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IcedAnimals
21-06-2010, 21:51
In light of making another thread that will be a poll I am gathering candidates for the worst units in the game. To see what is truly the worst unit you could possibly field. So lets hear your reasoning for why a unit is the worst of the worst.

This is what I have so far.

Witchhunters: Repentia
Daemons: Furies
Eldar: Shining Spears or Guardians.
Chaos Marines: Chaos Spawn.
Black Templars: Landspeeder typhoon
Blood Angels: Death company seem far over priced with too many negatives but I haven't looked much at the codex
Daemonhunters: Daemonhosts
Dark Eldar: Hellions
Imperial Guard: Nork.
Necrons: Flayed ones.
Orks: Flash Gitz
Marines: Honorguard
Space wolves: Bjorn the Fel Handed
Tau: Ethereal.
Nids: pyrovor?
Dark Angels: Ezekiel

Feel free to make corrections or post lists of your own. I will then take the general consensus and try to figure out who is THE worst unit in the game.

EDIT: changing the list due to the general consensus of units. changes made. *chaos dreadnaught replaced with chaos spawn. *grotesques and mandrakes replaced with Hellions. *Ogryns replaced with Nork. *Stormboyz replaced with Flash Gitz (Which surprises me as I have seen them used to decent effect and assault 2 str 6 guns and one of the few units with a decent save in the ork codex, just don't give them the gets hot upgrade) *Adding "Bjorn" as the space wolf candidate. Replacing Blood Claws *Also removing "melee based inquisitor" from witch hunter list. As the unit can at least choose to not go melee, something repentia can't do. *adding Dark Angels with their entree into the competition as Ezekiel.

I will need further convincing that pariah aren't somewhat more useful than flayed ones however. While losing necron they ignore invuln saves and increase the effectiveness of the deceiver. And still have a nice ranged attack. In small point value games taking both is not a good choice but in 2k and up ive seen them worked to deadly effect. Something I can not say about flayed ones at any level of play.

Now for eldar there seems to be people saying swooping hawks have uses, and that shining spears and guardians are worse. So which do people think takes the cake for eldar?

toonboy78
21-06-2010, 21:56
most of that looks spot on.

vanguard while not the worst unit they are so over priced.

maybe honour guard could go on that list as again they are expensive

Simo429
21-06-2010, 21:59
Wolves some would say TWC for the ridiculous nature of them but I love them I just wish there were some models for the buggers

Why Ogryns?

SweetLou
21-06-2010, 22:01
pariah<flayed ones

stormboys< flash gitz

RampagingRavener
21-06-2010, 22:02
Eldar: Swooping Hawks?
Chaos Marines: Chaos Dreadnaught.
Imperial Guard: I would say ogryn.
Necrons: Flayed ones.
Orks: Stormboyz.
Marines: Vanguard.

These stand out as not quite right.

For Eldar, Guardians - be they Storm or Defender - would rank fairly highly. Hawks do at least have some niche use with Haywire grenades.

Chaos Marines, it simply HAS to be Chaos Spawn, and I'm not sure how anyone could ever think otherwise. They're slow, they're easy to kill, they're terrible in combat. IIRC they also have Rage, so they're easily baited into attacking things they can't possibly hurt. And they ain't cheap either.

Imperial Guard, gotta be Enginseers, for reasons similar to Techmarines.

For Necrons, Pariahs. Flayed Ones ARE still Necrons - taking them cuts down the firepower you put out but they don't make it easier for the enemy to phase you out. They can also be teleported, via a Monolith portal or Veil of Darkness, plus Deep Strike, so can be moved relatively quickly around the battlefield. Pariahs are slow, expensive, cut into your Phase Out limit, and frankly despite their Warscythes, don't have enough I or A to put them to good use.

Orks, I still maintain it's Flash Gitz. Stormboyz are just pricier, faster Boyz - they pay for Jump Packs rather than a Trukk and aren't forced into small Mob sizes. Flash Gits, however, are expensive, don't get enough shots to overcome their low accuracy, and their shots aren't punchy enough without piling on the upgrades, which makes them even more expensive and adds Gets Hot.

Lone Techmarines for Space Marines are just...worthless, really. They're free Kill Points for your opponent. I don't think I've ever seen someone take one. For the points you spend on a guy to fix your vehicles, you're better off just grabbing another cheap vehicle, like a Land Speeder or whatever.

Capardio
21-06-2010, 22:04
I love ogryns... expensive but they kill anythign they charge.
I'd say penal legions are the worst guard units, theyre pretty expensive and too random. Even with all those special rules theyre not much good.

Havarel
21-06-2010, 22:05
Like the list! The only entry I'd argue with is for CSM: surely the Spawn is far, far worse than the chaos dread. I'm slightly biased in that I like the dread, but the spawn...

Thud
21-06-2010, 22:06
Chaos Marines: Chaos Dreadnaught.

Chaos Spawn make Dreadnoughts look positively awesome.


Dark Eldar: Grotesques or mandrakes.

You may be forgiven for allowing it to slip your mind, but there's actually a Heavy Support unit in the Dark Eldar codex called "Scourges" so hellishly bad that no one on the planet has actually fielded it since 2001. And that time it was just some dude who did it as a joke.


Necrons: Flayed ones.

Pariahs are a strong contender, pulling the Necron amount so low that a deep strike mishap will cause you to auto-lose. Bonus points for including a C'tan and a couple of Monoliths in the same army as Pariahs.


Orks: Stormboyz.

Flash Gitz aren't exactly hot stuff either. And when was the last time you saw someone use a Weirdboy? Or even acknowledge its existence?

Raditz
21-06-2010, 22:12
Imperial Guard: I would say ogryn.


Nork would make this correct.

Chaos Would be spawn. The only time one is ever useful is for sh*ts and giggles with gift of chaos, outside of a killpoint game.

genestealer_baldric
21-06-2010, 22:12
Flash Gitz aren't exactly hot stuff either. And when was the last time you saw someone use a Weirdboy? Or even acknowledge its existence?


weirdboys make it into all but my tourni lists i love the random nature.

but cannons batterys for orks and eldar have never ever been near any table ive seen or heard of.

Justicar Valius
21-06-2010, 22:12
For Daemonhunters is this thing called a barrage bomb or as you say melee inquisitors (Includong Coteaz?).

EmperorEternalXIX
21-06-2010, 22:13
The Space Wolves don't really have a "bad" unit. I think the one that most people would consider "least good" is the Blood Claws, but that is only in relation to the Grey Hunter. None of the units is really "poor" by any stretch of the imagination.

[SD] Bob Plisskin
21-06-2010, 22:19
I don't think I've ever seen Fuegan the Burning Lance since the release of the last Eldar codex.

The Red Pilgrim
21-06-2010, 22:25
Chaos spawns win by a landslide.

AFnord
21-06-2010, 22:27
but cannons batterys for orks and eldar have never ever been near any table ive seen or heard of.
Kannons & lobbas are great for their point cost (which is incredibly low), zzapguns are not so good. As for eldar, it takes a special kind of eldar army for their platforms to work, but they are not actually bad.


Eldar: Swooping Hawks?
While swooping hawks might not be the best unit ever, they have their use. Shining spears don't seem to be very good for their point cost though.

Chaos Marines: Chaos Dreadnaught.
How about spawns? They are far far worse. Dreads at least have enough of a damage potential to work as a distraction, and with the right kind of dread in the right kind of list, fire frenzy is an annoyance, not a threat.

Dark Eldar: Grotesques or mandrakes.
What about hellions? Grotesques are simply a victim of edition change, back in 3rd edition they at least had a use. And someone mentioned scourges earlier. Scourges with splinter cannons are not bad at clearing out exposed units with poor as. 16 S4 shots at 24" range is something that certain armies dislike.

Imperial Guard: I would say ogryn.
Ogryns are decent tarpits, and counter chargers. They don't fit into mechanized armies all that well, but they work for gunline armies.

Necrons: Flayed ones.
Pariahs are far worse

Orks: Stormboyz.
Stormboyz are not bad. A unit of 12 stormboyz costs slightly more than a trukkmounted mob, but they are not reliant on their transport, ignores terrain and are darn fast. This unit is good if you can use it. Flash gitz are not so good.

Nids: pyrovor?
Poor pyrovores, noone likes them. :( At least their model is cool.

druchii
21-06-2010, 22:30
Demons:
Beasts of Nurgle are worse than Furies by a mile. And heralds of Nurgle. Poor guys.

d

tuebor
21-06-2010, 22:52
For IG I'd say it is either Priests of Techpriests. They're both far overpriced for what they do, and the Priest's status as an IC makes him fairly useless.

Both of these are far after Nork, of course, who is definitely the worst unit in the book.

Shipmonkey
21-06-2010, 22:52
I
Orks: Stormboyz.


Stormboyz are way to usefull to be on this list. They have always befored well for me as a behind the lines tank and heavy weapon hunting squad. Likewise the ability to get them into hand to hand on a first turn charge to create a disrtaction in the enemy line has been a lifesaver for my Boyz.




Chaos Marines, it simply HAS to be Chaos Spawn, and I'm not sure how anyone could ever think otherwise. They're slow, they're easy to kill, they're terrible in combat.

Ok they are easy to kill and do have Rage, but calling a unit with a potential 24" charge range slow seems abit odd.

LonelyPath
21-06-2010, 22:55
SM I'd say Vanguard.
Orks would have to be Flash Gitz.
Daemons - I have to agree with Beasts of Nurgle.
Daemon Hunters - Purgation Squads, far to expensive for what they do.
Space Wolves - I'm not a fan of blood claws when Grey hunters also get a CCW and WS4 for the same cost.
Witchhunters - Repentia hands down.

And since I've not really read the thread properly I've already likely to have been ninja'd on all points, lol.

RampagingRavener
21-06-2010, 22:55
Ok they are easy to kill and do have Rage, but calling a unit with a potential 24" charge range slow seems abit odd.

The potential doesn't equate to the reality. They're faster than other foot infantry - but compared to the other Fast Attack options, or just troops in transports, they're slow.

bork da basher
21-06-2010, 22:59
death company are certainly by no means the worst unit for BA i'd class them as one of the best. expensive if you let them but for what you get they're hardcore.

death company with jump packs and i'd probably agree though simply for overcosting.

Gwyidion
21-06-2010, 22:59
It is a close race for eldar between swooping hawks and shining spears.

Sorry, to the person who said guardians - they are troops, at least, and a storm guardian squad in a WS with a warlock is a good way to find 3 flamer templates in a scoring unit.

Shining spears I think grab the gold in the eldar codex for worst unit. Swooping hawks have, at least, a 24" S3 Assault 2 weapon, and haywire grenades (and they are fast - 24" charge range, being fleet jump infantry)

Shining spears - 35ppm for 2 S6 power weapon attacks on the charge, space marine toughness and save, and basically will never ever survive after their first combat. And oh yes, 5 max in a unit. Terribad.

ReveredChaplainDrake
21-06-2010, 23:05
Daemons: Furies
Last I checked, smart money was on either The Masque or Tzeentch Screamers. (With a special mention for Spawn, who are technically not a unit you can buy.)


Black Templars: heavy weapon equiped crusader squads.(only thing I could think of)
Black Templars Land Speeder Typhoon. The most overpriced hunk of garbage in the out-of-date-yet-still-reasonably-potent codex.


Blood Angels: Death company seem far over priced with too many negatives but I haven't looked much at the codex
Yet people still use Death Company. Now Honor Guard... I've also heard craptastic things about Astorath.


Daemonhunters: I would imagine Melee based inquisitor retinues.
Daemonhosts. You take them and you lock Grey Knights out of your list. If you play DH at all, chances are you're doing it for the Grey Knights.


Marines: Vanguard.
Honor Guard, like with Blood Angels. Also, Legion of the Damned are pretty smelly-overpriced for their effect, no matter how you try to slice it.


Space wolves: ???
Canis Wolfborn. Not only is he stupid, but he turns those worthless Fenrisian Wolves into a unit that can't score, and eats up your Grey Hunters allowance!

Speaking of Marines, since Dark Angels weren't mentioned, I think Ezekiel is considered the grand loser of that codex.


Tau: Vespid.
Not a unit, but Krootox. They take the one lone thing that Kroot are good at... and take it away.


Nids: pyrovor?
The sole purpose of Pyrovores is Planetstrike games, where they're actually not too bad. Harpies, on the other hand, have one sole purpose in regular games: skeet shooting.

XV-88 Broadside: "Pull!"
...*BOOM!*

Special mention to the Carnifex. I believe "how the mighty have fallen" is a customary saying, but I don't think I've ever seen the mighty fall quite that hard before.

Ozybonza
21-06-2010, 23:21
Why all the BA Honour guard hate?

From memory, they are 15 points more than an assault squad, come with what equates to a sang. priest without the extra KP, have 2 attacks and heaps of special weapon options? am I wrong about something? they seem great!

enygma7
22-06-2010, 00:10
Although overcosted shining spears have uses - they are good for hit and run assassinations of units with poor HTH abilities or small units of elites.

I've never seen anyone take a vibro cannon battery though.

GrogDaTyrant
22-06-2010, 00:24
For Orks, I have to disagree with Stormboyz. I'm not a fan of them, and they don't find themselves in any list I build (I prefer bikes). My only real beef wit Stormboyz is that they're just a jump-pack choppa/slugga boy with a much higher price-tag, and IMHO could use some additional fleshing out with weapon upgrade options or even 'Eavy Armor (which is visually represented IMO). However numerous players swear by them, and there is something to say about having a relatively low-cost 'throw-away' combat unit that can pull off a 19-24" assault move.


In any case, my vote for the 'most useless' unit in the Ork codex has to be Flash Gitz. Yet again, there are players who swear by them and have found them useful. The lack of a transport option and their high cost for low average number of hits is what kills them for me. If they could pack their own battlewagon and had Twin-Linked built-in, I'd consider them worthwhile.

A close 2nd would be Weirdboyz/Warpheads. They're just too expensive for an HQ with no survivability, who offers minimal support for the army. Couple that with a lack of psychic-defense and the vast amounts of psychic defense amongst the Nids, Eldar, and Space Marines... and you've got a giant load of fail in what should be a 'fun and random package'. Give him armor, cybork, a real Ld value, some measure of psychic defense, and some weaponry... and you might actually have an HQ worthy of being an HQ selection. As it is, he competes with the the raw killing power of Ghaz, the bargain-price killing power of a Warboss, and the raw utility of a Big Mek. He could also be useful if he was a 1-3 elites choice.

Wazzdakka would be a strong third for me, and only useful due to being an unnecessary requirement for bike-themed lists.

Sir_Turalyon
22-06-2010, 00:43
For the armies I play...


Dark Eldar: Grotesques or mandrakes.


Hellions, closely followed by Scourges. Grotesques and mandrakes actualy have uses (walking cover and unnerving opposing player). Scourges have one marginaly useful overpriced bulid (4 splinter cannons) and would be winners were it not for hellions. Hellions do nothing - expansive fragile jump infrantry armed with Str 3 rapid fire weapon and single Str4 CCW.



Imperial Guard: I would say ogryn.


I would say priest. Costs the same points as ogryn, is more fragile and can be singled out from unit while doing nothing special. Althrough Techpriest is serious contestant.

Dark Angels: Ezekiel, hands down. You could give him epistolary and all six ultramarie psychic powers for free without making him underpriced. Closely followed by regular Librarian.



Orks: Stormboyz.


Maybe. No bad units in that codex IMO. Maybe Weirdboy.

IcedAnimals
22-06-2010, 02:21
Demons:
Beasts of Nurgle are worse than Furies by a mile. And heralds of Nurgle. Poor guys.

d

You know I still think furies are worse. I actually used beasts of nurgle in my all nurgle list and while no where near as useful as crushers or fiends once the kill count was a little higher they were doing quite well. Unfortunately it took too long in the game to get the kill count high enough for them to make enough of a difference.

Also id like more opinions on vanguard and honor guard. As honor guard seem to be more disliked.

TheMav80
22-06-2010, 02:55
Tau: I would rather take a unit of Vepsid than an Ethereal. Although I guess on the latter at least you are wasting less points and an extra HQ slot no one uses anyway.

Stillfrosty
22-06-2010, 02:56
For tau the worse unit has got to be the ethereal. Nothing like losing a character and having your whole army run away. With that being said the special character ethereal (whom I can't remember his name because of how bad he is) I would say is the most pointless and worthless unit in the entire game. Its bold, but he tops the cake

For marines, I am partial to legion of the damned being the worse unit in the codex. Yes they have awesome models, and yes vanguards are bad, but they can actually do something. Legion of the damned kinda just deep strikes and dies.

Tzeentch Loyalist
22-06-2010, 03:20
Those who think that blood claws are a bad unit have not seen what they can do when paired with a wolf priest in a LR crusaider. bye bye 30+ unit of orks and guard. 64 attacks w/ re-roll 8 of which are power weapons. Blood claws are amazing. wolves and canis have my vote for worst unit. Wolf guard termi's are also way too expensive for what they do, unless they are armed with wolf claws. TH/SS armed wolf guard are not worth the cost. Wolf lord is another possible bad choice when you have ragnar who can boost the army significantly for 35 more points with equal wargear.

Scribe of Khorne
22-06-2010, 03:42
Spawn, so easily worst unit in the CSM dex its sad really. The fact its one of a whopping 3 FA options just makes it that much worse.

Garven Dreis
22-06-2010, 03:46
I take Legion of the Damned for the hell of it, i mean, i could take Sternguard and achieve similar things, but i think my Legionnaires appearing with a MM is downright awesome. Also I don't see them much, so i like having the variety. But i'd agree with the fact they don't exactly serve a role which already isn't filled.

Chaos Spawn, worst unit at the moment, but i am half expecting them to be the best unit in the next dex.

Scribe of Khorne
22-06-2010, 04:11
Chaos Spawn, worst unit at the moment, but i am half expecting them to be the best unit in the next dex.

Since the models suck as well, I would be truly pissed if that was the case. :wtf:

noobzilla
22-06-2010, 04:22
I can't agree with Ogryns being the worst IG unit out there, I think Nork and some of the other SC's take the cake, namely Kahn.

For Eldar, I definitely have to say that Vypers are awful, paper thin, and overcosted as hell. I've seen Shining Spears and Hawks do damage but never a vyper..

In Tau, the Ethereal takes the cake easy, "Oh look I killed an Ethereal on turn 1 with a barrage and you don't ever get armor, cool beans, half of your army is gonna run away." They suck.

Tyranids, it's definitely the Pyrovore, poor guy is laughed at by my whole gaming group, even the guys who don't play Nids.

These are just the armies I have experience with, I don't feel I'm qualified to make calls on any other armies since I haven't really played with them and used their units.

Synnister
22-06-2010, 04:25
I can't believe no one mentioned Lone Wolf for Space Wolves. That unit is so overwhelming craptastic that the only possible explanation for it is to say "Look this Codex isn't overpowered, it's got the Lone Wolf." Has anyone ever seen this thing used?

EmperorEternalXIX
22-06-2010, 04:43
My Lone Wolf has a body count under his belt that would make Vulkan Hestan Termie Squads blush.

The Wolf Lord is equally awesome and undercredited/used.I use a 155 point variant that just murders everything he touches.

Stinkfoot
22-06-2010, 04:44
I can't believe no one mentioned Lone Wolf for Space Wolves. That unit is so overwhelming craptastic that the only possible explanation for it is to say "Look this Codex isn't overpowered, it's got the Lone Wolf." Has anyone ever seen this thing used?

Are you kidding? With Termie armor, Chain fist and Storm Shield he's a threat against everything and fairly cheap. Lone Wolves are great!

Stumpy
22-06-2010, 05:16
I can't believe anyone would compare the fail of flash gits to stormboys. Storm boys are awesome, they are one of the best choices in the book (the best being standard ork boys, of course). Looted Failwagons anyone?

Oh yes, that special character ethereal. As far as I can tell he doesn't do anything. He should cost about -50 points for being on the battlefield.

Laughingmonk
22-06-2010, 05:18
Pyrovores are not only the worst unit in the Tyranid codex, they are a pretty solid candidate for the worst unit in the entire game.

Garven Dreis
22-06-2010, 05:34
The Tau Space Pope gets my vote as the worst character devised, ever. Until GW invents an Independant Character suffers an apocalyptic explosion when a result of a 1D6 is 1 or a 6. Even then, i may take the suicidal IC.

Aun'va is worse than Pyrovores, hands down.

Laughingmonk
22-06-2010, 06:36
The Tau Space Pope gets my vote as the worst character devised, ever. Until GW invents an Independant Character suffers an apocalyptic explosion when a result of a 1D6 is 1 or a 6. Even then, i may take the suicidal IC.

Aun'va is worse than Pyrovores, hands down.

A few points:

1.) Most of these truly horrible units are from fairly out of date codices. The New Tyranids (TM) came out 1 codex ago.

2.) You only need 1 of a special character. Pyrovores must be taken in multiples to be even be remotely effective, and they cost 30 USD a pop.

3.) Aunva is a waste of points, and a huge liability, granted. But he doesn't take up one of the only force org slots you have for reasonably efficient ranged anti-tank.

4.) I never said pyrovores necessarily were the worst unit in the game, I said they were strong candidates for it. The fact that you had to bust out a truly awful SC from an outdated codex to trump them really shows how bad pyrovores are.

5.) Aun'va has terrible rules, but they all at least have an effect on the game. Pyrovores have a power weapon.... for no reason. They can explode..... half the time, under certain circumstances.

6.) The model for Aun'va makes sense. Whether you like it or not, his space popeness is appropriately reflected. The pyrovore makes no sense whatsoever. It has a HUGE gun, the size of a heavy venom cannon.... which is a bog standard heavy flamer. It is mounted on a base the size of a carnifex.... yet it has two wounds with the toughness profile of a SM scout.

7.) Aun'va is a SC, whereas the Pyrovore is a part of the core army list. Nowadays SC are core in lists, but back when Aun'va was created SC were mostly "interesting alternatives" to normal HQ's. SC mostly sucked back then anyways.

Blink
22-06-2010, 06:40
Necrons: Flayed ones.

Very much a firm no... No to Pariahs either. Unlike units like the Pyrovore and others on that list, these have very effective and fun uses that cannot be done better by other units in the codex. For a twist of amusement, run a unit of Pariahs within 12 inches of a unit of Flayed Ones grouped with a Lord carrying Gaze of Flame. In close combat, the opponent will have to pass an Ld.6 test to even hit the Flayed Ones in Close combat, or else only hit on 6s, giving you a strong chance to take sweet Sweeping Advance revenge on your opponent.

As far as least effective unit for its purpose per points in the Necron Codex, that would have to be Heavy Destroyers, which provide a super expensive shorter-range Las Cannon shot... And even these guys have their place.

The outright worst unit would be Warriors, who are PAINFUL to take, especially since Necron players are FORCE(organization)D to take 360 points of them to play any game, screwing the Necron player over for low point games. If they weren't required for objective taking, etc, they WOULD qualify as the worst unit in the book.

And yes, Aun'va has its uses and has effects that you can at LEAST strategize around... There is NOTHING the Pyrovore can do that other units can't do better.

ehlijen
22-06-2010, 06:50
Mulkers, watch the language.

Rough riders are also pretty decent troops. Sure, they only hit hard once, but they hit really hard when they do. Who else can get multiple S5 power weapon attacks for 10 points or less?

Raven1
22-06-2010, 07:27
that list looks spot on and from experience I can vouch for the Chaos Spawn.

Simo429
22-06-2010, 07:36
Lone wolfs are you being serious?

TDA with either a chain fist ans Storm Shield or a Thunder Hammer and storm Shield and you are having fun with a bloke who in a third of the games you play your opponent decides he doesn't want to kill

Bran Dawri
22-06-2010, 08:14
Eldar: Shining Spears or Guardians.

Space wolves: Blood Claws.


For Eldar, neither of the two. There are lists that use them. I have never, however, seen an eldar list in this edition's book that uses support weapon batteries.
They're so bad, most eldar players seem to have simply forgotten about them :p.

For SW, I don't think blood claws are the worst unit. In fact, I rarely leave home without them and a wolf priest to accompany them.
Much as I hate to admit it, as I love the character himself, the worst unit in the SW army is probably Bjorn the Fellhanded. Regular dreads are rarely taken as well due to competing with all the other elite slots, including venerable dreads. Wolf Guard Battle Leaders are pretty much obsolete as well.

IcedAnimals
22-06-2010, 08:39
Oh thats right, I forgot just how bad Bjorn was! He takes the cake for worst Space wolf unit.

Garven Dreis
22-06-2010, 08:43
A few points:

1.) Most of these truly horrible units are from fairly out of date codices. The New Tyranids (TM) came out 1 codex ago.

2.) You only need 1 of a special character. Pyrovores must be taken in multiples to be even be remotely effective, and they cost 30 USD a pop.

3.) Aunva is a waste of points, and a huge liability, granted. But he doesn't take up one of the only force org slots you have for reasonably efficient ranged anti-tank.

4.) I never said pyrovores necessarily were the worst unit in the game, I said they were strong candidates for it. The fact that you had to bust out a truly awful SC from an outdated codex to trump them really shows how bad pyrovores are.

5.) Aun'va has terrible rules, but they all at least have an effect on the game. Pyrovores have a power weapon.... for no reason. They can explode..... half the time, under certain circumstances.

6.) The model for Aun'va makes sense. Whether you like it or not, his space popeness is appropriately reflected. The pyrovore makes no sense whatsoever. It has a HUGE gun, the size of a heavy venom cannon.... which is a bog standard heavy flamer. It is mounted on a base the size of a carnifex.... yet it has two wounds with the toughness profile of a SM scout.

7.) Aun'va is a SC, whereas the Pyrovore is a part of the core army list. Nowadays SC are core in lists, but back when Aun'va was created SC were mostly "interesting alternatives" to normal HQ's. SC mostly sucked back then anyways.

1) Won't argue with that, although at least Pyrovores have some (albeit small) niche.

2) Cost sucks, it's worse in Australia... TRUST ME

3) Aun'va takes up one slot which could be used for another commander or Shadowsun.

4) Tau is not outdated, and it certainly is more relevant than say Necrons or Grey Knights/Sisters of Battle. My point is that Aun'va is just on a level of it's own that Pyrovores cannot hope to attain.

5) But the death of said Pyrovores does not make your army potentially run away or get Preferred Enemy. I mean preferred enemy. On Tau. Really?

6) No arguments there, however, Tau and by extension Aun'va, are not particularly savage fighters.

7) Now that you mention it, i'd argue that Old One Eye is at least as bad as the Pyrovore, it being just a stunted 'Fex and all.

Bunnahabhain
22-06-2010, 08:45
Imperial gaurd: Rough (dick) riders
Necrons: Pariah's.

Both are expensive in the game, and out of the game, and do a lot less than they are capable of.

I mean, c'mon, au$220 for a squad of each?

Rough riders are wonderful in game. They have two problems.
1) There is even better stuff available in the FA section, namley skimmers with new shiny models.

2) The available STOCK models are either rubbish, expensive or both. So don't use the stock ones. Use Empire pistollers converted up with spare bits from your infantry and the bits box, or some such thing. Mine ended up costing ~£20 per full squad, so what $35-40 Aus, at current rates...

Oh yes, exchange rates. Don't buy stuff from GW Aus, they have a rubbish exchange rate. At the moment, the real one is at 1.67$ =1£. Go the the FW website, and 10 death riders of Krieg will cost you $167 or so, i.e cheaper than the rubbish old GW huns....

EDIT. Woah! A horde of Ninjas!

Malagate
22-06-2010, 09:03
I'm with Blink on this, the worst Necron unit is indeed the one you are forced to take in almost every game, Warriors. Expensive, slow, slightly better boltguns only and very vulnerable to sweeping advances (which negate all their WBB special rules).

At least Flayed Ones can be infiltrated or can out-flank to catch heavy weapons unaware, at least Pariahs can support/improve the abilities of other units (just take 4 to keep the cost down).

Sure, warriors are Necrons and can be teleported, but if you're going to use the Veil of Darkness offensively there are way better choices than Warriors. If they could be taken in squads of 5, I could really imagine armies that only have 10 warriors in them, or even better a different troop choice (I'd take Flayed Ones over warriors if I could).

Synnister
22-06-2010, 09:26
Lone wolfs are you being serious?

TDA with either a chain fist ans Storm Shield or a Thunder Hammer and storm Shield and you are having fun with a bloke who in a third of the games you play your opponent decides he doesn't want to kill

1 guy for the force organization slot is useless. You can't give him a transport so good luck getting him in to contact with the enemy. For 110 points more you can have a wolf guard battle leader with TH/SS on a wolf. So that +1T, +2S, +2A, Same save, and the possibility of a 24" assault. And the WGBL doesn't take up an Elite choice of which you have fewer than HQs. And compared to a Blood Claws unit, the lone wolf pales in comparison.

The Ginger Ninja
22-06-2010, 09:42
Necrons: Flayed ones.
Really :rolleyes:? Pariahs are much worse IMO.
Cons

Fearless, Combined with one attack, they tend to lose assaults and take more wounds.
Lower than average Initiative, most decent CC units (other than power fists etc) have a higher initiative, resulting in most pariahs dying before striking.
Playing against anything with low saves (eg guard), warscythe is nearly useless
Slow movement speed, one of the few things in the necron codex unable to take advantage of Necron teleportation, and can't outflank or anything similar.
No WBB, once they drop, they drop
0-1, you can have at most 10 pariahs, so you can't spam them (2 squads of five might be nice if you could do it)
One wound, speaks for itself.
Expensive, around(:)) 350 points for 10, you can have the nightbringer for nearly the same amount of points.
Too expensive to use as an effective meatshield (whoops, I meant bodyguard :shifty:) for lords.
Losing valuable necron numbers for phase out.
Average WS, hitting on 4s against MEQs.




Pros

Strength 5, its nice, but can't do much with it.
Soulless, is nice around high leadership models, but things like guard, useless.
Warscythe, amazing against most tanks, but you need to get them there first.
Warscythe, I have had so much fun with these against terminators... :evilgrin:
psychic abomination Haven't used them against psykers yet, but I can see it being alright, not OTT, but alright.
Gauss Blaster is nice, but immortals do it better for cheaper.
T5 is nice, but nothing extraordinary.
I can see mischief happening if you manage to combine them with flayed ones...
The way GW write new codexes (AFAIK) is to take crap units and make them ubėr, so hopefully that makes pariahs good.
Nice models.


Flayed ones can move quickly (teleportation), WBB, a little harder to hit in CC, are as cheap as warriors, help put phase out a little bit further out of reach, but have very basic statlines.

Give me flayed ones over pariahs any-day.

Giganthrax
22-06-2010, 09:49
CSM - spawn
Blood Angels - tactical squads
Vanilla Space Marines - servitor & techmarine units
Witchhunters - repentia

Xelloss
22-06-2010, 09:49
Black Templars Land Speeder Typhoon. The most overpriced hunk of garbage in the out-of-date-yet-still-reasonably-potent codex.
Well, what more can I say after that ? This is completely accurate.

Wade Wilson
22-06-2010, 09:58
7) Now that you mention it, i'd argue that Old One Eye is at least as bad as the Pyrovore, it being just a stunted 'Fex and all.

I think we may have a Tyranid 'winner' here. 250 points for a C/C dedicated beast...that is awful in close combat. Ws3 I1 and a move of 6" a turn...not even his S10 makes up for that. An Alpha Leader who is NOT synapse but confers his mighty Ld8 onto nearby tyranid units. A M/C who can regenerate on a 5+ but only has W4 and is not an eternal warrior...

Two hundred and fifty points.

As awful the pyrovore is (and taking away an elite slot) my penny is on Old One Eye.

Simo429
22-06-2010, 10:08
1 guy for the force organization slot is useless. You can't give him a transport so good luck getting him in to contact with the enemy. For 110 points more you can have a wolf guard battle leader with TH/SS on a wolf. So that +1T, +2S, +2A, Same save, and the possibility of a 24" assault. And the WGBL doesn't take up an Elite choice of which you have fewer than HQs. And compared to a Blood Claws unit, the lone wolf pales in comparison.

I have never had issues getting a lone wolf into contact with the enemy
I know of no wolf players who do

AFnord
22-06-2010, 10:23
Rough riders are quite good actually. They don't fit into every list, but they make for a nice, fast response, counter assault unit. They might be a one hit wonder, but when they hit something expensive (like termies), they really shine.



For Eldar, neither of the two. There are lists that use them. I have never, however, seen an eldar list in this edition's book that uses support weapon batteries.
Support weapon batteries works in defensive eldar armies. While these are not very popular, it is not a bad army type.

Hal'jin
22-06-2010, 12:27
1 guy for the force organization slot is useless. You can't give him a transport so good luck getting him in to contact with the enemy. For 110 points more you can have a wolf guard battle leader with TH/SS on a wolf. So that +1T, +2S, +2A, Same save, and the possibility of a 24" assault. And the WGBL doesn't take up an Elite choice of which you have fewer than HQs. And compared to a Blood Claws unit, the lone wolf pales in comparison.

Clearly you've never seen one in skilled hands then. He is excellent, and what else would you put in the two Elite slots (considering one is pretty much always occupied by WGs). If I was to point out worst unit in SW dex, not looking at special characters since we usually don't use them anyway, I'd pick Skyclaws. Expensive, not scoring, WS3, no Wolf Guards. WGBL comes really close too. I tried him a few times and he just doesn't cut it. I'd rather pay 30 pts more for some psychic powers/re-rolls/+1 WS +1 W +1 A and an option for the Bear tale. But honestly. most units in the Wolf Codex are great and can be used well, depending how you make your list, there's a lot of ways to build (effective!) stuff.

As for the other army I play, IG... Hmm, worst unit is a tough one. Perhaps the Vanquisher or the Eradicator. Or maybe the Lord Commissar or Ogryns. Tough call there!

Garven Dreis
22-06-2010, 12:31
I think we may have a Tyranid 'winner' here. 250 points for a C/C dedicated beast...that is awful in close combat. Ws3 I1 and a move of 6" a turn...not even his S10 makes up for that. An Alpha Leader who is NOT synapse but confers his mighty Ld8 onto nearby tyranid units. A M/C who can regenerate on a 5+ but only has W4 and is not an eternal warrior...

Two hundred and fifty points.

As awful the pyrovore is (and taking away an elite slot) my penny is on Old One Eye.

It's a shame really, when Old One Eye should infact be a power sort of unit, however, and for something that should be SLIGHTLY better than a Landraider, it is definitely worse than the Pyrovore.

Anyone care to defend Old One Eye?

horus666
22-06-2010, 12:40
What the hell is wrong with Bjorn, from what i have seen in games when used correctly hes a beast

ehlijen
22-06-2010, 12:53
There's nothing wrong with Bjorn! He's the bomb!

Born Again
22-06-2010, 14:20
when was the last time you saw someone use a Weirdboy? Or even acknowledge its existence?

A regular feature of my Ork army, and in one case it single-handedly turned a loss in to a draw for me. Random =/= bad, especially when, like the weirdboy, there are no major downsides, head explosions aside, and even those aren't always that troubling.

stormboy
22-06-2010, 14:42
I have used and continue to use flashgits to great success. They are survivable - both from shooting and c.c. - they create a huge threat zone around them and normally they get their points back and more.

Do they look good on paper? Nope - but they play damned good. I would put tankbustas down as the worst ork choice. They are hampered by stupid rules and I've completely eliminated them from my lists.

AFnord
22-06-2010, 14:52
Tankbustas are good (great even) in anti-tyranid lists though.


If I was to point out worst unit in SW dex, not looking at special characters since we usually don't use them anyway, I'd pick Skyclaws. Expensive, not scoring, WS3, no Wolf Guards.
Skyclaws costs 3 more points than a blood claw, and have an impressive 4 attacks on charge. WS3 means that they will be hit on 3+ against most things that can fight, but they are fast, and will most likely get the charge. That does not seem to be bad at all. I would imagine that a skyclaw squad of a decent size would be able to put more than a dent into things such as ork mobs.

ReveredChaplainDrake
22-06-2010, 15:19
It's a shame really, when Old One Eye should infact be a power sort of unit, however, and for something that should be SLIGHTLY better than a Landraider, it is definitely worse than the Pyrovore.

Anyone care to defend Old One Eye?
OOE actually is kinda' potent. The trick is to take advantage of the rollover attacks you get each time he hits in CC (after re-rolls). For best effect, use him near a Tyrant w/ Paroxysm and Old Enemy. (Which will run you another 250-ish, all told... :cries:) But if you can pull this off, OOE can get up to 14 hits on a single non-vehicle unit. The 5+ Regen is like a delayed IV save, and the Ld8 can help slightly if you're not running heavy synapse, or if you run a Hormagaunt heavy army. (Hormagaunts don't usually get cut down in assault due to their high Initiative, so forward Synapse is much worse for them than for bog-standard Termegants, who actually would get cut down fairly often.) In a megabattle, I had OOE charge into a big 20-mob of Gretchin and cleared the entire unit in one round. If not on attacks, then combat res.

The problem with OOE is that, what he's good at, he's too good at, but he pays for it anyway. He's overkill, plain and simple.

Pawn of Decay
22-06-2010, 15:45
I have used and continue to use flashgits to great success. They are survivable - both from shooting and c.c. - they create a huge threat zone around them and normally they get their points back and more.

Do they look good on paper? Nope - but they play damned good. I would put tankbustas down as the worst ork choice. They are hampered by stupid rules and I've completely eliminated them from my lists.


Flashgitz are too hit and miss. As for survivability? They are as survivable as anything else in the game. Hit it with something hard enough and it dies.

As for Tankbustas. They're are awesome. Take a Unit of 10 Tankbustas, Stick them in a Looted Wagon. Run them Forward. When you find a Unit you want to wreck, use the Looted Wagon to block the line of site to the annoy veichles. You can't see the nearest enemy tank so you don't have to shoot it. Even at BS2 10 Rocket Launchers from a unit is devistating.

The worst Ork unit is probably the Warbuggies or similiar. They aren't cheap, don't transport units and they're still armour 10 with open top.

Reinholt
22-06-2010, 16:22
On the Eldar topic:

- Guardians have their uses, either as the cheapest method for making transports scoring options, for the multiple flamer template storm guardian unit, or for the fortune/conceal defensive screen. They aren't great, but they aren't tragically bad.

- Swooping Hawks do have use for anti-mech and contesting objectives if you have the last turn, but I am not impressed with them compared to many other options.

- Shining Spears would be on the list if not for hit and run. When used similarly to Harlequins to chip away at units, they can be surprisingly good, and come out to about the same cost per model when you factor in a transport for the harlies. Again, not great, but playable.

- My money would be on some of the support weapons (who would ever take a shadow weaver now that you can take a nightspinner, for instance), though the D-cannon has its charm. The others... not so much.

- About half the phoenix lords are stupidly overcosted and have no invulnerable save or abilities that make them worth fielding.

AFnord
22-06-2010, 16:47
The worst Ork unit is probably the Warbuggies or similiar. They aren't cheap, don't transport units and they're still armour 10 with open top.
A squadron of buggies with rokkits makes for a good cheap tank hunting unit, and scorchas are great for flushing out things with a 4+ save or worse (and work against marines as well). With big shootas they will usually not prove to be very useful (back in 4th edition, they were great trukk screens though).

Finarflin
22-06-2010, 16:52
Swooping hawks seem to be borderline for some people. I have never played in tournaments or the like, but I always field them with great success. From bombing large units and blowing up land raiders (this was very lucky i know, but it did happen) I have found that they have always been worth it.

Apart from the Phoenix lords every part of the elder seems to have its uses and seem to be viable.

However, as I stated, I have not played in tournaments etc.

Blink
22-06-2010, 18:19
Really ? Pariahs are much worse IMO.

.... And apparently in your opinion according to your pros and cons, your Pariahs are played by a recently lobotomized monkey. Hardly ANY of that is what you should be using the Pariahs for as is. For most of those pros and cons, that's like docking a gaunt for not being able to punch vehicle armor. Almost ALL of my competitive lists have Pariahs, and even more would if I weren't forced to take a metric fecal ton of Warriors to meet the FOC.

SabrX
22-06-2010, 18:38
Witchhunters: Orbital Strike

Sure the Repentias are bad, but not as useless as Orbital Strike unless you are playing Apocalypse.

MistaGav
22-06-2010, 18:40
Speaking of Marines, since Dark Angels weren't mentioned, I think Ezekiel is considered the grand loser of that codex.


Yea that's probably a good bet followed closely by the bog standard libby, maybe less seeing as the standard can take termie armour so get the invul save. The main factor is that the DA don't have any useful psychic powers like the other codex's.

madival
22-06-2010, 18:50
necron-pariah. the unit so bad, most necron players forget they exist.

No2Wookie
22-06-2010, 18:55
There's no way the pyrovore is worse than old one eye.

Blink
22-06-2010, 19:36
necron-pariah. the unit so bad, most necron players forget they exist.

And to be fair, the norm seems to be most Necron players don't even know their own rules half the time (especially if this very site is any indication).

Underused =/= bad.

bocaj
22-06-2010, 19:39
You may be forgiven for allowing it to slip your mind, but there's actually a Heavy Support unit in the Dark Eldar codex called "Scourges" so hellishly bad that no one on the planet has actually fielded it since 2001. And that time it was just some dude who did it as a joke.

Yeh scrouges are pretty aweful, I like the coolness of mandrakes as they are basicaly used for psycological warfare as if you take 3 squads of them there 9 of them runnin round but you dont know which 3 are acctually squads. Also i think grotesques are quite cool as they have FNP but this one is acc awesome as they are now immune to any shooting attacks that are weaker than S6 so bolters of any tipe are pointless against them.


Pariahs are a strong contender, pulling the Necron amount so low that a deep strike mishap will cause you to auto-lose. Bonus points for including a C'tan and a couple of Monoliths in the same army as Pariahs.

Yep parriah are crap, but their warsythes basicaly one of the best CC wpns in the game. Oooh I see your TT/SS termies i atack first and ignor you 2+ save and your 3+ save, and youve been shot up by the assault 2 guns :D

Askari
22-06-2010, 22:55
Underused =/= bad.

No but Infantry, with no mode of transport or moving faster a la Scout or Infiltrate, that are only decent at assault seeing as they only have 1 Attack that's only half-decent if it hits, has a gun that every other model in your army also has some version of, costs a bloody huge amount per model, and actually weakens your army due to not being a Necron. Oh and ending up with a model that's as easier to kill than your troops units, or indeed, most other things in your codex.

That does = bad.

That all said, they are still much better than Chaos Spawn.

Garven Dreis
22-06-2010, 23:12
That all said, they are still much better than Chaos Spawn.

You say that like it's an achievement ;)

Askari
22-06-2010, 23:38
You say that like it's an achievement ;)

It's more a reminder that no matter how many cons I list, everything is better than Chaos Spawn. :)

Garven Dreis
22-06-2010, 23:42
On a similar vein, has anyone seen Marneus Calgar fielded in a real game? All I see is Vulkan.

Fobster
23-06-2010, 00:03
blood angels: sang guard. jump pack, terminator priced models in a mech edition. Honor guard can do the same thing for cheaper.

carldooley
23-06-2010, 00:19
It's more a reminder that no matter how many cons I list, everything is better than Chaos Spawn. :)

actually, the ethereal is worse. Especially in an army where all the infantry are hoofing it.

Axeman1n
23-06-2010, 01:00
I think worse unit should exclude special characters. I'd like to offer up the Rattlings as worse unit. They excell at shooting, in an army that doesn't need it. They have stealth, but they aren't a scoring unit.

Blink
23-06-2010, 03:13
No but Infantry, with no mode of transport or moving faster a la Scout or Infiltrate, that are only decent at assault seeing as they only have 1 Attack that's only half-decent if it hits, has a gun that every other model in your army also has some version of, costs a bloody huge amount per model, and actually weakens your army due to not being a Necron. Oh and ending up with a model that's as easier to kill than your troops units, or indeed, most other things in your codex.

Again, see my Gaunt vs Tank argument. Most people are like cavemen in a computer store when it comes to Pariahs for whatever reason, and yet, if their strategies were any more obvious, you could throw darts at them...

In many EFFECTIVE competitive lists, you will find Pariahs for their combo ability with the Deceiver and Nightmare Shroud, which is for throwing enemies off your objective (even Fearless enemies in the Deceiver's case) late game (which is very important since the strength of Necron rests in contesting objectives via burbo-toosting rather than controlling) or stopping assault units before they can take down your more fragile guys.

For whatever god-unknown reason, people think Pariahs are assault units, when really they should be BEHIND the bulk of your units and brought out for assaults only when there's something USEFUL for them to beat on, like Terminators or tanks.

The Pariah is FAR from the worst unit and is key to making some of the most competitive lists available to Necron.

Alamais
23-06-2010, 03:20
SW: Lukas the trickster
A unit upgrade with abilities that only work whens he's dead or alone (not ignoring the fact he caps their Ld).

The Marshel
23-06-2010, 04:32
personally i would consider brother chronos and servitors to be worse units then vanguard.

vanguard arent horrible or useless, they are overpriced and outclassed, but give a unit appropriate weaponry and it'll still add something to your force, albiet something less spectacular then what you could have.

compare them to devastators. no one thinks devs are any good. they are pricey and most combinations are done better by other, cheaper units, but no one is whacking the worst unit label on them.

servitors fill a niche, at s3 t3, which is not a bonus. they are slow, they are unreliable in combat and imo, for what you get they are quite pricey, especially if u replace that servo arm for a heavy weapon.

Sergeant Chronos does make a tank bs 5 and ignores shaken and stunned, but then, you gotta consider what tanks u'd put him on. the idea of puttin im on a rhino or razorback is just amusing. a whirlwind will neither use his bs5 or be at great risk of shaken or stunned if its being used properly, a vindicator has little call for bs 5, so thats 70 points for better extra amour, full las pread is expensive enough, auto cannon las preads become as expensive as full las preads, dakka preads could benefit, but for the cost of chronos you could almost take a second dakka pread. so that just leaves landraiders, why not add 70 more points to that basket of eggs? again i can see the advantage of it, but i diffidently doesnt add up to 70 points when the most importent can be achieved for 15.

so, chronos or servitors are worse then vanguard imo

mulkers
23-06-2010, 05:01
I think worse unit should exclude special characters. I'd like to offer up the Rattlings as worse unit. They excell at shooting, in an army that doesn't need it. They have stealth, but they aren't a scoring unit.

Against 'cronzilla or 'nidzilla, they are worth their weight in gold.

TheSanityAssassin
23-06-2010, 05:23
Thinking about Eldar, I really do think it has to be the Weapons Platforms, though I can think of a few situations when they're useful. At 500-ish points I always take 3 shadow weavers...that much blast pinning fire (that are allowed into small games) is quite handy.

I've made great use of Shining Spears in the last several years, and often take a squad accompanied by an Autarch, or possibly a Farseer with Fortune. You just have to remember not to just hurl them into the first thing you see....pick your targets carefully and they'll slay...small units of elite troops, or lower initiative monstrous creatures. The Star Lance exarch can also reap quite a toll in independent characters with his I6. The biggest thing to remember is they're actually remarkably good at shooting, with twin linked BS4 catapults, and often a BS5 cannon on the exarch....against assaulty armies without much return fire they can really trim down units, or surprise your enemy with 3 s6 BS5 shots into rear armour.

Mindshred
23-06-2010, 05:50
Pyrovores aren't great, but they're at least passable if you put them into a pod.

Old One Eye, on the other hand, is just absurdly overpriced for what he brings to the table.

However, I think that Skyslashers are worse than either one. Not only do they take wounds outside of synapse range and take double damage from templates, they're completely and utterly inferior to gargoyles in just about every aspect.

TheSanityAssassin
23-06-2010, 06:01
Man, I completely forgot about those crappiles. I kind of try and forget that codex exists....and it's worked so far. I'm like 8 and 0 against nids without even knowing what half the crap I shoot at is.

Laughingmonk
23-06-2010, 06:49
Pyrovores aren't great, but they're at least passable if you put them into a pod.

Old One Eye, on the other hand, is just absurdly overpriced for what he brings to the table.

However, I think that Skyslashers are worse than either one. Not only do they take wounds outside of synapse range and take double damage from templates, they're completely and utterly inferior to gargoyles in just about every aspect.

I heartily disagree here. Sky slashers, while not being quite as good as gargoyles, can actually perform their role. They are fast, have more wounds per point than any other flying model in the tyranid codex, and put out more attacks per point. They are also properly fearless. They benefit from stealth.

Sky slashers are actually quite decent in many situations. One thing that many seem o forget is that deploying 30 gargoyles can be not only a PITA but also a tactical liability at times. Gargoyle's large base size can severely hamper their damage capability, whilst being a risk to other units (via multi assaults and No retreat! wounds).

Sky slashers can be a modestly costed, swift, and compact rapid strike force. That this is a reduntant role in the tyranid book is more an army problem than a unit problem. Pyrovores and OOE, on the other hand, are just plain heinous. They cannot perform their role. They have needless junk rules (Whats with the acid maw? Why does OOE have battering ram when he has crushing claws?). Neither of them can perform their role; OOE is walking overkill and is made of tissue paper. He will never see combat. Ever. Pyrovores are a suicide unit... that don't cause all that much damage (if any), and suck in every way possible.

Alessander
23-06-2010, 07:25
Shining Spears are killer. Yea, they are pricey, but they get the job done. I've seen spears in some tourney-winning lists.

Compare to some of the Phoenix lords, who are the same price as a full squad of Spears and nowhere as useful...

Pawn of Decay
23-06-2010, 08:17
Sergeant Chronos does make a tank bs 5 and ignores shaken and stunned, but then, you gotta consider what tanks u'd put him on. the idea of puttin im on a rhino or razorback is just amusing. a whirlwind will neither use his bs5 or be at great risk of shaken or stunned if its being used properly, a vindicator has little call for bs 5, so thats 70 points for better extra amour, full las pread is expensive enough, auto cannon las preads become as expensive as full las preads, dakka preads could benefit, but for the cost of chronos you could almost take a second dakka pread. so that just leaves landraiders, why not add 70 more points to that basket of eggs? again i can see the advantage of it, but i diffidently doesnt add up to 70 points when the most importent can be achieved for 15.

so, chronos or servitors are worse then vanguard imo


I think Chronos is awesome. Sure eh may be a bit pricy for what he does. But why not shove him on a Razor Back? Fill it with some thing that can rip things to shreads in combat, with a gun on it that can deal out damage. You're moving 6" firing a gun at BS5, They blow the tank up, your unit of killy death steps out and on a 3+ they can a bloke weilding a Power Fist essentially.

Extra armour allows you to keep moving, but never underestimate how could being able to fire is. Certain situations, it will save your bacon.

Devistators would be my choice of the worst unit in a marine army. They are an expensive unit that although fulfills a roll, gets screwed over by the fact that other things in the codex does it better, for less points. 4 Heavy Bolters for anti hoard, take a dakka pred or a vindicator. 4 Lascannons, take a lascannon pred, or a vindicator. :)

Garven Dreis
23-06-2010, 08:37
I think Chronos is awesome. Sure eh may be a bit pricy for what he does. But why not shove him on a Razor Back?

I'd like to introduce you to my friend the Autocannon.

Pawn of Decay
23-06-2010, 08:42
Sure. And still on a 3+ I get an additional Bod with a Power Fist... In the Marine Tournament list I was running I had him in the army. It worked very successfully. The problem with this thread is that people are looking at the units by them selves.

With the rest of the army being in their face from the offset very few people are going to pop it first turn.

The thing with Chronos is he's a nice option to have if you've got points left around. I'm not suggesting people take him from the offset and everyone should have him in their list. But as an additional option with points left over, don't right him off. You essentially have the possibility of having a 55pts Techmarine on the roll of a 3+.

Axeman1n
23-06-2010, 09:38
The Rattlings are gold against two, maybe three lists in the game. Against any other list they are chumps. Nidzilla doesn't really exist the way it was. Cronzilla is a thing of the past too.
S5 T5 W3 is useful in against nearly any army, even as a tarpit. Add a priest and a commissar lord, and these guys will mow down all but the most combat monster of squads.

Purifactor
23-06-2010, 09:44
Bloodangels worst-Flying wizard dreadnought, when i read this i stopped playing for a while...just wow/

Badger[Fr]
23-06-2010, 10:34
S5 T5 W3 is useful in against nearly any army, even as a tarpit.
A 210 point tarpit is no longer a tarpit, it's an utter waste of points.


Add a priest and a commissar lord, and these guys will mow down all but the most combat monster of squads.
Ogryns can't get re-rolls from a Priest, and the Commissar Lord is a T3 IC that won't survive a single round of CC. Ogryns are no match for Tyranid Warriors, Bloodcrushers, Assault Terminators, Meganobz, or actually any decent CC unit in the entire game. Had they FNP, decent morale, and the ability to give the Bonehead a Power Fist or even a Power Weapon, it would have been a whole other issue.

The Marshel
23-06-2010, 11:17
I think Chronos is awesome. Sure eh may be a bit pricy for what he does. But why not shove him on a Razor Back? Fill it with some thing that can rip things to shreads in combat, with a gun on it that can deal out damage. You're moving 6" firing a gun at BS5, They blow the tank up, your unit of killy death steps out and on a 3+ they can a bloke weilding a Power Fist essentially.


when it comes to the weaponry of a razorback and its capabilities, i find the difference between bs 4 and 5 laughable. suffice to say that twin linked bs 4 is still pretty damm good odds of a hit, that is still a single lascannon shot, bs 5 or not, and a single lascannon shot still needs decent luck to get anywhere. so far all the 70 points has netted is turning an 88.89% chance to hit into a 97.2% chance too hit. for a multimelta, maybe, but even then thats alot of points to to add jsut under 9 percent to what is already some pretty likable odds.

secondly, marines don't tend to have many units that are that good at close combat in such small numbers, as terminators need a raider and can't be considered. this pretty much just leaves command squads. I fail to see a situation where one extra powerfist attack regularly be the difference between winning and losing combat when u're talking about a command squad designed for close combat. It also doesn't help that not only is there a 1 in 3 chance chronos will die (and any marine player will tell u, 3+ isnt all that great, good, but hardly unfail-able) but u have no real reliable timing to it. could be first turn, could be their, could never happen. I'd consider it at 40 points in this situation, but anymore and no way.



Extra armour allows you to keep moving, but never underestimate how could being able to fire is. Certain situations, it will save your bacon.


for the cost of chronos, you could almost take a second dakka pread (ac hb if u didn't know, not sure if dakka pread is the most common name) I'd much rather have two then being able to always fire with one. for tri las preads, as i have already mentioned, they are already stupidly expensive and will exceed 200 points with chronos, may as well take a land raider. for ac las preads, you will make it cost more then a tri las pread, which defies most the point o the ac las pread in the first place. a properly played whirlwind should be stunned, if it is its probably going to be dead soon anyway, and again, the cost of chronos could buy a second whirlwind. landraiders tend to be more dangerous for their cargo, so they care more about moving then firing. also, with poms, you can always fire at least one weapon, and often your only firing one anyway, so again, chronos is nothing more then a more expensive set of extra armor. obviously always being able to fire means nothing to rhinos and as for razorbacks, with such limited firepower its a transport first and foremost.

there is only one tank where this is even close to logical. a single vindi shot can cause havoc, thats true, but the situations where you can't fire specifically because you were shaken or stunned aren't all that often. more often then not you have either
a: taken multiple vindis in the hope that one will get its shots off while the opponent kills the others
b: been destroyed
c: used your vindicator with great care, timing and awareness keeping it out of danger till the most opportune moment
either way, i can't see any justifiable reason to increase the cost of a unit that already draws a lot of fire, and isn't all that hard to kill, by 60% for no additional survivability.



Devistators would be my choice of the worst unit in a marine army. They are an expensive unit that although fulfills a roll, gets screwed over by the fact that other things in the codex does it better, for less points. 4 Heavy Bolters for anti hoard, take a dakka pred or a vindicator. 4 Lascannons, take a lascannon pred, or a vindicator. :)

screwed over is rather harsh. true, devastators are generally outclassed, but you will see people fielding them well ahead of vanguard, servitors and chronos. firstly, what you have listed for weapons are possibly two of the worst options. 4 missiles provides decent anti tank firepower and decent anti horde. i can't think of a unit that does this without having to take two different weapons. devastators are also one of the only plasma cannon platforms, competing with dreads, and winning on the basis that they can take more then one. also, while they don't compare favorably to vindis, preads and landspeeders (the more commonly referred to replacement for most dev functions) they are much harder to kill quickly, able to get easy coversaves, ablative wounds and generally that they can't be killed in one hit, and that they can assault back. devastators are not good, but they are far from the worst unit of the codex.


Sure. And still on a 3+ I get an additional Bod with a Power Fist... In the Marine Tournament list I was running I had him in the army. It worked very successfully. The problem with this thread is that people are looking at the units by them selves.

a single tournament list's results are not a good basis for a units ability. a friend of mine killed my landraider with a shok attack gun just yesterday. doesn't make the shok attack gun any better competitively.

when i feel like paying 70 points for a CHANCE of a power fist attack, i will, till then, i fail to see this as any saving grace for chronos.

Chronos doesn't add anything to any army. all he does is make a tank slightly better. as i have shown, there is no situation where that plus 70 points is worth even half of it. i have given a reasonable analyse of every tank chronos can hop into and why it doest improve the tank in any seriously notable way. given chronos makes no significant changes to the tank beyond improved bs and improved extra armour, he doesn't significantly (or at all) chage how the tank will be played. as such, the viability of chronos in army terms comes down to the viability of the tank he is in. as such, i dont need to consider what units are in the rest of the army, because chronos will have no direct affect on them that i cant achieve for 55 points less. the viability of chronos army wise is defined by what tank u put him in. as chronos grants little return to every possible tank he could be added to, he is worth very little himself.

so yes, i have considered the army surrounding chronos, and i still find him more lacking then anything else in the book bar servitors (i'd consider them even tbh)


With the rest of the army being in their face from the offset very few people are going to pop it first turn.

ever gone second or played guard/tau/anyone able to ensure they have sufficient anti tank ability in their list to deal with mech armies (also known as most everyone)? doesn't need to pop first turn anyway, second turn will also leave you high and dry.


The thing with Chronos is he's a nice option to have if you've got points left around. I'm not suggesting people take him from the offset and everyone should have him in their list. But as an additional option with points left over, don't right him off. You essentially have the possibility of having a 55pts Techmarine on the roll of a 3+.

if i have 55 points lying around (what i would need to upgrade extra armour to chronos) then i can think of plenty of better ways to use it. for example, i could add extra armor to all my transport. i could add a mm attack bike. i could upgrade assault weapons. i could add and extra terminator to a squad. i could maybe strip a few points away else where and get myself a pread or whirlwind. there is plenty of better things i could do for the cost chronos. points left over for most people is 30 or less.

also, people don't want techmarines either, especially given that you lose out on bolter defenses.

chronos and servitors are imo dead even for worst unit, and far worse then vanguard or devastators, both of which will actually add something to your army

Bunnahabhain
23-06-2010, 11:24
I think worse unit should exclude special characters. I'd like to offer up the Rattlings as worse unit. They excell at shooting, in an army that doesn't need it. They have stealth, but they aren't a scoring unit.

No.

BS4 snipers, with stealth.
Cheap
Not crowding out useful units (Mambo>> Ratlings and Psykers>> Ogryns and Stormies), how often do you want more than three of those in the same army?

As noted above, invaluable some of the time...

Vaktathi
23-06-2010, 11:26
Well, here's my list of what I would consider worst units in each codex.

Witchhunters: Penitent Engines/Repentia
Daemons: Furies
Eldar: Vypers/Guardians
Chaos Marines: Spawn
Black Templars: Initiate Bikers
Blood Angels: TechMarines
Daemonhunters: Daemonhosts? This whole book is pretty bad.
Dark Eldar: Scourges (T3 5+sv jump infantry with Heavy weapons?)
Imperial Guard: Ogryn & Techpriests
Necrons: Pariah's
Orks: Skorcha Wartrakk
Marines: Legion of the Damned and Vanguard Veterans
Space wolves: Do they have anything bad? Skyclaws maybe?
Tau: Gun Drone Squads and Vespids.
Tyranids: Old One Eye and Pyrovores
Dark Angels: Scouts

AFnord
23-06-2010, 11:53
In many EFFECTIVE competitive lists, you will find Pariahs for their combo ability with the Deceiver and Nightmare Shroud, which is for throwing enemies off your objective (even Fearless enemies in the Deceiver's case) late game (which is very important since the strength of Necron rests in contesting objectives via burbo-toosting rather than controlling) or stopping assault units before they can take down your more fragile guys.
You are spending a whole lot of points on this combo though, and Pariahs are still rather easy to take out. They might be T5, but I would still focus on taking out that unit. Pariahs have some great special rules, the problem is that they will most likely not be allowed to use them.


Orks: Skorcha Wartrakk
I've been using these things in the majority of all tournament lists I've made for the last 10 years, and I find them to be great. Decent against MEQs, great aginst GEQs, and things with 4+ saves.

Pawn of Decay
23-06-2010, 11:56
Marshel. It's a nice account of things with Chronos. i will give you that lol. Almost hurt my head reading your reply though :).

However, and perhaps it is jut the list I am fielding or the fact I like the model, I still find a useful asset to have. Even if I am just paying those extra points to make the cheap transport veichle suddenly become something people want to pop. Of course a single Tournaments list results isn't the basis to solely say whether a unit is good or not. Just that he has the potential to be useful.

Of course in most scenarios I would agree with you that the additional points going to other options such as a dakka pred etc. make him weaker as an option for the army. I just feel that it doesn't make him the worst unit in the army. He has his uses even if they are obscure uses for which his points aren't worth it.

Devistators as a personal opinion are redundent. Yes they can get a cover save, yes they can be harder to deal with than a tank. But the points cost for them makes them not worth their use. They may bring something to the army. However the cost of what they bring to the army could be used on something that does it better for less.

The way I have used Chronos in the past is bizare, and at the end of the day probably not worth it. I agree the extra powerfist attack in most situations wouldn't do anything to help, was just pointing out that you get it. But he has a use. Even if as I said he does just make something a bigger target.

I have been on the receiving end of Guard or tau etc. that go first. A clever deployment makes the Razorback nice and hiden in the first turn. Second turn they have drop Pods, and Scouts in their face and assault them to the stage where they forget about the Razorback. Of course the unit inside the Razorback is another unit that people find redundent, but I like the Honour Guard unit with Kantor.

Mindshred
23-06-2010, 12:26
They are fast, have more wounds per point than any other flying model in the tyranid codex, and put out more attacks per point. They are also properly fearless. They benefit from stealth.

They're Fearless, sure, but so is every other Tyranid within synapse range. Outside of synapse, the skyslashers may still be fearless, but they're also taking wounds every turn as they go brain dead.

While it's true that they have more wounds per point than gargoyles, that's a bit of a moot point as soon as they're hit by a blast or template, at which point they just evaporate in a cloud of wasted points.

Furthermore, Stealth doesn't really work out so well with skyslashers; they have difficulties hugging area terrain because they're jump infantry without a shooting attack (unless you want to make them more expensive), so that's out. They can't hide behind gaunts for cover unless your flying models are crawling along at ground level, and they can't screen your Monstrous Creatures, because they're swarms.

They're not even that great in combat unless you give them toxin sacs, which, again, makes them too expensive for what they're supposed to do.

The Ginger Ninja
23-06-2010, 13:04
The Pariah is FAR from the worst unit and is key to making some of the most competitive lists available to Necron.
@Blink, Pm me some of your pariah lists, I'll give them a try, you have an opportunity to educate me on the proper use of pariahs, use it well.



The outright worst unit would be Warriors, who are PAINFUL to take, especially since Necron players are FORCE(organization)D to take 360 points of them to play any game, screwing the Necron player over for low point games. If they weren't required for objective taking, etc, they WOULD qualify as the worst unit in the book.You have a point there, forgot about those guys...

Born Again
23-06-2010, 13:43
I have used and continue to use flashgits to great success. They are survivable - both from shooting and c.c. - they create a huge threat zone around them and normally they get their points back and more.

Do they look good on paper? Nope - but they play damned good. I would put tankbustas down as the worst ork choice. They are hampered by stupid rules and I've completely eliminated them from my lists.

Thankyou, good to see someone else in support of the Gitz! The only thing they suffer from is being in competition with so many other great choices in their slot (and a strange lack of models, though their SC upgrade is available!). As a choice though, there is nothing wrong with them.

Askari
23-06-2010, 14:41
In many EFFECTIVE competitive lists, you will find Pariahs for their combo ability with the Deceiver and Nightmare Shroud, which is for throwing enemies off your objective (even Fearless enemies in the Deceiver's case) late game.


If you're using Pariahs AND the Deceiver, there won't be a late-game. Phase Out will destroy you, especially with the likes of Battlecannons wiping squads out with little effort.

Laughingmonk
23-06-2010, 16:12
They're Fearless, sure, but so is every other Tyranid within synapse range. Outside of synapse, the skyslashers may still be fearless, but they're also taking wounds every turn as they go brain dead.

While it's true that they have more wounds per point than gargoyles, that's a bit of a moot point as soon as they're hit by a blast or template, at which point they just evaporate in a cloud of wasted points.

Furthermore, Stealth doesn't really work out so well with skyslashers; they have difficulties hugging area terrain because they're jump infantry without a shooting attack (unless you want to make them more expensive), so that's out. They can't hide behind gaunts for cover unless your flying models are crawling along at ground level, and they can't screen your Monstrous Creatures, because they're swarms.

They're not even that great in combat unless you give them toxin sacs, which, again, makes them too expensive for what they're supposed to do.

How the heck can they not hide behind gaunts or area terrain? Rippers, even with some ground clearance, are easily screened by, well, just about anything.

True that they cannot screen monstrous creatures. That is not their role.

Now, I'm not saying their great, but they certainly bring more to the table than OOE. Heck, OOE makes sky-slashers look positively amazing. You know what the difference between OOE and Sky-slashers is ? Sky slashers actually have to be dealt with. OOE is a gigantic point sink that can be safely ignored for most of the battle, and if by some sheer chance he gets into a position to threaten things, he can easily be killed in one round of shooting. He sucks, man.

The pyrovore sucks for many of the same reasons above. You could put them in a spore, yes, but they become so situational as to be worthless most of the time. If you don't take a spore, they footslog for the entire battle and then explode and kill your own guys. They suck.


The thing is I've actually tried all of these units. I've tried to make pyrovores work especially, but they just don't. They are incredibly mediocre against infantry, in an army that has many truly excellent options at murdering infantry.

clansman
23-06-2010, 17:28
For Eldar I would put forward dark reapers. They are expensive points wise, as pricey as a shining spear, take up a precious HS slot and they are far too specialised as meq only killers. They are in need of some anti tank loving or points drop to be any good.

MadCowCrazy
23-06-2010, 19:34
For WH I would say : Repentia and Penitent Engines.
Repentia costs too much, gets shot to pieces and even if they get into CC they always strike last.
Penitent Engines are just fail, 2+ on a pen to destroy one if in squadron (1+ if AP1), 3+ (2+ if AP1) if solo. Getting a pen on AV11 is not that hard.

IcedAnimals
23-06-2010, 20:06
If you're using Pariahs AND the Deceiver, there won't be a late-game. Phase Out will destroy you, especially with the likes of Battlecannons wiping squads out with little effort.

I actually took pariahs and the deceiver (but no mono) my last game I played as necrons and almost tabled my opponent. (Though I did still lose as I totally spaced that meganobz are a scoring unit since she had a warboss)

Blink
23-06-2010, 23:28
You are spending a whole lot of points on this combo though, and Pariahs are still rather easy to take out. They might be T5, but I would still focus on taking out that unit. Pariahs have some great special rules, the problem is that they will most likely not be allowed to use them.

Naw, with cover and a lord attached to them for wound allocation, and a Monolith or other terrain blocking LOS, they will often last the entire game.


If you're using Pariahs AND the Deceiver, there won't be a late-game. Phase Out will destroy you, especially with the likes of Battlecannons wiping squads out with little effort.

Why people think this is beyond me. Phase Out has only happened to me twice and that was against very assaulty Orks and Nids. Any competent Necron player will follow a few key strategies and NEVER have to worry about phase out regardless of how many Necron models they take. Hell, personally, I PREFER to keep my phase out number BELOW 10 so that way I can still survive and even perhaps tie a game if I have a squad of warriors out of LOS or coming in last turn from reserves.

GrogDaTyrant
23-06-2010, 23:59
Orks: Skorcha Wartrakk

I disagree on this... Skorcha-Trakks have always performed admirably for the past 2 editions, and 5th hasn't done anything to make them worse (yet). They're a solid choice, and arguably one of the better setups for Warbuggies/Trakks. Really the only problem with them, is their fragility... But that's not a major issue considering how dirt cheap they are.

I think the players who believe Skorcha-Trakks to be a bad unit, are probably the ones who are stuck playing against Mech-MEQ and little else. Against Nids or rival Ork players, they can be a god-send... although amittedly a short-lived one.

Thrax
24-06-2010, 02:01
Agreed. Skorchas are terrific. They usually survive long enough to do some serious damage because the orks bring such a target rich environment skorchas tend to slip under the radar. It's hard to find a bad ork unit but I'll nominate the looted wagon. It isn't terrible but it competes in the heavy slot and is a bit fragile and unreliable.

Evol Intent
24-06-2010, 02:23
Well, here's my list of what I would consider worst units in each codex.

Witchhunters: Penitent Engines/Repentia
Daemons: Furies
Eldar: Vypers/Guardians
Chaos Marines: Spawn
Black Templars: Initiate Bikers
Blood Angels: TechMarines
Daemonhunters: Daemonhosts? This whole book is pretty bad.
Dark Eldar: Scourges (T3 5+sv jump infantry with Heavy weapons?)
Imperial Guard: Ogryn & Techpriests
Necrons: Pariah's
Orks: Skorcha Wartrakk
Marines: Legion of the Damned and Vanguard Veterans
Space wolves: Thunderwolf Cavalry
Tau: Gun Drone Squads and Vespids.
Tyranids: Old One Eye and Pyrovores
Dark Angels: Scouts

Fixed the only problem I saw; otherwise I agree with this list completely.

Sykorax
24-06-2010, 03:03
Marshel. It's a nice account of things with Chronos. i will give you that lol. Almost hurt my head reading your reply though :).
It's because he's right. The truth usually hurts.


However, and perhaps it is jut the list I am fielding or the fact I like the model, I still find a useful asset to have. Even if I am just paying those extra points to make the cheap transport veichle suddenly become something people want to pop.
So then the "cheap transport" no longer remains cheap and costs more than a predator for AV11.


I just feel that it doesn't make him the worst unit in the army. He has his uses even if they are obscure uses for which his points aren't worth it.
What unit in the codex has more obscure uses at a higher cost?


Devistators as a personal opinion are redundent. Yes they can get a cover save, yes they can be harder to deal with than a tank. But the points cost for them makes them not worth their use. They may bring something to the army. However the cost of what they bring to the army could be used on something that does it better for less.
This doesn't really make sense. Redundant or redundancy means repetitive or excessive. I don't see how personal opinions are either. The last line you wrote applies directly to Chronus though.


A clever deployment makes the Razorback nice and hiden in the first turn. Second turn they have drop Pods, and Scouts in their face and assault them to the stage where they forget about the Razorback. Of course the unit inside the Razorback is another unit that people find redundent, but I like the Honour Guard unit with Kantor.
So... a clever deployment means to take a bad overpriced transport, with an upgrade that makes it even more overpriced moving 6" a turn holding another overpriced unit geared for combat (thus delaying it getting into assault) in order to fire the razorback. Sounds awesome

wyvirn
24-06-2010, 06:16
Anyone care to defend Old One Eye?

Well, it had a kick@$$ story back in the 3rd edition codex...

And speaking of tyranids, did anyone mention the ripper swarm? Yes, they have agood point/wound ratio, but its outweighed by the fact that will eat themselves[/I] if there not within 12 inches of a synapse creature. Also, a single wound from a blast template will often kill 2 of em, and to top it all off they can't capture objective. There's a bunch of hate for the pyrovore, but thats just because he is new, causing ripper swarms to be swept under the rug.

Wade Wilson
24-06-2010, 09:52
Quick note to point out that Dark Angel Scouts have the same statlines as regular marines bar a 4+ save. They are also fiendishly cheap(in a codex of points expensive units), have the option of having 2 c/c weapons for free (bolt pistol and chainsword), infiltrate and move through cover. Truth be told id prefer them to DA assault marines. Their one downside is they are elites rather than troops (easily solved by including Belial for troop choice terminators) I wouldnt call them the worst DA unit, not when we have Ezekial, the crazy expensive Master Librarian who...cant really do much. If mind worm was assault 1 rather than heavy 1 and he could use 2 powers a turn (eg, mind worm and hellfire, both shooting) then he would maybe be worth it.

Mindshred
24-06-2010, 12:29
How the heck can they not hide behind gaunts or area terrain? Rippers, even with some ground clearance, are easily screened by, well, just about anything.

They're poor in area terrain because they take wounds from landing in it, and they fail to gain cover from gaunts because they're flying models. I mean, I could see it if you're getting creative with your modeling, but generally any sort of flying base will put them well above a basic gaunt model.



True that they cannot screen monstrous creatures. That is not their role.

So what is their role? Tarpitting things? Basic gaunts already do that better and for cheaper, as a single model with a power fist will rip through your slashers far too quickly. And if you try to land in terrain or move out of synapse, they'll kill themselves off.

If you desperately need rippers to tarpit things that badly, you can just go with basic rippers and call it good. The only thing that skyslashers bring to the table is jump infantry, and that's not saying much.



Now, I'm not saying their great, but they certainly bring more to the table than OOE. Heck, OOE makes sky-slashers look positively amazing. You know what the difference between OOE and Sky-slashers is ? Sky slashers actually have to be dealt with. OOE is a gigantic point sink that can be safely ignored for most of the battle, and if by some sheer chance he gets into a position to threaten things, he can easily be killed in one round of shooting. He sucks, man.

Old One Eye isn't great by any means, but he's still able to cause some damage once he actually gets into melee.



The pyrovore sucks for many of the same reasons above. You could put them in a spore, yes, but they become so situational as to be worthless most of the time. If you don't take a spore, they footslog for the entire battle and then explode and kill your own guys. They suck.

They're certainly situational, but at least they have an (albeit narrow) niche, in that they're poddable flamers.

Skyslashers, meanwhile, are just as situational, and their job can be more easily accomplished by gargoyles, which are cheaper, able to shoot things, able to screen MCs, and are pretty effective in combat when fully upgraded (at which point they're still only half the price of a skyslasher brood).

And they don't kill themselves when they're out of synapse range.



The thing is I've actually tried all of these units. I've tried to make pyrovores work especially, but they just don't. They are incredibly mediocre against infantry, in an army that has many truly excellent options at murdering infantry.

Pyrovores at least bring the option of flaming units that are hiding in cover against your grenade-lacking army. It's not a great option, but it's still there.


Skyslashers, though, are simply redundant and overpriced, as there's nothing they do that can't be done by either basic rippers or gargoyles.


I'm not claiming that OOE or the Pyrovore are good (they're not), but they at least bring options to the table.

Laughingmonk
24-06-2010, 16:43
They're poor in area terrain because they take wounds from landing in it, and they fail to gain cover from gaunts because they're flying models. I mean, I could see it if you're getting creative with your modeling, but generally any sort of flying base will put them well above a basic gaunt model.

They're jump infantry. Gargoyles are unique in being the only jump infantry in the game mounted on some sort of flying stand. My sky slashers are regular rippers with wings. They pretty much have the profile of a regular ripper. Even Necron scarabs, who have some ground clearance, are still easily screened by gaunts. I would actually say its the opposite; you would have to be very creative with your modeling for sky slashers to NOT be able to be screened.





So what is their role? Tarpitting things? Basic gaunts already do that better and for cheaper, as a single model with a power fist will rip through your slashers far too quickly. And if you try to land in terrain or move out of synapse, they'll kill themselves off.

If you desperately need rippers to tarpit things that badly, you can just go with basic rippers and call it good. The only thing that skyslashers bring to the table is jump infantry, and that's not saying much.

No, sky slashers stand to kill many things in close combat. The fact that they are swarm bases allows you to easily get more attacks from them. Flying stands take up a lot of space.

Power fists are a problem for many things in the army. Use the fact that they are jump infantry to avoid them.

True about the synapse thing. The dangerous terrain thing somewhat mitigated by the fact that they are multiwound bases. 15 gargoyles entering terrain: 15 dangerous terrain tests. 5 sky-slasher bases: 5 dangerous terrain tests.



Old One Eye isn't great by any means, but he's still able to cause some damage once he actually gets into melee.




They're certainly situational, but at least they have an (albeit narrow) niche, in that they're poddable flamers.

Skyslashers, meanwhile, are just as situational, and their job can be more easily accomplished by gargoyles, which are cheaper, able to shoot things, able to screen MCs, and are pretty effective in combat when fully upgraded (at which point they're still only half the price of a skyslasher brood).

And they don't kill themselves when they're out of synapse range.

OOE will never see melee. Therefore he is effective in NO situations. A walking meleefex is awful. A walking meleefex that costs 260 points and can't take a mycetic spore is downright unusable against anything resembling a competent opponent.

Sky slashers are quite effective against a wide variety of targets. If your target has defensive grenades, for example, Sky slashers are better than gargoyles.




Pyrovores at least bring the option of flaming units that are hiding in cover against your grenade-lacking army. It's not a great option, but it's still there.


Skyslashers, though, are simply redundant and overpriced, as there's nothing they do that can't be done by either basic rippers or gargoyles.


I'm not claiming that OOE or the Pyrovore are good (they're not), but they at least bring options to the table.

You're right. Pyrovores aren't a great option. Their an irrevocably terrible option. There are way to many things that completely shut down the poddable flamer tactic: Scattering out of range. Being mounted on a carnifex sized base whilst trying to line up a shot with a flame template. Having your target be in a vehicle. Having target have a 3+ or better armor save. Having your target be spread out.

I feel you're grasping at straws here. You're saying that sky slashers are more situational and over priced/worthless than Pyrovores and OOE. I think you are alone in that assessment. True, I think Sky-slashers are a sub par choice.... but that is simply because gargoyles are in the list at the price they are at. If gargoyles weren't there.... Sky-slashers would be a realistic option.

The difference is that sky-slashers can perform their role: they're just mediocre at it. OOE can't perform his role at all. In the case of the pyrovore, its that the role is so niche as to be completely unusable half the time.

Creeping Dementia
24-06-2010, 17:05
Just based on the Armies I play:

Witch Hunters: Repentia, (Elite) Inquisitors, Penitent Engines
Tau: Ethereals, Vespid, Gun Drone squads, All the Special Characters.
Space Marines: I play White Scars soooo.... anything not on a Bike or Speeder :angel:. (Just kidding you fanboyz, calm down)

kahohess
24-06-2010, 19:09
Black Templars: heavy weapon equiped crusader squads.(only thing I could think of)
+1 for the Land Speeder Typhoon.

carldooley
24-06-2010, 19:36
+1 for the Land Speeder Typhoon.

that depends. The one that is still Str5 Blast Twin Linked is terrible. The one that mounts what is effectively a dual Missile Launcher is extremely effective (and I always run a full squadron of them when playing SM, SW or BA) - just don't expect them to survive the game.

kahohess
24-06-2010, 23:13
The one that is still Str5 Blast Twin Linked is terrible.

That's the one i'm refering too, BT are still using it.

Brettila
25-06-2010, 05:29
Seriously? Look over the codex again. Fuegan is the best PL by a mile. Long range melta that hits on skill 7, S5 monstrous creature in CC, ignores cover sves for guys and vehicles, feel no pain and eternal warrior, tank hunter. He is pretty darn good for Eldar, who do not have independent characters to match other codexes.

Mr. Havok
25-06-2010, 05:40
SM: TF Cannon
CSM: Ahriman/Spawn
Eldar: Swooping Hawks
Dark Eldar: Mandrakes/Hellions
DH: Have to agree with Daemonhosts
WH: Repentia
BT: Scout Bikers
DA: Attack Bikes (well, it's the only *really, really* bad unit in that book)
SW: Scout Bikers (again)
Tau: Gun Drone units
Orks: Flash Gitz
IG: Penal Legion
Daemons: Seekers/ Furies
Necrons: Flayed Ones/Wraiths
Nids: Pyrovores. Why.
Greetz.
Havok out.

HK-47
25-06-2010, 05:49
Daemons: Seekers/ Furies

What's wrong with Seekers?

The Marshel
25-06-2010, 09:12
SM: TF Cannon


perfectly viable alternative to the whirlwind and painful for swarmy armies, not competitively great but marines can do far worse

mulkers
25-06-2010, 11:18
Necrons: Flayed Ones/Wraiths
.

What? You can build an effective army around just these two units and the minimum FO

Blink
25-06-2010, 11:21
What? You can build an effective army around just these two units and the minimum FO

Yeah, I've spent most of this topic explaining that to people. There's a pretty stubborn opinion base here it seems.

Sarapham
25-06-2010, 13:05
SW: Scout Bikers (again)

Greetz.
Havok out.

Yeah they are pretty bad seeing as they don't exist in the SW codex. If you mean Swiftclaws I must strongly disagree.

stormboy
25-06-2010, 15:21
I will again say that Flashgits are much better than Tankbustas.

Not only are tankbustas hampered by ridiculous rules - but you need to screen them with your own vehicles in order for them to be effective. I want my battlewagons and looted vehicles worrying about killing the enemy - not blocking line of sight to my tankbustas.

Flashgits are reliable at taking down light vehicles and have access to 3 rerolls and feel no pain. As well as a kick ass character. What do Tankbustas get you? Squighounds that can blow up your own vehicles and 15 rokkits that a smart enemy will drag all over the battlefield to make them ineffective.

Pawn of Decay
25-06-2010, 15:24
Although the best thing about Tankbustas is how Orky can you get? lol

fwacho
28-06-2010, 02:38
units from my experience that are just not worth it.

ELDAR: Heavy Support weapon battery. (nobody fields these, nobody) note... I still remember when swooping hawks were considered too good.
TAU: vespids. They were called broken when they first came out.. now they occupy shelves
Necrons: Pariahs... I have tried again and again to make them work. no dice. The flayed ones at least have some potential.

nids: Lictors just don't got it anymore.

Blink
28-06-2010, 05:08
Necrons: Pariahs... I have tried again and again to make them work. no dice. The flayed ones at least have some potential.

What exactly have you tried?

ehlijen
28-06-2010, 05:42
The worst unit I could think of:

Company command squad with:
-Creed
-Kell
-Nork
-Medic
-Heavy flamer
-Sniper rifle
-MoO, AP and OotF
-Camo cloaks
-Kraks
No Transport

That's 505 points of utter cross purpose nonsense :p
Let's list more worst specific units :D It's fun!

Blink
28-06-2010, 05:44
Let's list more worst specific units It's fun!

Necron: Disruption Field Warriors.

IcedAnimals
28-06-2010, 06:48
20 Sisters repentia? 400+ point unit with no transport is impossible to hide, can only melee, suck at melee, you have no control over. And are incredibly squishy.

The Inevitable One
28-06-2010, 07:10
What ever happened to Gretchin/Grots? Flash Gitz surely must be better than Gretchin/Grots.

Pawn of Decay
28-06-2010, 09:21
Nope. Grots for 40 pts gives you a unit of 10 to shove on an objective in cover who can just go to ground all day. A troops choice for 40pts? how can that be bad :)

Lukasz_VT
28-06-2010, 09:33
ELDAR: Heavy Support weapon battery. (nobody fields these, nobody) note... I still remember when swooping hawks were considered too good.



My vote would be specifically the shadow weaver support as the worst Eldar unit (S6, AP-, blast). Eldar can get plenty of better S6 shots out, e.g. with warwalkers, which would be using that valuable HS slot.

Hawks are a horrendously confused unit, so my vote would also fall with them. Guardians are fine, especially storm guardians :)

AFnord
28-06-2010, 11:10
Nope. Grots for 40 pts gives you a unit of 10 to shove on an objective in cover who can just go to ground all day. A troops choice for 40pts?

And they can also be used as a shock attack gun shield. Small grot units are good to have in almost any ork army.

Bunnahabhain
28-06-2010, 13:13
Leman russ punisher with Pask, heavy flamer, multi-meltas, pintle storm bolter, hunter killer missile, extra armour, dozer blade and cammo netting.

325 points of totally mixed weaponry, that ends up being fairly bad at everything!
20 S5 24" shots AP-
2 S4 24" shots Ap5
1 S5 Template AP4
1 S8 unlimited AP3
2 S8 24" shots AP1

Grimtuff
28-06-2010, 14:15
Oh what utter chod this thread is. Why is it in Internet land everyone seems to use 100% mech lists on boards with no terrain?

OOE or Lone Wolves will never make HTH? Have people heard of Running or you know? Assault units in your opponent's army that will want to press forward too, or indeed ANY unit that needs to get beyond it's own deployment zone to capture objectives.

Sheesh! :rolleyes:

fluffstalker
28-06-2010, 14:26
Well I wont agree with no terrain, but the vast majority of lists nowadays are mech for good reason. Running troops will rarely reach combat, and if they do, they'll need good rolls to pop the vehicles, and if they do, whatever is inside will just lol rapid fire them to death.

Grimtuff
28-06-2010, 15:47
Well I wont agree with no terrain, but the vast majority of lists nowadays are mech for good reason. Running troops will rarely reach combat, and if they do, they'll need good rolls to pop the vehicles, and if they do, whatever is inside will just lol rapid fire them to death.

Good lord, Internethammer strikes again! Troops on foot will never reach HTH? :wtf:

My Footslogging SW army makes HTH with the vast majority of it's units every time. The majority of lists are not "mech" at all. What about armies that cannot do this, such as Tyranids or Daemons?

Do people REALLY play this game by sitting in tanks on their board edge and speeding forwrd to claim objectives on the last turn. If so, i'll tell you what kind of people these are, they are the kind of people who's idea of tactics appears to be rolling dice.

They are the same kinds of drongos that are using a hell of a lot of these units incorrectly. Case in point, Flash Gitz. Why do people see them as a shooty unit? Run them exactly as you would Nobz (funnily enough they are Nobz in eavy armour with a free nasty gun) who just happen to have a kick ass shooting attack to use before they charge in. Yes, that is correct. FG are Brutal in HTH. 4 S5 attacks each? Yes please. They can make a mess of a lot of units out there.

But oh wait? They're footslogging, they can never get there. Give them a Battlewagon, but this means other squads cannot take it. But Internetland says Orks Hordes are competative, which means big mobs on foot. :confused:

Go figure.

Bunnahabhain
28-06-2010, 16:25
Do people REALLY play this game by sitting in tanks on their board edge and speeding forwrd to claim objectives on the last turn. If so, i'll tell you what kind of people these are, they are the kind of people who's idea of tactics appears to be rolling dice.


Too blooming true....

I regularly play Mech guard, and I've done so since 4th ed. I suppose this makes me one of the older guard who haven't jumped on them as the power list.

They manoeuvre and advance, and use each other as cover, and generally don't sit still at the edge of the board. I had enough of that back in 4th ed, when advancing in anything but the most careful, planned, and supported with fire-power fashion was certain death most of the time for Guard, and I have no desire to play like that unless I have to.

Of course, maybe I'm biased, by not caring about losing, have opponents who prefer games to be fun, and play at a club with lots of decent terrain, and big tables, but I can't see how a less interesting, and less tactically powerful way of playing is a good idea...

GrogDaTyrant
28-06-2010, 16:59
They are the same kinds of drongos that are using a hell of a lot of these units incorrectly. Case in point, Flash Gitz. Why do people see them as a shooty unit? Run them exactly as you would Nobz (funnily enough they are Nobz in eavy armour with a free nasty gun) who just happen to have a kick ass shooting attack to use before they charge in. Yes, that is correct. FG are Brutal in HTH. 4 S5 attacks each? Yes please. They can make a mess of a lot of units out there.

But oh wait? They're footslogging, they can never get there. Give them a Battlewagon, but this means other squads cannot take it. But Internetland says Orks Hordes are competative, which means big mobs on foot. :confused:

Go figure.

The problem to Flash Gitz isn't their utility, but their price tag and what you get. Especially considering you need to baby-sit them with an HQ if Badrukk isn't present. The other major issue to them, is that they practically require a transport due to how fragile they are (even with a Painboy). They will get shot, and they will frequently flee if there isn't a character with them. Without a Transport option, one is almost required to spend a 2nd heavy support choice on a Battlewagon or Looser Wagon, unless you want to dragoon a transport from some other unlucky mob.

But yes, they CAN work. I've seen them used to good effect, but if you want something shooty and good in combat, there are plenty of other extremely viable and effective choices in the Ork codex.


As for Grots, they have numerous uses. Objective-holders is a poor one IMHO... but they are also cheap and useful cover screens, speed-bumps, and can be MC/Walker tarpits.

sir samuel
28-06-2010, 21:39
for eldar it has to be the swooping hawk pheonix lord

Blink
28-06-2010, 23:45
I see a lot of what Grimtuff is talking about ALL the time. Online especially over the last couple days, everyone and their cousin's toothless piranha seem to think there is just one way to play this game... Tell them otherwise and suddenly you're condescendingly a genius above the brain-dead masses. Though I'm okay with that, having MORE than enough wins using a list with EVERY Necron unit people have claimed to be the worst in this thread.

It's just ridiculous how some people THINK games go down especially with 100% tanks and no one ever hopping out.

carldooley
28-06-2010, 23:55
for eldar it has to be the swooping hawk pheonix lord

yah, the only time I EVER took a phoenix lord was because i thought they were autarchs on top of everything else (the only thing I could think of to justify their costs). After it was pointed out to me that they aren't I dropped it like a hot potato and didn't touch it again until I sold my Eldar.

Grimtuff
29-06-2010, 10:46
I see a lot of what Grimtuff is talking about ALL the time. Online especially over the last couple days, everyone and their cousin's toothless piranha seem to think there is just one way to play this game... Tell them otherwise and suddenly you're condescendingly a genius above the brain-dead masses. Though I'm okay with that, having MORE than enough wins using a list with EVERY Necron unit people have claimed to be the worst in this thread.

It's just ridiculous how some people THINK games go down especially with 100% tanks and no one ever hopping out.

Precisely. I've played with many of the Necron units you suggest (in fact, my regular list is a Wraithwing, one of the other "useless" units. Though I may have to try and kind a a way to squeeze some Pariahs in due to said list using Deciever) to great success.

I'm going out on a limb and i've NEVER played a mech list in these past 2 editions. I'm kindof tainted by the "Rhino Rush" lists of 3rd edition, you know the ones, full of Blood Angels with their overcharged engines and potential first turn charges...

Sure, there are some units that are certainly "sub par" such as Pyrovores, but they are far from useless. Experiment a bit, see what happens when they are actually used on the battlefield.

fluffstalker
29-06-2010, 13:34
You footslog SW and make it into Hth with the majority of the units? May I ask, what armies do you play against? If its mostly tyranids and orcs, I suppose, I could understand.

And for the record, I dont play mech either, its too boring :). I play infantry guard mostly these days, and not pure gunline either.

AFnord
29-06-2010, 14:42
OOE or Lone Wolves will never make HTH? Have people heard of Running or you know? Assault units in your opponent's army that will want to press forward too, or indeed ANY unit that needs to get beyond it's own deployment zone to capture objectives.
Well, a lone unit on foot, existing in a vacuum will of course never reach the enemy lines. It is when you start to bring multiple units on foot that they become potent.

Thud
29-06-2010, 14:55
Do people REALLY play this game by sitting in tanks on their board edge and speeding forwrd to claim objectives on the last turn. If so, i'll tell you what kind of people these are, they are the kind of people who's idea of tactics appears to be rolling dice.

Sore because you lost? :p

gwarsh41
29-06-2010, 15:13
Space wolves: Bjorn the Fel Handed

I cry myself to sleep every night knowing that this is true.
Oh wait... forgot about this guy...

Canis Wolfborn. Not only is he stupid, but he turns those worthless Fenrisian Wolves into a unit that can't score, and eats up your Grey Hunters allowance!

Yup, I even have the model, I never plan on using him. Dont diss the fen wolves though. They are beasts (in both ways). Just pretend space wolves have fast ork boys who cannot shoot with +1T. get a saga of wolfkin and they are all I5! 3 attacks each on the charge means things are going to die.

Not sure where it started in the thread, but Lone wolves can make it into combat fine. As was stated, not everyone hides in the deployment zone. I have also used superior conversational skills to convince people to assault the lonewolf.... AKA, friendly taunting.

"I thought your daemon prince was some big bad carnifex eater, its only one guy! and he is under 150pt too!"

The daemon prince died in 2 turns.

Grimtuff
29-06-2010, 15:28
Sore because you lost? :p

Apparently so. According to Internetland this makes everyone I lose against a Powergamer, right? ;)

gwarsh41
29-06-2010, 15:54
Apparently so. According to Internetland this makes everyone I lose against a Powergamer, right? ;)

Only if your army is underpowered, was skipped in the codex creep, and never got a FAQ :)

big squig
30-06-2010, 01:58
Change Tau to Vespids. Just awful...

Grubnar
02-07-2010, 19:33
For Orks, I have to disagree with Stormboyz. I'm not a fan of them, and they don't find themselves in any list I build (I prefer bikes). My only real beef wit Stormboyz is that they're just a jump-pack choppa/slugga boy with a much higher price-tag, and IMHO could use some additional fleshing out with weapon upgrade options or even 'Eavy Armor (which is visually represented IMO). However numerous players swear by them, and there is something to say about having a relatively low-cost 'throw-away' combat unit that can pull off a 19-24" assault move.


In any case, my vote for the 'most useless' unit in the Ork codex has to be Flash Gitz. Yet again, there are players who swear by them and have found them useful. The lack of a transport option and their high cost for low average number of hits is what kills them for me. If they could pack their own battlewagon and had Twin-Linked built-in, I'd consider them worthwhile.

A close 2nd would be Weirdboyz/Warpheads. They're just too expensive for an HQ with no survivability, who offers minimal support for the army. Couple that with a lack of psychic-defense and the vast amounts of psychic defense amongst the Nids, Eldar, and Space Marines... and you've got a giant load of fail in what should be a 'fun and random package'. Give him armor, cybork, a real Ld value, some measure of psychic defense, and some weaponry... and you might actually have an HQ worthy of being an HQ selection. As it is, he competes with the the raw killing power of Ghaz, the bargain-price killing power of a Warboss, and the raw utility of a Big Mek. He could also be useful if he was a 1-3 elites choice.

Wazzdakka would be a strong third for me, and only useful due to being an unnecessary requirement for bike-themed lists.

I have used Flash Gits, I know other Ork players that have use Flash Gits.
But I do not personally know an Ork player that uses a Weirdboy today. The other HQ options are just so much better that he is, so he is never used.
It is sad but I thereforth think that he must be the worst unit in the Ork codex.