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View Full Version : The best IG ordinance/artillery peices against MEQs. Have your Say.



TheDireAvenger
23-06-2010, 18:06
In our environment most armies running around are ones in power armour with their 3+ saves. Which artillery units do you figure is the best against MEQs and their Rhinos/Land Raiders for imperial Guard?

I feel the Deathstrike and Basilisk with their unreliability and huge minimum range for the Basilisk come out as the bottom of the barrel.

I still don't know about the Colossus, I feel the choices below are much better. I don't understand why its so weak with only AP 3 and S6. Does anyone remember what barrage 1 do? Also no one being able to take cover saves is nice, but can anyone convince me that the Colossus is good?

The Manticore, Griffon, and Medusa definitely appear to be the best choice, but is the Griffon that useful against MEQs?

My conclusion is that probably the Medusa with the ability to get AP1 S10 shells to kill even land raiders give it a duel purpose as anti-TEQ and anti-MEQ. Another huge advantage is that it can be taken in squads unlike the Manticore which is only AP 4.

Anyone disagree, what do you think about the Colossus and do you feel the Medusa is overall the best against MEQs and their Rhinos/Land Raiders.

Hunger
23-06-2010, 18:14
I voted for the Deathstrike. They're great against everything, as long as they hit :D

EmperorEternalXIX
23-06-2010, 18:15
You don't have one that ISN'T good against MEQs.

The one that hurts the worst, however, is the 5-plasma one.

GrogDaTyrant
23-06-2010, 18:16
Basilisks can fire directly.

tuebor
23-06-2010, 18:17
In our environment most armies running around are ones in power armour with their 4+ saves.

Power armour gives a 3+ save.


I feel the Deathstrike and Basilisk with their unreliability and huge minimum range for the Basilisk come out as the bottom of the barrel.

Agreed, the Deathstrike is ok for one-off fun games, but it's really not a competitive option.


I still don't know about the Colossus, I feel the choices below are much better. I don't understand why its so weak with only AP 3 and S6.

It wounds Marines on a 2+, ignores their armour and ignores cover. What's not to like?


The Manticore, Griffon, and Medusa definitely appear to be the best choice, but is the Griffon that useful against MEQs?

A battery of 3 Griffons is going to force quite a few saves, even on an MEQ unit at a rather minimal cost.


My conclusion is that probably the Medusa with the ability to get AP1 S10 shells to kill even land raiders give it a duel purpose as anti-TEQ and anti-MEQ. Another huge advantage is that it can be taken in squads unlike the Manticore which is only AP 4.

Anyone disagree, what do you think about the Colossus and do you feel the Medusa is overall the best against MEQs and their Rhinos/Land Raiders.

I prefer the Manticore for anti-tank work because you can potentially throw out 3 of those nasty S10 blasts. Sure, they're only AP4 but since opposing infantry seems to get cover saves so often I don't view it as that big a deal.

Also, I really wouldn't call the squadron feature of Medusas a huge advantage. Every tank in the squadron has to fire at the same target, which is rarely worth it.

TheDireAvenger
23-06-2010, 18:20
The one that hurts the worst, however, is the 5-plasma one.

What 5 plasma one?

Also yes, the Basilisk can fire directly, but you really don't want it in LOS of your enemy and overall its generally agreed the Basilisk is no longer as good as its competitors like the Griffon, Medusa, Manticore, and even a Colossus. I'd take a Colossus before a Basilisk though, I think the Medusa and Manticore are probably still better than a Colossus because they can actually take out tanks with their S10 while Colossus can't do anything to a Rhino and be lucky to glance a Rhino.

Lord Inquisitor
23-06-2010, 18:20
Um, the "weak" Colossus with only S6, AP3 and ignores cover, is your best bet against MEQ. Since it kills them on a 2+ with no saves.

Now, many of the other artillery pieces may be better overall - the griffon is cheaper, the basilisk can fire directly, the manticore is the best against vehicles and hordes and the deathstrike is just silly fun, but if you want dead MEQs, particularly in cover, the Colossus is the best bet.

TheDireAvenger
23-06-2010, 18:28
Um, the "weak" Colossus with only S6, AP3 and ignores cover, is your best bet against MEQ. Since it kills them on a 2+ with no saves.

Now, many of the other artillery pieces may be better overall - the griffon is cheaper, the basilisk can fire directly, the manticore is the best against vehicles and hordes and the deathstrike is just silly fun, but if you want dead MEQs, particularly in cover, the Colossus is the best bet.

But all those Marines are not gonna be in the open. They'll be in Rhinos and Land Raiders where the Colossus can't touch them. :cries: Then they'll try to assault and you can't fire into Close Combat at your own units.

tuebor
23-06-2010, 18:28
What 5 plasma one?

Also yes, the Basilisk can fire directly, but you really don't want it in LOS of your enemy and overall its generally agreed the Basilisk is no longer as good as its competitors like the Griffon, Medusa, Manticore, and even a Colossus. I'd take a Colossus before a Basilisk though, I think the Medusa and Manticore are probably still better than a Colossus because they can actually take out tanks with their S10 while Colossus can't do anything to a Rhino and be lucky to glance a Rhino.

The 5 plasma tank he's talking about is a Leman Russ Executioner with Plasma Cannon sponsons.

The different artillery pieces are good for different things, none of them excel at everything.

The best use I've found for the Colossus is killing squads after I've destroyed their Rhinos and they're taking cover in the wreckage. A Medusa and a Colossus working like this is a great one-two punch that can really take the heart out of a mechanized advance.

Fithos
23-06-2010, 18:30
Agreed, I swear by my Colossus's. If you need power armor models to die they are the way to go. Really if you need anything to die because anything that doesn't have power armor is usually taking cover saves most of the game... and it wounds most things on a 2.

Also, I like the basilisk. I know it's not as good as other pieces, but it is a good all a rounder. The only time I would rather have a Medusa is if I am fighting either Terminators or the Monolith. And then I usually have a Demolisher for the job.

Lord Inquisitor
23-06-2010, 18:33
But all those Marines are not gonna be in the open. They'll be in Rhinos and Land Raiders where the Colossus can't touch them. :cries: Then they'll try to assault and you can't fire into Close Combat at your own units.

The colossus also has a minimum range of 24".

You play guard. You open the transports with your heavy weapon teams or vets with meltas or vendettas and then you nuke the bunched up troops cowering in the crater with the colossus.

Besides, you asked what was the best artillery against MEQ. That's not quite the same thing as asking what the best artillery to take against a mech Space Marine army. The colossus kills MEQs, the manticore is the best against bunched-up transports.

GrogDaTyrant
23-06-2010, 18:34
But all those Marines are not gonna be in the open. They'll be in Rhinos and Land Raiders where the Colossus can't touch them. :cries: Then they'll try to assault and you can't fire into Close Combat at your own units.

So don't focus on just one type of vehicle. Grab some Hydras, or some Russ, or even a Manticore or Medusa as well.

Also it should be noted that a viable tactic against units rushing your IG army, is to throw a 10-man speed-bump in their way which will almost certainly break and flee (if it even survives). This leaves the opponent's squad open to being shot at during your next turn.

TheDireAvenger
23-06-2010, 19:03
1 Question.

How would the Colossus do against CSM Obilterators with their T4 and 2+ saves. Would it still wound on 2+? Also with their 240" its indirect fire so they don't need direct LOS right?

I think I'm getting sold on the Colossus idea. How do people run their Colossuses? 2 squads of 2 each sounds nice.

Lord Inquisitor
23-06-2010, 19:07
1 Question.

How would the Colossus do against CSM Obilterators with their T4 and 2+ saves. Would it still wound on 2+? Also with their 240" its indirect fire so they don't need direct LOS right?
Useless. It does wound them on a 2+ but they'll get their 2+ armour (as it is only AP3) and it isn't high enough strength to instant-kill them. Obliterators also often teleport into the minimum range.

Use Lascannon to kill obliterators, a demolisher or an executioner. The same applies to Terminators.

One thing to bear in mind about the Colossus. It's so good at killing MEQs that a marine or chaos marine player will probably dedicate disproportionate amount of effort into killing it before it wipes their forces off the board. So it tends to die early on. You can use it as a distraction, but expect it to die.

Vaktathi
23-06-2010, 19:11
Against MEQ's as in MEQ infantry?

Collossus, wounds on 2's, ignores armor saves, and allows no cover saves. TL;DR, MEQ infantry die.


The Griffon is a solid as well, cheap enough to buy multiples, wounds on 2's with rerolls to hit, allowing one to land shots with great accuracy forcing lots of saves, and the AP matters less if hitting stuff in cover.

Against MEQ *armies*?

Probably the Manticore. Wounds on 2's, has enough shots to force large numbers of armor saves, and works very well against tanks as well.

The Medusa is also a great unit, it's got AP1/2, huge strength, and works amazingly well against vehicles as well. That said, it needs LoS, meaning it can be shot back at, making it vulnerable.

The basilisk's minimum range just makes it too situational, that 36" is usually about where you want to hit something half the time.

The Deathstrike is just too variable, random, prone to potentially whiff, and easy to get rid of to be viable.

Lord Inquisitor
23-06-2010, 19:17
The basilisk's minimum range just makes it too situational, that 36" is usually about where you want to hit something half the time.
Surely then you switch to direct-fire mode and use it as a poor man's medusa?

Vaktathi
23-06-2010, 19:19
Surely then you switch to direct-fire mode and use it as a poor man's medusa?

In which case it suffers from the same problems as the medusa though, becoming very vulnerable to counterfire, without the same utility.

Lord Inquisitor
23-06-2010, 19:23
In which case it suffers from the same problems as the medusa though, becoming very vulnerable to counterfire, without the same utility.
But the ability to do both is certainly nice. Sit at the back and lob indirect fire, then move and fire when the enemy closes, not too shabby.

Still, I don't think I've seen a Basilisk on the table since the 5e Guard book, but I think that's because there are specialists that do the job better and the price tag is just slightly too high...

Vaktathi
23-06-2010, 19:28
It's not terrible, but it's rather mediocre. It's a jack of all trades that's not particularly astounding at anything in particular, primarily that minimum 36" is what hurts it. Were it only 24" it would be seen more, that extra 12" means a lot, but it really just got copy-pasted from the last book without really any changes.

DaSpaceAsians
23-06-2010, 19:52
I only use Basilisks but mine do their jobs as psycological warfare and kill loads upon loads of MEQ's. Of course, it's mainly due to preference more then anything

Erwos
23-06-2010, 19:56
Direct-fire-only artillery is quite bizarre, and I'm not sure which genius at GW thought it was a good idea. If I'm going to direct-fire, I'm going to be doing it with a tank.

TheDireAvenger
23-06-2010, 20:20
If the Basilisk didn't have the direct fire ability it would be really terrible and border-line useless due to its massive minimum range of 36"

I'm thinking about the Medusa/Colossus combo. That's a lot of points to devote so who has experience with it? I'm guessing a combination of 2 - 3 Medusas and 2 Colossus.

Does anyone take Bastion Breaching Shells for their Medusas and are they worth trading it for the smaller blast template? I feel the AP 2 isn't that bad and sticking to the pie plate would result in more kills since it'll still be S 10. Your thoughts? Also is the 36" really limiting or is the 48" really crucial?

tuebor
23-06-2010, 20:26
Does anyone take Bastion Breaching Shells for their Medusas and are they worth trading it for the smaller blast template? I feel the AP 2 isn't that bad and sticking to the pie plate would result in more kills since it'll still be S 10. Your thoughts? Also is the 36" really limiting or is the 48" really crucial?

The question as to what to take really depends on what you need it to do. When I use Medusas their job is to kill heavier (AV13+) armour so I take the bastion breacher shells. When I run platoons I find that the rest of my list has enough anti-infantry and anti-light armour so I can afford to do this.

When I run my fully mechanized lists I tend to use my artillery for anti-infantry because I have lots of anti-armour in my infantry, I even have effectively long ranged anti-armour in Valkyries with suicide melta CCS or veteran squads.

Ariobarzanes
23-06-2010, 20:37
IMHO, its sinergy (your conscious use of shots and mobility) that kills Space marines ARMIES and a lot of armour save rolls, is what kills spaces marines so, you name it, massive mortar barrages, roaring colossus, angry basilisks, petrifying medusas or howling griffons you have to make them work.

besides, the best weapon you can have is the one you have.

EmperorEternalXIX
24-06-2010, 02:32
What 5 plasma one?

Also yes, the Basilisk can fire directly, but you really don't want it in LOS of your enemy and overall its generally agreed the Basilisk is no longer as good as its competitors like the Griffon, Medusa, Manticore, and even a Colossus. I'd take a Colossus before a Basilisk though, I think the Medusa and Manticore are probably still better than a Colossus because they can actually take out tanks with their S10 while Colossus can't do anything to a Rhino and be lucky to glance a Rhino.
Ah, misread the topic.

I was referring to the Leman Russ "Plasmacutioner."

Solar_Eclipse
24-06-2010, 03:43
I was referring to the Leman Russ "Plasmacutioner."

Not a very good use of the points it costs, though. 5 Plasma cannons is good, thats fine. But the 230 points it costs for that isnt really worth it

mulkers
24-06-2010, 04:29
I vote for Demolisher, as all of those Chimera based vehicles can be glanced to death by bolters or cc, where as a demlosher can move and shoot the demo cannon, and has rear armour 11.

Heck, even it top and side armour is better than any of the chimera variants, let alone the front, and the weapons loadout too.

Really when are you going to need 120-960" of range on a 6'x4'?

Solar_Eclipse
24-06-2010, 06:31
Really when are you going to need 120-960" of range on a 6'x4'?

Almost never, but its the 36"-72" the Demolisher cannon doesnt have that your going to miss, take it from me.

Colossus is great against MEQ's since it will annihilate squads of 3+ save infantry better than anything, use it against the Quick enemy units like Assault Marines, Bikes, etc.

Problem is that Their Teleporters/Deep Strikes will probably gun for the colossus if they can, but in the time you have, you can proabably do enough damage.

If you want a Generalist, Manticore would be my choice. The Manticore is my mainstay and it never disappoints.

kardar233
24-06-2010, 06:46
I like the Colossus best.

Bloodknight
24-06-2010, 08:53
A battery of 3 Griffons is going to force quite a few saves, even on an MEQ unit at a rather minimal cost.

Yep. I usually play batteries of 2. They're not much more expensive than a single Basilisk and unlike a shot from a single Basilisk the Griffon battery usually causes lots more hits (it pretty often hits with both blasts on the same spot) and forces enough saves that the important guys all have to take at least one.

Example:

Basilisk hits a 10 man Marine squad in area terrain cover. It hits 8 models and causes 7 wounds. 7 boltgun-armed redshirts take their 4+ save, 3-4 die. Flamer guy, Sergeant and Missile Launcher live in any case. The squad might or might not take a pinning test against LD8, depending on if the Bassie had to fire directly.

Now the same shot with 2 Griffons: thanks to accurate bombardment it's pretty likely that the Griffons hit the same spot twice. The Griffons cause 16 hits, wound 14 times. All special guys take one save, the redshirts take 11 saves. 4-5 Marines die. Some of them might be the special ones. The squad takes a pinning test against LD8.

The Griffon battery is very useful vs most forms of opponents. It's still Ordnance and hits pretty well, so it can squash transports (75% chance of causing damage on a hit Chimera, Trukk or Raider; about 50% against a Rhino, Ravager, Devilfish, Predator or Vindicator) and it causes horrendous amounts of wounds vs most enemy units.
As an anecdote I once nearly wiped an entire Ork mob from the board in one salvo with 3 Griffons (1st turn), I think they caused some ridiculous number of hits, killed over 25 of the Orks and pinned the rest.

Bunnahabhain
24-06-2010, 08:59
As by my reading of the original post, they were asking about both MEQs and their transports, I voted for the manticore, for obvious reasons.

I too really like Griffons. They just work, as Bloodknight says.

My personal best with them is 35 wounds on one mob from one squadron. Green Tide?-BOOM-SPLAT- Green slime on scenery....

b4z
24-06-2010, 10:37
MEQ Armies - Manticore [str10 mutiple blasts infantry and/or vehicles], Medusa [str10 ap2 Terminators/Marines and/or vehicles]

MEQ Infantry - Colossus [ap3 no cover], Griffon [accurate bombardment], Manticore [multiple blasts]

Big Fail - Basilisk, Deathstrike

fluffstalker
24-06-2010, 10:58
I love the manticore and medusa, almost never can justify the collusus. No MEQ player these days is going to be footslogging, everything is gonna be in transports. Manticores and dusas give me options to kill anything from LRs to termie squads to tac marines. If I know im facing a rhino rush style army (pretty rare but it does happen), then hydras would be good as well for the volume of fire. Now every so often youll get a mission where some silly dev squad or something is in cover hard covering an objective, and youll wish you had a coll to dig em out, but its rarely worth it.

TheDireAvenger
24-06-2010, 16:00
I think the idea is to pop the transports with melta-veterans in Chimeras, lascannons, and Hydra-Flak tanks for Rhinos and then land the Colossus pie-plate on them for laughs. lawls.

The Medusa with Bastion Breaching shells and Colossus combo also is an option but that's a LOT of points for that combo.

Bloodknight
24-06-2010, 18:08
The Colossus has the massive disadvantage of its minimum range coupled with the fact that it can't fire directly. On turn 2, most units of a Space Marine army will have closed the gap to below 24", and those that haven't probably still sit in a transport.

Brugge
24-06-2010, 19:36
Leman Russ Demolisher, hands down. Especially with plasma sponsons.

Lord Inquisitor
24-06-2010, 19:38
The Colossus has the massive disadvantage of its minimum range coupled with the fact that it can't fire directly. On turn 2, most units of a Space Marine army will have closed the gap to below 24", and those that haven't probably still sit in a transport.

Bah, stick it over in a corner and either the SM player has to divert forces to deal with it or otherwise it'll rain death down.

Exactly as Dire says, pop the transport and then wipe out the bunched-up squad with a hit from a Colossus - I've had it done to me and the damn thing took out a squad a turn (my opponent's unholy luck with scatter dice may have had something to do with this).

wazatdingder
24-06-2010, 19:46
My bad, first thing I think when I see MEQ is Mech, so I voted Manticore. I change my vote to Colossus/Bombard.

Nezalhualixtlan
24-06-2010, 19:58
I like the Colossus, wounding MEQs on 2+ and denying everything but invulnerable saves... The only thing is it's min range... but still.

mrinnella
25-06-2010, 03:42
I don't know, I find that a standard Leman Russ with S8 AP3 works just fine against MEQ. It is only a little more expensive than the ordnance batteries (not counting the Griffon) but in exchange you get better armor plus you can move and shoot.