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WarmbloodedLizard
21-06-2010, 13:24
I don't know whether I should fill my core with mainly saurus or mainly skinks, so:

the rumours say that spears grant another supporting attack rank. (which would be pretty useless)
now, on heelanhammer.com (http://heelanhammer.com/) Ep. 41, they say the opposite is true: "spears fight in two ranks" without any negatives for charging or cutting of # of attack, etc.

what is the exact wording for 8th ed spears?

Odin
21-06-2010, 13:41
In what way would an extra rank of S4 attacks be "useless"?

WarmbloodedLizard
21-06-2010, 13:52
In what way would an extra rank of S4 attacks be "useless"?

less attacks. of course they are not completely useless but compared to 2 ranks with full attacks + supporting attacks or even compared to HW+Shield, they usually wouldn't really be worth investing points.

in addition, support attacks don't benefit from buffs such as +1 attack, frenzy etc, while "attacking in two rank" would.

Vsurma
21-06-2010, 14:11
In the way that it costs you 100pts for said extra rank of attacks. with a low init and low ws to boot meaning your likely to get little benefit from upping your 18 strong hw/s squad to 24 with spears.

100pts for 1 extra rank and perhaps 1 extra kill per turn (if your opponent is t3 with low or no save...otherwise you get less than 1 extra kill)

Not worth it.

Btw I did look through the book and any attacks after the first count as supporting and are thus 1 attack. It is not the way they said on the podcast, he felt that supporting attacks would start from rank 3 for spears but this is not the case unfortunately.

It really is a shame, saurus would have been decent with spears, now they are not great really.

I will run mine 18 strong with HW/S. (though the killing power isn't great at least they won't die very easily )

That said if you plan on buffing the unit with spells then I think the extra 100pts will definitely be worth it, once you buff them to be S5 or +1 to wound etc.

WarmbloodedLizard
21-06-2010, 14:25
the new book is just so horribly inelegant... (well, they probably made an error in their reasoning, thinking streamlining is always more elegant... or they hope to sell more models that way...)

why would they take away their design options just to be able to generalize the rules.

will probably run them 5x5 with HW/S for the anvils and, like you, 3x6 for the killy ones.

we can still hope for an army book errata, though. (don't really believe in it...^^)

jesters89
21-06-2010, 17:14
Just to clarify, spears allow an additional rank of supporting attacks on any turn that you do not charge. Thus, a unit of 20 spearmen fight in 3 ranks on non-charging turns. However, supporting attacks only receive 1 attack a peice.

decker_cky
21-06-2010, 19:00
Saurus in the 6th book with hand weapon and shield.
In the 7th book during 7th edition, they were no brainer for taking spears.
Now I'd say it's a tradeoff worth considering for the first time.

It's not as good as 2 attacks per model in each rank, but saurus have always had amazingly efficient stats. Now they get slightly less efficient.

IMO saurus are still good (very resilient for their points) and spears are still good on them (who cares what you had a month ago, look at what you have now for what it is).

Nocculum
21-06-2010, 19:23
Not to mention...where did 100 points come from? 25 Saurus, 25 points...18 saurus...18 points last time I checked.

EDIT: Army book trumps BRB still I'd imagine, meaning Saurus would get two ranks at full attacks and one supporting attack rank from the spears or something similar...no?

decker_cky
21-06-2010, 19:26
I think he was calculating adding an extra rank of saurus to take advantage of the attacks.

Nocculum
21-06-2010, 19:49
Ah, now that makes more sense.

If you're running 3X6 now, then it'll not be worth it. However..

If you run them in a 25x5 block, then take spears. It's 25 extra points for 5 extra attacks, and the added insurance of an extra rank.

kaintxu
21-06-2010, 20:50
yep but that 5 extra attacks at WS 3 its 2,5 hits

vs. T4 is 1,25 wounds
vs. T3 is 2 wounds.

factor in the AS

T4 4+AS = 0.83333 wounds
T4 5+AS= 1.04 Woounds

T3 4+AS= 1.33333333333 wounds.
T3 5+AS (usuall one) = 1,66666 wounds

So those 25 points are buying you those wounds.

On the other hand with so many attacks beeing thrown at us due to horde, 2 ranks..., hw/shield 6++ward will be giving you that many saved saurus or maybe even more, so in the end i RC is the same or if you get to save 2 guys, its better with HW/s, and you stick in longer saving on your way 25 points

WarmbloodedLizard
21-06-2010, 23:50
If you run them in a 25x5 block, then take spears. It's 25 extra points for 5 extra attacks, and the added insurance of an extra rank.

stubborn anvils don't need killing power, they need staying power. therefore, the wardsave is more valuable while costing less. for an additional 25 points I could just take 2 more saurus, which would be much better.

decker_cky
21-06-2010, 23:53
25 models won't often be stubborn, and if you're not cheap and 6+ ranks, you go for killing power.

Paraelix
22-06-2010, 00:22
EDIT: Army book trumps BRB still I'd imagine, meaning Saurus would get two ranks at full attacks and one supporting attack rank from the spears or something similar...no?

Lizzie army book didn't invent Spears... They're a game-wide, BRB ruling.

And Saurus are 11 pts... 12 with spears... Why are people quoting 25 and 18?

Personally, I'm running 6x4 with spears. 24 attacks a turn for me :D

WarmbloodedLizard
22-06-2010, 08:16
25 models won't often be stubborn, and if you're not cheap and 6+ ranks, you go for killing power.

but if a unit is stubborn against a 5 rank unit, it is usually has cheaper and weaker models than saurus. Saurus already have the killing power to deal with hordes of weak units.