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View Full Version : Wood Elves in 8th Edition, will the be playable?



WildAnimal
23-06-2010, 22:22
Im not played Warhammer since 6th edition I think.

How will Wood Elves be in 8th edition?

Sygerrik
23-06-2010, 22:41
Being able to shoot in two ranks is great. The limitations on Skirmisher movement is not.

Being able to test on unmodified leadership with enough ranks is good for elves (who have high Ld) but WE tend not to have lots of ranks anyways

The changes to fast cav are good. The difficulty in canceling rank bonuses with small units is bad.

Thunderstomp for Treemen is good. Access to the broke-ass Lores of Life and (to a lesser extent) Beasts are good.

Overall, I think that Wood Elves suffer a bit from having an old army book and simply not hitting hard enough-- they certainly won't be able to run with tons of Dryad blobs anymore. Too early to see how the metagame shakes out; that's what will really determine whether they benefit or suffer from 8E.

GodlessM
23-06-2010, 22:45
Wood Elves suffer greatly and will likely be bottom of the food chain for awhile. The majority of their strengths have been taken away. Whatever people may sayabout shooting in two ranks, the only difference it makes is giving you more room to deploy, that's all, so it's not all that impressive.

Yiyio
23-06-2010, 22:45
Honestly, they are really ****ed.

I say this as a long time Wood Elves player. I don't know how are we going to take down big units with lots of ranks...plus our book doesn't look like it's going to be redone soon.

The only good thing is that now we can deploy units of 10 archers in 2 ranks, shoot at short distance, fall back, and repeat.

WildAnimal
23-06-2010, 22:46
Why cant they have tons of Dryad blobs anymore?

Razhem
23-06-2010, 22:49
Why cant they have tons of Dryad blobs anymore?

I don't know the exact details, but the skirmish rule has been castrated beyond belief and any melee units that skirmish are horrible pieces of crap unless they literally do bloodbaths.

WildAnimal
23-06-2010, 23:00
Seems that im NOT playing the new version after all then.....

Guess Britonnia gets robber also, when infantry are so scary now.

GodlessM
23-06-2010, 23:04
So you are going to refuse to play 8th over one rule? Overreact much?

Razhem
23-06-2010, 23:13
So you are going to refuse to play 8th over one rule? Overreact much?

When half your army is based on that rule, I would dare say it is a solid argument to not play.

Anyway, here is the full skirmisher rules from the rumour thread that Grimstonefire was nice enough to do for all of us. That way you can judge if it's a no biggie or a crotch destroyer.

Skirmishers

* Skirmishers are now a fixed formation, and must be deployed with a 1/2 inch gap between each and every model.

X = Model
O = 1" Gap between

X O X O X O X O X
O O O O O O O O O
X O X O X O X O X

Skirmishers still rank up in combat, but as they do not get a rank bonus they cannot negate enemy rank bonuses. As long as they are not charging, Skirmishers can reform on the move as often as they wish and also march and shoot.
* Charging Skirmishers, you line up to them, not them to you.
* Skirmishers are NOT stubborn in a forest. I think this is Wood Elves only.
* Skirmishers do not have 360 degree Line of sight.

WildAnimal
23-06-2010, 23:16
Im a wood elf player, so yes half or more of my army are Skirmish.
I don't mind having a weak list really, but ifs its so weak you really can't even come close to a decent fight, why then play?

Rhamag
23-06-2010, 23:18
Wood Elves will have to change their core tactics, certainly, but I don't think they are completely useless in 8th Ed.

Skirmishers have fixed facings now, and have lost 360 deg charges, but they become steadfast in woods, and everyone else loses it. Put some dryads or wardancers into woods or indeed most other terrain and (with an average charge of 12") can lurk there until needed for a flank or rear charge. Supporting attacks don't happen on these facings, and dryads & wardancers have above average Init, so can do a bunch of wounds with few attacks coming back. It may take a turn or two to strip the ranks away from blocks with the kills, but thats just holding an enemy up until the Tree Kin or Treeman turn up and Stomp everyone.

Glade riders have proven useful in the games I've played so far. Vanguard them forwards, shoot, flee charges, rally, reform, move and shoot again. Repeat until your opponent screams in frustration. With anything getting wounded on 6s, longbows make for good anti-warmachine fire. All it needs are 3 6's and the cannon/bolt-thrower/etc. is suddenly crewless.

That's just two examples, and I'm sure someone will be along shortly to contradict me, but the point I'm trying to make is that not all is lost for the Asrai, it just needs some thought. ;)

Templar47
23-06-2010, 23:32
I agree Rhamag. Although they suffer a bit from the skirmishing rule, they can still be effective army, all they have to do is change there tactics a bit. And I suspect that more Wood Elf players will be taking more Glade Guard units since they can shoot in 2 ranks, plus they are still the only archers who can move and fire. A friend of mine has 4x units of 12x in his army right now, and so far he has done pretty well for him, plus its looks pretty cool on the battle field :D.

Rhamag
23-06-2010, 23:48
I've tried 3 units of 21 (7x3) with reasonable success. If fleeing a charge isn't an option, they've got 14 stand and fire shots hitting on 4s at Str4. Not too shabby. Keep them still and they get 18 shots. Should they ever get charged, they still get 14 attacks at WS 4 and Init 5. Not great, but better than most missile troops.

Another winner so far has been Tree Kin, and my level 4 with Lore of Life. The number 6 spell (strength test or die) is very useful against the big blocks coming across the board.

I REALLY want to get a treeman or two into the list (conversion from plastic trees taking a while...) as I think they got a boost from the new rules. If I take Beast instead of Life, then the Treeman Ancient can potentially be boosted up to Tgh 9 or Str 9 & Att 9, all at +1 to cast as he's a monster.

Amnar
24-06-2010, 00:46
It'll be similar to my current dilemma, though not nearly as extreme. I play DE, and with elves having zero survivability, I'll be switching over to a monster mash, magic, shooty army. That said, my troops can still kill stuff in combat, so it's not really a fair comparison, but I can see a shooty, magic heavy, monster mash WE list doing ok. You guys can take a forest dragon right?

WarmbloodedLizard
24-06-2010, 02:06
wood elves will still be playable. but they won't be was diverse anymore.

new cornerstones:
-Spellweaver
-Calaingor caddy
-lots of Glade Guard
-lots of Treekin
-Treeman

support:
-waywatchers
-some Glade Riders
-some dryads

Wild Riders and Wardancers take quite the big hit.

Smithpod68
24-06-2010, 03:02
I think the scenarios will be important for the WE's. Instead of slugging it out,we will have to use finesse. Plus who knows what the PDF/Errata will do as well.

Voss
24-06-2010, 03:35
wood elves will still be playable. but they won't be was diverse anymore.

new cornerstones:
-Spellweaver
-Calaingor caddy
-lots of Glade Guard
-lots of Treekin
-Treeman

support:
-waywatchers
-some Glade Riders
-some dryads

Wild Riders and Wardancers take quite the big hit.

Actually, I think they'll be more diverse now. I don't think I've ever seen a 'wood elf' army with more than a handful of elves in it. Its always been the swarms of dryads backed up by treemen with maybe wardancers and some cav, led by wizards. It will be interesting to see people take elves again, and bring in a combination force that makes up for the strengths and weaknesses of other units in the army.

Petey
24-06-2010, 06:13
When half your army is based on that rule, I would dare say it is a solid argument to not play.

Anyway, here is the full skirmisher rules from the rumour thread that Grimstonefire was nice enough to do for all of us. That way you can judge if it's a no biggie or a crotch destroyer.

Skirmishers

* Skirmishers are now a fixed formation, and must be deployed with a 1/2 inch gap between each and every model.

X = Model
O = 1" Gap between

X O X O X O X O X
O O O O O O O O O
X O X O X O X O X

Skirmishers still rank up in combat, but as they do not get a rank bonus they cannot negate enemy rank bonuses. As long as they are not charging, Skirmishers can reform on the move as often as they wish and also march and shoot.
* Charging Skirmishers, you line up to them, not them to you.
* Skirmishers are NOT stubborn in a forest. I think this is Wood Elves only.
* Skirmishers do not have 360 degree Line of sight.

I have the book. I can even quote pages for you if ;you like. Yes skirmishers line up like that. Yes they can move like fast cav. Yes you can march and shoot. All chargers line up to the target, not just skirmishers. All skirmishers are stubborn in a forest. Skirmishers do not have 360 LOS, but that won't matter. Also, just so you know, Charging through woods with skirmishers doesn't reduce move or cause a difficult terrain check, not that those would matter as all your models are forest striders now and wouldnt have those penalties even in rank and file formation.

As to the OP's post. 2ranks shooting is actually really useful. Additionally, bows shoot in even more ranks than that (it's unusual). The WE army will need to diversify and play differently than last edition (you ll finally find WE spearblocks make it to the table). It can really work as an army on the table, I just saw that this past weekend.

Sparowl
24-06-2010, 06:33
Watched a game where our local WE player had 40 Eternal Guard in one block, and 6 treekin in one unit. Seemed to work out well, since he won.

Life magic helped once again. +4T on Eternal Guard is mean.

ghostline
24-06-2010, 06:52
The only really bad thing about WE is that Wild Riders are too expensive and fragile for what they will do.

Halelel
24-06-2010, 08:12
I think most of the Wood Elf angst is that the majority of armies that most Wood Elf players actively use are going to be tough to play with. While certainly competitive builds can be made with blocks of treekin and eternal guard units, many Wood Elf players won't have these units unless they are major collectors as they didn't see much action before 8th. Most 7th armies centered around skirmishing units and now they will be among the worst units to take in 8th.

I only have a small Wood Elf army that I used for 1k skirmishes, but it consisted of the obligatory dryad units, wardancers, and wild riders. All of which are looking to be seldom used at the moment (baring any errata that may be forthcoming)

Comrade Crash
24-06-2010, 13:13
I guess I picked the wrong army to start in time for 8th edition. :D

And I've just finshed paint up 2 units of wardancers and Wild riders, go figure:rolleyes:

Although I've yet to play any games so its hard to really judge properly from theory only, but to be honest, I think that the new skirmishing formation rule is only there to sell us some shiny new skirmisher movment tray's that GW will no doubt be releasing in the next few weeks:rolleyes:. Sorry but GW ARE that cynical. Watch out WH40K players for your next edition! ;)

I only play friendly games, so I doubt that the skirmishing formation will even make it to my table, just because it is going to be a fidly pain in the backside. I will have see about the rest of their rule changes.

mdauben
24-06-2010, 15:16
Most 7th armies centered around skirmishing units and now they will be among the worst units to take in 8th.
Which is a shame, as I always saw that as being a defining feature of WE, which made them different from every other RnF army. If we now have to build our lists around the same RnF infantry blocks that everyone is using, it detracts from the previous appeal of the army. And before someone criticizes me for not wanting to change, change if fine as long as it does not destroy the core concept/appeal of the army, which IMO nerfing skirmishers does to the WE.


(baring any errata that may be forthcoming)
Well, unless we do see some substantive errata, I'll probably be focusing on my other WFB armies for now. Not saying I'll give up on my Woodies, but I'll probably at least put them on hold until I start hearing more feedback on how the Woodies end up working in 8e in real games.

Galatan
24-06-2010, 15:20
i think wood elves will be pretty much ok, but will really suffer in the hands of a poor general. I think the winnig wood elf army will look something like 2 or 3 units of glade guard (between the 14 and 21 men), 2 or more units of treekin, at least one treeman and fill up the rest with waywatchers and glade riders for against arti. In the past wood elves could get away with minimal glade guard and stock up on the super hard hitting combat units (wardancers, dryads etc), but now it will be much more like shooting the enemy to hell and then charging home with the monsters.

Sadly this does mean that protecting your treekin and treemen is top priority as they are the only ones who can make a real difference in combat. Luckily wood elves are good arti hunters.

Balerion
24-06-2010, 16:19
I think you guys are overrating Glade Guard. They're going to struggle mightily to hurt the things that can bum-rush them and wipe them out, like cavalry, and they're going to have a hard time chipping down the large units of weaker troops that will become popular.

The reason people used Dryads more often than GG wasn't only due to the fact that GG took up a lot of deployment room. It was also because GG can't control a battlefield, and are really just support units.

Anyway, I'm hoping there will be a direct relationship between how badly this armybook is nerfed and how quickly it is redone.

Dyrnwyn
24-06-2010, 16:39
Anyway, I'm hoping there will be a direct relationship between how badly this armybook is nerfed and how quickly it is redone.

Judging from the attention GW has given Necrons since 5th ed 40k came out and broke that army(i.e. zero), I expect we'll be screwed for a couple years.

I play mono-Forest Spirits. Skirmishers being able to march and shoot means nothing to me, as Dryads have no missile weapons. With Dryads being forced into that ridiculous formation, I'm certainly not going to be able to fit them into my free forest, so I guess I just have to hope the board has another on it. Luckily I happen to have 6 Treekin, but my Wild Riders are pretty much hosed.

Anyone who has the rulebook - do forests still slow or stop units? Do they block LOS? I heard they no longer do, which would seriously nerf Treesinging.

mdauben
24-06-2010, 17:37
Anyone who has the rulebook - do forests still slow or stop units? Do they block LOS? I heard they no longer do, which would seriously nerf Treesinging.
I don't have the book yet, either, but if TLOS in WFB works the same as TLOS in 40K, then no forests do not block LOS, only the individual trees do so. In other worlds, if you can draw a line between two trees, LOS is not blocked no matter how deep the forest is. You do get cover modifiers in 40K for shooting through area terrain, but it does not totally protect you from fire, like it used to. Only solid terrain like walls, hills, etc does that now.

Dyrnwyn
24-06-2010, 17:44
I don't have the book yet, either, but if TLOS in WFB works the same as TLOS in 40K, then no forests do not block LOS, only the individual trees do so. In other worlds, if you can draw a line between two trees, LOS is not blocked no matter how deep the forest is. You do get cover modifiers in 40K for shooting through area terrain, but it does not totally protect you from fire, like it used to. Only solid terrain like walls, hills, etc does that now.

If Fantasy is really using TLOS, It's time for me to toss my easy to store felt forest and build a bamboo thicket you can't see through.

Balerion
24-06-2010, 17:48
Anyone who has the rulebook - do forests still slow or stop units? Do they block LOS? I heard they no longer do, which would seriously nerf Treesinging.
I believe your fears are true. And yeah, it really sucks for treesinging.

I was never big on treesurfing, but it seems to be the only major function left for that spell.

mdauben
24-06-2010, 18:52
If Fantasy is really using TLOS, It's time for me to toss my easy to store felt forest and build a bamboo thicket you can't see through.
YEah, I see this as one of the big functional flaws of TLOS. In the past you could use a piece of felt or cardboard to define the size and shape of the woods, and just add a couple of trees to it for looks. That made it easy to place units "in" the forest, as even monstrous creatures or vehicles could fit by just moving the trees around as the actual placement of the trees didn't matter.

Now in order to actually block LOS, a forest needs to be so dense that it becomes impossible to even place infantry units in woods, let alone monsters, infantry or vehicles like chariots or carts.

decker_cky
24-06-2010, 18:59
Treesinging will still be good, but more for the direct damage. 8th has more terrain, and units don't avoid forests as much as they once did.

Dyrnwyn
24-06-2010, 19:01
Now in order to actually block LOS, a forest needs to be so dense that it becomes impossible to even place infantry units in woods, let alone monsters, infantry or vehicles like chariots or carts.

Well, if I make my forest extend up 12cm in height, I can create a moving duck-blind for my Treeman... but not much else. the rules for the free forest govern diameter, not height. I preferred using the forest to screen my Dryads from missile fire and impede enemy movement - looks like a moving duckblind is going to be all it's used for now.

Nocculum
24-06-2010, 19:05
I think people are too caught up in Pre-8th Paranoia to see the glory of the Wood Elves for the trees, so to speak.

By all means, the skirmishing move somewhat hampers the army, but as has been said, very few of the skirmishing units in the list have missile weapons, so it's not a big deal.

What we lose:

Ermm...

What we gain:

+1cr in Woods

The combat effectiveness of a Wardancer unit is not, in anyway at all, hampered by 8th.

If you charge the front of a unit of Chaos Warriors maybe. But that is the same now, if you do it, you deserve to die.

The only issue wood elves will have is the stubborn when more ranks appear rule, as this will make it more difficult to jettison a load into a unit and steamroll.

The Glade Guard come into play here, as does the magic. Wood Elf shooting will not have to focus on ranks tripping to ensure that when a Wardancer unit hits, it can flay the required models to remove stubborn.

This is more careful playing, and not a 'nerf.'

We still have Alter Kindred characters to hunt down cavalry and monsters and warmachines and chariots, so the complaint that step-up leaves our characters vulnerable is a fallacy, pathetic, and whining. (We also have access to hard wards and better protective items from the common list to boot).

Wild Riders, the best fast cavalry in the game now causes +3cr on the charge without a magic banner, can start 12" into no man's land, move freely through forests and ignore the movement and negative CR penalty other cavalry gets when in woods, and comes in at 155-160 for a unit of 5 with command. BARGAIN.

With the Lore of Life revamped as it is, spellsingers take Loren, Weaver takes Life, we can buff combat units to effectiveness and bolster our unit with support magic where needed.

All I see in the Wood Elf army is a huge potential to refine tactics, enhance synergy and get the army working as a cohesive unit and not as a hammerblow or anvil one trick pony.

Some of you might have to learn to play, heaven forbid.

Chill out, paint your Dryads, and let's keep those humans out of OUR trees!

Galatan
24-06-2010, 19:22
^ Reminds me of a saying at my uni: Think in solutions, not problems :) .

innerwolf
24-06-2010, 19:44
I think people are too caught up in Pre-8th Paranoia to see the glory of the Wood Elves for the trees, so to speak.

By all means, the skirmishing move somewhat hampers the army, but as has been said, very few of the skirmishing units in the list have missile weapons, so it's not a big deal. It's the other way around. Because they don't have missile weapons they lose a lot and gain nothing( marching and shooting)

What we lose:

Ermm... I can help you here. Useful combat troops.

What we gain:

+1cr in Woods

The combat effectiveness of a Wardancer unit is not, in anyway at all, hampered by 8th. Step up=attacks coming back at you unless you kill the whole unit=dead Wardancers by the buckets

If you charge the front of a unit of Chaos Warriors maybe. But that is the same now, if you do it, you deserve to die.

The only issue wood elves will have is the stubborn when more ranks appear rule, as this will make it more difficult to jettison a load into a unit and steamroll.

The Glade Guard come into play here, as does the magic. Wood Elf shooting will not have to focus on ranks tripping to ensure that when a Wardancer unit hits, it can flay the required models to remove stubborn.

This is more careful playing, and not a 'nerf.'

We still have Alter Kindred characters to hunt down cavalry and monsters and warmachines and chariots, so the complaint that step-up leaves our characters vulnerable is a fallacy, pathetic, and whining. (We also have access to hard wards and better protective items from the common list to boot). What weapon makes the Alter as useful as it is? Great weapon. Will he get to attack before getting massacred? I doubt it.

Wild Riders, the best fast cavalry in the game now causes +3cr on the charge without a magic banner, can start 12" into no man's land, move freely through forests and ignore the movement and negative CR penalty other cavalry gets when in woods, and comes in at 155-160 for a unit of 5 with command. BARGAIN. +1 CR over other cavalry? And they die like they costed 18 points? No, thanks. However, I don't know forest movement penalties on 8th well. I thought they no longer hampered movement, only triggered random effects.

With the Lore of Life revamped as it is, spellsingers take Loren, Weaver takes Life, we can buff combat units to effectiveness and bolster our unit with support magic where needed. Like High Elves, Empire and Lizardmen can

All I see in the Wood Elf army is a huge potential to refine tactics, enhance synergy and get the army working as a cohesive unit and not as a hammerblow or anvil one trick pony. Units are weaker than before overall. You can develop new tactics, but the raw material is worse.

Some of you might have to learn to play, heaven forbid.

Chill out, paint your Dryads, and let's keep those humans out of OUR trees!

I plainly and completely disagree with you about WE changes. I hope you get very succesful with them on 8th and prove me wrong. I left them while they were playable, on 7th.

mdauben
24-06-2010, 20:03
Some of you might have to learn to play, heaven forbid.
There are some good points in your post, so I have to wonder why you had to ruin perfectly well thought out counter argument by throwing in a gratuitous insults? :confused:

AFAIK, Wood Elves have never had an automatic "win" button. They always required above average skill to win with consistently. Implying that any WE player who is concerned that some of the changes in 8th are going to disproportionately impact their army must be incompetent is just needlessly rude and calls into question the rest of your reasoning. :eyebrows:

Voss
24-06-2010, 20:04
to be fair, wardancers in the flank are not going to be subject to many attacks back. they won't break ranks, but they can deal a fair amount of wounds with taking too many in return.

Dyrnwyn
24-06-2010, 20:08
By all means, the skirmishing move somewhat hampers the army, but as has been said, very few of the skirmishing units in the list have missile weapons, so it's not a big deal.
Have I missed something? Skirmishing units with missile weapons were the only units that got something out of the change, as they can now march and shoot. Skirmishing units without missile weapons gained nothing and lost several things, the most important among them being a unit footprint that is manageable and fits alongside ranked units, but also 360 degree LOS.


What we lose:

Ermm...
Lemme fix that for you - we lose the ability to fit any of our skirmishing units into our free forest. We lose the ability to keep a line of skirmishers behind an anvil unit, but still charge around them. We lose the ability to still field 4+ units of skirmishers, because the sheer size of skirmishing footprints becomes unmanageable.

This is especially egregious to Forest Spirit or Treemonic Legion players, because our only Core unit Skirmishes! Unless I take Orion and get Wild Riders as Core, I'm forced to take multiple Dryad units - multiple big Dryad units so that I can fulfill the new Core reqs. I used to be able to take 24 Dryads to satisfy my core reqs - that's under 15%. I've heard alternating rumors that the new Core reqs are anywhere from 25% to 50% Core. If it's 25% - I'll need forty-two Dryads to meet the reqs at 2000. I don't think I have 42 Dryad models - I'm fairly sure I have 36 tops, including ones I haven't built yet.

I'm not enthused that I have to pick up another 12 Dryads, or that when I deploy those 42 Dryads I'll have a unit frontage of five 7x3 blocks. As opposed to the three 4x2 inch blocks I could previously use. I can't condense these units at all to squeeze between other units or terrain, and I'm going to have to deploy all that nonsense and clog up my own charge lanes from my Treekin and Treeman. I certainly don't want to make trays for them - the big appeal of skirmishers to me was that they didn't need movement trays. Now they not only need trays, they need empty base spacers that can be removed once they hit combat. No thank you, sir.

I can't imagine that we'll actually be required to field 50% Core, but if we are, I'll need an astounding eighty-four Dryads to meet that requirement - and if it comes to that, I'll quit playing Fantasy, because I'm not buying 5 more boxes of Dryads just to make my current army legal - I'll wait until we get a new army book or a new edition to start playing again.

And that's just the changes to Core and Skirmishers - I've been hearing lots of things about how forests now work and light calvalry which are not helpful to WE in the least.

Latro
24-06-2010, 20:17
AFAIK, Wood Elves have never had an automatic "win" button. They always required above average skill to win with consistently.

Wait ... you mean playing the tree-singing tree-spirit horde required above average skill?

LOL!!!!!!!!!


:D

(But I do agree with the rest of your post.)

Balerion
24-06-2010, 20:27
What we gain:

+1cr in Woods

Yeah. OK. Supposing you sit in the 1-2 wood pieces on the board and wait for the enemy to charge you there. Players are already used to avoiding woods. Now they can just avoid woods with WE in them, and freely walk though any other ones.


The combat effectiveness of a Wardancer unit is not, in anyway at all, hampered by 8th.

If you charge the front of a unit of Chaos Warriors maybe. But that is the same now, if you do it, you deserve to die.

<snip>

Wild Riders, the best fast cavalry in the game now causes +3cr on the charge without a magic banner, can start 12" into no man's land, move freely through forests and ignore the movement and negative CR penalty other cavalry gets when in woods, and comes in at 155-160 for a unit of 5 with command. BARGAIN.
Combat effectiveness =/= combat output. Effectiveness would entail staying alive long enough to make yourself worthwhile. In 8th skirmishers and WRs will do the same amount of damage, but take three times as much damage in return. Often against our T3, leaf-clad forest gangsters.



The only issue wood elves will have is the stubborn when more ranks appear rule, as this will make it more difficult to jettison a load into a unit and steamroll.

The Glade Guard come into play here, as does the magic. Wood Elf shooting will not have to focus on ranks tripping to ensure that when a Wardancer unit hits, it can flay the required models to remove stubborn.
In other words, you'll have to focus 400 points of WE to defeat 200 points of whatever else. This was always the deal with WE, but 8th will exacerbate it.




All I see in the Wood Elf army is a huge potential to refine tactics, enhance synergy and get the army working as a cohesive unit and not as a hammerblow or anvil one trick pony.

This is easily the worst part of your post. Multiple armybook entries are going to become deeply unattractive (or less attractive) for a multitude of reasons. Dryads and Wardancers that are clumsy and fragile, Glade Riders that can't bait or redirect, Warhawks and Great Eagles that are fragile and can't marchblock.

I suppose you can see synergy and cohesion in new-look WE armies, but only because it will be the same small handful of units performing the same small variety of tactics.

Balerion
24-06-2010, 20:31
What weapon makes the Alter as useful as it is? Great weapon. Will he get to attack before getting massacred? I doubt it.
The Amber Pendant will keep that build viable, plus we can expect some worthwhile weapons from the common list.

I agree will most of your other points, though.

Razhem
24-06-2010, 20:47
I want some of that kool aid Nocculum is packing!

It's one thing to go for positive thinking, it's another to be completely in denial. I'm convinced WE will find a functional build, I am even more convinced that half their list will directly be ignored if they expect to be remotely competitive.

innerwolf
24-06-2010, 20:51
The Amber Pendant will keep that build viable, plus we can expect some worthwhile weapons from the common list.

I agree will most of your other points, though.

I forgot about it, but it's cost( 35 if I remember well) leave only 15 points for protection on an Alter noble( the usual build on 7th). The fabled Standard Alter is well dead and buried.

decker_cky
24-06-2010, 21:17
Where dryads and wardancers really take a beating from the new skirmisher rules is that if you want to run them 6-7 wide, they have a frontage bigger than hordes.

Balerion
24-06-2010, 21:32
Do skirmishers still collapse into pseudo-regular ranked formation once they hit combat?

I'm sure I've read the answer already, but I'm forgetting it. :/

Nocculum
24-06-2010, 21:41
If I hear another complaint about Wood Elves staying alive long enough I'm going to resort to clawing out eyeballs with a toothpick.

It is this precise rampant paranoia that is putting me off even talking to people about Warhammer at the minute. Allow me to clarify:

'Step-Up' does not work to the flank or rear.

Wardancers will charge a flank of a unit, and still rip it a new one. As I have said before, if you charge infantry blocks full frontal without flank support, then of course you will 'die in droves'.

Even against the VAST majority of armies, the second rank get one attack per model in the second rank and some serious damage from the front depending on if they are frenzied, or 15 point + elite troops such as Chaos Warriors, Chosen, Saurus and the like. Charge these units you're mostly all scared of to the flank and pop - goes the weasel.

Again with the Altar Kindred. If you charge a long character into the front of any cavalry unit or small support unit, chances are you're going to lose him quickly. This was the case even when charging resulted in striking first. Flank charge a Knight unit or the like however, and chances are, it won't be around for a long time. The 'build' I was referring to is:

Highborn
Great Weapon, Mundane Armour as Appropriate
Glamorweave, Helm of the Hunt, Additional Items as Required.

With 8th, that Glamorweave can now be turned into a hard 4+ ward, and a 4+ armour save to survive that one knight or 2 models in a smaller unit. Hardly redundant.

I overlooked the deployment issues with skirmishers, granted. However, I only uses Dryads in units of 8 and Wardancers 8-10. It will cause concern, sure, but it is not the be all and end all of the world. It is precisely (reflecting on it) BECAUSE Wood Elves could cram entire armies into a single terrain piece, ferry it across the board and dump it all into the middle of an army and be out of line of sight for the entire duration that this change likely happened.

It's because of dropping a single skirmisher model in front of a unit with the rest arced around it's side to gnobble half a battle line with marching and wheeling dickery that this change has likely happened.

As for the Cavalry issue; Cavalry are severally hampered in trees, as you'd expect, and as they were and always have been. The fact that Wood Elves have Forest Stride (Forest Spirit rule too) should indicate that Wild Riders can not only move freely through forests, but also not suffer the negative sides to fighting in them. The fact that such a unit can start 12" into the table in said forest, charge freely out of it (and be charged in return sure, but not many armies would WANT to do that now would they? If the Deepwood Sphere and ilk were bad enough before, imagine the terrain effects to boot!) AND they're cheap, sorry people, but if you can't see how useful that is then I'm blind.

And it wasn't a gratuitious insult, harsh? Certainly, needed? No - but neither is half of the philandering going on across Warseer, the internet, and the world.

I'm sick of quoting Obama but I'm going to anyway, Change is coming.

Get used to it.

(The Uni comment is good, I think like that all the time - if my army book is being altered, what do I do about it? Get better, think different, change tactics, change lists. No sweat. I still love the army, I still like the units, I still intend to continue painting them Autumnal Flame colours - hell yeah!)

If I didn't respond to your point specifically in the above rant, my apologies, but there were alot of comments.

innerwolf
24-06-2010, 22:10
I was under the impression Step up worked to the flanks, but support attacks(2nd rank fighting) didn't. If I was wrong, my bad.

I was also talking about Alter nobles(which are the most used now), not Highborns. Lord points should be on Spellweavers, in addition I wouldn't risk such a expensive lord on suicide roles.

Edit: by the rumour roundup, you get stepping up to the flanks and rear.

Balerion
24-06-2010, 22:16
<blah>

It is this precise rampant paranoia that is putting me off even talking to people about Warhammer at the minute. Allow me to clarify:

'Step-Up' does not work to the flank or rear.

Wardancers will charge a flank of a unit, and still rip it a new one. As I have said before, if you charge infantry blocks full frontal without flank support, then of course you will 'die in droves'.

<blah blah blah>
And how do you propose to execute these flanking maneuvers, now that we've,

a) lost most of our mobility advantage
b) lost the ability to redirect
c) lost the tactic of channeling enemies between untenable terrain features
d) lost the advantage of skirmishers sneaking through tight spaces


Again, your all-inclusive "synergy and cohesion" seems to boil down to basic hammer-and-anviling with treepeople fulfilling the anvil role in every army build.

bluemage
24-06-2010, 22:25
A lot of the positive thinkers are completely forgeting the fact that these blocks will all be stubborn. That's great that your wardancers charged someone's flank and killed 10 or so goblins. But the goblins won't break now, and you'll be counter charged by another unit and lose combat.

Sure you can hide some of your army in forest and refuse to leave them, but your opponents will just kill everything that can't hide in a forest and you'll lose.

Balerion
24-06-2010, 22:30
A lot of the positive thinkers are completely forgeting the fact that these blocks will all be stubborn. That's great that your wardancers charged someone's flank and killed 10 or so goblins. But the goblins won't break now, and you'll be counter charged by another unit and lose combat.

I'm pretty sure they're only stubborn to the front.

However, as I expressed above, I believe it will be many times more difficult for WE to flank units in 8th.

innerwolf
24-06-2010, 22:33
I'm pretty sure they're only stubborn to the front.

However, as I expressed above, I believe it will be many times more difficult for WE to flank units in 8th.

By the reports I have read, they are stubborn to all facings.

Balerion
24-06-2010, 22:34
That really sucks. :(

I suppose I was hung up on an older reporting of the rule.


edit: Just recalled another lousy tidbit while browsing another thread; 4/6 types of forest yield potentially harmful results to any unit entering them (unless WE have an errata exemption). Good luck with your stupid mushroom-addict Wardancers! :p

Razhem
24-06-2010, 22:46
As I see it, go you, you flanked the unit with the sword dancers. Now you have to actually break it, which will now be hellish thanks to everybody and their mother packing an army standard bearer. So you are tar pitted, need to make a minimum 4 kills (3 ranks and standard) to actually win the combat and god forbid you have somthing in the front that can't take a beating. This of course can sort of work against crummy core units and with treekin in the front, but the whole plan goes to hell the moment you face an elite unit with a real armour save, blocks of 16-20 chaos warriors or saurus will make you their bitch and ironbreakers will make you cry.

Gormereth, the Fearmonger
24-06-2010, 22:52
1) step up does works in the flank and rear...but they won't get the "supportive attacts" so, like charging WR into the flank of HE spearmen in 7th, we have a chance.

2) ranks are now determined at the end of combat, so if you can drop them bellow their front rank +4 their not steadfast.

3) only need a single model to claim flank/rear

and now to take away the little hope I've given you
4) not only do you retain "Steadfast" even if charged in the flank or rear you are allowed to use your generals unmodified leadership, and even if you lose combat you can reform on a successful leadership check.

Wood Elves biggest issues right now are that
1) trees don't block line of sight (i.e. a couple warmachines or spell's will likely devastate a whole unit turn 1)
2) trees don't really reduce movement (i.e. that one hard hitting unit we don't want our treekin to fight are now making a be-line fore them).
3) with the new "mysterious terrain" rule it is probably more dangerous for Wood Elves to enter the forest than most other armies.
4) Step-up/Steadfast, which have previously been discussed.

If the errata's don't balance out these issues...

VoodooJanus
24-06-2010, 23:21
The problem isn't that the supportive attacks will kill WE troops (3-5 more attacks don't bother me) it's that the casualties are now removed from the rear of the unit, which means that, regardless of who's striking first, they'll still get their full compliment of attacks (supportive attacks non-withstanding.)

Another thing I've noticed is that flanking has become very difficult in the new edition due to the wheeling rules. Since any unit can wheel 90* w/o any trouble, getting a flank charge is inordinately difficult.

My army needs to adapt, I'm aware (like everyone else's) but it seems to need to adapt A LOT more than I've seen for many other armies. Oh, and BTW, I play an all-elves army, so that's my biggest issue.

But it's good getting someone with some solution-based thinking on warseer to help balance out the whiners. I just think this is one space where it may just be justified.

Rhamag
24-06-2010, 23:57
It seems to me that there are only 2 options facing Wood Elf players currently:

1) Complain & give up
2) Learn & adapt

I'm choosing to try to learn & adapt. I've already bought the models, and though I could sell them for most of what I paid for them or even a small profit, with the time & effort invested I'd rather try and learn and see what happens.

To add a caveat here, I'm rarely a competitive player. I buy armies because I like the models, and play them in a way that I enjoy. My 40k Orks have regularly ran off objectives in the final turns of a game if there was a good scrap with some beakies to be had nearby. That's what the orks would do if they were real, and it makes for fun games usually. If I lose games, I don't really care.

It does make perfect sense to me that those with a more competitive nature will bemoan the changes to the core rules , as they will win fewer games using the armies they are comfortable with. Since I play games to tell a story with my opponent, show off my models and roll some dice, the changes don't bother me much. The game was stagnating IMO, and I welcome the changes, good and bad, better and worse.

If the winning is the most important thing to you, then yes, I guess I agree that you have been screwed by the new rules, and you have my sympathy that the game you enjoy has been taken away from you. You can either sell your armies, or wait until the next armybook and see if that's better for you. The rest of us will carry-on enjoying ourselves. Best of luck in whatever you decide.

Razhem
25-06-2010, 00:02
A yes, now we are going with the "we are screwed, but lets be jolly" which pretty much nurtures the abusive relation GW has with it's consumers. You have a busted ruleset and depending on the errata, you may evade a fastball or be stuck with a horrible army book for 2-3 years. Learn and adapt doesn't seem good enough when presented with that.

Disclaimer: I'm not a Wood elf player, but I HATE HATE HATE half assed edition chances.

Rhamag
25-06-2010, 00:21
A yes, now we are going with the "we are screwed, but lets be jolly" which pretty much nurtures the abusive relation GW has with it's consumers. You have a busted ruleset and depending on the errata, you may evade a fastball or be stuck with a horrible army book for 2-3 years. Learn and adapt doesn't seem good enough when presented with that.

Disclaimer: I'm not a Wood elf player, but I HATE HATE HATE half assed edition chances.

If you'd bothered to read my post properly and understand the words, you'd notice that I said these people have my genuine sympathy. I wish everyone could play the game of Warhammer that they enjoy, I really do. But in the real world that is simply not possible. Someone will always be pissed off by something. This time, that person seems to be a bunch of High Elf players (with their ASF) and some skirmish-heavy Wood Elf guys, judging by the posts here.

Bitching about it on the internet, emailing or phoning GW, whining at GW shop staff or moaning to your gaming group WILL CHANGE NOTHING. Nothing will happen except you feel crap. Hurl abuse at sports referees or politicians on the the TV. Nothing happens.

Seriously, if whatever army you play has been shafted by 8th, sell & quit. You will have some money in your pocket and will feel better about yourself. There is no other choice.

Paraelix
25-06-2010, 00:36
Do skirmishers still collapse into pseudo-regular ranked formation once they hit combat?

I'm sure I've read the answer already, but I'm forgetting it. :/

They squish up the formation they are in.

oxoxoxo
xxxxxxx
oxoxoxo

Becomes
oooo
oooo

Balerion
25-06-2010, 00:49
It seems to me that there are only 2 options facing Wood Elf players currently:

1) Complain & give up
2) Learn & adapt


You mustn't be very imaginative then, since:

3) Complain, Learn, & Adapt

...is sitting right there in front of your face. :p

Rhamag
25-06-2010, 01:00
You mustn't be very imaginative then, since:

3) Complain, Learn, & Adapt

...is sitting right there in front of your face. :p

Too true. I nearly added that option in, but there didn't seem to be much sign that any of the Complain queue was moving across to the Adapt or Learn counters... ;)

Chiron
25-06-2010, 01:18
You WE players realise you can move woods around, you know those things that can kill you if you enter them?

Just checking

Nocculum
25-06-2010, 01:26
You WE players realise you can move woods around, you know those things that can kill you if you enter them?

Just checking


Oh, I noticed along time ago; drawing people into the woods or, even better, moving woods onto objectives.

:D

innerwolf
25-06-2010, 01:27
Oh, so much better than halving th opponent's movement like in 7th! And, you know, the forest turn killy only a small percent of the times...

Chiron
25-06-2010, 01:33
2-3 on the dice means its killy while Cav treat it as dangerous terrain

Your Fast Cav also get a free move of 12" before the game starts, so shove a wizard in there and your certain to be in range for spells right from turn 1

Paraelix
25-06-2010, 01:36
I'm thinking a focus on dispel... A centre made of squishy bow units... And flanks made of treekin/men. Lure to the middle and stomp. (Charge baiting does still work, y'know).

Nocculum
25-06-2010, 01:39
Innerwolf.

If you like 7th edition so much, play 7th edition. No-one is stopping you.

This change is minor compared to the removal of damage on the stack and mana burn in Magic The Gathering but a year or two on, it's on of the best changes the game's undergone - hated at the time, but now 100% loved.

Will it be a difficult transition? Most likely.

Will it be frustrating? Most likely.

Will it be challenging and rewarding for getting over? Definitely.

Will Fat Bloke cry over spilt milk and 'damage done to my game?' Most assuredly.

Paraelix
25-06-2010, 01:49
Will Fat Bloke cry over spilt milk and 'damage done to my game?' Most assuredly.

The Fat Bloke? Paul Sawyer?

Nocculum
25-06-2010, 01:50
Naturally.

I'm glad I'm not as old as saying that made me feel :D.

Paraelix
25-06-2010, 01:56
I miss the old White Dwarf team ;-;

macattack428
25-06-2010, 03:40
have any of the complainers played a game yet?! Sheesh! I played a 2k vs. beasts a few days ago and totally smashed him. guard shooting in two ranks was amazing... single handedly held my left flank. my 12 strong dryad unit (6x2) held an entire unit of minotaurs for three rounds untill my unit of treekin, 3x2, could help out after stomping half his army... my amber alter lord, complete with netlings ate his poor gorbull bsb for lunch... sorry but after playing one game with 8th, i think we got a boost, not a nerf...

Shiodome
25-06-2010, 04:44
Yes, played several games. congrats on using extreme luck to justify your point. The games I've played i found the new mysterious woods rules to be terrible, they just make the game 'silly'. Over the top, a bit unneccissary, and make wood elves fear to go in woods (lol).

Main problem I've had so far though Is having no way to break ranks. I have the option of either going for hideously expensive, but still fragile, ranked fast cav units or trying to win purely on CR. To win on CR i need to be doing wounds, which means density of attacks... but if i get a front and flank combo charge, the stepping up rule to the front negates any increase in kills (and costs dearly in casualties), whereas just avoiding the front for a flank only charge just doesn't do enough damage. *shrug*

And yeah, firing in two ranks is nice... but i've found as a result i'm also *receiving* a lot more missile fire. difference being mine has zero resiliance. funniest example so far is 60 nightgoblins getting off 1 shooting phase (fire in 2 ranks + volley rule = 40 shots).

scout rule on fast cav is nice, but haven't found a way to take advantage of it yet, as well... my glade guard can't do anything 12" further on than they could with their 48" range shooting anyway (30" + 18" move), seeing as march blocking has gone and rear/flank charges are a liability.

I dunno, i'll get used to it... but there's no two ways about it, to 'work' i need to almost rebuy my army, which i can't help but resent a little bit.