooting or other spells (in particular, see Penumbral Pendulum) or just generally getting the hell out of trouble, but always seen a mile off. At least its cheap. Ish.

Spell 2: Enfeebling Foe
Well hello now. Awesome cheese on toast. This spell can render units helpless versus even the most pathetic of foes – or fail. Being random, it will occasionally backfire in your face.

Spell 3: Withering
Read the above spell? Its like that, except now you get to kill them easier instead! Harder to cast but still doable.

Spell 4: Penumbral Pendulum
Odd, but cool. Situational on armies of course, but can ninja snipe low initiative stuff happily – and like always, war machines and chariots will hate it with a passion. Random range is always not good, but 6D6 comes up at a respectable 21” on average and rolling that many dice means averages are more likely. Sort of. This spell benefits a lot from the boosted version, which has a fairly awesome 42” average range. It benefits even more from steed of shadows – you can use that to get into position and then nuke the seven levels of crap out of problematical battle lines (just like skaven using skitterleap + crack’s call, for those who play the rat ones). As always, such a plan is seen several miles off though…

Spell 5: Pit of Shades
Whoah boy. A little bit inaccurate perhaps, but scarily, scarily powerful. Don’t expect to be killing elves with it any time soon, but its still absolute death to castled armies. Dwarf players will hate you with a passion. Of course, the price reflects that.

Spell 6: Okkam’s Mindrazor
Apart from having possibly the coolest name ever, this spell rocks socks. That unit of 50 spear elves? Yeah, they now hit you at S8. Have fun with that. This spell turns horde units into lords of the battle who will murderkill everything in charge range. As far as I know, it doesn’t affect armour saves (unfortunately), and its horribly expensive at 18+… but still. Its scary death. And cool. Do not forget the cool factor.

Conclusion: For those of you who like to screw with the opponent’s army, this lore is for you. Obviously works very well versus low initiative armies – but if you get a scaled up mystifying aura off, even elves are going to start feeling the pain. Definitely benefits from multiple wizards taking the long view though – start debuffing (hexing, whatever) enemy units and you can run straight over them. Buff your own with Okkam’s Mind-fricking-chainsaw-bladed-razor, and you won’t care what they are to start with.


Lore of Beasts

Are you on foot? In not, do not take this lore – reasons will become apparent. Now we’ve got that out of the way, it’s a really rather nice lore. Don’t expect to kill much with it directly, but it is buffs are nothing short of jaw dropping.

Attribute: Wildheart
Useful enough – certainly better than, say, kindleflame. Again, nothing to base a plan around, but nice when it happens.

Signature Spell: Wyssan’s Wildform
Well hot damm, that’s some starter spell! You pay for it, but boy does it have potential. Range is a little short though, unless you’re boosting it.

Spell 1: Flock of Doom
Who thinks up these names, seriously? Whatever, S2 hits aren’t scaring anyone above skink level. Its cheap of course with a standard range, but seriously… Meh

Spell 2: Pann’s Impenetrable Pelt
Much more interesting. +3T makes even humies into walking talking tanks. Considering it stacks with other buffs like Wildform (as far as I know), you can make some serious challenger dudes. Also could work to protect, say, a Pegasus hero from handgunners. The boosted version is potentially ridiculous, but no sensible opponent will ever let it off if it’s important. Short range is unhelpful too.

Spell 3: Amber Spear
Yay, it now does D3 wounds! Only decent direct damage in the lore and thankfully its rather good for sniping stuff. Upgraded version is now a cannonball!

Spell 4: Curse of Anrahir
-1 to hit is rather nice and treating all terrain as dangerous terrain on crack is vicious. As it’s a hex with a long 36” range, you can reach out and touch someone from turn 1 too to really screw up their plans (if you’re boosting it, it gets ridiculous range…). Overall a very nice little spell.

Spell 5: Savage Beast of Horros
Urgh! Sort of like Pann’s Pelt, this spell turns your characters into walking talking chainsaws. Potentially devastating on the upgraded (and hugely expensive) version.

Spell 6: Transformation of Kadon
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot? Seriously, WTF! Ok, for a start, its expensive. Really expensive. And, as far as I could see, you actually need to have the model you want to change into (which is ridiculously stupid and will be massively house ruled). On the plus side, you into a dragon! Or some other large beasty. If you get this off at the right moment, it’s a game changer no questions asked. It does have some disadvantages however – although your beasty is tough and resilient, if you change back, your lost wounds stay around. This is a bad thing! Of course when you read the spell you think ‘But hold on, I’ll then just stay as a [insert monster here] and go rampage!’ Yes, but then you can’t cast spells. You exchange your wizard for a monster, effectively.
Of course, this is the best deal ever if you manage to make the obscene casting value of 25+ (I think) and turn into a Greater Fire Dragon. That thing is produced by Forge World (there’s actually a picture in the book of it, in the big 4 page battle). It’s a lovely model, but the idiot who wrote its rules was clearly on crack – it could walk through whole armies without blinking. This one is a little downgraded (‘only’ 8 attacks and US30 no longer applies), but still eats anything in front of it. Overall, a very weird spell, which might never ever go off – or might break a game. Possibly a better idea for lv2s than lv4s though!

Conclusion: Its very short ranged but potentially very powerful. NOT for a magic heavy army (unless you’re trying for multiple transformations, I suppose), but can easily swing a battle.

Lore of Heavens

Sigh, when are skink priests gonna be allowed to stop using this damm lore again? I liked the sacred hosts lists… Point aside, it’s a weird lore. Half of it is rather damaging, the other half is just a bit odd.

Attribute: Rolling Skies
If you run against lots of non-monstrous flyers, great! Otherwise, no one really cares.

Signature Spell: Iceshard Blizzard
A LOT better than the summary states. It’s a straight -1 to hit for everything, 4+ to hit for auto hitting attacks AND its even a -1LD modifier. For a 7+ spell, that’s not too shabby. 24” hex means its pretty usable too.

Spell 1: Harmonic Convergence
Its good enough I suppose. Not too expensive, and rerolls are always nice. Bit short ranged though.

Spell 2: Wind Blast
Weirdest spell ever. Pushing an opponent D3+1” away is nice, but you have to make them hit stuff to start doing damage – odd for a direct damage spell! Quite nice if you can push them into another unit, as they both take D6 S3 hits. Certainly the scaled up version has various tactical applications (maybe you failed a charge?)

Spell 3: Curse of the Midnight Wind
What’s with the names again? Opposite version of harmonic convergence, but a decent range and hex means its more flexible. Also nice to stop poisoning.

Spell 4: Urion’s Thunderbolt
Now we’re talking! D6 S6 hits? Awesome cheese. Shame it doesn’t ignore armour, as far as I saw, but pretty good at nuking whatever you dislike. ‘Unlimited’ range is fairly awesome too.

Spell 5: Comet of Cassandora
Oh boy, did this get powered up again. 2D6 S4 hits to anything it hits is nice enough, but every marker put down gives you +1 hit and +1S. Yes, that means you could be getting 2D6+2 S6 hits on anything unfortunate enough to still be nice it when it comes down. Expensive of course, but not too bad all things considered. I have to say, I thought it was a remains in play though… could be wrong. If not, its even better!

Spell 6: Chain Lightning
0.o well this has some potential. Its Uranon’s Thunderbolt that might run riot around their battleline. Unfortunately, even though its on a 3+, that’s still too random to rely upon, so hit what you want to die first. Rather pricey too.

Conclusion: If you have the loremaster special rule (know all spells), heavens is rather nice as can be used in a lot of situations. Without, its just too random and you might end up with a almost useless set of spells (pretty much like the 7th ed lore, to be honest).


Lore of Light

Another interesting lore. Is nicely balanced for a variety of uses and has some potentially very funky spells.

Attribute: Exorcism
If you’re playing against daemons or undead… this lore rocks. End of discussion. If not, oh well.

Signature Spell: Shem’s Burning Gaze
Yeah boy. Very basic magic missle… except it can be upgraded to monster-killing S6. And just for the hells of it, its flaming too! What’s not to love?

Spell 1: Pha’s Protection
Good thing Pha has stopped illuminating people, he’s doing a better job of protecting them. This spell helps your unit live [insert happy face]. Cheap and cheerful, if short ranged.

Spell 2: Speed of Light
(Did you know its physically impossible for something to move at the speed of light? By doing so, its mass would increase to infinite size, if Einstein was right) This is a lovely spell – expect to see it a lot on saurus! Its effectively always strike first, hit on 3+ AND be hit on 5+ by troops with Ws4 or less. Very very powerful potentially. Even has a decent range.

Spell 3: Light of Battle
Highly situational. I can’t remember the exact wording – but if you can use it to effectively make units unbreakable, then it is possibly very good. If not, rather meh.

Spell 4: Net of Amyntok
Pretty cool spell. Obviously better against low S units, this might screw with an opponent’s plans considerably. Might not too – don’t base your plan around it, unless you cast it on a lone wizard or something.

Spell 5: Banishment
Possibly one of the most interesting spells they’ve introduced, this is one of the reasons light is such a good lore! 2D6 S4 hits is a good start, rerolling successful wards is a nice if situational bonus (screw you daemons! 3D6 hits rerolling passed ward saves!). However, its real bonus is its stacking strength. Even just 2 casters around makes it a devastating 2D6 S5 hits. Not cheap of course, but this IS worth planning around.

Spell 6: Birona’s Timewarp
Wow. I art speedy Gonzales. Game breakingly good, if you pull it off at the right time. Of course, magic is after movement, so an opponent will know its coming but even so… Wow. Its expensive and should be!

Conclusion: I’d suggest this is an excellent lore for empire wizards (or similar). They can buy a few wizards all using it to maximise the power of banishment and ensure you can cast the funky situational spells whenever you want. If you’re relying on one high level caster, its not quite as good but still a very rounded lore – which is of course important in 8th ed army building.

Gaargod
21-06-2010, 03:06
Lore of Life

One of the better lores I feel. A couple of awesome buffs, some scary damage potential and the ability to regrow your own troops!

Attribute: Lifebloom
One of the best attributes going. Free heals to monsters and characters! 12” range is not the best ever, but when you compare it to the others…

Signature Spell: Earthblood
Yay for regen? May only be a 5+, but that’s a 1/3 of your deaths going away. Think it has a passable range too, though I would not swear.

Spell 1: Awakening of the Wood
With the new terrain rules, 18” of a wood is pretty much the whole board usually. Moreover, as woods are no longer tarpits (Although they are kinda scary for other reasons…), there is better odds of getting something there. Shame it’s a magic missle though.

Spell 2: Flesh to Stone
Holy… Short range, but this is another ‘my unit lives now’ spell. Combine with earthblood (and Throne of Vines, if you really feel harsh) and watch dragons bounce off the unit.

Spell 3: Throne of Vines
Let’s get this straight. If you have loremaster, life rocks – because of this spell if nothing else. For a start, the spell itself is awesome, as ignoring miscasts on a 2+ is great when you see the new miscast table of doom. When you factor in the buffs, it gets silly. Awakening of the Wood now kills cavalry etc, earthblood is 1.5x better, Flesh to Stone now makes you ignore pretty much everything short of a cannonball (sometimes even that!), Regrowth now gets back serious numbers and shield of thorns gets a bit more useful. Seriously, if you can cast this spell… do.

Spell 4: Shield of Thorns
So so. Like Cascading Fire Cloak, but only S3. If you have nothing else to cast, its alright, but generally you can find something better to do.

Spell 5: Regrowth
It is no longer the domain of the undead only to raise back stuff! Going along with the general design decision (‘we hate cavalry and monsters’), its not so hot for bigger stuff, but still really rather nice. Restoring the champion and musician (not standard bearer, for some weird reason) is a very good bonus.

Spell 6: The Dwellers Below
Evil evil spell. The only one not to benefit from throne of vines, it doesn’t really need to. Against most stuff, you’re deleting half or a 1/3 of their unit straight out. Suffers from short range and high cost, but is ludicrously powerful.

Conclusion: My other favourite new lore. Direct damage is short ranged or a bit weak, but its buffs are awesome. Healing/raising stuff is lovely too. If you can take your wizard into the fray and support throne of vines, this is a very decent lore to take.


Lore of Death

Anyone reading the lore will immediately see its main purpose of assassination. That’s not to say it can’t murderkill units or have utility, but its meant to eat enemy characters alive.

Attribute: Life Leeching
The last of the really decent bonuses, this one is pretty damm awesome. If it was in another lore (metal or fire probably), it would be overpowered as hell. Even as it is, it rocks. Better synergy with some spells than others of course.

Signature Spell: Spirit Leech
Kinda meh, actually. If you’re high LD, its pretty useful to snipe characters/champions. Thankfully, it can’t backfire either. Overall though, there is better spells going.

Spell 1: Aspect of the Dreadknight
Yeah, pretty good. Fear is different but still good in 8th ed so making your unit scary for a relatively cheap price is fair enough. Upgraded version i'm not so sold on – both suffer somewhat as magic is after movement (and therefore all the tasty checks).

Spell 2: Caress of Laniph
Weird description, but awesome spell. Suffers from short range, but can basically murderkill anything you dislike.

Spell 3: Soulblight
Haha, fricking awesome spell. Like shadow, if you start debuffing the enemy, you start beating them over the head with their own stick. Upgraded version is potentially devastating, so never expect it to go off!

Spell 4: Doom and Darkness
Was good in 7th ed, still good in 8th, although its taken something of a downgrade as terror is no longer as useful. Still fun for abusing with auto-panic units like salamanders I suspect.

Spell 5: Fate of Bjuna
Caress of Laniph on crack. I can’t remember the exact wording, but I suspect it will work with Life Leeching AFTER you kill whatever you’re attacking. And unless you’re trying to kill a dragon or something, it will have major issues! Expensive, short ranged, devastating. Seeing a pattern here?

Spell 6: Purple Sun of Xereus
Very expensive at 15+/25+! Cast this at the right time and get lucky with the artillery dice roll, and you can nuke whole armies. Shame you can’t (directly) use steed of shadows with it – rolling up an enemies’ flank with this spell would be amusing. If you can manage to hit with it, works beautifully with Life Leeching, as a single good shot can max out your power dice! It’s a very scary spell which is rather unreliable.

Conclusion: Not actually a huge fan. The debuffs are nice, its great for assassinating enemy characters and purple sun will cause huge amounts of havoc, but I feel it lacks the variety that lores like metal or life can provide.







So, there you have it. My thoughts on the new lores. What do you guys feel about them?

Tyrannus
21-06-2010, 03:16
I'm personally in love with shadow... use the unit your mage is in to charge the combat, de buff the opponent to hell, then switch places with another character in the army to save her life, and debuff other squads, combining the aura to drop Ini the pit of shading is hilarious. So many uses in this lore. that and your units actually do the damage causing less whining of over powered mages destroying armies. :)

Jack of Blades
21-06-2010, 03:31
The one thing I would like to know after I commend you for these opinions is what's the loremaster special rule? how do you get it? I recognize the name from somewhere, probably because it's not a terribly uncommon word... but yeah.

Me, I've always been a sucker for weak things that transform themselves into pant recolouring devices (if you catch my drift...). But I also love screwing with my opponent. Hmm...

Tyrannus
21-06-2010, 03:46
I believe but may be wrong, loremaster is the special rule allowing the learning of a whole lores spell list.

Jack of Blades
21-06-2010, 03:48
I believe but may be wrong, loremaster is the special rule allowing the learning of a whole lores spell list.

Aye but how do you get it?

Sparowl
21-06-2010, 04:49
I completely agree with you about life. I posted about it in the lizardmen thread, but I'll repost it here:


Lore of Life is amazing.

Ignoring miscasts on a 2+ once you have Throne of Vines up? Yes please. I ignored 4 miscasts in one game that way.

Healing a wound off a model within 12 inchs everytime you cast a spell? Awesome. I must've healed 8 or 9 wounds off of my two stegs (one normal, one engine) during that game. Yes, you have to keep them close to the slann, but they aren't winning games by themselves now anyway, so they make great support/diverters to protect the slann/temple guard.

Turn 3 my opponent had the Temple guard down to just the Slann and the Standard bearer (he threw a lot at them). I threw regrowth, rolled a 6, and suddenly my Temple Guard are 8 strong around my slann again.

By the time my casting phase rolls around again on turn 4, he had them down to just the champion and the slann (I mean like half his army was attacking my Temple Guard). Irresistable force for regrowth, rolled another 6 (lucky, I know), and suddenly my temple guard are back in the game. And since his wizard had died in the previous turn (assassinated by a stegadon), I got to throw two more spells. +4 toughness on my temple guard? 4+ regen on the same guys? Near unkillable temple guard.

Oh, and I healed wounds off the stegs nearby while buffing my own unit.

Life is an amazing support lore. And Lizards have the tools we need to win, Life just makes it easier. And saves my Slann.

Quick note. Over the course of that game, I cast regrowth 4 times successfully, twice with irresistible force. I "regrew" 23 models. More then the starting size of my 20 strong block.

And my ancient stegadon ended the game as a T10, 4+ regen monster. All the skinks were dead, but who cares about skinks anyway?

Paraelix
21-06-2010, 05:18
Lore of Fire
Signature spell: Fireball
When i read it yesterday, i didn't actually see that (although i did note its casting level went up a LOT, so who knows).
I'm with you here... I saw no change to Str value...
Lore of Metal

Attribute: Metalshifting
Forgot to mention that it therefore does nothing against unarmoured troops, and that all damage spells are flaming
Spell 1: Plague of Rust
Really useful against those units that you couldn't hurt with the Sig Spell. Similarly, it is not RIP and thus cannot be dispelled after cast. Can also be stacked.

Spell 2: Enchanted Blades of Aiban
Beautiful, beautiful spell. +1 to hit is a godsend by itself!
You forgot it also gives Armour Piercing.

Spell 3: Glittering Robe
Very very interesting tactical proposition. A straight +2 armour save
Scaly Skin... I'd actually have my money on it NOT stacking. Brilliant for troops with bugger all armour, or just for jumping to 1+.


Spell 5: Transmutation of Lead
Why is it -1WS? Just... why?!!! Whatever, its taken a fairly large hit from its 7th ed form - it no longer affects wounding and -1WS is more situational. Possibly more aggresive though, as -1WS and -1 armour can be used to help hit and hurt (maybe in conjunction with plague of rust to really spoil someone's day). Also now can help protect your troops out of combat.
I believe it also did -1Bs

SPell 6: Final Transmutation
Weird name (i'd have gone for something alchemy related). But whatever, its still fairly awesome. 5+ to kill stuff regardless is nice enough (especially gains large units), adding in stupidity to surrounding units is a lovely bonus. Although why its 6+ for multi wound targets is beyond me
People are likely to run bigger units... And killing soemthing like a steg on a 5+ would be obscene. I, for one, think 6+ is appropriate.

Lore of Shadow

Attribute: Smoke and Mirrors
Good for running in tandem with other mages and combat characters. "Oh Noes! I are in combat and cannot cast magic missiles!!!" says the Fire Mage. "I'll save you!!!" says the Shadow Mage who proceeds to swap places with him, throw the Fire Mage across the field, and then swap with a fighting character to get the hell out.


Spell 4: Penumbral Pendulum
I'm at a loss... Do these spells hit the people the template touches along the way?

Spell 6: Okkam’s Mindrazor
Apart from having possibly the coolest name ever, this spell rocks socks. That unit of 50 spear elves? Yeah, they now hit you at S8. Have fun with that. This spell turns horde units into lords of the battle who will murderkill everything in charge range. As far as I know, it doesn’t affect armour saves You are now S8... Why would you not affect armour saves? It just says you use Ld instead of S I believe...

Lore of Beasts
Attribute: Wildheart
Useful enough – certainly better than, say, kindleflame. Again, nothing to base a plan around, but nice when it happens.
If you play Beastmen... Hellz yes you like it...

Spell 2: Pann’s Impenetrable Pelt
Much more interesting. +3T makes even humies into walking talking tanks.
Again, throwing this on your monsters and stuff gets a boost... And all those Minos Beasty players are running just got alot more scary.

Spell 3: Amber Spear
Yay, it now does D3 wounds! Only decent direct damage in the lore and thankfully its rather good for sniping stuff. Upgraded version is now a cannonball!
I was a bit "meh" about this one.

Spell 5: Savage Beast of Horros
Urgh! Sort of like Pann’s Pelt, this spell turns your characters into walking talking chainsaws. Potentially devastating on the upgraded (and hugely expensive) version.
And perfect to stack with the Beastmen Mantle of Ghorok spell to make your Wizard a WMD.

Spell 6: Transformation of Kadon
Before you go and change your underpants...
You lose ALL equipment, but NOT special rules. Slann sitting in Temple Guard cannot leave the second rank of the unit.


Lore of Heavens

Sigh, when are skink priests gonna be allowed to stop using this damm lore again? I'm with you here... I'm hoping for Light.


Spell 1: Harmonic Convergence
Its good enough I suppose. Not too expensive, and rerolls are always nice. Bit short ranged though.

Spell 2: Wind Blast
Plucked straight from WotR shooting...

Spell 3: Curse of the Midnight Wind
Srsly? Spell 1 and 3 are the opposites of each other... What happened to imagination?

Spell 4: Urion’s Thunderbolt
This spell has limited range.

Spell 5: Comet of Cassandora
Comet is honestly better :D

Spell 6: Chain Lightning
Personally, I think this is one of the worst spells. Stand 7" apart and it does sweet F A.


Lore of Light

Attribute: Exorcism
If you’re playing against daemons or undead… this lore rocks. End of discussion. If not, oh well. Now ask yourself, "why oh why can Vampires use this Lore?"

Spell 3: Light of Battle
Auto pass all Ld tests and Rally if you were fleeing.

Spell 4: Net of Amyntok
Straight from WotR

Spell 5: Banishment
Meh. It is no longer worth running multiple wizards with the same Lore. In fact, I see most armies sticking with a single high level Wizard and leaving it at that.

Spell 6: Birona’s Timewarp
Hardly game breaking. Given that charging is random it's not huge... And the +1A again only affects the front rank.

Lore of Life


Spell 3: Throne of Vines
This makes it one of the penultimate Lores for ppl who take every spell or choose. I'm looking at Daemons, Slann and High Elves.

Lore of Death

IMO one of the most underwhelming Lores.

Signature Spell: Spirit Leech
And thus the Eldar have entered WFB.

Spell 1: Aspect of the Dreadknight
Fear isn't as huge a buff as before... But not bad.

Spell 6: Purple Sun of Xereus
Again my point as to the utility of Shadows... And what the hell? I'm getting the feeling that Low I armies are getting a little boned by being singled out all the time :/

Conclusion: Not actually a huge fan.
Likewise.



All of that said. I absolutely love the changes, and will probably give my Slann a go with each of them.

HeroFox
21-06-2010, 05:29
The ones that caught my eye was Life, Metal and Shadow.

Piercing Blades is just an amazing spell. The +1 to hit and armor piercing makes Elven Spears that much dangerous.

Vsurma
21-06-2010, 08:05
I am pretty sure I saw in the book that fire was indeed:
D6 S4 at 5+
2d6 S5 at 10+
3d6 S6 at 18+

That last one is going to put down knights and their like!

Ramius4
21-06-2010, 09:40
I am pretty sure I saw in the book that fire was indeed:
D6 S4 at 5+
2d6 S5 at 10+
3d6 S6 at 18+

That last one is going to put down knights and their like!

That is correct as far as I know.

kaintxu
21-06-2010, 20:36
I am pretty sure I saw in the book that fire was indeed:
D6 S4 at 5+
2d6 S5 at 10+
3d6 S6 at 18+

That last one is going to put down knights and their like!

2d6 S5 at 10+ is nasty for a slann he adds +4 so he only needs a 6, just roll 1 dice and the one from focused rumination and your average is 11, if you wanna go for sure, just toss in 2 dice and you got some nasty spell with high S which can kill even cavalries, imagin a WoC knights (toughest cavalry ingame) average 7 hits, average 5 wounds, average 2 not saves, not to sabby if you take into account that the metal lore spell number 1 does an average of 3 wounds against this guys but much less against weak guys, whilst this one goes great.

ScytheSwathe
21-06-2010, 23:27
Its all about the shadow. Im telling you.
Modifiers are always useful. Switching characters is useful. especially as a 'side effect', it might get overlooked when your opponent decides what to dispel, allowing that recently charged shadow mage to walk free, or letting you bounce that BSB closer to where he'll be needed. The last 2 spells are the shizzle, and even without okkams mind-machette, you can always drop peoples toughness instead.

I cant think of a single spell in there i wouldnt want.

Then theres death as my second favourite, though i dont think the 2 will mesh very well. Especially against high initiative troops.

beyond that it comes down to my mood, and whats in the rest of my army. But considering the only army i use which has access to the BRB lores is helves, ill probably stick to a lvl4 shadow and a lvl2 high most of the time.
maybe Teclis....

Paraelix
22-06-2010, 01:25
Then theres death as my second favourite, though i dont think the 2 will mesh very well. Especially against high initiative troops.


Doesn't one of the Shadow spells drop I values by D3?

Lotl Botl
22-06-2010, 03:09
hey i have a quick question throne of vines, is it a remains in play spell and if not are its effects permanent or do they end at the end of the turn?

Sparowl
22-06-2010, 04:58
hey i have a quick question throne of vines, is it a remains in play spell and if not are its effects permanent or do they end at the end of the turn?

It is Remains in Play.

- Vsurma, Ramius4, kaintxu - Fireball is S4 at all levels. It is simply d6 24", 2d6 36" and 3d6 48".

Lotl Botl
22-06-2010, 05:10
thanks so much that clarifies a lot, is it hard to cast ? Also, stone skin must be remains in play or one turn also, right?

Sparowl
22-06-2010, 05:19
thanks so much that clarifies a lot, is it hard to cast ? Also, stone skin must be remains in play or one turn also, right?

I believe the correct casting values are listed above for fire.

Throne goes off on an 8+. Life has pretty low casting values, making it easy to get multiple spells off (especially with a rumination Slann), which means multiple heals (1 wound per spell).

Life is:

Regeneration - Augment - Last until next magic phase.
Awakening the Woods - Magic Missile (I believe)
Skin to Stone - Augment - Last until next magic phase.
Throne of Vines - Augment - RiP
Shield of Thorns - Augment - RiP
Regrowth - Augment
Dweller - Direct Damage

Tomalock
22-06-2010, 06:16
Lore of Life is very very powerful. Anyone who has access to it should strongly consider it on atleast one mage. I have watched probably 5 or 6 games (including Sparowl's) that involved a player fielding Life against one that did not have access to it and it consistantly made a big difference.

If I had to pick a single spell to break games out of the new edition, it is Throne of Vines. In 8th edition you cast the spell, resolve it, then address miscasts. That means that you throw dice at Throne of Vines, get it with irristable force and on a +2 you ignore the miscast. That is really big, especially since you would lead off with that normally.

The rest of the lore is really good too. Since Throne of Vines augments every spell you cast except one, it tends to get crazy. In a game I watched today, a unit of 40 Eternal Guard broke the center of a Dark Elf army thanks in large part to getting +4 toughness (they were charged with a hydra, unit of wych elves, and a unit of black guard. They beat the wyches, hydra, and black guard over several turns and were charged by a cauldron who they would have beaten, but the Dark Elf player had to go). Having to deal with toughness 7 elves that fight in three ranks is not something I would want to face haha.

All in all I really like the way 8th is looking so far after having seen and played in quite a few games this past week. However the Lore of Life is almost stupidly good, so I again urge you to take it if you have access to it. The lore is really really strong compared to most of the other ones.

ScytheSwathe
22-06-2010, 09:21
Doesn't one of the Shadow spells drop I values by D3?

Yeah, but by that point all your super damage spells are I based, which means you will HAVE to cast the mystifying aura. which in turn means your opponent wont let you :p

Life is clearly one of the stronger ones too, but im not sure its all that people are hyping it up to be. But then ive not played an 8th game yet.

Chaos257
22-06-2010, 11:37
Lore of metal stupid overpower.

Just take lvl 1 wiz with lvl 1 version of spell.

Oh look I have an 80pt unit that will whipe out any high point cost armoured unit in the game.

weeee

most broken thing I've even seen gw produce.

Vsurma
22-06-2010, 18:04
It is Remains in Play.

- Vsurma, Ramius4, kaintxu - Fireball is S4 at all levels. It is simply d6 24", 2d6 36" and 3d6 48".

Just in case someone is still wondering, I had a look today and I can confirm that all the levels of the fireball are indeed S4.

I guess after hearing about the S4, S5, S6 from the rumor section I didn't even pay attention to the exact wording of the spell.

The casting values are still 5,10,18 but the strength stays the same.

The casting values made more sense to me with the strength going up, at least the jump from 10+ to 18+ is really large for an extra d6 S4 hits.

Seing as the 1d6 version costs 1d6 to cast
2d6 is 2 dice with a lv4 or 3 with lv2
3d6 is a whopping 4 dice with lv4 and 5 dice with lv2.

Doesn't make sense to me without the additional strength.

Also the lore of fire nice as it is, always suffered from only having S4, so if your opponent comes at you with the all too common +1 save knights, your magic did nothing. S5 would have fixed this, same deal against say a hydra, fireballs are nice but only if they wound.

I feel the fire lore would have been great against anything if only the fireball would have scaled to S5, now not so much. Sad.

Vsurma
22-06-2010, 18:18
Lore of metal stupid overpower.

Just take lvl 1 wiz with lvl 1 version of spell.

Oh look I have an 80pt unit that will whipe out any high point cost armoured unit in the game.

weeee

most broken thing I've even seen gw produce.

Well, it's a 1d6 version of spirit of the forge. Basically for half the casting cost.
Spirit required 4 dice, this one requires 2 with a lv4, 3 with lv2.

So for its power its not that much of a difference, and only 1 mage can have it.

Though the fact that you can take it as the base spell means you get it every time. You can justify adding one into any army with the lore accessible to them. For 100pts you can indeed get that spell. So yea, its powerful.

That said your lv1 is going to want to throw 3 dice at it for any decent chance of success, that is pretty much half your magic phase so it is not without cost. (you could for example cast 3 low level spells with a lv4 with those same dice... is it SO powerful it is better than 3 other spells?)

The magic phase is different, while that would have been incredible last edition when there was no "opportunity cost" attached, this is not so anymore, your paying for the spell by giving up the ability to cast 3 other spells, this on top of your 80pts.

Skyros
22-06-2010, 20:15
Lore of metal stupid overpower.

Just take lvl 1 wiz with lvl 1 version of spell.

Oh look I have an 80pt unit that will whipe out any high point cost armoured unit in the game.


The thing is though, more wizards just means more demands on your fixed pool of dice. A L1 using these power dice means your other wizards can't use those.

Tomalock
23-06-2010, 02:23
If you have access to it, a single level 4 who knows all spells in one or more lores is really all that you need in 8th. The only time I really see lots of wizards being useful is if you are lowballing your dispell dice thrown and need to keep switching casters because you are failing to dispell. In most of the games I have witnessed so far, a single level 4 is more than enough to make it through a casting or dispelling phase. If you have other ways to add to your casting (like the Fey Enchantress getting +6 to life spells) then thats always helpful too.

Paraelix
23-06-2010, 02:40
If you have access to it, a single level 4 who knows all spells in one or more lores is really all that you need in 8th.

Only problem is, due to the manner in which you pick Lore during army comp, you must pick a generalised lore.

Gaargod
23-06-2010, 17:53
Which is what i was trying to get across in my initial posts. I'd already skipped the intermediate steps :D

Interestingly, most of the lores are actually fairly balanced. If we assume we're using a Lv4 with loremaster (know all spells), its quite an awkward choice actually. Furthermore, you have to take into account the army you're using. I tend to generalize that if your army can deal with WoC, Skaven and LM, then it should be able to beat everything as those guys bring the main archetypes.
So for my LM army, which can happily beat up hordes or balanced armies but struggles against heavy armour, i'm really thinking metal. For an empire gunline which destroys armour or hordes due to firepower/tarpits, you want something to take out mid-line armies, so you're looking at something like light. An army which can't handle hordes should be looking at fire.

You also of course want to be taking into account the hexes/buffs available. Shadow really really struggles to much damage against high initiative damage (-D3 Ini only goes so far) but has evil debuffs. By comparison, beasts struggles to do much damage at all but has ridiculous buffs available.

Overall i'd suggest the top lores would be life and metal, closely followed by light and beasts. Life in particular is i think the best rounded lore available, as it can do everything from unit-deleting spells (dweller), some damage (Awakening of woods/shield of thorns), heal/buff your own troops (regrowth/earth blood) and even helps protect against the devastating miscast table!

Skyros
23-06-2010, 22:28
How widespread is Loremaster though, really?

HeroFox
23-06-2010, 22:32
Not many.

Kairos, Teclis and the Slann are the only one with full lore access off the top of my head. Very magically appropriate.

DrMabutu
23-06-2010, 22:40
Not many.

Kairos, Teclis and the Slann are the only one with full lore access off the top of my head. Very magically appropriate.

There is also every vampire. If they take Forbidden Lore then they get all the spells from one of the rulebook lores (except life).

HeroFox
23-06-2010, 23:27
Oh, and I guess that Empire Wizard that knows the entire Lore of Metal.

Kerill
24-06-2010, 00:38
Does anyone know the casting values for all the new lore spells? Its not in the rumour sticky and the first topic here only has the values for the lore of fire.

Jack of Blades
24-06-2010, 01:38
Very magically appropriate.

If there's something that's magically appropriate it's that magicians don't have random amnesia and their memory sections play russian roulette with what spells they remember. I don't get why this is in the game, it makes no sense at all, it's like troops rolling a D6 to determine what set of equipment they will use this game. Random spell generation makes as much sense to me as a regiment of Swordsmen rolling a D6 each morning to determine what brand of puffy sleeve he will wear or what end of his sword he will use to stab who with today.

I think knowing all spells should be rare, but you should at least be able to pick what spells you know. Random spell generation just introduces an irritation factor in an already random enough system.

HeroFox
24-06-2010, 01:54
If there's something that's magically appropriate it's that magicians don't have random amnesia and their memory sections play russian roulette with what spells they remember. I don't get why this is in the game, it makes no sense at all, it's like troops rolling a D6 to determine what set of equipment they will use this game. Random spell generation makes as much sense to me as a regiment of Swordsmen rolling a D6 each morning to determine what brand of puffy sleeve he will wear or what end of his sword he will use to stab who with today.

I think knowing all spells should be rare, but you should at least be able to pick what spells you know. Random spell generation just introduces an irritation factor in an already random enough system.

I think rolling for spells is to facilitate that some Wizards specialize in different spells and what not.

Jack of Blades
24-06-2010, 01:55
I think rolling for spells is to facilitate that some Wizards specialize in different spells and what not.

Which is better represented by randomly rolling for rather than actually knowing spells? :confused:

HeroFox
24-06-2010, 01:58
I know I hate rolling for spells too.. but at least 8th Ed. made that slightly better in which you can choose any spell you roll a double for.

Paraelix
24-06-2010, 03:54
My new thought is to run a Lvl4 with your chosen spell Lore, and a Lvl2 with Death to do character sniping and regenerate the dice he has spent for the Lord to use.

(Also posted this in Wizard Tactica)

Tenken
24-06-2010, 07:35
I love lore of life. Slann in a big unit of TG with lore of life just wants to hit battle asap and never lose. Shield of thorns + regrowth on TG = WIN! I hate purple sun though, just kicks lizardmen in the nuts. GW apparently hates armies with low I. This edition really gives tons of benefits to high I armies (elves) and really punishes low I armies. Oh well. Other than purple sun I quite like lore of death for an ethereal carpet slann. I'm just so **** scared of rolling a misfire and half my army being eaten. Depending on how the ruling turns out for the 5+ scaly skin spell I might like lore of metal, but if it doesn't stack with existing scaly skin I just don't see it being terribly useful for lizardmen.

Lore of fire has some possible synergy with lizardmen, the firewall spell (whatever it was renamed to) says it does damage "whenever the unit moves" so combine that with the spell from heavens that pushes the enemy and you can really ruin someone's day. I say lizardmen specifically for this one, because lizardmen can have a slann to guarantee they know the firewall and tettoeko knows all heavens spells. I suppose any army that has access to both those lores can pull off this combo though.

I really hate the idea that you have to pick your lore when you write your list. I think that what it means is basically everyone will be taking a life or death mage about 90% of the time. In theory its a good idea to keep people from list tailoring, but in practice it just means the lores that have the best general use spells are going to be those picked most often. I usually write up my list on the spot as well, and I know what army everyone around here plays, so this rule just sort of encourages not coming prepared. I can see it end up being ignored for the most part except in multi-round tournies and things like that.

Vsurma
24-06-2010, 08:42
My new thought is to run a Lvl4 with your chosen spell Lore, and a Lvl2 with Death to do character sniping and regenerate the dice he has spent for the Lord to use.

Well only the purple sun has a chance of causing many wounds, all the other spells are sniping spells, at best you can snipe a lord and kill it giving you 3 chances at that 5+.

Still, apart from the purple sun spell you really won't be getting many dice back.
(Also posted this in Wizard Tactica)


I love lore of life. Slann in a big unit of TG with lore of life just wants to hit battle asap and never lose. Shield of thorns + regrowth on TG = WIN! I hate purple sun though, just kicks lizardmen in the nuts. GW apparently hates armies with low I. This edition really gives tons of benefits to high I armies (elves) and really punishes low I armies. Oh well. Other than purple sun I quite like lore of death for an ethereal carpet slann. I'm just so **** scared of rolling a misfire and half my army being eaten. Depending on how the ruling turns out for the 5+ scaly skin spell I might like lore of metal, but if it doesn't stack with existing scaly skin I just don't see it being terribly useful for lizardmen.

Lore of fire has some possible synergy with lizardmen, the firewall spell (whatever it was renamed to) says it does damage "whenever the unit moves" so combine that with the spell from heavens that pushes the enemy and you can really ruin someone's day. I say lizardmen specifically for this one, because lizardmen can have a slann to guarantee they know the firewall and tettoeko knows all heavens spells. I suppose any army that has access to both those lores can pull off this combo though.

I really hate the idea that you have to pick your lore when you write your list. I think that what it means is basically everyone will be taking a life or death mage about 90% of the time. In theory its a good idea to keep people from list tailoring, but in practice it just means the lores that have the best general use spells are going to be those picked most often. I usually write up my list on the spot as well, and I know what army everyone around here plays, so this rule just sort of encourages not coming prepared. I can see it end up being ignored for the most part except in multi-round tournies and things like that.

Well in friendly play you can ignore anything you like really, but as you said in tournaments at least you will have people plan in advance. I think it is quite interesting.

Though I play a slann lizard list and picking on the spot gave me a huge advantage, I still don't mind. I think it encourages you to spend more points on additional wizards just for the different lore options, which to me is a fine idea. I certainly don't see it as making magic overpriced seeing what the new spells can do.


Yea, I suppose with the lore of life you could still run TG, otherwise I would leave them at home, with that set up though, 18 S5 hits at a decent WS and the resurrection spell, it will be just like playing a vampire bunker.

HeroFox
25-06-2010, 00:09
Can someone tell me how Purple Sun works?

I called my LGS who has the book and asked them how it works. Where do you originally place the template? They said it didn't mention where you originally place the template, just that it scatters 3x whatever your roll on the artillery/scatter dice. If you misfire, you center it on top of your wizard, roll a scatter and D6.

Paraelix
25-06-2010, 00:32
Can someone tell me how Purple Sun works?

I called my LGS who has the book and asked them how it works. Where do you originally place the template? They said it didn't mention where you originally place the template, just that it scatters 3x whatever your roll on the artillery/scatter dice. If you misfire, you center it on top of your wizard, roll a scatter and D6.

It either says where in the spell description, or it follows the explanation of direct damage spells which say the template is placed in contact with the caster.

HeroFox
25-06-2010, 01:02
I would imagine if its not mentioned in the spell description, its most likely in contact with the caster.

I find it really strange that the caster has no say which direction it goes lol.

Paraelix
25-06-2010, 01:28
I would imagine if its not mentioned in the spell description, its most likely in contact with the caster.

I find it really strange that the caster has no say which direction it goes lol.

Yeh, I'd be double checking that one >_>