PDA

View Full Version : Is Fully Mechanized Fun To Play against?



TroyJPerez
24-06-2010, 18:01
I usually hate playing against armies that have everything in tanks as I think it just delays any real fighting and gameplay. I don't mind a few tanks as I feel they are important for moving around quickly, but when every single squad is rolling around in a rhino it feels a little tedious, and if I managed to lose all of my anti vehicle weapons the game is pretty much an auto loss. Am I wrong in thinking that facing a fully mechanized list is less fun than a list with just a few tanks? Or do I just need to start bringing 20 lascannons to every game, lol.

Vaktathi
24-06-2010, 18:04
I find the fully mech metagame to be pretty fun personally. Having to break the tanks before you can hit the enemies infantry or maneuver your forces into a position where your opponent is going to have to disembark into an awkward position before they can get to grips with you adds a nice dimension to the game, and helps tone down the viability of simply sitting on your side of the board with a billion heavy bolters and scything down anything not in a transport, or just charging in a straight line at another straight charging unit.

That and I have an unhealthy attraction to large numbers of tanks.

marv335
24-06-2010, 18:12
I play a mixes Ork force.
I have a few issues with the all mech list, however, once I engage, it collapses like a house of cards.
If I can weather a turn or so of the shooting, I'm in combat, and all the tanks are dead, and I just have to deal with a few infantry squads.

Creeping Dementia
24-06-2010, 18:33
I usually hate playing against armies that have everything in tanks as I think it just delays any real fighting and gameplay. I don't mind a few tanks as I feel they are important for moving around quickly, but when every single squad is rolling around in a rhino it feels a little tedious, and if I managed to lose all of my anti vehicle weapons the game is pretty much an auto loss. Am I wrong in thinking that facing a fully mechanized list is less fun than a list with just a few tanks? Or do I just need to start bringing 20 lascannons to every game, lol.

If you don't have the tools to deal with full Mech, then it could be a pain to deal with and rather un-fun. What I'm seeing when I read your post isn't that its 'less fun' to fight full Mech, it sounds like your saying 'it's harder, and I have trouble against it'.

First off though, the only time you should 'manage' to lose all your anti-tank weaponry is when you get tabled. Spread out the weaponry some, and make as many units as possible a threat to tanks. Don't let your opponent win by killing your only two anti-tank units.

Second, no, you shouldn't just bring 20 lascannons, they're too expensive and that would be just be silly. Bring 20 meltas/missile launchers, or whatever your army of choice has for weapons, instead.

Adapt.

Erwos
24-06-2010, 18:44
You're playing CSMs, right? At worst, you're down to krak grenades, and those will take out anything short of a Land Raider or a Monolith (or maybe some dreads? *shrugs*). At worst, you charge the things and hope for the best.

More likely, it's like what other people have said: you need to order a couple packs of meltagun bitz from GW and invest in some Obliterators.

Sunfang
24-06-2010, 18:44
I actually enjoy it although I often ponder if we should be playing on bigger tables now. Same point totals, i.e. 1500-3000 pts but instead on a standard 6-8 ft table should be more like something of 10-12 ft.

Seems than supporting units would be more tricky/challenging and justify the mobil nature.

Just thoughts.

Nezalhualixtlan
24-06-2010, 18:59
It's fun enough, different from other less vehicle centric games. Sometimes you just need to crack open the cans to get at the fleshy bits of meat.

Hicks
24-06-2010, 19:02
My nids definitely hate full mechanized armies, but most armies can deal with them. The one positive thing they bring though is the need to make balanced lists that must be able to deal with both tanks and infantry, making things like melta spam riskier if pushed too far.

Nezalhualixtlan
24-06-2010, 19:11
I don't mind playing full mech any more with my Tyranids, we have the tools to deal with it now between Warp Lance, Impaler Cannons, and fleeting MC's & Drop Pods. With the old Codex I just tried to adapt, it was tougher than normal but I just considered it a challenge. I'm not having too much trouble with it any more though.

GrogDaTyrant
24-06-2010, 23:14
The amount of games I play in a month has dropped sharply because of the mechanized metagame. It's not that I win or loose against them (I actually fare pretty well), but rather that it just isn't enjoyable. It might be different if the Orks actually had something that resembled an anti-tank weapon, or if I surrendered and started spamming deathrolla-wagons instead of the theme lists I enjoy. :rolleyes:

But it is exceedingly lame to be forced to just hand over 1 to 2 free turns of shooting to your opponent, while you throw yourself towards them as fast as you can. And this is coming from someone who throws buckets of dice during his shooting phase, and favors shootas exclusively over the 1-dimensional slugga/choppa setup. The castration of Zzap-Guns in the current codex, and a complete lack of anti-tank outside of PKs and Deathrollas, has made 5th ed feel more like a chore to play for me. And no... Str 8 doesn't cut it.

Of course, the stark contrast between 4th and 5th ed codex development isn't helping either...

cleansingfury
24-06-2010, 23:26
I play tyranids, and I say bring our tanks. What you have calgar and crew in your land raider. Ok I charge yo with a carnifex and with hormagaunts. All your doors are blocked, carnifex wrecks transport, calgar cant get out. Calgar dies. Works for units in rhinos too. Brought raveners to a game, assaulted a rhiuno and wrapped around the doors, oops, there goes that squad. Tanks are not a real big problem. They prevent some of his heavy weapons from shooting and give me a good way to dismantle their army unit by unit.

Wolf Lord Balrog
24-06-2010, 23:32
I started playing during 2nd Edition, when all armies were infantry with maybe 1 or 2 tanks. I liked that game, I wish I could play it again.

GrogDaTyrant
24-06-2010, 23:34
I play tyranids, and I say bring our tanks. What you have calgar and crew in your land raider. Ok I charge yo with a carnifex and with hormagaunts. All your doors are blocked, carnifex wrecks transport, calgar cant get out. Calgar dies. Works for units in rhinos too. Brought raveners to a game, assaulted a rhiuno and wrapped around the doors, oops, there goes that squad.

Vehicle-Explodes results will leave the squad in the middle of where the vehicle was. It's extremely dumb, but that means a squad of termies with Calgar will be just fine once you blow up their Land Raider. Especially since they can easily stay outside of 1" from the units surrounding it.

I think there might be another way as well under the Vehicle-Destroyed result. I believe it's under Emergency Disembark

LonelyPath
24-06-2010, 23:42
I sometimes take a full mech Ork force to the table, not often though as people don't find it that much fun to play against. Then agian, 6 trukks (2 with Nobz) and 2 gunwagons full of lootas isn't that much fun to fight.

Insta_AxE_Toast
24-06-2010, 23:42
I find mech to be pretty lame in 5th, they really botched the transports rules. There is no risk to being in a transport anymore. It gets even better when you shoot down the guard planes and the guys come out shooting. Not to mention vehicles are tougher now so it really is a no brainer.

That being said I do not mind playing it or playing against it. Its all part of the game, you really need a good amount of strong AT in 5th to stay competetive.

noobzilla
24-06-2010, 23:47
I find mech to be pretty lame in 5th, they really botched the transports rules. There is no risk to being in a transport anymore. It gets even better when you shoot down the guard planes and the guys come out shooting.

This is a joke. Every time my vehicles blow up (and im not fully meched up, tried it and hated it) I lose a majority of my squad, and for some reason, most people seem to roll explodes results quite frequently in the edition of Melta madness.

As for the Plane crashing, the guys parachute out at the last second, use your imagination.

Insta_AxE_Toast
24-06-2010, 23:52
This is a joke. Every time my vehicles blow up (and im not fully meched up, tried it and hated it) I lose a majority of my squad, and for some reason, most people seem to roll explodes results quite frequently in the edition of Melta madness.

As for the Plane crashing, the guys parachute out at the last second, use your imagination.

You lose half your squad to a single strength 4 no ap hit? I think it is time to get new dice.


They see the laser/bulltet/missle coming at them and manage to jump out before it hits? :wtf:

noobzilla
24-06-2010, 23:56
You lose half your squad to a single strength 4 no ap hit? I think it is time to get new dice.


They see the laser/bulltet/missle coming at them and manage to jump out before it hits? :wtf:

With a 5+ save? Guardsmen don't live long when wounded on a 3+ with a 5+ save.

And as the plane is falling from the sky, they jump out with parachutes. Quite simple really, as the game doesn't really take place in "real time" like it should.

tuebor
24-06-2010, 23:56
I really like the mech metagame in 5th. Most 3rd and 4th edition games with my Guard boiled down to my opponent running towards me while I rolled dice at him for three turns and then him rolling dice at me in close combat for three turns. Boring as hell.

But now between reasonably priced Chimeras and the new vehicle rules I actually do things in the Movement phase. Of course, when I run all-infantry I can move now due to certain changes in the IG codex and the changes to the consolidation rules, but I really enjoy the amount of maneuvering that occurs between two mechanized armies.

Vaktathi
24-06-2010, 23:59
You lose half your squad to a single strength 4 no ap hit? I think it is time to get new dice. If it's an IG squad (T3 5+sv), that's about right. 9 models (HWT is 1 model not 2) hit at S4 being T3 are wounded 6 times on average, 5+ save means 4 get through, so about half the squad (4 of 9). Pretty routine, sounds about right to me.

Nazdrugh
25-06-2010, 00:03
I started playing during 2nd Edition... I liked that game, I wish I could play it again.

Surely you still can?

Insta_AxE_Toast
25-06-2010, 00:07
If it's an IG squad (T3 5+sv), that's about right. 9 models (HWT is 1 model not 2) hit at S4 being T3 are wounded 6 times on average, 5+ save means 4 get through, so about half the squad (4 of 9). Pretty routine, sounds about right to me.

He said everytime he loses the majority of his squad....

noobzilla
25-06-2010, 00:09
5 or 6 out of 10 seems about right. My opponents seem to roll phenomenally and I can only pass so many 5+ saves...

Insta_AxE_Toast
25-06-2010, 00:21
5 or 6 out of 10 seems about right. My opponents seem to roll phenomenally and I can only pass so many 5+ saves...

I guess our views differ from me having the imobilized curse. I always seem to get it, although it does help me against russes. I have yet to explode a transport... You on the other hand are on the receiving end of it.

I am one of the few people who liked the entangled rule from 4th. It was brutal, but fun.

Vaktathi
25-06-2010, 00:23
Ugh, auto-pinning made transports deathtraps. Most of the 4E transport rules seemed to be designed to keep anyone from ever purchasing a non-skimmer transport.

Xyrex
25-06-2010, 00:31
Really? I'm dying to play against a vehicle army rather than all the usual tyranid crap. Same ol melta vs carni, h bolter vs gaunts... *sigh*

Insta_AxE_Toast
25-06-2010, 00:31
Ugh, auto-pinning made transports deathtraps. Most of the 4E transport rules seemed to be designed to keep anyone from ever purchasing a non-skimmer transport.

Not really anymore deathtrapish than now. You just need to support the troops from assaults.

What about a slight modifier to the pinning test? -1 for wrecked and -2 for explodes?

Vaktathi
25-06-2010, 00:39
Not really anymore deathtrapish than now. You just need to support the troops from assaults. There was auto-pinning instead of pinning test, auto-disembarking if you suffered a penetrating hit, being wounded on a 4+ if the transport was destroyed adn 4+ with rerolls if exploded, coupled with the ability to kill vehicles on glancing hits and destroy then on a 4+ on pens.

This was why skimmer armies were the only ones that ever actually took transports.



What about a slight modifier to the pinning test? -1 for wrecked and -2 for explodes?wouldn't be terrible, although personally I'd prefer more simple damage to passengers, force an Init test for all models or take a wound with no saves allowed. You'd double average casualties from a vehicle explodes on something like a CSM squad in a rhino (~1.66 to 3.33 average casualties), but not make it so painful that the squad is useless the next turn.

Wolf Lord Balrog
25-06-2010, 00:54
Surely you still can?

I'm the only person I know that still owns any 2nd Ed books. I have the contents of both of the box sets, so I have all the main rule books, cards, and templates, but the only 2nd Ed codex I have is Space Wolves.


Not really anymore deathtrapish than now. You just need to support the troops from assaults.

What about a slight modifier to the pinning test? -1 for wrecked and -2 for explodes?

My suggestion to rebalance the power of armor has been to change the Glancing Hit penalty from -2 to -1, so it is possible again to kill vehicles on a Glance. Not likely, only 1-in-6, but possible. Suddenly Autocannons and Missile Launchers are even more fearsome.

Lordmonkey
25-06-2010, 01:06
Yes, it is.

Vaktathi
25-06-2010, 01:06
My suggestion to rebalance the power of armor has been to change the Glancing Hit penalty from -2 to -1, so it is possible again to kill vehicles on a Glance. Not likely, only 1-in-6, but possible. Suddenly Autocannons and Missile Launchers are even more fearsome.

There was a very good reason for removing this, and we don't need anti-infantry weapons doubling as half decent anti-vehicle weapons again. -1 for glancing allows basic CC attacks from most units to kill the vast majority of vehicles in the game, it allows bolters, stubbers, and other anti-infantry weapons to inflict outright kill results against units they have no business doing so. You end up in situations again where massed rapid firing bolters are better at killing light vehicles than Lascannons. Scatterlasers become just as effective at killing AV12 vehicles as bright lances. Not something that the game needs again, it was a solid balance decision to remove the ability of glancing hits to kill vehicles.

Speaking as someone with a butt-ton of autocannon models, both CSM and IG, they don't need to be any better against vehicles than they are now.

Aliarzathanil
25-06-2010, 01:23
In response to the OP, yes I find mech armies dull. I swear you could play a guard army with fifty troops and noT have a single boot touch dirt. It's dumb. I like guard, but vets, vendettas and cheap chimeras have made that army boring (as every army is a mix of the aforementioned units).

Wolf Lord Balrog
25-06-2010, 01:46
There was a very good reason for removing this, and we don't need anti-infantry weapons doubling as half decent anti-vehicle weapons again. -1 for glancing allows basic CC attacks from most units to kill the vast majority of vehicles in the game, it allows bolters, stubbers, and other anti-infantry weapons to inflict outright kill results against units they have no business doing so. You end up in situations again where massed rapid firing bolters are better at killing light vehicles than Lascannons. Scatterlasers become just as effective at killing AV12 vehicles as bright lances. Not something that the game needs again, it was a solid balance decision to remove the ability of glancing hits to kill vehicles.

Speaking as someone with a butt-ton of autocannon models, both CSM and IG, they don't need to be any better against vehicles than they are now.

Bolters threatening vehicles? Each bolter shot (assuming BS4) would have a 1/54th chance of taking down an AV10 vehicle, and no chance at all against AV11+.

Heavy bolters as anti-transport weapons? Each heavy bolter (per weapon, not per shot, assuming BS4 again) would have 1/27th chance of downing an AV11 vehicle.

So weapons that can only penetrate a vehicle's armor on a 6 would become 50% more effective against those vehicles with this change. I don't mind that in the slightest. I'm tired of Tankhammer. I want to have some infantry battles again.

Erwos
25-06-2010, 02:01
Not only that, but glancing hits can STILL kill vehicles. You just have to get enough weapon destroyed / immobilized results. I had it happen to my Land Raider once...

Kirby
25-06-2010, 02:07
More mobility, options and thought in the movement and target priority plus actually needing to build balanced lists capable of dealing with a lot of infantry and tanks. Sounds fun.

Insta_AxE_Toast
25-06-2010, 02:08
There was auto-pinning instead of pinning test, auto-disembarking if you suffered a penetrating hit, being wounded on a 4+ if the transport was destroyed adn 4+ with rerolls if exploded, coupled with the ability to kill vehicles on glancing hits and destroy then on a 4+ on pens.

This was why skimmer armies were the only ones that ever actually took transports.

wouldn't be terrible, although personally I'd prefer more simple damage to passengers, force an Init test for all models or take a wound with no saves allowed. You'd double average casualties from a vehicle explodes on something like a CSM squad in a rhino (~1.66 to 3.33 average casualties), but not make it so painful that the squad is useless the next turn.

Sorry I was just talking about the Auto Entangle. I am not sure I like the init test due to being in a cramped transport. Maybe an init test to see if you are pinned?

noobzilla
25-06-2010, 02:46
I guess our views differ from me having the imobilized curse. I always seem to get it, although it does help me against russes. I have yet to explode a transport... You on the other hand are on the receiving end of it.

I am one of the few people who liked the entangled rule from 4th. It was brutal, but fun.

It happened again today, while playing a game, my transports were both exploded... Lost a lot of guys to explosions :(

tuebor
25-06-2010, 03:16
In response to the OP, yes I find mech armies dull. I swear you could play a guard army with fifty troops and noT have a single boot touch dirt. It's dumb. I like guard, but vets, vendettas and cheap chimeras have made that army boring (as every army is a mix of the aforementioned units).

You need to play with some different Guard players, then. Where I play most players went through a completely mechanized phase, but most now are playing hybrid lists with one or two large platoons.


Not only that, but glancing hits can STILL kill vehicles. You just have to get enough weapon destroyed / immobilized results. I had it happen to my Land Raider once...

It happened to one of my Exorcists yesterday :(

TheSanityAssassin
25-06-2010, 06:22
It can be fun, assuming both people are reasonably mechanized (or at least equipped to fight it), and that the mech players actually WANT to fight.

The problem to me is either "Tank Castle" guard armies, where everything just deploys in a corner in Chimeras with infantry behind (which turns again into "run at the guard", except that you can't really hurt them when you get there), as this is mech while still being static. Nothing is less fun than being a target for 6 turns (if you last that long) while not being able to do very much yourself. I also find that if I mech up myself against this kind of army I end up with a "whoever goes first shakes all the enemy vehicles, and thus only one player shoots for the rest of the game" kind of experience, which is also annoying.

My other peeve are the mech lists (usually Eldar, but at times others), that simply spend the whole game AVOIDING any kind of combat. They fly around in circles going very fast while you fail to harm them, then ram/tank shock you on the last turn. There's one local player who has yet to have a 2k point game last more than 50 minutes because he only EVER takes a movement phase. But he wins like 80% of the time, so he's not inclined to face it.

Anyways, that's my rant.

Vaktathi
25-06-2010, 07:45
Bolters threatening vehicles? Each bolter shot (assuming BS4) would have a 1/54th chance of taking down an AV10 vehicle, and no chance at all against AV11+. When you are firing 20 shots though, that turns into a solid chance, better than 2 Krak Missiles at AV10.




Heavy bolters as anti-transport weapons? Each heavy bolter (per weapon, not per shot, assuming BS4 again) would have 1/27th chance of downing an AV11 vehicle. A Leman Russ with 3 HB's would have about the same chance of killing an AV11 transport with its HB's as it would the battlecannon at that point.

Again, the fact that you get weapons like Scatterlasers becoming as effective against AV12 as a bright lance or krak missile speaks volumes as to why this is a bad idea.

You get heavy anti-infantry weapons being put to effective use as medium anti-tank guns.



So weapons that can only penetrate a vehicle's armor on a 6 would become 50% more effective against those vehicles with this change. I don't mind that in the slightest. I'm tired of Tankhammer. I want to have some infantry battles again.Then play infantry, nobody is stopping you. Don't make tanks unviable, which is exactly what this will do. Having bolters able to kill Leman Russ tanks is not what the game needs to return to. You're playing a game where many of the armies are famed for mechanized warfare (Marines, Eldar, DE, IG, etc) and vehicles form a centerpiece of the 40k universe and 40k's gameplay, all infantry battles aren't what 40k has ever been about.

The vehicle damage chart is fine, nobody complains about the gun platform tanks, it's the transports. Make the transports a little harsher without turning them into deathtraps or returning us to the days of 4E where tanks, and non skimmer transports, were pointless.

Don't make vehicles as a whole worse.

Scythe
25-06-2010, 07:57
I don't mind transports in general.

What I do find slightly annoying (both when playing with and against them) are transports who give the embarked unit no real tactical reason to disembark. Having a bunch of models sitting in a box while being embarked on their transport for the whole game isn't fun, and doesn't motivate to paint those to high standards either (they are sitting in the box anyway. I want to see those models on the table!).

Removing all fire points from every transport vehicle and forcing units to disembark if they want to capture an objective (no embarked capturing) would fix those things though.

Wade Wilson
25-06-2010, 08:28
WHile i find that mech lists are nowhere near as difficult to deal with as Nids as was suggested a few months ago it can at times be a bit tedious. Now, every player has a right to choose how they want to play the game and i wont refuse to play anyone with a meched up list. But i do sigh a little when I play the 3rd or 4th game in a row were the enemy has 3 dreadnaughts, predator/land raider/vindicator spam and a tone of razorbacks kitted with heavy weapons with a few scouts as troops hidden away inside waiting for the last turn or two to grab objectives.
These games are not particularly hard to win depending on your own unit choices (c/c tank killers or heavy weapons spred around the board) but they aren't always that fun either. Now and again they can be a laugh but not all the time, they lack variety and alot of the time it comes down to who has the luck of the dice.

But again, every player has the right to field whatever legal army they want so if there is a local meta to mech up then just make sure your army is equipped to deal with it as best you can.

Erwos
25-06-2010, 10:25
What I do find slightly annoying (both when playing with and against them) are transports who give the embarked unit no real tactical reason to disembark. Having a bunch of models sitting in a box while being embarked on their transport for the whole game isn't fun, and doesn't motivate to paint those to high standards either (they are sitting in the box anyway. I want to see those models on the table!).
Just sitting in your transports is something of a risk against a particularly evil player... if they decide to assault your vehicle and cover the hatches, you could wind up losing the entire squad.

Scythe
25-06-2010, 10:41
Just sitting in your transports is something of a risk against a particularly evil player... if they decide to assault your vehicle and cover the hatches, you could wind up losing the entire squad.

In theory, yes. In practice, this requires so many variables to work it is hardly an issue to anyone who knows what he is doing. Even if it does, odds are quite high that your squad would have been pasted by shooting / assaulting troops anyway, so being destroyed by not being able to deploy hardly makes a huge difference.

tuebor
25-06-2010, 14:37
Just sitting in your transports is something of a risk against a particularly evil player... if they decide to assault your vehicle and cover the hatches, you could wind up losing the entire squad.

It doesn't really work like that any more. If you can't disembark normally due to the hatches being covered you can do an "emergency disembarkation" that deploys the models anywhere within 2" of the hull, but they are effectively pinned for the rest of the turn. From page 67 under "Disembarkation".

Pawn of Decay
25-06-2010, 14:55
I field a Mech list. By Mech list My three very expensive troop units are in Rhinos and the rest of my army minus Mr. Daemon Prince deepstrikes.

I love playing against mech armies. It's so much more realistic. Infantry backed up by tanks is how War is fought. WWII showed that to be an effective way of fighting. Troops don't run or walk into battle. They take transports there. They either have to get out the transport or the decision gets made for them at some point during the course of the battle.

It's the same in 40k. Rhino's either go down, or at some point you're going to want more than those 2 guns firing out of the top. If you can sit around all game in your tanks then your opposition has done something seriously wrong.

Erwos
25-06-2010, 14:55
It doesn't really work like that any more. If you can't disembark normally due to the hatches being covered you can do an "emergency disembarkation" that deploys the models anywhere within 2" of the hull, but they are effectively pinned for the rest of the turn. From page 67 under "Disembarkation".
I did not know that!

Another big disadvantage of just sitting in a Rhino is that you can't mass fire bolters or bolt pistols. From time to time, this is an extremely appealing option.

Wolf Lord Balrog
25-06-2010, 16:21
I did not know that!

Another big disadvantage of just sitting in a Rhino is that you can't mass fire bolters or bolt pistols. From time to time, this is an extremely appealing option.

Not true for IG. Chimera with 5 fire points ftw...

I remember when an IG infantry gunline was unstoppable. There was this one guy at my old LGS, his main IG list was all infantry except for a command squad in a Chimera and a single Leman Russ. Nobody beat him, ever. But those games were still fun. Despite the fact that you knew you were probably going to lose, you still felt like you had a chance. I don't get that feeling going up against 8+ non-transport tanks.

blackjack
25-06-2010, 16:32
Scoring in vechiles is lame. We releanred in Iraq that you can not control an area inside your humvee. You have to get out, boots on the ground, to control territory. Changing this one rule would go a long way to balancing all mech armies, espchially mech eldar armies.

Vaktathi
25-06-2010, 18:20
Scoring in vechiles is lame. We releanred in Iraq that you can not control an area inside your humvee. You have to get out, boots on the ground, to control territory. Changing this one rule would go a long way to balancing all mech armies, espchially mech eldar armies.

It might not be realistic, but it's a huge balancing factor. SM's and large ork horde units can hold an objective for a couple turns without needing to be in a transport. A T3 4+/5+ sv Eldar/IG infantry unit with 10 bodies isn't going to be able to hold it the same way, especially when they may need to hold it for 3 turns. One flamer and they're gone, whereas for SM's they may lose what, 1 or 2 guys?

Erwos
25-06-2010, 18:36
Scoring in vechiles is lame. We releanred in Iraq that you can not control an area inside your humvee. You have to get out, boots on the ground, to control territory. Changing this one rule would go a long way to balancing all mech armies, espchially mech eldar armies.
Or just having to hold on to an objective for more than one turn. Or just going back to "pick up the item, run off your side of the board".

senorcardgage
25-06-2010, 19:34
It might not be realistic, but it's a huge balancing factor. SM's and large ork horde units can hold an objective for a couple turns without needing to be in a transport. A T3 4+/5+ sv Eldar/IG infantry unit with 10 bodies isn't going to be able to hold it the same way, especially when they may need to hold it for 3 turns. One flamer and they're gone, whereas for SM's they may lose what, 1 or 2 guys?

Well, I think that's why your IG infantry unit costs 50 points, and not 170.

Vaktathi
25-06-2010, 19:43
Well, I think that's why your IG infantry unit costs 50 points, and not 170.

Right, but for the purposes of holding objectives that doesn't quite equal out. When you are talking about holding an objective you generally look at the unit in an absolute sense, rather than when looking at killing power you look at it in a relative sense, where the costs do equal out.

Also, not all T3 infantry units are only 50pts. A full squad of kitted DA's is going to run about 152 typically or thereabouts, and isn't really much harder to drive off, one heavy flamer gets rid of the 152pt unit as easily as it does the 50pt unit.

senorcardgage
25-06-2010, 19:49
Right, but for the purposes of holding objectives that doesn't quite equal out. When you are talking about holding an objective you generally look at the unit in an absolute sense, rather than when looking at killing power you look at it in a relative sense, where the costs do equal out.

Also, not all T3 infantry units are only 50pts. A full squad of kitted DA's is going to run about 152 typically or thereabouts, and isn't really much harder to drive off, one heavy flamer gets rid of the 152pt unit as easily as it does the 50pt unit.

I don't know, maybe I just don't have the experience you do, but it just doesn't seem to be that big of a deal to me. In my experience, heavy flamers aren't particularly common, and if you did see one coming, I would imagine that you could react to it accordingly.

Vaktathi
25-06-2010, 20:03
I don't know, maybe I just don't have the experience you do, but it just doesn't seem to be that big of a deal to me. In my experience, heavy flamers aren't particularly common, and if you did see one coming, I would imagine that you could react to it accordingly.

IG and WH armies typically field them in good amounts, as do many SM armies with Land Speeders.

Either way, S3 T3 4+/5+sv troops having to hold an objective out of a transport for up to 3 turns is an entirely different game than a squad of S4 T4 3+sv units doing so, one that will likely see that scoring unit very very dead. SM's can sit in cover and take hits and hold an objective for multiple turns, Eldar, Fire Warriors and Guardsmen can't.

senorcardgage
25-06-2010, 20:14
IG and WH armies typically field them in good amounts, as do many SM armies with Land Speeders.

Either way, S3 T3 4+/5+sv troops having to hold an objective out of a transport for up to 3 turns is an entirely different game than a squad of S4 T4 3+sv units doing so, one that will likely see that scoring unit very very dead. SM's can sit in cover and take hits and hold an objective for multiple turns, Eldar, Fire Warriors and Guardsmen can't.

Fair enough, but you don't necessarily have to hold objectives for a whole bunch of turns. You can pop out of your transports on turn 5, and then you have to face between 0-3 enemy turns.

If the rule modification were put into place, you could act accordingly and plan ahead, making sure that there aren't a bunch of heavy flamers flying around by the time turn 5 came about.

Remember, we're also talking about troops getting out of their transports, meaning that they can use their transports to block LOS, etc.

Vaktathi
25-06-2010, 20:30
There's things one can do to mitigate threats, but it's impossible to eliminate them, and even a couple decent shots getting through can really hurt these units, unlike SM's. Three heavy bolters from 36" away firing at SM's might kill one, whereas they'll likely kill ~3 (depending on cover or not, 2-4) Dire Avenger/FireWarrior/Guardsmen type models, which is enough to force a morale test. Then there's always the threat of assaults, which again SM's can at least hold to contest if the enemy gets in there instead of being swept aside like firewarriors, dire avengers, and guardsmen.

Hence why scoring in transports has been the great equalizer, as outside the transports such units likely won't hold such an objective for more than one turn if the opponent is still capable at all, whereas something like a CSM unit could reliably hold and defend it much better.

triplare
25-06-2010, 20:39
Scoring in vechiles is lame. We releanred in Iraq that you can not control an area inside your humvee. You have to get out, boots on the ground, to control territory. Changing this one rule would go a long way to balancing all mech armies, espchially mech eldar armies.

Agreed. If there was one thing I could change in regards to vehicles, it would be not allowing embarked Troops to capture objectives.

Personally I'm pretty sick-n-bored fighting all-mech armies, but I certainly can't blame those players for fielding their armies like that. I certainly won't turn down fighting lists like that and I'll give it my all like any other battle; it's just that in my experience, time after time these mech armies just sit hunkered in the very back/corner of the field in a gunline, moving 1" or less back and forth, then rushing the objectives on turn 4/5. I came to the game for some engaging battles, not to be on the receiving end of a game of Space Invaders.

MetalGecko23
25-06-2010, 21:03
I love all mech armies but am not so keen on all infantry unless its Orks or Tyranids. I'm not a fan of static who is tougher armies or slogging/jump infantry assault armies. I'm much happier playing against armies were all phases are put to the test. Which is were mech lists excel.

That being said I always play my mech armies straight into the teeth of my opponent. Its how mech should be played and when it is the most fun. I play mech Space Marines and mech Imperial Guard. An even with the Guard I still always am pursuing the objective and trying to gun down my opponent and even assault by picking my fights.

Mech armies should play more like wolves and less like turtles.

mdauben
25-06-2010, 21:54
I used to hate playing against the old IG Armoured Company list. Not becuase it was unbeatable but because it was hard to beat without tailoring for it. Back then the metagame included much smaller numbers of armoured vehicles so the typical army was not prepared to deal with a dozen or more tanks.

Now, with the increased presence of tanks and APCs in most armies, a balanced, "all comers" list needs to be able to deal with large numbers of armoured vehicles, so facing a full mech army is not suprising anymore and most people include ways of dealing with it.

So, yeah, its as much fun as facing any other challanging list will be. ;)

fluffstalker
26-06-2010, 04:14
I pretty much dont run my chimvelt, vendetta list anymore. I've gone back to old fashioned human wave, mordian bayonet style tactics, its much more fun for both parties (especially my tyranid opponents who, outside of Hive guard fire, simply cannot deal with 10-12 tanks on the table), requires a bit more thought to grab objectives instead of waiting until the last minute and then rushing the critical points with hordes of av 12. With all infantry you have to anticipate in the first turns where your mass of squishies is going to end up four turns down the line.

SabrX
26-06-2010, 05:58
Fully mechanized army can be a hindrance more than an advantage in annihilation missions or on a terrain heavy board.

hungry hungry hormagaunt
26-06-2010, 10:25
My main gripe is how utterly useless it is to attack vehicles in close combat. Hitting on 6s, with no reroll for Preferred Enemy, and if you manage to kill the transport the squad inside it will promptly rapid-fire you to death next turn. Lame. Really makes life hard for Daemons.

Now, if rerolls against vehicles were more readily available, or if there were a way to hit on something other than 6s (a vehicle that's just been charged in the front by a Monstrous Creature should NOT count as moving fast, for example), or if a unit that just trashed a transport could immediately move into CQC with the disembarked squad (not getting an extra round of attacks or anything, just having one turn of protection from being shot at), then it might be viable.

As it is, shooting is the only sane way to kill vehicles, which leaves Daemons out in the cold and forces Tyranids to rely on Tyrannofexes and Hive Guard or Zoans.

Pawn of Decay
26-06-2010, 14:58
Daemons aren't left out the cold at all. Have you ever looked at a Soulgrinder or a Lord of Change?

Lord Castellan of Canadia
26-06-2010, 15:59
I myself play a mechanized list. I'm sorry if anyone I've ever played against with it has inwardly groaned at the thought of facing my army, but there is one particular thing that my collection allows me to do.

Change it up. The only time I ever consistently play Mech Guard is in a Tournament setting. Otherwise, I try to make different lists based around themes.

While I'm on the subject of Mech Guard, I should also mention that while the army itself is abusable, that doesn't mean that it can't be fun to play against. Typically, my list in 1k points consists of Plasma Vets, Chimera's, a Medusa, and a very expensive unit of Stormtroopers teamed up with a tooled up Commissar Lord. Pretty standard fare of course, but if instead of keeping my units in transports for the whole game, I concentrate fire to eliminate threats (Or keep transport units from moving as quickly as myself), and jump out on turn 3-4 to contest/hold objectives, and unleash a decent amount of fire, I'd say that's a least a little different.

Here's the major difference though. Playing Mech Guard doesn't mean you can't use the assault phase. Ever whittled down a unit of Grey Knights with Hot-Shot Laspistols, Plasma-Pistols, and covering fire, then assaulted them with a couple power weapons?

It's glorious.

WH40KAj
26-06-2010, 16:20
I don't mind transports in general.

What I do find slightly annoying (both when playing with and against them) are transports who give the embarked unit no real tactical reason to disembark. Having a bunch of models sitting in a box while being embarked on their transport for the whole game isn't fun, and doesn't motivate to paint those to high standards either (they are sitting in the box anyway. I want to see those models on the table!).

Removing all fire points from every transport vehicle and forcing units to disembark if they want to capture an objective (no embarked capturing) would fix those things though.

This. +1
Give that man a cookie.

This to me is what should be done.

Solar_Eclipse
26-06-2010, 16:45
Fire points arent bad, but forcing disembarktion would be fine to me.

Scythe
28-06-2010, 06:52
Fire points arent bad, but forcing disembarktion would be fine to me.

Meh, I never found the idea of my guardsmen madly firing those meltaguns from a fast moving vehicle to be particulary realistic (watch out for that! *bump* *meltagun burns away half the chimera*) or fun (as I argued before, models which do not see the tabletop are just sad).

lethlis
28-06-2010, 13:37
Gotta crack the shell to get to the nuts inside. Further proof that the original transformers movie has all the advice you shall ever need

razormasticator
28-06-2010, 13:49
If it's an IG squad (T3 5+sv), that's about right. 9 models (HWT is 1 model not 2) hit at S4 being T3 are wounded 6 times on average, 5+ save means 4 get through, so about half the squad (4 of 9). Pretty routine, sounds about right to me.

Yep. 3-5 on average on a 5+ save. Thats what I have experienced as well.

Inquisitor_Tolheim
28-06-2010, 14:01
Meh, I never found the idea of my guardsmen madly firing those meltaguns from a fast moving vehicle to be particulary realistic (watch out for that! *bump* *meltagun burns away half the chimera*) or fun (as I argued before, models which do not see the tabletop are just sad).

Perhaps a BS penalty depending on how fast the vehicle moves is in order? Obviously if it charges around the table flat out then you can't fire at all, but even when the tank is moving slowly the embarked units should find it harder to hit the enemy.

Erwos
28-06-2010, 14:10
Perhaps a BS penalty depending on how fast the vehicle moves is in order? Obviously if it charges around the table flat out then you can't fire at all, but even when the tank is moving slowly the embarked units should find it harder to hit the enemy.
By this logic, everyone should take a -1BS penalty for moving and shooting, period. It's not like walking forward and shooting is significantly easier than shooting from a vehicle moving at that speed. Heck, it might even be harder (gotta watch your feet, no firing port to brace against).

Besides, the game is slow enough as it is, we don't need yet another modifier to be applied every turn.

ReveredChaplainDrake
28-06-2010, 15:46
The obvious nerf to Mechanized armies is kill points. If you play the wrong mission, you're either going to have to get out of your tank to wipe out a unit, or you're going to stay inside until your tank blows up, giving 1KP, and then lose your squad for another 1KP. Don't shun Annihilation, and there's your nerf.

I don't mind Mech when I'm fielding my Night Lords. Then I actually have the tools to handle it, what with 9 Meltaguns in a 2250 list. At that point, it really becomes a game of who can force who out of whose tanks first for the first couple turns. The real game starts at about Turn 3, where my "deployment" is wherever my Rhinos wound up scurrying to, or wherever my guys got blown out of their Rhinos. C'mon, fast assaults are the only remaining way to play fluffy Night Lords. Don't take that away from me, too! :cries:

My Tyranids are a lot less charitable about mechanized armies. Sure, driving into the enemy's teeth and disgorging huge combat units like a man is all well and good, but I've noticed that there's something about playing Tyranids that seems to sap my opponents of their testosterone faster than you can say Pottery Barn. After that, the game seems to... deteriorate.

You see, the one Space Marine built a Rhino as his Transport, but the Hive Guard came along and said "Little Smurf, little Smurf, let me come in!" "Not by the hair of my chinny-chin-chin!" replied the Ultramarine. So the Hive Guard wrecked his metal box and the Marine ran off to his brother.

The second Marine was older and wiser, and he built a Razorback for his Transport. Then along came the Hive Guard who said "Little Smurf, little Smurf, let me come in!" "Not by the hair of my chinny-chin-chin!" the Ultramarine replied. So the Hive Guard wrecked the second metal box and both Space Marines ran off to their elder brother.

The third Mairne was the wisest and most obnoxious of all, and he built a Land Raider as his Transport...

fluffstalker
28-06-2010, 15:59
Epic post rev.

Erwos
28-06-2010, 16:40
The third Mairne was the wisest and most obnoxious of all, and he built a Land Raider as his Transport...
I saw someone spam Land Raiders against Orks last week on the table next to mine. Four LRs on the table versus a ginormous Ork horde. It was, as far as I could tell, five turns of the Orks bouncing off the LRs and the LRs ineffectually peppering the horde.

I would not mind seeing some game variants where you didn't have to worry about masses of vehicles and pie plates, and I say this as a guy who can field both. Even a simple "no 2+ saves, up to three AV12 vehicles, up to one deep-strike unit" variant would dramatically alter list composition to be more interesting. Some armies might suffer from this more than others, I admit, but it's a thought.

razormasticator
28-06-2010, 18:24
a 4 Landraider list is just plain unfriendly. I routinely face 2 Land Raider Chaos & Nilla Marine lists in my group often. And I struggle to pop 1 with my Eldar, my Guard have an easier time with the Chimelta veterans. But still.
4... Yikes.

sir samuel
28-06-2010, 20:07
if im playing as the mechanized force i love if im not i hate it.

nice tip if your against an rmy like that us fire dragons