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Jind_Singh
21-06-2010, 20:03
Hello all,

I am a stanch Warhammer fan but I'm stuck while the new edition book comes out. I've also really wanted to start 40k again - I played with a Space Marine all bike army for a bit but were my heart lies is with Eldar, but I don't like Aspect Warriors!

Is it possible to collect & field a decent all Guardian army? I want ZERO Aspects - the only non-Gaurdian I'll take are Wraithguard, Wraithlords, and Eldar Scouts.

I want lots of Guardians, heavy platforms, their amazing looking vehicles, and BIKES! LOTTSA bikes and Vypers!

So what does the 40k faithful think? Can it be done? And if so what MUST HAVES must I collect?

Other Questions

Q) Vypers - what it is the best weapons build for Vyper squads?
Q) Guardian squads - 20 strong with platform or 10 with a transport?
Q) HQ - 2 Farseers or 1 with an Avatar?
Q) Fire Prisim, Doomweaver, or Grav-Tank?
Q) Warwalkers - what is the best weapons build for a squad of 3?

Thanks all - I'm really excited about making my grand entrance into 40k - so much so that I've took the morning off to build a jetbike and Vyper model!

Kurisu313
21-06-2010, 20:12
I'd suggest;

2 Farseers using Fortune and Doom a lot
2 Squads of Storm Guardians in Wave Serpents for objectives
2-3 Large squads of Guardians hiding in cover, with fortune they are quite tough
1-2 Jet Bike Squads for mobility

A few well placed warlocks with the right abilities (Destrucor or enhance with Storm Guardians, Conceal with Guardians)

Everything else needs to be anti-tank, really. War walkers and Vypers with Bright-lances, Falcons, Fire Prisms.

I think it'll be a stronger army than most people expect.

Lord Damocles
21-06-2010, 20:15
Can it be done?
The Guardian hoard was kind of 'in vogue' towards the end of 4th edition as far as I can remember. Not so great nowadays (to be fair, I never thought it was all that back then either), but not the worst army in 40K.



Q) Vypers - what it is the best weapons build for Vyper squads?
Erm... Missiles? Maybe.

Vypers are a bit overcosted as it is, and are about as resilient as a Grot in a plasma reactor. I've had some success with Missile Launchers on a pair of Vypers, but they're not great.



Q) Guardian squads - 20 strong with platform or 10 with a transport?
Transport. Guardians are squishy.

I'd be tempted to go with Storm Guardians with twin Flamers and Destructer Seer in Wave Serpents for anti-hoard duty (and three templates will also mess up smallish MEQ squads).



Q) HQ - 2 Farseers or 1 with an Avatar?
Depends on what the rest of the army consists of I'd say. Not much point in the Avatar if everything else is meched up.



Q) Fire Prisim, Doomweaver, or Grav-Tank?
Prisms or Gravs for anti-tank duty and annoying objective grabbing.



Q) Warwalkers - what is the best weapons build for a squad of 3?
Generally double Scatter Laser or Scatter Laser and Missile Launcher (coupled with Guide and/or Doom).

Jind_Singh
21-06-2010, 21:22
Thanks guys! Here is a quick 750 point list I toyed with - it contains the models I currently own (and am building) and they won't be in the final army perhaps but will do for now!

Farseer: Doom, guide, spirit stones

10 Guardians, Warlock (destructor), scatter laser
Wave Serpent, twin-linked star cannons, spirit stones

5 Jetbikes, including shuriken cannon upgrade

War Walker, 2 scatter lasers

2 D-Cannon Heavy Weapon Support Batteries

Vyper, Bright Lance, Spirit Stones

This is 750 on the dot - 2 troop choices, anti-horde walker, with some armor penetration units. Not so sure about the upgrades and weapon choices, other than the Walker, loving the idea of two scatter lasers! And love the Vyper with Bright Lance, it's expensive but it looks amazing as a model, and fast enough to get off flank shots on vehicles.

Quinch
21-06-2010, 21:42
I've been toying with the idea of resurrecting my Ulthwe list with a couple of squads of 'Quins. Not technically aspects, but they still have that HtH hitting power.

Capardio
21-06-2010, 21:58
Q) Vypers - what it is the best weapons build for Vyper squads?
Not sure, i think it would be scatter laser. Scatter laser is generally the best eldar heavy weapon.

Q) Guardian squads - 20 strong with platform or 10 with a transport?
If you take defenders go for 10 with a platform.
If you take storms go for 10 (maybe 15) with transport and flamers and a warlock with destructor/enhance

Q) HQ - 2 Farseers or 1 with an Avatar?
If your taking lots of foot guardians i'd say farseer+avatar. avatar is good in foot armies.

Q) Fire Prisim, Doomweaver, or Grav-Tank?
Depends on the army, fire prisms and falcons are both good choices, more so then the nightpsinner. If your taking Zero aspects youll need some anti-tank so i'd say fire prisms. But Falcons with Pulse laser+EML/Brightlance could also do that, although wraithlords do it even better then falcons.

Q) Warwalkers - what is the best weapons build for a squad of 3?
Double scatter laser. Couple it with guide and you get 24 s6 shots which can reroll to hit.



Your list seems alright, but theres some things i would change. Dont put a brightlance on a vyper, bs 3 with only one shot is not gonna do much.
In fact i would drop the vyper, make the guardians storm guardians with flamers, add a jetbike with a shuriken cannon.

I have found jetbikes with shuriken cannons pretty good at picking off side armour, especially rhinos and the like which have armor 11 even at front.
I'm not sure about D-cannons, i have no experience with them. It would be good however if you found the points to include another vehicle, a falcon probably. This list will leave you badly outnumbered against many opponents.

Thud
21-06-2010, 22:20
HOther Questions

Q) Vypers - what it is the best weapons build for Vyper squads?
Q) Guardian squads - 20 strong with platform or 10 with a transport?
Q) HQ - 2 Farseers or 1 with an Avatar?
Q) Fire Prisim, Doomweaver, or Grav-Tank?
Q) Warwalkers - what is the best weapons build for a squad of 3?

On their own, those questions have simple answers. The problem is that combined, those answers will make for a, quite frankly, terrible army.

As for going all Guardian. I guess it could be done. But the main problem with no Aspect Warriors is that you won't have any anti-tank to speak of. Any by anti-tank I mean Fire Dragons. And that is a very big problem.

But, if that's what you want, go for it. Assuming you're aiming for 1,750, I'd do something like this:

HQ:
Autarch w/ jetbike, laser lance, mandiblasters, fusion gun (140)
Farseer w/ guide, runes of warding, singing spear (93)

6 Jetbikes w/ 2 shuriken cannons, Warlock w/ embolden (202)

10 Storm Guardians w/ 2 fusion guns, Warlock w/ singing spear (120)
Wave Serpent w/ TL bright lance, shuriken cannon, spirit stones (155)

10 Storm Guardians w/ 2 fusion guns, Warlock w/ singing spear (120)
Wave Serpent w/ TL bright lance, shuriken cannon, spirit stones (155)

10 Storm Guardians w/ 2 flamers, Warlock w/ destructor (127)
Wave Serpent w/ TL bright lance, shuriken cannon, spirit stones (155)

3x1 Vypers w/ Scatter laser + shuriken cannon (3x70= 210)

Fire Prism w/ spirit stones, shuriken cannon (135)

Fire Prism w/ spirit stones, shuriken cannon (135)

1747 points.

[SD] Bob Plisskin
21-06-2010, 23:43
3x1 Vypers w/ Scatter laser + shuriken cannon (3x70= 210)

Fire Prism w/ spirit stones, shuriken cannon (135)

Fire Prism w/ spirit stones, shuriken cannon (135)

1747 points.

I dont think that vypers with laser and cannon is a good build. 24" is too close for Av10. I Prefer just Scatter laser. they are cheap and the range is much better. Fireprisms should never waste points on cannons either IMO.

As has been stated above, where you really lose out is in anti-tank, with no dragons then anti tank becomes a lot harder.

options are
- 2/3 small guardian jetbike squads with Warlock/ singing spear
- Fire prisms - I use these coupled with S6 weapon spam fairly effectively (S6 weapons for side/rear armour on mid AV armour and the prisms on anything bigger)
- Wraithguard in waveserpent. - not as effective as dragons but a bit more resilient. (but only 5 models)

incarna
22-06-2010, 14:21
Itís going to be difficult to be competitive but I always encourage players to build an army as they see fit. The most competitive buildís Iíve seen with this style of army list have been large squads of guardian defenders with a warlock possessing Embolden backed up by a Wraithlord.

Lacking Fire Dragons youíre going to need some reliable anti-AV and at least two of your Heavy slots should be filled by wraithlords. Some decent alternatives are warlocks on jetbikes, guided vipers, wave serpent mounted storm guardians, and wave serpent mounted wraithguard but my personal favorite is a Farseer in a wave serpent accompanied by up to nine warlocks. This gives you an extremely valuable CC anchor and a just plain nasty unit stomping around in your opponents face.

As to your other questions:

A) I donít consider Vipers competitive for their points. If I was committed to using them Iíd keep them cheep (shuriken cannons) and use them to butter up infantry and skirt behind transports to pop them.

A) Guardians can perform decently in either roll you mentioned. 20 strong squads need to be baby-sat by something with some CC bite or theyíll fold to drop podding dreadnoughts, assault squads, and outflankers. 11 storm guardians with 2 flamers and a warlock w/ destructor is a nice anti-horde unit.

A) Making your guardians fearless can actually be a big liability. Guardians have a high enough I that they have a decent chance of getting away if they break. They die in droves when they start taking no retreat wounds. Leave the Avatar at home unless you want to build a 3 wraithlord + Avatar steamroller.

A) I think your heavy slots need to be occupied by wraithlords to protect your footslogging guardians. I have had a lot of luck with 2 or 3 fire prisms though so thatís a nice alternative.

A) two scatter lasers in my opinion is the best build for war walker squadrons.

mdauben
22-06-2010, 15:43
my heart lies is with Eldar, but I don't like Aspect Warriors!
I think that you can make a competative list with lots of Guardians, but honestly I think that you are going to really struggle without any Aspect Warriors. :(


Q) Vypers - what it is the best weapons build for Vyper squads?
Generally, with BS3 Guardian gunners you want either twin-linked weapons, or multi-shot weapons (or both!). Heavy 1 weapons just don't cut it, IMO. That usually means Scatterlaser, although the Shuricanon isn't bad, either.


Q) Guardian squads - 20 strong with platform or 10 with a transport?
If you are going with the transport, I'd go with Storm Guardians. If you want them on foot, I would go with two smaller squads giving you two platforms, rather than one large squad with only one.


Q) HQ - 2 Farseers or 1 with an Avatar?
Like others have said, for mechdar, go with two Farseers (probably on bikes). For hybrid lists (mech and foot) you could go with the Avatar. For all foot lists I think you really need the Avatar to have any chance of being competative.


Q) Fire Prisim, Doomweaver, or Grav-Tank?
If you don't have any Aspect squads to tuck into the Falcon, I'd go with the Fire Prism.


Q) Warwalkers - what is the best weapons build for a squad of 3?
See Viper recomendations above. ;)

Flying Toaster
22-06-2010, 16:32
Dont underestimate support weapons at all either, i think what your talking about limits you to

Farseer
Warlocks
Eldrad
Avatar
Prince Yriel
Harliequins
Wraithguard
Guardian defenders/storm
jetbikes
rangers/pathfinders
vypers
fire prisms
falcons
wave serpents
war walkers
wraithlords
support platforms

so your not limited as one might think by going all guardian force.

Arbiter7
22-06-2010, 17:51
I second the Avatar bauble. Otherwise take embolden on your warlocks. Guardians die like guardsmen, and they don't have a comissar...

landingshortly
22-06-2010, 19:32
Hello all,

I am a stanch Warhammer fan but I'm stuck while the new edition book comes out. I've also really wanted to start 40k again - I played with a Space Marine all bike army for a bit but were my heart lies is with Eldar, but I don't like Aspect Warriors!

Is it possible to collect & field a decent all Guardian army? I want ZERO Aspects - the only non-Gaurdian I'll take are Wraithguard, Wraithlords, and Eldar Scouts.

I want lots of Guardians, heavy platforms, their amazing looking vehicles, and BIKES! LOTTSA bikes and Vypers!

So what does the 40k faithful think? Can it be done? And if so what MUST HAVES must I collect?

Other Questions

Q) Vypers - what it is the best weapons build for Vyper squads?
Q) Guardian squads - 20 strong with platform or 10 with a transport?
Q) HQ - 2 Farseers or 1 with an Avatar?
Q) Fire Prisim, Doomweaver, or Grav-Tank?
Q) Warwalkers - what is the best weapons build for a squad of 3?

Thanks all - I'm really excited about making my grand entrance into 40k - so much so that I've took the morning off to build a jetbike and Vyper model!

This is a FUN army :) i love it.
If you take hordes and hordes of guardians, also take an avatar. he rocks.

serious stuff:
A) i equip vypers with starcannons because i play loads of marines. you could also do EML and scatter lasers. super annoying.
A) you usually take guardians in 10s as they suck and the only thing they are actually good for is their weapons platform. you should maximize those instead of the guardians. on storm guardians, 10 fit in a serpent ... so 10 it is.
A) depends on what you want to play. i love playing eldrad as i play ulthwe. but playing a fun and fun to play army with guardians, i might even do eldrad+avatar or farseer with guide (super-important for warwalkers, ...)+avatar.
A) the fire prism rocks. take them in pairs. if you are short on heavy support slots, do one voidspinner instead or one prism. falcon is outdated except for a DAVU gunboat. take serpents for the storm guardians.
A) the best loadout is 6x scatter lasers. 24 guided str6 shots are pure awesomeness. they butcher quite something on the battlefield.

if you really do not intend to play with aspects, it's gonna be hard though as you're dropping one of the best, if not, the best eldar unit available: fire dragons. how are you going to crack open tanks?

Sunfang
22-06-2010, 20:40
Opportunity for a brilliant Saim-Hann force.

Everything on jetbikes, which means you could than also do a seer council.

Dr.Clock
22-06-2010, 21:52
I'm a huge fan of guardians.

They routinely win me games... sitting on objectives and adding sweet scatter-laser fire to the mix.

Storm squads are also good: destructor+ flamer is a treat, especially against a doomed target squad.

Still, I would caution against taking NO aspects. They are the icing on the guardian cake...

I usually stick to 11-man storm-guardian units with a warlock for an even 12 models. Enough to fill a serpent. I usually start at the same number of defenders with a scatter-laser and then add pone or two more at the end if I have the points. Embolden is extremely helpful on defenders, but if you're playing a horde force, those extra templates will be very helpful.

Also: singing spears save lives. Eldar, for some reason, have a difficult time with heavy armour... singing spears let you over come that as the transports and walkers approach and can buy valuable time to get away.

I'd probably start with a unit of each type of guardian... defenders on foot, stormies mounted.

Then, those units need support. I'd probably get at least one wraithlord for the infantry and a mounted (bikes or transport) seer council for the stormies. The council doesn't have to be large: I usually stick to around 6, with three destructors, 3 spears, embolden and enhance. Tack a farseer with just a fortune power on there and you've got a mobile, multi-purpose unit that can stick it out with just about any unit on the board.

For the other hq: a farseer on a bike with doom can fly from unit to unit and make sure that things die when you shoot at them. If you have the points, give him fortune as well to make sure your infantry can weather the storm.

Rangers are decent: a unit of eight or so can ruin MCs and heavy infantry: try and shoot at things that are already doomed. Don't go overboard. One unit of these is usually enough... and use guardians to babysit objectives: rangers should be in the best firing nest on the board and far from the action...

By the time you've taken four guardian units and a seer-council, it should be pretty clear that you are playing Ulthwe. Ulthwe do have aspect warriors... of all types.

I LOVE scorpions and spiders and to me they, alongside reapers, are the best fits for a balanced ulthwe force. A unit of scorpions to protect those infantry guardians is necessary in my mind. So too the speed and elusiveness of the spiders: they can stop advances cold by applying firepower where you need it most... last game each of my two small units accounted for a Daemon prince each (and after the dragons flubbed horribly).

I'm not saying that you can't win without aspects, I'm just saying that they are actually the perfect compliment to a well-balanced guardian focussed force and that there is very little fluff basis for denying an Ulthwe force their use.

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

Gorbad Ironclaw
23-06-2010, 06:16
The real problem is that to win with a Guardian based forced you really have to maximise all the non-Guardian elements because Guardians are really not that good. (It's also rather unfluffy but that's a side point really)
You need to find a way to compensate for there low range and limited punch and survivability. So all the heavy weaponry and other tricks you feel you can justify fielding will go well in there.

Also think about a couple of small jet bike squads. There primary job would be to wait for the right moment (preferably last turn) to pounce on objectives you are otherwise not able to get to, contesting them or even capturing them if left undefended.

shabbadoo
23-06-2010, 09:02
All Guardian armies can be serious threat, as when people think of facing Eldar it is one of the last army builds they will expect to face.

Guardian Defenders are the weak element of the list(weapon range basically), but still make decent Assault units/objective holders. They work well on foot in waves; especially when backed up by Storm Guardians and screened with a Seer Council with Fortune going(i.e. everything behind them gets a 4+ cover save). Yes, advancing Guardian Defenders will get killed, but something always has to die(Warlocks with Embolden will help to ensure that units will not likely run away). Just make sure your follow-up units are positioned to bring as much firepower to bear on whatever has killed them, or is in a position to Assault the enemy. Storm Guardians that are able to fire and then Assault will actually do pretty well against most units.

Also, try to build what synergy you can within your Guardians units. For Storm Guardians that means flamers or fusion guns with a Warlock with a singing spear and Destructor. For Guardian Defenders that means that means a Warlock with a singing spear and Embolden, plus any other heavy weapon. The Eldar Missile Launcher is a good weapon due to its versatility. It can pop a tank in conjunction with a singing spear thrown from the Warlock(if in range) or it can lay a blast template on troops along with shuriken catapult fire(if in range).

Warlocks- include a good amount of them with singing spears. It is a dirt cheap vehicle killer, and will keep Walkers from mauling your units without fear. A Seer Council doesn't need to have ALL singing spears, but I would put at least 3 or 4 of them in a full-sized unit. The Seer Council will almost definitely get Assaulted at some point, and you will want as many 2+ wounding attacks as you can get, so witch blades do have a purpose too.

Vypers are good, but I would keep them cheap and use them to snipe on things. So, don't bother upgrading the shuriken catapult and be sure to move over 6" and snipe at stuff with your one good weapon.

A couple of 3-man Jetbike units are good as Gorbad Ironclaw said.

Support weapon are rather inexpensive, and while they are somewhat short on range they pack a serious punch. I prefer D-Cannons to put the fear of Eldanesh into the enemy. Go with two full batteries of them. Remember that *ANYTHING* the blast template touches feels a D-Cannon' full affect, unlike most other blast weapons where *the hole* in the blast template has to be over part of the vehicle. :cool:

War Walkers- I prefer to keep them less expensive so I arm them with either a scatter laser and starcannon(anti-any Infantry/anti-light vehicle), two scatter lasers(anti-infantry/anti-light vehicle), or a scatter laser and an EML(anti-infantry/anti-vehicle). Twin bright lances are just too expensive on such a fragile unit in my opinion. Choose the configuration that best compliments the weapon load-out in your other units.

Wave serpents- either go with close range anti-infantry support in the form of twin shuriken cannons(cheap, and you WILL be in range to use them when you drop off the transported unit), or go with twin bright lances for anti-armor support. You can also go with twin-EMLs for a more balanced(i.e. "all-comers") support role.

Jind_Singh
26-06-2010, 03:55
For heavy support I am won over by (for now, unless you say otherwise)

1) 3 Heavy platforms with D-Cannons
2) 3 War Walkers with twin Scatter
3) Falcon (Prism was in for a while but one weapon destroyed result turns it into scrap! At least with a Falcon I have 2 decent weapon platforms with the under slung cannon)

For fast

1) 3 Vypers with Bright Lances - only because the models look so epic with bright lances! Expensive though! For their armor value and open-topped they won't last long but hey, they will look great as they blow up in tiny pieces!

For Troops

I am going for EML for the platforms for at LEAST 2 squads, and then I'll debate the other 2 squads
2 bike squads

HQ - Farseer, maybe 2

I have to cost the army up to see what it's setting me back - I'll post an actual list once this is done!

Jind_Singh
26-06-2010, 04:39
for e.g. a quick list I bashed out (not quite optimal but it's a starting point)

HQ

Farseer, spirit stones, doom, guide
Farseer, spirit stones, doom, guide

Troop

10 Guardians, Warlock, conceal, EML, wave serpent, TL Bright lance, spirit stones
10 Guardians, Warlock, conceal, EML, wave serpent, TL Bright lance, spirit stones
10 Guardians, Warlock, conceal, EML
10 Guardians, Warlock, conceal, EML
4 Jetbikes, inc shuriken upgrade
3 jetbikes

Fast Attack

3 Vypers, Bright Lance

Heavy

Fire Prisim, Pulsar, Bright Lance, Shuriken cannon, holo fields, spirit stones
3 D-Cannon platforms
3 Walkers, scatter lasers

1999 on the nose!

Dr.Clock
26-06-2010, 06:18
re: list...

Farseers: nice. Fortune on one of them will really help you hold the line though.

Guardians: with all the 4+ cover floating around, conceal isn't as good as it used to be. If it gave the unit stealth, it would be worth it but, for my points, Embolden is usually better as it keeps the unit effective through the worst of it.

Also: Defenders in serpents? Why? I'd go with flamestorm (dual flamer and destructor) every time: great for horde clearance.

Also: the infantry defenders could really use singing spears: changing the powers and weapons around as suggested saves you 46 points - so with 2 spears that's an even 40 - enough for one more bike w/ cannon in the smaller unit.

transports: decent.

jetbikes: sure... see above

Vypers: not entirely sure on this one... those are pricy little numbers but they do add to armour saturation... just remember to stay outside bolter range!

Fire Prism: from the armament, I assume this is a falcon?? This thing will always be moving over 6"... Bright Lance and cannon upgrade are too expensive: I'd stick with the classic pulse laser/scatter.

However, without anything to transport, this unit fits poorly in the list. I'd take an EML/BL Wraithlord instead. You'll be getting a similar amount of fire our of it with similar resilience and the added benefit of SOME heavy CC support for the infantry defenders.

Platforms: no experience with these... but interesting and 'retro'.

Walkers: nice. I envision these hanging out in the back close to a defender squad with one of the farseers for Guide. Will work a treat. I'd probably drop the guardian EMLs for scatters give the walkers EML/Scatter to maximize guide on the S8 single-shot fire. Just a thought.

IN all... a nice departure from mech eldar.

The only thing I think you're really missing is a seer council. You can get a decent one (5 members) for around 200 points. Making the changes already suggested plus dropping a vyper, walker and changing one farseer to having just Fortune for them would accomplish this without totally changing the list. Then you'd have one farseer hanging out Guiding the Walkers in the back with one defender unit while the other advances with the council and Wraithlord with supporting fire from the platforms - skimmers advance to harass the flanks... ??? Profit.

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

Flying Toaster
26-06-2010, 11:05
Vibrocannons and Shadow Weavers are also good if you ever want an alternative to D-cannons. (or want to save some points)

also consider an avatar if you take a wraithlord the good doctor is suggesting, a tag team like that can cut through most things in combat.

yeah, vypers with bright lances are kinda too expensive, you may want to fit something else in rather than those

also cutting out the warlocks in the guardian squads cheapens them considerably, allowing you to play with more points, you could always stick them with the Farseer to give him a council.

a 10 man guardian squad with EML is 100pts, very good for its price really.

maybe have a small harliequins squad as a counter assault unit as well?

If only you could take Fire Prisms in squadrons....

Lothlanathorian
26-06-2010, 11:17
I can't help with ideas for your army, but I would like to ask you one question since I am genuinely curious: 'Why?'

Why all Guardians and no Aspects? Not even Dire Avengers? I've personally thought that, were I to ever start an Eldar army (see: unlikely), I'd use all Dire Avengers and no Guardians. So, I am curious as to your motivations for this force.

Iracundus
26-06-2010, 14:03
Black Guardians of Ulthwe come to mind.

DeviantApostle
26-06-2010, 15:49
Having played a Black Guardian force back when they could get BS4, I wish the OP better luck than I had. I experimented with force selections, troop mixes, and played more than a hundred games. I lost every single game. And this was way back in 3rd before Mech's star rose with 5th.

IG works because you can stand downrange and shoot. Heck, with orders these days, their fire is almost as effective at 24" inches as Guardians is at 12". Oh, and if you do get within that 12" you'll be assaulted in the enemy's turn and die. If he's in a transport, he'll just roll on up into the 12" killzone, hop out and rapid fire the Guardians to death. If he doesn't feel like disembarking for some reason, he's completely immune to the Guardians unless they have a Bright Lance, at which point you can't shoot at the guys who leap out of it even if you do pop it.

IMO, they're too expensive to just be for scoring objectives. The Eldar army thrives on its diverse specialist units, I just don't see an all-guardian force being effective. If you're keen on it, though, my advice would be to mechanize and don't go all in and eschew all the Aspect warriors. Spam Fire Prisms and War Walkers probably led by Jetbike Seer Councils.

Good luck.

Commissar Davis
26-06-2010, 16:00
If you ask your friends, they may let you use the Eye of Terror codex for your Eldar formation. Black Guardians have some really cool rules, and is a Guardian force.

Iracundus
26-06-2010, 16:21
Spam Fire Prisms and War Walkers probably led by Jetbike Seer Councils.


Spamming War Walkers is probably your best bet of getting enough heavy weapons fire out, but they'll be fragile.

Jind_Singh
26-06-2010, 18:47
I can't help with ideas for your army, but I would like to ask you one question since I am genuinely curious: 'Why?'

Why all Guardians and no Aspects? Not even Dire Avengers? I've personally thought that, were I to ever start an Eldar army (see: unlikely), I'd use all Dire Avengers and no Guardians. So, I am curious as to your motivations for this force.

Because I love the look of them! Back when Epic was great (called Titan Legions) I had a vast Craft World of Guardians and I loved it! In 40k their models look fantastic, and I love their concept.

Something else I've always been a fan of - the Under Dog! In fantasy I play a 100% all Goblin army, for the same reasons as Guardians they can't even use a hot knife to cut butter! They are that bad! And yet during my run with them they became one of the most respected and feared armies out there!

I want to see if I can do the same with the Guardians! I don't think I can, as it's a bit more cut & dried in 40k, some units really don't hold their own at all, and I really wish the catapult was at least 16 or 18" range v's 12" as 12" is an open invitation for a kicking! But I'll give it a shot anyway!

And another inspiration was a joke some IG player told me once:

One Imperial Guardsman to another, they are in a trench on some blood soaked battlefield.
"For every Imperial Guardsman there are a 1000 space marines"

Made me giggle, and same goes for the Aspects - the Eldar are a dying race, they don't really have that many numbers, and yet if the ratio of Guardian to Aspect were true the entire race would have to be fighting mad!

Also my craftworld - Jin-Toc - is close to Yme-Loc and Ulthwe - i.e. around the eye of terror. For similar reason to Ulthwe the larger proportion of the craftworld are pskers. Basically gives me a chance to build Ulthwe but I didn't want the typical bone and black scheme - I'd rather do a dark grey with orange heads.

Jind_Singh
26-06-2010, 19:29
The 1st 500 points

Warlock, Guide

5 Jetbikes
10 Guardians, EML platform, Warlock with Embolden

Vyper, Bright Lance

D-Cannon Support battery

War Walker, twin Scatter Laser

500 points on the dot!

Great variety of models, and is paint-able in a short space of time! What you all think?

Lothlanathorian
26-06-2010, 21:22
Well, sir, I wish you the best of luck and may your opponents dice chip and shatter...er, roll poorly.

Awilla the Hun
26-06-2010, 21:35
May the hordes of the Eldar Proletariat crush all who dare stand before them!

Lord_Squinty
27-06-2010, 02:32
Opportunity for a brilliant Saim-Hann force.

Everything on jetbikes, which means you could than also do a seer council.

EPIC FACEPALM :wtf: :shifty:

You could do it - but its so wrong.....


The 1st 500 points

Warlock, Guide

5 Jetbikes
10 Guardians, EML platform, Warlock with Embolden

Vyper, Bright Lance

D-Cannon Support battery

War Walker, twin Scatter Laser

500 points on the dot!

Great variety of models, and is paint-able in a short space of time! What you all think?


This I like -

Maybe swap out the Vyper for a scatter laser and D-cannons to vybrocannons. But thats just options.
And guessing he meant Farseer, Guide.

For an All-Guardian force, the Prism cannon and webspinner falcon variants are good choices too.

shabbadoo
27-06-2010, 02:34
I would adjust your list as follows:

HQ(Farseers each join a Storm Guardians squad, in the order they appear)

123 Farseer, spirit stones, doom, guide
123 Farseer, spirit stones, doom, guide, singing spear

Troop

280 10 Storm Guardians, 2 flamers, Warlock, enhance; wave serpent, TL Bright lance, spirit stones
270 10 Storm Guardians, 2 fusion guns, Warlock, singing spear, enhance; wave serpent, TL Bright lance
140 10 Guardians, Warlock, conceal, EML
140 10 Guardians, Warlock, conceal, EML
224 7 Jetbikes, 2 shuriken cannons, Warlock, singing spear, embolden

Fast Attack

75 1 Vyper, Bright Lance
75 1 Vyper, Bright Lance
65 1 Vyper, EML

Heavy

160 Fire Prism, Pulsar, Bright Lance, Shuriken cannon, holo fields, spirit stones
150 3 D-Cannon platforms
180 3 Walkers, scatter lasers

1,999 on the nose!(50 Infantry, 9 Vehicles, 3 Artillery)

If not taking a Seer council, this is pretty close to what I would run. I would toy with taking out the Fire Prism and including a Wraithlord w/bright lance instead to advance alongside the two Guardian Defender squads in support of them. I would try out both configurations a few times to see which One I preferred, and which one, in practice, supports the rest of the list the best.

Jind_Singh
27-06-2010, 22:32
An interesting selection - quick question, for the Storm Guardians, why has the Warlock got embolden over destructor? I'd have thought 3 templates would be the way to go before an assault.
And another question - why would both farseers be hanging out with the Storms - I'd have expected at least one to hang back and guide the war walkers with twin scatter lasers!
I would be very interested in your reasoning

Gorbad Ironclaw
27-06-2010, 22:40
Made me giggle, and same goes for the Aspects - the Eldar are a dying race, they don't really have that many numbers, and yet if the ratio of Guardian to Aspect were true the entire race would have to be fighting mad!


Not really. The Aspect Warriors are the standing army of the Eldar race. Guardians are more like a citizen militia, drafted in when there is a great need for extra bodies. So the more guardians you got in the army the more fighting crazy they are!

clansman
27-06-2010, 23:27
great idea, go guardians! Makes a huge change from all the standard online eldar advice of boredom ( fire dragonsx3 wave serpentx8 etc), It'll be interesting to see how they play or read a battle report or two. More folk should be trying out the supposedly "weak" army builds in their codex, good for you dude!

Jind_Singh
29-06-2010, 16:21
Question on Storm Guardian models - are they metal or plastic? I pray they are not metal!
Does anyone know?

FabricatorGeneralMike
29-06-2010, 18:05
Question on Storm Guardian models - are they metal or plastic? I pray they are not metal!
Does anyone know?

Whats wrong with all metal??? I guess its time for the Sisters to take out the xenos scum eldar ;)

I think the SG are metal as you get 8 of them for $40 Canadian, or they are a hybred kit.

Sildani
29-06-2010, 18:19
They're hybrids. Standard Guardian sprues with metal arms and Ulthwe heads. You get 8 in a package.

The one thing I'm not sure about is how many CC arms you get. If you get 8 in addition to the flamer/fusion guns, you can cheaply get a squad of 10 by buying the push-fit Guardian box and doing some light converting. If you get six CC arms, plus the guns, then you might want to pillage a DA box.

Firmlog
29-06-2010, 20:51
I've played guardian heavy army since 3rd ed. Unfortunately I've always used some aspect warriors, Banshees, firedragons, Dark Reapers, and in previous ed. of the codex, swooping hawks.

IF you are playing a competitive list I would bring

at least one 9-12 size squad of jetbikes, with warlock (possibly 2)
3-4 guardian squads with platforms,
1-2 squads of cc guardians in wave serpents, ( I think this is a good idea, though personally I would go with bike squads for that job. Cap obj. on later turns keep the bikes out of LOS.)
Or, you could do 1-2 squads near the Avatar, if you are going wraithlord heavy.

I'd like to see a 2-3 squads of war walkers for anti tank. (This would be very expensive though and going with an avatar and 3 wraith lords seems slightly more cost effective. But I don't know if you would be able to kill as many tanks. Also you might get some cries of cheese with 3 wraithlords.)

Vipers and Fireprisms (especially with the new models) would be very cool if you are doing Saim Hain.

For your HQ, I'd go with the Iyanden spec char. or a farseer command squad with spears on bikes. Again, very expensive but gives decent anti tank and and 18 range, to attack targets with lots of mobility, survivability, and you can always back away from the targets in the assault phase to stay out of cc range.

To summarize:

Ulthwe'

Avatar
Farseer w/ command most of which is split off to support wraithlords
Or, Iyanden spec. char.

4 guardians sq. with weapon batties mostly starcannons, and warlocks
2 large squads of guardians with warlocks
and/or a squad or 2 of scouts.



3 sq. of warwalkers or 3 squads of Wraithlords.

Saim Hain

Autarch on bike
Farseer command squad on bikes. singing spears

4 squads of bike at least 9 strong, shuriken cannons add warlocks.
2 squads of scouts.

Vipers with bright lances

Fireprisms at least 2 preferably 3

I don't know about what warlock powers to get. I keep hearing about the flame template power, but have yet to have any usefullness out of it. I usually go with conceal for a 5+ inv. save. Though I do try to use the flame template spell on bike squads but conceal has been more effective.

Setesh
01-07-2010, 11:07
I like the idea of an all guardian force, and much like you, I also find it fun to play the underdog! Just make sure you have some storm guardians in wave serpents and a squad or two of jetbikes to capture objectives last minute!

I'd be interested to see how you fare as I'm also building an Ulthwe force as a side project and that guy above seemed to think that guardian armies can't win ;)

shabbadoo
03-07-2010, 13:33
An interesting selection - quick question, for the Storm Guardians, why has the Warlock got embolden over destructor? I'd have thought 3 templates would be the way to go before an assault.

And another question - why would both farseers be hanging out with the Storms - I'd have expected at least one to hang back and guide the war walkers with twin scatter lasers!
I would be very interested in your reasoning

The first Storm Guardians squad is as it is supposed to be, mostly, but the Warlock should have a witch blade. The intention is to have the Farseer accompanying this squad to Doom whatever unit it is shooting with its Guided flamers, Destructor, and pistols. The Farseer in this unit should actually have a witch blade too, as the unit is meant to throw more attacks when not flaming stuff, and do so at +1 WS and +1 I. With the two witch blades vehicles can be threatened too, so it also keeps the unit safe from being tar-pitted by Walkers or the few T 7+ enemies out there. Enhance allows the entire unit to strike first against most opponents as well. if no enemy Infantry are around to be flamered, the unit can Move, Fleet, and Assault any nearby vehicle and likely destroy it with 6 witch blade attacks. The equipment swap frees up 6 points. Not sure where to put it.

The second Storm Guardians squad is fine as it is. The unit is really meant to go after top notch vehicles, and after that super tough enemies or heavy infantry. They use Guide(and Doom on non-vheicle targets) for their shooty weapons of death. If they are taking on a vehicle, The Farseer can Doom a different enemy unit for other Eldar squads to put shots or attacks on.

The 2 Farseers are hanging out with the Storm Guardians because, overall, they are armed for up-close work, as their singing spears are part of this army's anti-vehicle/super tough things component. They are also there to keep something like a Sentinel from tar-pitting the unit, or to take out a Walker with some actual battle capability that comes to play with them. Sure, the Warlock also has a signing spear, but the Warlock only has 1 attack with it. Adding the Farseer in with one adds 1 more of those attacks at least.

One other important note. With Conceal, the two Guardians Defender units are meant to advance on thee enemy in support of the Storm Guardians, such that, if the the enemy wipes out the Storm Guardians, the Guardian Defenders will be in position to move and fire in retaliation themselves. The faster units in the army also serve to add their support wherever it may be needed. Overall, this army has a lot of units that can do bad things to a variety of unit types, ans so the threat potential is spread very broadly. This army has no real Hammer unit, so everything needs to be able to be a functional threat.

I would also have the Vypers maneuver near the Farseers when possible so that Guide can be used on them as well. As to the Warwalkers, the choice of not putting a Farseer babysitting them is a tactical one. Warwalkers with a Farseer are a HUGE threat. Without one, they are not such a big threat. They are still good on their own though, with 24 shots coming from the squadron(nothing to sneeze at). Wherever the Farseers are then becomes where a threat too, and the rather cheap Storm Guardian units can certainly be a real threat. The idea here is to spread the threat level out. Overall this helps the army in that, even if one unit is obliterated, a good amount of threat remains. Spread the eggs out rather than put them all in one basket basically. If also make the choice of what to target a lot more difficult for your opponent, and any additional factors which may cause your opponents to make tactical errors is always a good thing.

See? It's very much about screwing with your opponent's head as well as playing more smarterer...er. :evilgrin:

I hope the method to the madness is now more apparent. ;)

EDIT: I fixed the army list, and put 5 of the 6 points back in by reconfiguring the third Vyper.

Jind_Singh
19-07-2010, 16:59
So the dream is turning sour! I have been busy assembling the models in my spare time...

Vyper was 1st to be constructed, went together nice and easy, pretty quick, and looks bloody gorgeous!
A jetbike soon followed, even primed it as it was done that fast.
Next up - a D-Cannon heavy platform, took a little bit of time as it's an extensive multipart kit and the Guardian sitting on the seat takes a bit of trickery to pose properly.

Guardians....WOW! TEN Pieces a model! INSANE! And they have so many mold lines it's not even funny! Over the time it's taken to assemble 30 Night Goblins I have 5 of the Guardians done with their support platform - it's a slow and long process!

It's going to be a while before I can assemble this army!

And I also see now why so many Guardian players assemble their models so the left hand doesn't cradle the catapult - it's not easy! I did it with my 3 boys but yeah, what a tough little kit - they look great when assembled though.

Xarian
19-07-2010, 18:50
Vypers are somewhat cost-effective when used with the cheapest weapons available (shuriken cannons). It's harder to keep them alive because of the range, but you can do your best to use cover. They are effective anti-tank weapons as long as you can go for rear armor (so, no land raiders or monoliths).

My most effective anti-tank vehicle in history is an all-shuriken cannon wave serpent. It likes to eat predators.

I would never put a bright lance on a vyper. That's like putting a hemi in an edsel.

Jind_Singh
17-08-2010, 09:16
So I finally got my 1st portion assembled and sprayed them purple! White helmets are next and then detailing them - but I thought of the following list to make a nice, solid, 2000 pt force - what do you all think:

Farseer, spirit stones, guide, doom
Farseer, spirit stones, guide, doom

12 Guardians, EML, Warlock, destructor
Wave Serpent, spirit stones, Shuriken Cannon, twin-linked Bright Lance
12 Guardians, EML, Warlock, destructor
Wave Serpent, spirit stones, Shuriken Cannon, twin-linked Bright Lance
4 Jet-bikes, including Shuriken Cannon
4 Jet-bikes, including Shuriken Cannon
4 Jet-bikes, including Shuriken Cannon
4 Jet-bikes, including Shuriken Cannon

Vyper, Bright Lance
Vyper, Bright Lance
Vyper, Bright Lance

Falcon, holofields, spirit stones, Pulsar, Bright Lance, Shuriken Cannon
3 War Walkers, 2 Scatter Lasers
3 Eldar D-Cannon Support Weapon Batteries

THAT'S IT! 1999 on the dot and it's full of all things Guardian! The rationale behind the list is:

HQs - standard Farseer whose role is to help support my attacks with guides and dooms - especially handy to help out my War Walkers or the Falcon

Troops - 2 units of Guardians to take objectives if needs be, or they can garrison an objective in my deployment zone with their EML. If they do need to pressed into front-line duties I can use the destructor to help soften the enemy before attempting close combat - don't forget the catapults can cause damage at short range so it's not as suicidal as it first appears! Their transports are scary enough that the enemy will have to do some fast target priority - long range lances and D-Cannons help me to peg armor from afar while Guardians and Jet bikes soften up infantry units that are weak enough to be assaulted.
So what does everything one think?

Setesh
17-08-2010, 09:24
Plenty of bright lances and target saturation, looks like a very good list to me, very unconventional. Let us know how it gets on eh?

Jind_Singh
17-08-2010, 16:20
Thanks - my only concerns are v's the horde armies as I lack the numbers to hold back the hordes! I could destroy 1 horde unit in a turn - or reduce it's combat effectiveness to the point it doesn't count, and I could knock out any armor accompanying them, but the actual hordes....I know an orc player whose 6 troop choices are the full 30 boyz, he takes a big mek with force field, and then any points left over are converted into killa-kans which screen the orc boyz as they advance - simple yet deadly tactic!
This is were the jet bikes would help for a bit - and why I took so many shuriken cannon upgrades in case I run into horde armies.