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vladsimpaler
21-06-2010, 07:32
So my friend and I are going to start playing Fantasy, just for fun really.

He has a bunch of Ogres because he thought they looked cool and I have a lot of Dark Elves because I thought they looked cool.

Anyway as we're both going off to college we're just going to play 1000 which is really small but I don't want to pay a ton of money.

I was wondering what would be effective against Ogres as Dark Elves. The Reaper Bolt Thrower looks pretty sweet.

But the really big question I have is whether to use Executioners or Black Guard.

The Executioners have more strength because of great weapons, and killing blow which is sweet. But they have 1 attack and they have ASL because of great weapons.

The Black Guard have more attacks and they're Str 4, so I feel like I will get a better deal out of them.

Of course I don't know a ton about Fantasy, but what would be better against Ogres? Executioners or Black Guard?

Also I was thinking of taking some Cold One Knights because they look really cool. Against Ogres, are they a good idea?

And final question, I promise: Should I go with a Master or a Sorceress? I mean either one works but I'm wondering which one would be more effective.

I already have a Sorceress model so if she works fine I'm going to go with her and make her unless of course a Master would help me out more!

So, TL;DR:

Assuming we are playing with 8th edition rules:
1. Against Ogres, which are better: Executioners or Black Guard?
2. Are COK useful versus Ogres?
3. Sorceress or Master? I'm leaning towards Sorceress but I'm a newb so I don't know.

Thanks! : )

DarkTyrany22
21-06-2010, 08:07
Black Guard are better in most all situations than Executioners. ASL is a big minus for Executioners, whereas Stubborn and ItP is a big boon for Black Guard. Also, 2 S4 attacks vs. 1 S6 attack is not much difference vs. Ogres. Oh, and your Black Guard will get to reroll hits in every round of combat. Just like in 7th edition, Black Guard are the superior choice. Oh, and Crimson Death on the unit champion is always nice.

Edit: Oh, and perhaps the biggest bonus is the Black Guard don't have swords that fall off at the slightest breeze. =P

CoKs can be useful vs. Ogres since our foot troops are generally slower than them (a rarity, but true). With 8th edition charge rules that is less of an issue, but CoKs can definitely deal the hurt to Ogres. A good supporting unit, but I probably wouldn't pile on too many doo-hickeys. In this same vein, Cold One Chariots are also quite nice, although the current models use the old cold ones. Stupidity at Ld9 isn't too much of an issue either, especially in for fun games.

At 1k points the Sorceress is perfectly fine. Perhaps a level 2 armed with the Tome of Furion and either Lifetaker or a Dispel Scroll depending on whether you want to stop a crucial spell or gun down more Ogres.

vladsimpaler
21-06-2010, 08:33
Black Guard are better in most all situations than Executioners. ASL is a big minus for Executioners, whereas Stubborn and ItP is a big boon for Black Guard. Also, 2 S4 attacks vs. 1 S6 attack is not much difference vs. Ogres. Oh, and your Black Guard will get to reroll hits in every round of combat. Just like in 7th edition, Black Guard are the superior choice. Oh, and Crimson Death on the unit champion is always nice.

Edit: Oh, and perhaps the biggest bonus is the Black Guard don't have swords that fall off at the slightest breeze. =P

CoKs can be useful vs. Ogres since our foot troops are generally slower than them (a rarity, but true). With 8th edition charge rules that is less of an issue, but CoKs can definitely deal the hurt to Ogres. A good supporting unit, but I probably wouldn't pile on too many doo-hickeys. In this same vein, Cold One Chariots are also quite nice, although the current models use the old cold ones. Stupidity at Ld9 isn't too much of an issue either, especially in for fun games.

At 1k points the Sorceress is perfectly fine. Perhaps a level 2 armed with the Tome of Furion and either Lifetaker or a Dispel Scroll depending on whether you want to stop a crucial spell or gun down more Ogres.

Thanks a ton! I was kind of rooting for the Black Guard and it's good to see that my gut feeling has been validated!

Also, welcome to Warseer! :)

DarkTyrany22
21-06-2010, 08:44
Thanks a ton! I was kind of rooting for the Black Guard and it's good to see that my gut feeling has been validated!

Also, welcome to Warseer! :)

Thanks. Long time lurker, but it's late and I love my Dark Elves so I felt the need to post. =P

giner
21-06-2010, 18:45
In guessing you've been playing 40k for a while, so know something about building a list. If you look about the place you'll find the basic differences you should be aware of.

If you follow that Dark Elves should not have too many problems beating Ogres. OK look to get better in 8th, but not by too much. DE on the other hand are 1st/2nd best. SO just take units you think look cool and you will be fine.

jesters89
21-06-2010, 19:08
Just to expand on whats been said...

Black Guard are the way to go. Executioners are fun and pretty nice models, but black guard are just too powerful. Furthermore, the killing blow would not work on the ogres as they are not man-sized.

CoKs look great, but will primarily serve as flankers.

I tend toward martial armies over magic... but really it can't hurt to have both a sorceress and a master in your army.

Chaos257
22-06-2010, 01:43
Dark elf are massive overpower in new edition.

Archangelion
22-06-2010, 01:59
Yes, with most models having I5 or higher, they almost always strike first now! I am really looking forward to my campaign vs Orcs & Goblisn, Vampire Counts, and Empire. Should be some pretty fun stuff!

I am, personnally, looking at picking up the Black Guard myself. They not only look killer, but they ARE killer too!

A question though. I have not yet used Dark Riders and was wondering if they have any good uses, and how to equip them for what they're best at.

Also, I heard a rumour about new plastics... is this true? How soon? What models?

jesters89
22-06-2010, 02:25
Not sure about new plastics for dark riders...

As for their game purpose-- They have 2 solid roles now.

1) harass enemies with crossbows. Because you can ld test to march even within 8 inches of the enemy, you can harass enemies with x/bow fire and close range with little chance of being charged.

2) Attempt to march block and charge fleeing enemies. If an enemy flees within charge range of the DR, you can then declare a charge and likely catch them. Alternatively, if it is a fleeing unit that failed to rally (not one that fled this turn), you can charge them and they are denied a charge reaction, cut down, and you get a free reform.

Don Zeko
22-06-2010, 03:20
They're good for more than that. Dark Riders will pretty easily beat small units in close combat, so use them to clear out enemy fast cavalry, missile troops, and war machines. In 7th, they can reliably beat a ranked up non-elite unit on a flank charge. In 8th that won't work anymore, but they're still very useful units.

southpaw
22-06-2010, 04:02
I know you have not mentioned them yet, but Witch Elves are very good against Ogres. Tons of I6 poison attacks work out very well against low armor troops.

Archangelion
22-06-2010, 11:07
The models look nasty for the Witch Elves though... eesh. :(

What about shades?

Stumpy
22-06-2010, 11:35
Basically, you're looking at dark elves. Everything is amazingly good, it seems to be the theme of their book.
Shades, same thing. Best skirmishers in the game, except maybe flamers of tzeentch.

fishofury
22-06-2010, 12:37
Against ogres mass shooting works really well. There only T4 and are very expensive points wise for how many you get. With armour piercing rule on our xbows 60shots a turn will pretty much destroy his army.

Also I would take black guard over exe every time and also would take them over cold one knights. Like I said there only T4 so running them 6 wide with a crimson death on the unit champion and maybe a plain noble with the battle standard and some armour + ward save and a halberd. And you will shred almost any ogre unit that you run into.

Also if there ironguts with great weapons any return attacks will me smashing models that cost less that 14pts each (not gonna say how much they cost) where as if you had taken a 5man unit of cold ones you would risk loosing models that cost more than 26pts. Its a close call but cold ones are pretty good regardless.

For core lost of xbowmen for special a unit of black guard and cold ones and maybe a hydra and your set. Although if he is your friend you might wanna mix it up a little with crappy units too since if you run a list like that you will probably roll him and then pretty soon you'll be playing by yourself.

Ogres aren't the best army after all.

vladsimpaler
22-06-2010, 21:38
For core lost of xbowmen for special a unit of black guard and cold ones and maybe a hydra and your set. Although if he is your friend you might wanna mix it up a little with crappy units too since if you run a list like that you will probably roll him and then pretty soon you'll be playing by yourself.

Ogres aren't the best army after all.

Hahaha, thanks, this is what I was thinking. I mean I could go with the suggested uber army of crossbowmen with hydra but I'd rather he not get frustrated.

I have a squad of 20 Corsairs that I bought when the Dark Elves first came out because they look cool. Consensus says that they suck so it shouldn't be a big deal.

My friend wants to play 750 as we get started, so I figured that I would go with:

Sorceress (upgraded to Level 2, probably also the Tome of Furion)

20 Corsairs, with the Serpent Standard (Frenzy is really sweet)

Probably 2 units of Crossbowmen

Then maybe 10 or 15 Black Guard

I just graduated high school so I am getting lots of presents and whatnot in the form of money, so I figure that I should get started buying stuff. :)

jesters89
22-06-2010, 21:52
That should be a fun starter list. Also, I was thinking today... Corsairs may not be so bad in 8th edition. They have the ability to weather ranged attacks with a 4+ save and then have a 5+ save in close combat which is as good as it gets for dark elves, excluding characters, monsters, and cavalry. They have two attacks base, plus one supporting attack... three attacks with one support if they have frenzy. With the new step up rules they could be pretty nasty and a little bit survivable... at least as far as glass jaw elves are concerned.

Good luck!

DarkTyrany22
22-06-2010, 23:01
A solid starter list I'd say. I wouldn't say Corsairs are terrible... they're just not as cheap as Spearmen. Frenzy is probably the best banner for them vs. OK, but the AP banner is also pretty nice in their hands, or perhaps for the Black Guard.

vladsimpaler
22-06-2010, 23:24
Yeah, I figured that it was more along the lines of Spearmen being super cheap as opposed to the Corsairs being bad. :)

Also, quick question on the corsairs, how should I rank them up? Like have them with 5 guys and 4 ranks?

Or perhaps maybe more across but with less ranks?

Thoughts on this would be much appreciated. :)

theunwantedbeing
22-06-2010, 23:38
Assuming we are playing with 8th edition rules:
1. Against Ogres, which are better: Executioners or Black Guard?
2. Are COK useful versus Ogres?
3. Sorceress or Master? I'm leaning towards Sorceress but I'm a newb so I don't know.

1. Executionairs, provided you have a nice big unit.
Stepup means fighting first is fairly meaningless, but keep an assasin in the executionairs to be sure you negate some enemy attacks as well as thinning them before they reach you where possible.

2. Yup, st6 and st4 mounts, fast too.

3. Both? You can afford both, so take both!

jesters89
23-06-2010, 04:37
How to rank up units is the big question in 8th. You have two viable options:

1) rank up 5 across and 4 deep for 15 attacks, 20 with frenzy. This gives you a +3 static combat res for ranks; however, after he pummels you, you now lose the bonus immediately whereas in the last edition ranks were counted before causalities were caused. Going up against a full ogre unit putting out 3 str 5 impact hits, 18 attacks (at least), and 3 str 4 stomp attacks (and thats just counting bulls), you can expect to lose as many as 2 full ranks. That said, it may make more sense to go for maximum wounds rather than static res. That bring you to your second option.

2) Run the models 8x3 so that your unit expands corner to corner across the frontage of a 3-wide ogre unit. This would give you only a single static res for ranks; however, you would receive 24 hatred filled attacks. If you have a frenzy banner, add another 8 attacks for 32 attacks. That's pretty disgusting. My guess is since you have the higher initiative, you could expect to knock out a chunk of his attacks with that many swings.

Really, you should just experiment and find what you like-- thats part of the fun!

Darkspear
23-06-2010, 05:06
1. Executionairs, provided you have a nice big unit.
Stepup means fighting first is fairly meaningless, but keep an assasin in the executionairs to be sure you negate some enemy attacks as well as thinning them before they reach you where possible.

2. Yup, st6 and st4 mounts, fast too.

3. Both? You can afford both, so take both!

I would like to disagree with the first point. Executioners are expensive yet fragile soldiers. Stepping up allows the executioner unit to perhaps win their first combat but there may meant incuring so many casualties that the unit will be too diminished to win subsequent combats.

Regarding Cold One Knights, they are useful as long as you do not charge ironguts in the front. We can easily do a lot of damage but with 3 wounds per model, it will only lead to about two dead ironguts. The retaliation will be more than enough to destroy the cold one knight unit. It is widely acknowledged that charging knights into great weapon armed monstrous infantry will lead to disastrous results.

The best unit to take out ogres will be repeater crossbow armed warriors. However it may not lead to a fun game for your opponent.

Archangelion
23-06-2010, 11:26
Keep in mind that you will get to make all your attacks before those dumb ogres too, as the initiative value on your most basic warrior is higher than that of ogres. So they will do their impact hits... and then most likely get stabbed mostly to death.

jesters89
23-06-2010, 14:05
Stabbed to death? I disagree.... Perhaps stabbed to discomfort.

The Ogres' high toughness paired with their high wound values means you will need luck on your side to really wipe them out. That is why you need to maximize attacks. My guess is without a good bit of luck you won't wipe a unit out in a turn. I'd say you win on turn 2 or 3 of combat unless you are particularly lucky.

Archangelion
24-06-2010, 11:30
9 wounds, the DE get a nice high WS, they will strike first, they will re-roll to hit... If you have 20 attacks, even if only half of those hit from the first roll, and the second, that is 15 hits. From there, you will most likely be geting about 6 wounds or so, maybe. But that takes out 2 of the bulls, leaving only one. Against a unit such as Black Guard, their strenth will make up for the number of hits.