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Mango33
23-06-2010, 16:19
After scrounging for scraps on info on the upcoming 8th Edition rules I have created a first drft of a possible future list. I heard that a 3000 point army was most supported by the new rules and I want to go magic heavy for my list. How does the following look and is it compatible with 8th?

Lords

Slann Mage-Preist
Focus of Mystery
Soul of Stone
The Focused Rumination
Divine Plaque of Protection
Cupped Hands of the Old Ones

470

Slann-Mage-Preist
Higher State of Consciousness

375

Troops

28 Saurus Warriors
Musician
Standard

354

28 Saurus Warriors
Musician
Standard

354

20 Skink Skirmishers
Blowpipes

140

20 Skink Skirmishers
Blowpipes

140

20 Skink Skirmishers
Blowpipes

140

10 Skink Skirmishers
Blowpipes

70

Special

28 Temple Gaurd
Revered Gaurdian w/th Burning Blade of Chotec
Musician
Standard w/th Sun Standard of Chotec

543

Rare

3 Salamanders
3 Extra Handlers

240

Ancient Stegadon

275

thesheriff
23-06-2010, 18:56
I can see you have made your units bigger. But the skirmishers need to be shrunk to accomodate for more saurus, temple guard and spear upgrades. Yuo need units of 40. This means (assuming your lesser slaan slots in one of the saurus units), you will need an extra 20 saurus (12 in one, 8 in the other with space for the slaan), and anouther 8 temple guard. Quick calculations;

8x16 for temple guard = 128pts
20x11 for saurus = 220pts

And spears are a must. even if you don't use them, the versitility afforded is invaluable. Thats anouther 80pts.

this means you have to drop 428pts. Take this out on the hunting packs (240), and 30 skinks (210). this gives you 22 additional points to play with. I suggest breaking your ancient steg into 2 normal stegadons. for this, drop some diciplines on the head slaan, and maybe 5 or 10 suarus. 2 diciplines (100pts), 10 saurus, and the sun standard should do it

what do you think
long story short, big blocks win battles.

Mango33
23-06-2010, 20:42
Thanks for the help!! How is this?

Also sorry I forgot to add in that I had added in Spears into the costs of the units already.

Lords

Slann Mage-Preist
Focus of Mystery
Soul of Stone
Divine Plaque of Protection
Cupped Hands of the Old Ones

400

Slann-Mage-Preist
Higher State of Consciousness

275

Troops

40 Saurus Warriors
Spears
Musician
Standard

480

36 Saurus Warriors
Spears
Musician
Standard

432

10 Skink Skirmishers
Blowpipes

70

10 Skink Skirmishers
Blowpipes

70

Special

36 Temple Gaurd
Revered Gaurdian w/th Burning Blade of Chotec
Musician

631

Stegadon

235

Stegadon

235

Total

2948



What should I fill the amount that is left?

kaintxu
23-06-2010, 21:09
that list is illegal, you can only have up to 750 on commands options since its 25% of 3k

You are ussing 795

I would drop 1 steggy for salamanders, i haven't played yet but since they are skirmirshers they can march and shoot, and with no templates and infantry units coming more frequest and bigger they look like the nastiest unit our army book has, so i would not leave home without 2. Me myself will be using 4 or 6 at 3k games.


I can see you have made your units bigger. But the skirmishers need to be shrunk to accomodate for more saurus, temple guard and spear upgrades. Yuo need units of 40. This means (assuming your lesser slaan slots in one of the saurus units), you will need an extra 20 saurus (12 in one, 8 in the other with space for the slaan), and anouther 8 temple guard. Quick calculations;

8x16 for temple guard = 128pts
20x11 for saurus = 220pts

And spears are a must. even if you don't use them, the versitility afforded is invaluable. Thats anouther 80pts.

this means you have to drop 428pts. Take this out on the hunting packs (240), and 30 skinks (210). this gives you 22 additional points to play with. I suggest breaking your ancient steg into 2 normal stegadons. for this, drop some diciplines on the head slaan, and maybe 5 or 10 suarus. 2 diciplines (100pts), 10 saurus, and the sun standard should do it

what do you think
long story short, big blocks win battles.

Spears are no mandatory anymore, you only take 1 extra attack with the spear rank which at the end means 1 more wound average while hw/s can save you 1 on average plus more against big units, plus now if you get spears you HAVE TO use them, so they are not a must at all

Why do you need units of 40, thats your say, not everyone is going to be running horde units, meta game is not stablished anywhere don't go around like you knew it.

Pete_x
23-06-2010, 21:56
the 2nd slann isn't really worth 375 points anyway dump him for a backup skink priest.

Agnar the Howler
23-06-2010, 22:50
Actually, i'm not sure where he's getting some costs from, the first Slann should only be 400pts, and the second should only be 275pts...

Either way, his characters are legal, just incorrectly costed.

Mango33
23-06-2010, 23:16
My fault on the seriously messed up costs I posted for the Slann, math isn't my strongest subject.

Will alter.

This also means I have even more extra points. I should, should being the operative word, have 172 points left over. Any suggestions?

Mango33
24-06-2010, 13:45
Really no advice on what to fill the extra 172 points with?

Agnar the Howler
25-06-2010, 06:51
Your 40 Saurus should be 498pts, not 480, similarly your 36 Saurus should be 450pts. Your Temple Guard cost includes a Standard Bearer, but he isn't listed. Apart from that, everything else is fine points-wise, and i'd consider using any extra points to get some salaanders, they're really too good to leave out in 8th.

Vsurma
25-06-2010, 09:02
Why are both the slann protected with items or abilities when 1 is going into the temple guard? That slann doesn't need anything.

I would recommend rumination on both slanns, when 1 slann is getting a free dice and the other doesn't the spells start to look really expensive from the other lore.

Do you need all 6 spells from 1 mage? you could save 35pts and give 1 plaque of tepok for 5 spells with the other having 4. 9 spells overall.

Zaszz
25-06-2010, 17:05
Everyone is saying "big units are a must" but honestly they aren't they have advantages but you have to weigh them against the points. Basically with big units you can take more losses before you loose fighting rank. You can take more losses before you lose rank bonus. You have a better chance of being steadfast. You have a better chance of removing your enemies steadfast.

If you really look at it, steadfast will only be helping you if you lose combat, saurus don't loose many combats, so your mostly looking to remove your enemies steadfast. Personally I would rather just chew them up for 2-3 combats to get that result and save my self the points, which could be spent on things that remove some of their ranks before combat anyway, like salamanders.

I wouldn't run units larger then 25, with 25 they have to remove 6 models to even drop one rank, and this still has no effect on your damage output. You may be low I but your troops are tough enough to take it and dish our serious pain. Personally I would stick with just shield and hand weapon for more toughness to help you negate your lower I and to keep your cost low, you still get what 15 attacks to the front right? 2 for each front model and 1 supporting attack for 2nd rank.

Support these units with strong magic, monsters, and some ranged attacks and I think your looking at a solid force. Your based around tough reliable troops, some power house monster damage, and magic / salamanders / pipes to thin the enemy ranks.

I think that any unit that can be ranked up for the cheap (8 points or less max) should definetly consider buffing up to 30+ models as they are cheap enough for it to be efficient and generally crummy in combat so they will get their ranks chewed through quickly. Obviously their combat resolution will also probably be poor so they will likely get use out of being steadfast often.

mdauben
25-06-2010, 21:47
Everyone is saying "big units are a must" but honestly they aren't they have advantages but you have to weigh them against the points.
I am leaning in this direction, too, at least for more expensive infantry like Saurus. I just don't think we will be seeing everyone fielding large units of Saurus once the initial testing works out.

I think its cheap units like Skinks, Gobbos, Gnoblars, or maybe the weedier human troops that are going to be fielded in units of 30-40 or even more. These units will be able to take advantage of the new rules for steadfast or hordes at a cost that makes it worthwhile.

Agnar the Howler
25-06-2010, 23:53
Skinks don't make for good horde-y units though, they're too expensive and have bugger-all options apart from taking a 55pt model that strikes last, and can't be relied upon to hit with more than about 2 attacks. For 5pts each you get a WS2 T2 unit with a 6+/6+ in combat... A chaos marauder costs 4pts and is WS3 T3, but can get a 6+/6+ for an extra point, and a 5+/6+ for a further point. Skinks would need regular spell buffs, a BSB and multiple kroxigors to really do any damage, but when you add the cost of Krox into the skinks... 50 ranked skinks with 2 krox costs 360pts, 2 units like that sets you back 720pts...

Would you really be willing to spend that much on a bunch of WS2 T2 models who can't kill anything for toffee? Nobody cares about static res, because enough of your skinks would get killed to negate whatever res you managed to get, it just isn't worth it in the long run.

mdauben
26-06-2010, 00:02
Skinks don't make for good horde-y units though, they're too expensive and have bugger-all options apart from taking a 55pt model that strikes last, and can't be relied upon to hit with more than about 2 attacks.
True, but I find there is more to units than just their killing power.

While it does not look like Skinks will work well as wide "horde" units (without expensive support), I think they may well work as deep "steadfast" units. They are still not going to kill much, but they can tie up units preventing them from attacking smaller, but more offensive units, or pin enemy units in place so that your more killy units can attack them. Then of course their are going to be all the other big, cheap units that they may make effective counters to. They should also be good for tying up or even killing smaller units of missile troops or warmachines, both of who's killing potential drops dramatically in close combat.

Of course this is just speculation at this point, but I intend to try out my Skinks in a couple different ways. I'm hoping that in 8e they will again be good for more than just throw away skirmisher units. ;)

Agnar the Howler
26-06-2010, 00:23
They can't really pin much in place either, unlike a unit of marauders who are going to be hit and wounded on 4s by most other units, and get a 5-6+/5-6+ (ward depends on mark, if Tzeentch it's 5+), our skinks get hit and wounded by most things on 3s, and get a 6+/6+ at best, anything with strength 4 or more will be wounding us on 2s and we'll get a single 6+ parry ward. Tarpit units are meant to hold things and take few enough casualties to stay in the fight, since our skinks will be dropping like flies the enemy will be racking up a large combat res with little to fear from return attacks.

Their effectiveness against missile units and warmachines depends on them actually getting there, a unit that large isn't going to be let near anything like missile troops without being flank charged on their way through and pinned into position by a cheaper horde unit.

I'm going to have to use marauders again, since they're the only regular unit I have the points for, but 50 marauders with LA and Shields cost 300pts, 60pts less than 50 skinks + 2 Kroxigors, and a damn-sight more robust. If they manage to get into combat with your skinks, then you will lose the grind-fest and lose 360pts, or you'll be held in place by a cheaper unit, something that you want to do to them instead. The only way to keep our units cheap enough to act as tarpits is by taking away the kroxigors, but then they lose all hope of fighting back and evaporate when touched.

If you can get into combat with an elite unit, then good, you should be able to pin them for at least 2 turns, but nobody would let a large unit like that near one, and would counter it with their own cheap units.

Mango33
26-06-2010, 16:16
Thanks for catching my math mistakes Agnar

1) Although I like the idea of a unit of Hand Weapons I don't have any modelled with them. I think though that one unt with hand weapons and one with spears would work well don't you think?

2) The Slann in the Temple Gaurd has the Plaque to stop cannonballs, the Mystery so he can know all Life spells, the Cupped Hands to seriously screw up the opponents casters, and the Soul of Stone to make any miscasts my opponent makes hopefully worse. Its very expensive but Slann are always targeted first by the majority of warmachines.

3) if I have the points I could add more to the second Slann but then will run into trouble with the whole 25% maximum allowed for characters.

3) I am thinking of running my second Slann solo. He can only be hurt by magical attacks and will be used solely for the purpose of casting low level spells from either Light or Metal. Most likely Light though. He can also hide behind a stegadon and still have line of sight to all my units.

4) I could most likely reduce both units to 25 and then with the points saved add in another unit of 25 Saurus. How does that sound?

5) Salamanders are an excellent idea and burns up about 150 points out of that 172. Then add in whats left from the reduction in the size of the Saurus units and I still have some excellent options.

so now...

Lords

Slann Mage-Preist
Focus of Mystery
Soul of Stone
Divine Plaque of Protection
Cupped Hands of the Old Ones

400

Slann-Mage-Preist
Higher State of Consciousness

275

Troops

25 Saurus Warriors
Spears
Musician
Standard

318

27 Saurus Warriors
Spears
Musician
Standard

330


25 Saurus Warriors
Hand Weapons
Musician
Standard

275

10 Skink Skirmishers
Blowpipes

70

10 Skink Skirmishers
Blowpipes

70

Special

36 Temple Gaurd
Standard Bearer
Revered Gaurdian w/th Burning Blade of Chotec
Musician

631

Stegadon

235

Stegadon

235

Rare

2 Salamanders
2 Extra Handlers

160

Total

2995

Mango33
26-06-2010, 16:22
sorry ignore this post

thesheriff
26-06-2010, 19:32
yes, that what i'm talking about. Either lost of medium units or a couple of big units. Very good list, although, where is the secound slaan destined to be. Drop the jungle swarm for an extra saurus for a cosy 30 big unit for him (26+4).

but, much better

and nice to see some debate on biggest is best

thesheriff

Romulus68
26-06-2010, 19:34
What spell lore(s) are you leaning towards?

I have been eye-balling Lore of Light to help off set our low Init.

Mango33
26-06-2010, 22:25
Like your idea on dropping the swarm, didn't really like it anyway and extra saurus are always great!!

I have a couple concerns though about sticking my second slann in a saurus unit:

1) He can be targeted for challenges

2) he can if he miscasts take out a sizable chunk of the unit.

So I am thinking if he goes solo it would be safer.

As for Lores the uber preist would probably have Life (can get +2 miscast prevention, increase T of stuff like my stegadons and saurus etc.) and for my solo Slann Light (increase initiative and WS, healing of stuff like stegadons, etc.). Making Saurus T8 WS10 I10 beasts in combat is to good to pass up.

Mango33
30-06-2010, 00:01
Any advice on what magic lores I should use?

Vsurma
30-06-2010, 07:55
2 slanns but no rumination?!

I would definitely take it on your main caster. Drop your one trick pony of soul of stone and take rumination.

thesheriff
30-06-2010, 08:22
Miscasts are a chance you have to take with a high magic list. And he can't be targeted because he isn't in the front rank, it's not base contact any mote, IRS anyfifhting rank.
And with lores, fire on the second slaan, and metal on the second slaan. The base fire spell can cast on 3rd level will give you 3D6 S4 shots at the nearest unit. And metal will deal with armour very well.

Vsurma
30-06-2010, 09:16
A slann that is in any other unit than templeguard goes in the front rank, so not only does it allow the enemy to attack it (with many many models) it alos takes up the space of 4 saurus warriors.

That said its a fine place for the slann for the first turn or 2 when the unit is not in combat just for the LOS rolls.

Metal and fire seems like a decent combo, fire is SO cheap on a RUMINATION slann (hint)
Pretty much every spell can be cast with 1 dice.

Still, even using 1 dice, means your using 4 dice for fire, so you won't have many left to use on metal.