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Col_Festus
22-06-2010, 14:49
Hey guys, Ive always wanted to run a saurus heavy army in WHFB but I was always told skinks were the way to go. Is this still true now that 8th came along or did Saurus get a leg up?

Spiney Norman
22-06-2010, 15:01
Not really no, they will go after anything that doesn't have a great weapon and are too expensive to field in horde. Whats more the changes to the extra rank rule nerfed their spears which were actually usable under their 7th ed rules. Also bear in mind that pretty well everything bar other elites will be stubborn against them (assuming you even manage to win combat) and it looks pretty bleak indeed.

Basically saurus will be back to their 6th Ed selves.

Conversely skinks will not be the way to go either because of the new skirmish formation which makes skirmishers into slightly-harder-to-hit block infantry without rank bonuses.

I've been thinking about skink cohort hordes, but to be honest there just isn't a place in warhammer for a T2 combat block.

stegs will become extremely hard to use effectively since they will no-longer be able to break ranks, saurus cavalry will be utterly useless unless you're willing to field them in units of 15+ as they're I is pants and half of them will be dying before they get to strike. Even terradons take a hit with the new rules for flying movement.

The only things in the lizardmen army which gain significantly from 8th will probably be kroxigor and possibly Slann (depending on how magic pans out). a unit of 6 kroxis will be an absolute b****.

Bac5665
22-06-2010, 15:28
Saurus are fine in 8E.

Yes, they got taken down a peg. This is undeniable. But they are still better than skinks, which got a ridiculous nurf in 8E.

In 8E, saurus are about the same as they were before without spears. And they were good, without spears. Its just that spears were so much better. Well, now spears are 'meh' and I can go back to my HW+S saurus of 6E.

Skinks, on the other hand, got hit very hard. First of all, they were terrible in 7E. Ranked skinks that were more than minimum sized to be through-away units were terrible do to the fact that everything kills enough of them to take away the joys of flanking. Skirmishing skinks couldn't march and shoot anymore.

In 8E, ranked skinks will take even more attacks back do to step up, so get worse, and skirmishers in general get mega-nurfed. So units that were terrible get worse and units that were passable get a mega-nurf.

This brings us back around to saurus as a reasonable (if no longer godly) core choice, and since we have to load up, may as well take a bunch of them. Without spears.

Emeraldw
22-06-2010, 15:39
Aren't saurus the same now? They get the same number of attacks they did before don't they with spears?

From the quick math I have done, I would think Saurus are like Chaos warriors, watch out for them!

Malorian
22-06-2010, 15:42
Aren't saurus the same now? They get the same number of attacks they did before don't they with spears?

Honesty they reallya re the same.

Sure a few minor things have changed but the fact still remains that they are the solid troops while skinks are the fast yet fragile ones.

Leth Shyish'phak
22-06-2010, 15:56
Not really no, they will go after anything that doesn't have a great weapon

No change there then. :) Except that when the great weapons charge them, they get to go first, since my Saurus rarely got the charge in 7th, I think this is slightly better than they were.


and are too expensive to field in horde.

Its only about 460 points for a unit of 40. :D Ok, yeah a bit too expensive, but that unit isn't going anywhere. Well, unless pit of shades or the purple sun turns up... But thats what the Slann is there for.


Whats more the changes to the extra rank rule nerfed their spears which were actually usable under their 7th ed rules.

I disagree, I think Saurus spearmen are better now. Ok, the direct bonus of the spear is less, but for the same points cost, you get the same amount of attacks, the same survivability but each dead Saurus is only -1 attack instead of -2. You will get more attacks back each round than in 7th edition. Well, you have to use at least 3 ranks to benefit from this, but I think 2 ranks of Saurus is not a good idea anyway.


Also bear in mind that pretty well everything bar other elites will be stubborn against them (assuming you even manage to win combat) and it looks pretty bleak indeed.

Saurus are there to not die or run away, while killing light infantry. If you're sending them against Chaos Warriors or the like, then yes they'll lose but they'll lose for a long time. I can't see them having much trouble winning against weaker troops...


Conversely skinks will not be the way to go either because of the new skirmish formation which makes skirmishers into slightly-harder-to-hit block infantry without rank bonuses.

I've been thinking about skink cohort hordes, but to be honest there just isn't a place in warhammer for a T2 combat block.

I agree about the cohorts... They'll still be rubbish. but skirmishers will still be useful for killing big monsters, which is something quite valuable in the Lizardmen army.


stegs will become extremely hard to use effectively since they will no-longer be able to break ranks, saurus cavalry will be utterly useless unless you're willing to field them in units of 15+ as they're I is pants and half of them will be dying before they get to strike. Even terradons take a hit with the new rules for flying movement.

This is just ridiculous. My stegadon has never needed to break ranks to be useful, combine the charge with something else and it will be devastating, especially with an extra D6 hits. It also makes another excellent anvil unit.

As for half of the cavalry dieing before they strike? Well, yes if you charge into White Lions or Chaos Warriors, but not everything auto-kills T4 2+ save models that cause fear.

I really think that you're overestimating how badly Lizardmen will be hit.

Spiney Norman
22-06-2010, 16:34
No change there then. :) Except that when the great weapons charge them, they get to go first, since my Saurus rarely got the charge in 7th, I think this is slightly better than they were.

its more a case of everything else got better and saurus didn't. Given that every other unit in the game is going is going to be making either 2 or 3 times as many attacks as they did in 7th and spear saurus will have the same amount they definitely got comparably worse.


Its only about 460 points for a unit of 40. :D Ok, yeah a bit too expensive, but that unit isn't going anywhere. Well, unless pit of shades or the purple sun turns up... But thats what the Slann is there for.

I thought a 350pt unit of temple guard was expensive (esp when your slann miscasts and you've already used the cupped hands). The other problem with saurus is that they're 25mm infantry, which means that since only models in B2B, or behind models in B2B get to attack, they wont benefit from the horde rules as much as 20mm inf anyway.


Saurus are there to not die or run away, while killing light infantry. If you're sending them against Chaos Warriors or the like, then yes they'll lose but they'll lose for a long time. I can't see them having much trouble winning against weaker troops...

Against roughly the same points of Empire halberdiers the saurus would compete with them on equal turns for one, maybe two turns before they lose enough models to have their attacks reduced, when they will start losing, and they will run because the halberdiers will drastically out-CR them.

If the Empire player has the presence of thought to add a warrior priest to his halberdier unit the saurus will be lucky to last 2 turns against them.


I agree about the cohorts... They'll still be rubbish. but skirmishers will still be useful for killing big monsters, which is something quite valuable in the Lizardmen army.

you're forgetting that skirmisher manouvreability it totally gone, they'll get one turn of shooting at most before the monster charges them (since they can no longer skip around the monster's charge arc and have to stay in formation).


This is just ridiculous. My stegadon has never needed to break ranks to be useful, combine the charge with something else and it will be devastating, especially with an extra D6 hits. It also makes another excellent anvil unit.

I think as an anvil will be the only way to use a steg in 8th. It'll be useless as a hammer as flanking doesn't work unless you have two ranks. Its just the way I have always used my stegs is as a hammer to relieve my saurus units by hitting the enemy unit in the flank. That just wont be a viable tactic any more as the CR swing will be negligible and the enemy will most likely still stay.

Flank charges will be a million times more risky in 8th Ed. The days of 1 turn combats are well and truly over, combats will be lasting 3+ turns at least by my reckoning, mainly because units will be stubborn and much, much bigger than previously. So if you hit an enemy unit in the flank and it doesn't break, what you have really done is given the enemy the opportunity to flank you and swing the combat in their favour.


As for half of the cavalry dieing before they strike? Well, yes if you charge into White Lions or Chaos Warriors, but not everything auto-kills T4 2+ save models that cause fear.

They don't need to be auto-killed, whatever they charge will be stubborn with rerolls on the general's Ld, so they'll be bogged down for the rest of the game by the first unit they hit. Also fear causing will be almost totally worthless in 8th as the battle standard lets you reroll all Ld tests.

The problem with cavalry wont be that they can't do anything, but that they're a 400pt unit (10) that can't take anything without support. Plus they're another unit which can't break ranks, making them useless as a hammer.

I don't think Lizardmen will overall get much worse, but they're certainly not getting any better (and a lot of other armies are, and I do think that EotG and 6x kroxigor will be the must-have units of 8th.

Malorian
22-06-2010, 16:40
I don't think Lizardmen will overall get much worse, but they're certainly not getting any better (and a lot of other armies are, and I do think that EotG and 6x kroxigor will be the must-have units of 8th.

Given how warmachines and magic got stronger I think small elite unts like these will be in a lot of hurt really fast.

Spiney Norman
22-06-2010, 16:46
Given how warmachines and magic got stronger I think small elite unts like these will be in a lot of hurt really fast.

Thats one of the reasons why I think we'll see an EotG in every list, that 5+ ward is going to be gold. a becalming cog slann will be a different kettle of fish as well, it should effectively cripple your opponent's casting, as in 7th, but it will also prevent him from miscasting.

My feeling is that Kroxigor will be fast enough to charge on T2, if not reliably on T3, with the engine providing them with the ward and the magic defense afforded by the Slann I think they'll do fine.

What really sucks for lizards is that you're going to have to fill up 25% of your points on Saurus (though I guess jungle swarms might become viable again depending how they swing the rules).

Malorian
22-06-2010, 16:50
5+ ward is nice but they will suffer the same fate at the venomthrope in 40k does now: it will just be the first thing to fall. (Actually they are typically targetted first as it is.)

So you'll see warmachines aiming at the EotG and magic at the krox.


With that in mind I think the krox would be better off hiding in a skink unit, then you could also mix the horde/steadfast of the skinks with the hitting power of the krox.

Spiney Norman
22-06-2010, 17:01
5+ ward is nice but they will suffer the same fate at the venomthrope in 40k does now: it will just be the first thing to fall. (Actually they are typically targetted first as it is.)

So you'll see warmachines aiming at the EotG and magic at the krox.


With that in mind I think the krox would be better off hiding in a skink unit, then you could also mix the horde/steadfast of the skinks with the hitting power of the krox.

I've run Skrox in 7th, the skinks die so fast that the unit can't possibly win combat, besides a horde unit of Skrox would cost like million points.

Tarliyn
22-06-2010, 17:36
I've run Skrox in 7th, the skinks die so fast that the unit can't possibly win combat, besides a horde unit of Skrox would cost like million points.

Yeah I tried putting together a list of 2 horde units of skroxs it was not visible in the slightest. Also something else that is nerfing spear saurus, though they are getting more attacks 6 of those attacks are easier to take away from them. If you get to that third rank of saurus which won't be that hard since you won't really ever see more than 24-30 saurus in a single unit due to cost than they are loosing attacks.

In comparison to everything else in the game the saurus got nerfed hard. Skinks got nerfed hard, cav got nerfed hard, non-eotg stegs got nerfed hard, terradons got nerfed, carnosaur got nerfed, magic may have gotten a slight nerf (that remains to be seen, despite the new powerful lores it certainly didn't get better, horrid miscast combined with unreliable dice generation is bad). You probably won't see temple guard on the board anymore since throwing a slann in with them is too much of a liability.

Razordons stayed the same and Salamanders got a buff, though.

Overall lizardmen received an across the board nerf while most armies got buffed.

Malorian
22-06-2010, 18:27
I've run Skrox in 7th, the skinks die so fast that the unit can't possibly win combat, besides a horde unit of Skrox would cost like million points.

Just did some trials and although it really isn't that expensive compared to some other hordes (I was going with 10 wide with 4 krox) and the krox packed a hell of a punch, they eventually lose as the skinks just die so quickly as you said.

I mean you can keep adding skinks to make them super huge and more resilient, but after doing the math I can see that it would end up being fairly pointless.

WS 2 and T 2 is just a recipe for a bloodbath...

Tarliyn
22-06-2010, 18:30
Just did some trials and although it really isn't that expensive compared to some other hordes (I was going with 10 wide with 4 krox) and the krox packed a hell of a punch, they eventually lose as the skinks just die so quickly as you said.

I mean you can keep adding skinks to make them super huge and more resilient, but after doing the math I can see that it would end up being fairly pointless.

WS 2 and T 2 is just a recipe for a bloodbath...

Yeah that is the problem they have always had. Even in this edition when I would use them they would almost always give up more cr than they would add.

If anyone does find a use for a skrox unit come 8th by all means inform all of us, lol.

I am discouraged about my lizardmen coming up but by no means intend on no longer playing them or buying minis for them. In fact I entered them in an 8th ed campaign my store is running : )

I am hopeful that things won't be as bad as they seem.

Bac5665
22-06-2010, 18:34
I'm going to drop my EotG because TLoS will make it so that its impossible to hide the thing. The skink priest on top used to be able to be hidden behind a hill, not now.

It was already such that the EotG would be the first thing targeted, and if your opponent had multiple cannons or BTs, you may have have lost it by turn 2. Now, with TLoS, it will be even sooner. I'd rather just take more of the good stuff rather than a 450 point unit that will very fast, trying to protect everything else.

For Skrox units, I like them better in 8E, as flankers. On the flank, you don't get supporting attacks, but the skinks will, so they may actually make up their points, at least against everything with only 1 attack. I don't know, probably not. But its a new addition, time to try new things ;)

Spiney Norman
22-06-2010, 18:35
Yeah that is the problem they have always had. Even in this edition when I would use them they would almost always give up more cr than they would add.

If anyone does find a use for a skrox unit come 8th by all means inform all of us, lol.

I am discouraged about my lizardmen coming up but by no means intend on no longer playing them or buying minis for them. In fact I entered them in an 8th ed campaign my store is running : )

I am hopeful that things won't be as bad as they seem.

I think they'll be ok, Lizardmen are very strong in 7th, so they can probably accommodate a slight power down without becoming unplayable. The main armies to gain from 7th I think will be Empire, Skaven and maybe dwarfs. O&G will probably get a bit better as well, but their so bad at the moment it'll be barely noticeable.

Malorian
22-06-2010, 18:42
O&G will probably get a bit better as well, but their so bad at the moment it'll be barely noticeable.

First of all :mad:

Second of all, everyone should be fearing large units of night goblins with multiple 34 point great weapon night goblin big bosses.

These worked well before 7th, and now with steadfast these guys are going to be pure nasty in a can.

Cragspyder
22-06-2010, 18:46
Well, Skrox are now the fastest moving rank buster we have... seeing as you won't be taking 2 ranks of Cold One Cavalry (which loses the rank with 1 death), and won't be taking units of 6 Kroxigor just to hit a flank.

This is a very discouraging thread for a longtime Lizardman player like myself, especially since I dunno what half these nerfs ARE! (what happened to flyers? what happened to skirmishers???) I mean the flank charge rule hurts enough, and the loss of Fear (as anything useful) means my Tomb Kings are dead (Hah!) in the water anyways....

I wish they had just released the book instead of making us wait a month. I hate having to use glimpses of the book in the store (while frantically searching the internet for an bootlegged PDF and random confirmed rumours) just to even guess at what I am going to have to change in my list.

Rajhald
22-06-2010, 19:22
I may have read it completely wrong but it seems to me that a unit of 24 saurus 6x4 will be quite nasty. Spears still give them the same number of attacks that they had in 7th, yes all other armies now fight in two ranks standard, but that will now only equal the base number of attacks the front rank of saurus have. And with the back ranks stepping up to fill in the gaps I plan to have 24 saurus attacks for a long time.

As for Stegadons, there is no way I'll be taking an EotG any longer, not with templates and cannons hitting everything on a monsterous mount if it touches the base. That means if someone hits the Steg that the priest is auto hit, and he can't live through that. I'll be taking a regular steg for the bow, not to mention the impact plus d6 stomp will be deadly.

I don't see terradons as being nerfed at all, they are still aboreal predators, but no longer hiding completely in woods does suck.

I see 8th as just an evolution, GW's purpose is not to make armies unplayable (even though it happens). I feel certain that the .pdf release will make changes to help everyone out.

but for now I have to keep 7th on the brain for Bayou Battles.

N810
22-06-2010, 19:54
I gues you guys missed the rumor that Blow pipes and javelins are now in a different weapon class, in 8th they will allways be able to stand and shoot, also they increased the ranges a bit, We have never realy had an army that won through combat res,
Lizies have allways won through brute force and cunning, seeing how most of out units
cause fear or terror with the new rule that fear/terror test are taken in every round (with the new penality), we are looking a a very surivable army, and with coldblood
and no more autobreaks from fear causers we should almost never run from a fight.
Consider that most of the rares ans specials gained a stomp attack, we gained some power there.

Emeraldw
22-06-2010, 19:55
First of all :mad:

Second of all, everyone should be fearing large units of night goblins with multiple 34 point great weapon night goblin big bosses.

These worked well before 7th, and now with steadfast these guys are going to be pure nasty in a can.

First. Why are you mad about that? I assume you think O&G are actually decent or you hate hearing that?

I thought there was something that prevents spamming? I am sure you could have 3 or so at least but since Steadfast is on your unmodified leadership, I am not sure how you might protect the goblin Big Boss or hold normally on ld 6.

enigma-96
22-06-2010, 21:00
I thought there was something that prevents spamming? I am sure you could have 3 or so at least but since Steadfast is on your unmodified leadership, I am not sure how you might protect the goblin Big Boss or hold normally on ld 6.

There is something that prevents spamming but it only applies to special and rare choices, at least that's what the store manager said. I actually played a game with a front rank of 10 goblin big bosses all with great weapons, it was both ridiculous and awesome at the same time. Also steadfast does mention it's only on the unmodified leadership but when this argument came up at my local store the special ability of the general, inspiring presence I believe, clearly states that for the purposes of leadership checks even those using steadfast may use his leadership, therefore goblins are actually looking to be a very very good army in eigth edition. Top tier? No, but people who go around saying that they still blow are clearly misinformed or ignorant of just how much the new rules favour the little green men.

On the topic of lizard men in eighth I will agree that they did suffer a slight power decrease but the doom and gloom that people are talking about is way too overblown. For instance stegadons gained thunderstomp which is a ridiculously good bonus, sure you can't directly charge the front ranks anymore but if you flanked with a monster who already adds quite a bit to combat and then has an added D6 strength 5 attacks to the mix? You're going to be turning the combat definately in your favor, especially since the stegadon is incredibly unlikely to take wounds from the few enemies in base contact with it. Let's not forget either that it is very very easy to give saurus a decent armour save for a decent price. So instead of treating the lizard men like a combat army we should be armoring them up and using support units like the stegadon to add that last little punch to win battles. I believe it was stated before but much of the changes to lizard men aren't a nerf so much as they are a change in tactics.

So the solution? Best be heading back to the spawning pools boys ;)

Malorian
22-06-2010, 21:10
The only thing that stops large units is when there is a top range in the book (like 5-15), but for a lot of other units it just says #+ meaning there is no limit.

Col_Festus
22-06-2010, 21:10
Yeah that monstrous mount thing kind of sucks. You will have to buy a 4+ ward for 50 points just to keep your skink priest alive =P

Emeraldw
22-06-2010, 22:07
There is something that prevents spamming but it only applies to special and rare choices, at least that's what the store manager said. I actually played a game with a front rank of 10 goblin big bosses all with great weapons, it was both ridiculous and awesome at the same time. Also steadfast does mention it's only on the unmodified leadership but when this argument came up at my local store the special ability of the general, inspiring presence I believe, clearly states that for the purposes of leadership checks even those using steadfast may use his leadership, therefore goblins are actually looking to be a very very good army in eigth edition. Top tier? No, but people who go around saying that they still blow are clearly misinformed or ignorant of just how much the new rules favour the little green men.


Sorry to side track off Lizardmen but...

Ok, thanks for that. I guess you'll need an orc Warboss so you hold, but isn't that about Ld 8? Not bad but not fantastic if your testing over and over. I do see that as a fantastic way to handle other basic core choices but Elite units would decimate that with those gobbos being essentially 2 wound chaos warriors without saves. Still, very interesting.

And on another side note....I love this edition change! The basics have changed completely and we have to rethink everything. I love it!

Spinocus
23-06-2010, 04:13
Geez Louise, some of you guys make it sound like it's the end of the world. Sparowl posted a batrep of an 8th ed LM vs DE game a few days ago and his prognosis wasn't filled with so much doom and gloom.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=262865

Like every other army in 8th our Lizzies lose some and they gain some.

Sure, Saurus lose some oomph due to their craptastic Init but at least now they have a good chance of getting a charge on someone as opposed to waiting for one. Saurus are still tough as nails and hit hard so unless you are incredibly unlucky or forgot to bring at least 3-4 ranks then they'll still put out a ton of hurt when they get their turn to swing.

Stegadons - No more +1 to Hit Large targets means fewer wounds to BS shooting, Terror checks for enemies every round of combat, D6 ASL Thunderstomp attacks. They still kick ass provided you don't send them in unsupported and rely on them to carry the day. Combined arms is the key.

Regarding EOTG vulnerability take note that the FIRST spell of Lore of Heavens is Ice Shard Blizzard which acts almost exactly like the Skaven Stormbanner. Anything that uses a BS to shoot has a -1 to hit modifier. Anything that doesn't use BS can only shoot on 4+. Obviously if you're going to be facing a shooty army or one with lots of templates then this is a no brainer for all of your priests. Speaking of templates I don't know if you got the note but Stonethrowers aren't exactly the bees knees anymore with S3 (S9 under hole) with armor saves.

Skink skirmishers and Chameleons may have lost their 'blob' formations and 360 LOS but they've gained the ability to march, reform AND shoot with 180 LOS... So how is this a bad thing? Marching 12", reforming to an ideal formation (one that might get them out of charge LOS) and then let loose with their javelins or blowpipes is amazing. By the way, as other have said blowpipes no longer suffer the standard -1 modifier for move & shoot, can Stand & Shoot in all instances like thrown weapons and may have even gotten a range boost. Again, tell me how our skirmishers have been nerfed?!?

Combined profiles for war machines means no more randomization of hits between gun and crew and no more immunity to poison. Also the removal of the 'N' in the To Wound chart means any STR shot simply needs a roll of 6 on a to wound a T7 war machine. Skinks and Chameleons just became even deadlier to artillery, especially if they're armed with blowpipes.

Salamanders are the new cold blooded cheese of 8th ed. March, reform and shoot templates with no partials? Yes, please.

Kroxigors - The Red headed stepchild treatment is history! All armies with monstrous infantry now have a great reason to field a 6 strong, 2 ranked unit's worth. Expensive but wow.

Overall I'm pretty enthusiastic about Lizardmen in 8th.

sephiroth87
23-06-2010, 04:23
Sorry to side track off Lizardmen but...

Ok, thanks for that. I guess you'll need an orc Warboss so you hold, but isn't that about Ld 8? Not bad but not fantastic if your testing over and over. I do see that as a fantastic way to handle other basic core choices but Elite units would decimate that with those gobbos being essentially 2 wound chaos warriors without saves. Still, very interesting.

And on another side note....I love this edition change! The basics have changed completely and we have to rethink everything. I love it!

The orc warboss is a 9. Gorbad is a 10. Orcs aren't near as bad at leadership as everyone complains about.

Sparowl
23-06-2010, 05:02
I think Saurus Warriors have gotten better, if anything.

Listen, how often did we get the charge with them before? Without magic (unseen lurker, etc.), not very often. How often did we get to attack back with a full front rank of attacks? Not very often.

I was amazed in the games I've played at how good 19 S4 attacks back are (I run Saurus 6x3 w/command).

Look, Ini 1 sucks. But S4, T4, 2 attacks base, is pretty good. If you're running Saurus heavy, you'll have to support them, both with support units and augment magic.

Take Life.....you know what, I've already said my piece on Life. If you don't know it, click on the link from Spinocus.

Take Light - WS10, Ini 10? Or how about ASF?

Beasts, Metal, Heavens, all have unit buffs. Shadow and Death can debuff the opposing units, if that's the way you want to go.

Saurus warriors are great base infantry. But like all infantry, it needs to be supported.

Paraelix
23-06-2010, 05:49
Saurus are awesome. Don't let anyone tell you different. Good T, S, and armour. Spears are a must in my eyes... You really do need the extra attacks to cut down the opponents numbers so they lose Stubborn.

Plus, with the magic-ness of your Slann, you're easily able to drop a few Augments on your dudes or some Hexes on opponents.

Plus, Lizards have access to great support options... First and foremost in the new Ed is Salamanders. These guys rape hordes who will give you a hard time. And a small unit of Chameleons are good (in spite of what everyone will tell you) for forcing early march blocking and for warmachine hunting, especially given they arn't immune to poison and you don't have to randomise.

Oh, and srsly guys? Pretty sure the EotG has had its day... and it is now past.

R Man
23-06-2010, 11:32
its more a case of everything else got better and saurus didn't. Given that every other unit in the game is going is going to be making either 2 or 3 times as many attacks as they did in 7th and spear saurus will have the same amount they definitely got comparably worse.

But Spear Saurus were stupidly good anyway. It was a complete no-brainer to upgrade. Now a player will have to make the decision based on how they want to field their Saurus, small units or big ones.


Against roughly the same points of Empire halberdiers the saurus would compete with them on equal turns for one, maybe two turns before they lose enough models to have their attacks reduced, when they will start losing, and they will run because the halberdiers will drastically out-CR them.

What are they equipped with? Because, by my reckoning, the Saurus will win the first few combats (Empire: 6 vs. Liz. 8) and even if they hold the fight will go on for a long time, down to the wire. Remember that Saurus are Cold Blooded and just as difficult to shift in 8th as in 7th. Depending on the unit sizes and layouts. And if you add a warrior priest, couldn't the Lizardmen add a Scar Veteran?


I think as an anvil will be the only way to use a steg in 8th. It'll be useless as a hammer as flanking doesn't work unless you have two ranks. Its just the way I have always used my stegs is as a hammer to relieve my saurus units by hitting the enemy unit in the flank. That just wont be a viable tactic any more as the CR swing will be negligible and the enemy will most likely still stay.

Well they do get stomp attacks, so as long as the enemy has low Strength and without numbering gone, a Stegadon could mash units all day quite effectively, and with luck indefinitely.

Also, there are other things that Favour Saurus, such as weakening of march blocking, and their I1 will be rendered almost irrelevant. Saurus Cavalry are looking far more shakey though, so perhaps itís a wait and see, but Saurus Infantry will most likely be fine.

plantagenet
23-06-2010, 11:43
Forget I posted....

I now understand why spears still only get one extra attack.

Lilike
23-06-2010, 14:55
They were not stupidly good, just an ok choice. I think they will still be an ok choice in 8:th as well.

Paraelix
23-06-2010, 15:09
Wow. There is so much Lizard-hate on this forum at the moment...

Saurus are still a really, really good unit. Chuck a BSB nearby and they are immovable.

Skinks. -1 to be hit at range. March 12" and still shoot. March blocking still does hurt armies... Forcing a test is better than... Not. Poison, hello...

Slann. Super-mage.

etc etc

Jester007
23-06-2010, 16:17
Skinks took a slight hit on losing some of their manuverability and LOS. Overall though, I think they broke even. The javelins range increased and can always stand and shoot, but suffer from long range.

Saurus are not going to benefit from Steadfast most of the time, but they will still be generating a good number of attacks. I am more inclined to field more sword and board saurus than spears. Yes, Saurus with spears in 3 ranks in 8th Ed. has as many attacks as a 3 ranked Saurus unit with spears in 7th; but as soon as you start loosing Saurus from the 3rd rank in 8th, you start losing attacks.

I an also seriously considering more of the skink cohort units just to be able to field more standards for the Breaking Point senario. I am disappointed about the new Look Out Sir rules. I probably will not be putting any of my characters on Cold Ones anymore =(. Even though I am more disappointed about the new edition, I will still find it interesting to see what changes I will have to make to my armies to make them enjoyable to play.

Sincerely,
Jester007

Frankly
23-06-2010, 16:53
LOS is a big loss for skinks Biggest blow for me is the dropping of +1 to hit large targets.

All and all manuverability is still there. B.Pipers + march looks soild, espeicially as they can get out of march block situations with cold blooded + characters/generals L.d. pretty well.

Saurus + step up = awesome, imho.

Cohorts look .... hmmmm. OK.

N810
23-06-2010, 17:09
...
Saurus are not going to benefit from Steadfast most of the time, but they will still be generating a good number of attacks. I am more inclined to field more sword and board saurus than spears. Yes, Saurus with spears in 3 ranks in 8th Ed. has as many attacks as a 3 ranked Saurus unit with spears in 7th; but as soon as you start loosing Saurus from the 3rd rank in 8th, you start losing attacks.

...Jester007


on the up side you will only be loosing 1 attack instead of loosing 2 attacks a wound. ;)

TheRaven
23-06-2010, 17:29
I'm still confused why people think spears only give saurus one extra attack. There is no rule that says "Models after the first rank only get one attack", it's not like that. The rule is that models making a "Supporting Attack" only ever do so with one attack. Supporting attacks are their own special rules and type of attacks and only the "Supporting Attacks" follow the rule of only 1A per model. Spears allow a unit to "Fight in an Extra Rank". I still don't get why people think that spears give an extra rank of supporting attacks, the rules for spears and supporting attacks dont' interact with each other. Spears give units an extra rank of attacks, that's the complete rule, work that out. Supporting attacks also give models behind the ones fighting an extra one attack per model, that's the complete rule, work that out seperately. People keep assuming that they have to work together, the way it's written in the rule book they don't.

Voss
23-06-2010, 17:44
Wow. There is so much Lizard-hate on this forum at the moment...

Saurus are still a really, really good unit. Chuck a BSB nearby and they are immovable.

Skinks. -1 to be hit at range. March 12" and still shoot. March blocking still does hurt armies... Forcing a test is better than... Not. Poison, hello...

Slann. Super-mage.

etc etc

Rather frightened by salamanders as well. 3 pairs at 2000 points with the no partials rule really devastates infantry and cav units alike. The hardiest infantry only gets 6+ save and even heavily armored cavalry units are down to a 4+.

WarmbloodedLizard
23-06-2010, 17:56
I disagree, I think Saurus spearmen are better now.

really no reason reading further... anyone can see they got quite a bit worse, especially in relative strength. the debate is whether they are still worth it or whether we should go with HW+S. (for me, I will primarily field HW+S, since they are about as good as they were in 8th)

Spinocus
23-06-2010, 18:24
Rather frightened by salamanders as well. 3 pairs at 2000 points with the no partials rule really devastates infantry and cav units alike. The hardiest infantry only gets 6+ save and even heavily armored cavalry units are down to a 4+.

I can't wait to lay down two or three of those no-partial flaming templates in a single shooting phase... :evilgrin:

Well three pairs of Salamander units would be illegal in a 2K game. Hunting Packs being Rare choices and limited by the 'no more than two units of the same type' restriction. A pair of 3 Salamander units however...

WarmbloodedLizard
23-06-2010, 19:02
I'm still confused why people think spears only give saurus one extra attack. There is no rule that says "Models after the first rank only get one attack", it's not like that. The rule is that models making a "Supporting Attack" only ever do so with one attack. Supporting attacks are their own special rules and type of attacks and only the "Supporting Attacks" follow the rule of only 1A per model. Spears allow a unit to "Fight in an Extra Rank". I still don't get why people think that spears give an extra rank of supporting attacks, the rules for spears and supporting attacks dont' interact with each other. Spears give units an extra rank of attacks, that's the complete rule, work that out. Supporting attacks also give models behind the ones fighting an extra one attack per model, that's the complete rule, work that out seperately. People keep assuming that they have to work together, the way it's written in the rule book they don't.

I really hope that spears stay the same as in 7th but it seems all attacks beyond the first rank are counted as supporting attacks. :(

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=263248

kaintxu
23-06-2010, 20:24
I'm still confused why people think spears only give saurus one extra attack. There is no rule that says "Models after the first rank only get one attack", it's not like that. The rule is that models making a "Supporting Attack" only ever do so with one attack. Supporting attacks are their own special rules and type of attacks and only the "Supporting Attacks" follow the rule of only 1A per model. Spears allow a unit to "Fight in an Extra Rank". I still don't get why people think that spears give an extra rank of supporting attacks, the rules for spears and supporting attacks dont' interact with each other. Spears give units an extra rank of attacks, that's the complete rule, work that out. Supporting attacks also give models behind the ones fighting an extra one attack per model, that's the complete rule, work that out seperately. People keep assuming that they have to work together, the way it's written in the rule book they don't.

Your wrong, spears do say that they give you one more rank of supporting attack, so only one attack

TheRaven
23-06-2010, 20:29
Your wrong, spears do say that they give you one more rank of supporting attack, so only one attack

They say "Fight" in extra rank.

N810
23-06-2010, 20:35
Originally Posted by kaintxu
Your wrong, spears do say that they give you one more rank of supporting attack, so only one attack


They say "Fight" in extra rank.


The Suport Rank is defined as the rank behind the Fighting Rank.

Blkc57
23-06-2010, 20:46
They say "Fight" in extra rank.

In the Special Rules chapter of the 8th edition book, the rule for "Fight in Extra Ranks" states that they are supportive attacks, and follow all the rules for supportive attacks. So you only get one attack per model, unless its monsterous infantry, and only to the front. I believe its on page 69 of the new new rule book.

Jester007
23-06-2010, 20:49
They say "Fight" in extra rank.

Read the rules again for "Fight In Extra Rank". Even though it says "Fight" the rules clearly state that it let's the unit have an extra rank of Supporting Attacks on a turn it does not charge.

Sincerely,
Jester007

N810
23-06-2010, 20:54
Ummm we are talking about Spear attacks...
not the Support attacks.

Blkc57
23-06-2010, 20:59
Ummm we are talking about Spear attacks...
not the Support attacks.

A spears extra attack is a supportive attack its what we are trying to explain. They clearly lay out the rules in the book for what "Fight in Extra Rank" means, and it means a supportive attack.

N810
23-06-2010, 21:01
They say "Fight" in extra rank.


A spears extra attack is a supportive attack its what we are trying to explain. They clearly lay out the rules in the book for what "Fight in Extra Rank" means, and it means a supportive attack.

I am prety sure suport attacks can only attack with a single hand weapon....

Blkc57
23-06-2010, 21:19
I am prety sure suport attacks can only attack with a single hand weapon....

I'm not sure why you think this, supportive attacks are made with the weapon used by the model. If its a halberd the supportive attacks recieve the +1 str bonus etc etc. The only exception to this is that models can never have more than 1 supportive attack no matter their special rules or profile, unless its a monsterous infantry and they get up to 3 supportive attacks.

N810
24-06-2010, 00:48
I'm not sure why you think this, supportive attacks are made with the weapon used by the model. If its a halberd the supportive attacks recieve the +1 str bonus etc etc. The only exception to this is that models can never have more than 1 supportive attack no matter their special rules or profile, unless its a monsterous infantry and they get up to 3 supportive attacks.

Well it was an early rumor....
I guess that one got disproved. :eyebrows:

the early rumor was that support attacks didn't uses weapon bonuses.

Paraelix
24-06-2010, 01:27
I'll be interested to see *which* of the new USR are ported over to Lizards... Will Sallies retain Skirmish? Will they get the new handler rules? Will they use the new "Flamethrower" warmachine profile? Will the Stand and Shoot like Warpfire Throwers?

I know I wouldn't mind a Marching S5 Flame template :D

Voss
24-06-2010, 01:41
I'll be interested to see *which* of the new USR are ported over to Lizards... Will Sallies retain Skirmish? Will they get the new handler rules? Will they use the new "Flamethrower" warmachine profile? Will the Stand and Shoot like Warpfire Throwers?

I know I wouldn't mind a Marching S5 Flame template :D

Since a lot of that is covered in the lizard book, I expect those rules to stand. Other than the march & flame idea, everything else is covered by the hunting pack rule.

If the errata throws out large chunks of each rulebook, its going to be a mess, and involve a lot more work and rebalancing than I think GW will do.

Kriptrikk
24-06-2010, 09:29
Had an 8th ed game with my lizzies yesterday and ran three blocks of 18 saurus one with spears and a block of 18 temple guard. They were awesome, so what if they're initiative one with casualties coming from the back of the unit they still get an inconceivable amount of attacks.

Plus you gotta remember these saurus are gonna be backed up by some awesome magic now, Okkams mindrazor is absolutely fantastic on saurus blocks. 19 strength 8 attacks, yes please! not to mention the supportive spells your skink priests can buff them with.

TheDireAvenger
24-06-2010, 09:40
Alright so is it Hand Weapons now or Spears for the Saurus.

THAT's ALL I WANT TO KNOW! Please someone put the final nail on the coffin once and for all.

Sparowl
24-06-2010, 09:56
I vote for HW&S.

Pro: 6+ Ward save.
Con: One less attack per file.

Spears give you: One more attack per file, but you lose 6+ Ward and Spears are more expensive.

Felworth
24-06-2010, 14:26
They were awesome, so what if they're initiative one with casualties coming from the back of the unit they still get an inconceivable amount of attacks.

Inconceivable?

I do not think that word means what you think it means.


I vote for HW&S.

Pro: 6+ Ward save.
Con: One less attack per file.

Spears give you: One more attack per file, but you lose 6+ Ward and Spears are more expensive.

Thats irritating, I just converted all but one of my saurus blocks to spear blocks...

Onidan
24-06-2010, 15:17
Thats irritating, I just converted all but one of my saurus blocks to spear blocks...

Well, thank god I build all my RnF Infantry half and half with weapon loadouts (Dwarfs 50% HW+S and 50% GW, Saurus 50% Spears and 50% HW+S and so on), just place those the unit is equipped with in the front and all set.

TheDireAvenger
24-06-2010, 15:28
So HAND WEAPONS IT IS!

Is anyone still gonna take spears? and WHY?

N810
24-06-2010, 15:30
Frankly a 6+ ward is only going to saving one out of every 6 wounds,
personaly I wold rather just have another rank of attacks...

TheDireAvenger
24-06-2010, 16:03
hm, actually you're right a 6+ save kinda stinks. Really bad actually, almost not worth it.

Spiney Norman
24-06-2010, 16:26
I vote for HW&S.

Pro: 6+ Ward save.
Con: One less attack per file.

Spears give you: One more attack per file, but you lose 6+ Ward and Spears are more expensive.

I'll be fielding one unit of each because thats the models I have.


So HAND WEAPONS IT IS!

Is anyone still gonna take spears? and WHY?

Because more str 4 attacks is better. The problem with spear blocks is that, you will need more models in the unit to make good use of them. Also with the increased effectiveness of missile weapons and the death of screening, its more important than ever to build redundancy into your units in the form of more models.

Hand weapon/shield saurus will be fine with 18 models in 3x6 formation, as you can take up to 6 casualties before you start losing attacks, on the other hand spear saurus will start losing attacks straight away if you take the same formation, so you'll realistically be wanting to add a 4th rank if you go for spears.

N810
24-06-2010, 16:34
I think we are probaly going to be forced into taking bigger blocks that 3x5 in 8th,
2x5 units problay won't even survive making it across the board or the first combat.

Kerill
24-06-2010, 16:55
Saurus were amazing in 7th, now they are just very good. Still not the end of the world and in fact they can now overcome one of their weaknesses in 7th- being rolled under by fear causing cavalry/MI/undead units and autobroken.

I'll be sticking with spears and may or may not expand my 18 strong regiment for 8th.

Sparowl
24-06-2010, 21:49
Allow me to rephrase.

I will be taking HW&S on my blocks of 18 (6x3). My reasoning is that normally that third rank is going to be mostly gone by the time I swing, resulting in the back Saurus w/Spears being wasted. And if they aren't going to be of use anyway, I'd rather not spend the points, and I'd rather get a 6+ ward.

If I was running larger blocks of say 30 or 40, I'd consider spears. But that's really really expensive for Saurus warriors.

kaintxu
24-06-2010, 22:31
hm, actually you're right a 6+ save kinda stinks. Really bad actually, almost not worth it.


Frankly a 6+ ward is only going to saving one out of every 6 wounds,
personaly I wold rather just have another rank of attacks...

Well its one out of 6 or 2 out of 12.

But how many kills is one more rank? I have allready discussed this a couple of time.

6 attacks on WS 3 equals normally 3 hits.

3 hits vs T4 AS3 = 0.75 wound
3 hits vs T4 AS4 = 1 Wound.
3 hits vs T4 AS5 = 1,25 wounds


3 hits vs T3 AS3 = 1 wound
3 hits vs T3 AS4 = 1,3333333 Wound.
3 hits vs T3 AS5 = 1,666666 wounds

So if you save one save thanks to hw/s you will be getting same combat rez but spending less points.

R Man
25-06-2010, 00:05
You have included the Saurus higher strength in that right?

If you have (I think you have), there are only a handful of Heavy units which have Sv3 and T4, and I wouldn't mind killing an extra one of them.

Also killing the enemy reduces their attacks (depending on size) and helps strip of their ranks faster which will help too. It depends on what you really want from a unit. Especially if your opponent's unit doesn't do much damage in the first place.

For Example, Empire Swordsmen (5 across) will do 2.2 wounds to the Saurus and after Saves:
Spearmen will take 1.1 wounds.
Swordsmen will take 0.93 wounds, which is hardly a difference. In return Saurus will kill 1 extra with spears.

kaintxu
25-06-2010, 03:15
Yep, its included thats why i did'nt add AS6 because saurus would cancel it.

Also add to the maths, that if opponent has hw/s themselves, they can also parry that extra wound.

Yea the extra kill is ok, but they allways go before you, so actually they reduce your attacks earlier, plus you have to play the points, you need at least 4 ranks (5x4 or 6x4) for spears to be effective, compared to 3 ranked for hw/s

Gork or Possibly Mork
25-06-2010, 06:37
In 7th I went with 2 units of 18 in 6x3 formation with spears.

In 8th I will probably go with 3 blocks of 20 in 5x4 formation. Two units with spears and one with HW&shield.