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Sexiest_hero
24-06-2010, 21:59
They are cheap, you can 1 dice most spells, and you can raise a ton of zombies quick. At 600 points you can pack in 12 of these guys. do you think this will work?

Malorian
24-06-2010, 22:05
Maybe... you just have to watch that you don't dump too many points into them.

We already have to spend a ton of points on core that you might not need to raise so much anyway.

LevDaddy
24-06-2010, 23:21
They are cheap, you can 1 dice most spells, and you can raise a ton of zombies quick. At 600 points you can pack in 12 of these guys. do you think this will work?

They are pretty cheap, and can be effective, especially since you can purchase up to 3 necro spells per and, thus, have duplicate spells in your army.

However, I don't see why you would ever need 12 as Wizards no longer generate power or dispell dice on there own (aside from a 1/6 chance to channel per wizard).

If you only generate 2 PD on a turn for your magic phase, and you have 12 Necros, you have really just wasted about 500 points. Even on a decent PD roll of about 7-8 dice, there isn't much of a point to have more than 1 or 2 necros, ever.

Yrrdead
25-06-2010, 05:57
I'm sorry I thought this was silly when it was first postulated early on in the rumor cycle. Turns out after seeing the rules and playing a few games I still feel it is silly.

I just can't justify using up my precious hero points on a necro. Terrible stat line, doesn't have the Vampire special rule. Why would you want too? Simply to get Van Hels?

I'd much rather have a Vamp w/ FL in all situations. That gives you a very good stat line, all the spells in a lore + Invo.

Ultimate Life Form
25-06-2010, 08:58
I have to test things out first but I'm positive that it will definitely be far more viable to field one than before (though not 12). Maybe I haven't bought those Heinrich Kemmlers for nothing after all.

shortlegs
25-06-2010, 09:48
As mentioned in the VC thread, whether a natural 1 or 2 on a single die is a failed dispel will affect necro heavy being viable or not. If 1 or 2 means a failed dispel, you can have a few necros chucking single die invocs, daring the opponent level 4 to roll a single dispel die and risk nullifying his +4 to dispel, or roll 2 dice instead and drain his DD pool much faster. With MotBA, VC armies should have more than enough PD to trade in this fashion with an opponent's DD with enough for a fair bit of raising.

Another thing is, if you're bringing a lvl3/4 lord, unless you really need the vampiric gifts (such as the summoning abilities), a necro is a MUCH cheaper alternative. In 8th, a vamp hero just seems way too fragile for its cost (easily reaching 200pts for a 2 wound model).

Scythe
25-06-2010, 09:53
I just can't justify using up my precious hero points on a necro. Terrible stat line, doesn't have the Vampire special rule. Why would you want too? Simply to get Van Hels?

To get Van Hells reliably, mutliple times I guess.


I'd much rather have a Vamp w/ FL in all situations. That gives you a very good stat line, all the spells in a lore + Invo.

While the vampire, overall, is superior stat wise to a necromancer, he is also double the basic cost. A tooled vampire is 200 pts, while a necromancer with maximal items is half that. You could get a Wight King for that difference, and use him as a fightly hero. Instead of putting your all eggs in the vampire basket, you now have 2 separate characters, so you won't have to risk your caster in close combat.

Now, the vampire has other advantages, so it is not entirely a clear cut / no brainer, but taking a necromancer definitely has potential if you are only looking for a cheap caster or want to spread your casting / combat ability.

Another point: the necromancer is your cheapest access to common magic items. If you want to pack that frog scroll or that scroll of 'cause wounds on caster', or something similar, the cheapest option to do that is taking a necromancer.

malisteen
25-06-2010, 11:10
The cheap cost and choice of necro spells is a selling point, but I doubt I'd ever take more then two, and even then only if I was planning on single dicing some invocations with one.

All the spells they can take can be cast multiple times in the same magic phase, so one necro is generally as good as several.

Buying one or both extra spells for them is a decent option, though. The point has already been made that while a vamp is better then a necro, it's not necessarily better then the necro and wight king together that you can get for the same points.

Nocculum
25-06-2010, 11:47
A small 'choir' of them might work, 3 perhaps, one with each of the purchasable spells to give you a mobile casting base at the core of your army. It passes some of the points from your vampires, so they can support and utilise their combat stats, and you can keep this unit of Necros in reserve/rear guard alongside corpsecarts.

12 is not going to work, ever.

Scythe
25-06-2010, 12:24
The cheap cost and choice of necro spells is a selling point, but I doubt I'd ever take more then two, and even then only if I was planning on single dicing some invocations with one.


More than 2 seems like a waste indeed. With a power dice pool of 12 dice max (usually less), and the undesirable 33% chance of failing catastrophically when casting on a single dice, max spells you will be casting is about 6, so little point in buying a lot of mages beyond that number of spells. I think a single high level wizard for the excelllent bonus to cast/dispel and 1-2 backup hero necromancers OR vampires will be optimal. As lord precentages do not refund to the hero percentages if you do not use them (as far as I am aware at least), skipping the Vampire Lord to focus on heroes is usually not really an option in any larger game...

Agnar the Howler
25-06-2010, 12:37
I think we will see more, seeing as a failed cast means your caster can't cast for the rest of that magic phase, you're either going to have to start throwing 2 dice at every Inovcation, take a few more necromancers or risk failing the first or second etc. cast and losing your entire magic phase for that character.

Since a natural 1-2 still means insta-fail, even the new wizard level additions to casting won't help you, so back-up casters are going to be more of a requirement.

Yrrdead
25-06-2010, 19:54
Another point: the necromancer is your cheapest access to common magic items. If you want to pack that frog scroll or that scroll of 'cause wounds on caster', or something similar, the cheapest option to do that is taking a necromancer.

That actually is the best reason I've heard yet for taking a necromancer. I'll give it a go this weekend. Thanks.

DrMabutu
25-06-2010, 20:52
Im running three necromancers in my 2k vamp list. They work very well mostly because they are the only safe way to use the old one-dice-raising tactic. If one fails to cast invocation, simply move on to another necromancer. I wouldn't advise taking more than that as you still want your vampire characters and wight kings.

Darkangeldentist
25-06-2010, 21:33
I do see necromancers becoming rather more attractive choices. As has been mentioned the ability to have go for 1 dice casting because you've wizards to spare is extremely useful. A cast spell still requires you opponent to waste dice dispelling it and an unlucky roll could see your opponent suddenly lose their mage level buff to dispel rolls.

Another benefit of having many wizards is more chance for you to get extra dice for casting or dispelling. A couple of extra dice is a big deal whichever magic phase they turn up.

Necromancers are more reliable casters than before, allow you multiples of the same spell and grant access to a lot of the interesting new magic items without messing with their roll. The cheap cost is just a bonus.

Vampires will stay the staple hero choice for my armies to start with but in larger games I will be sorely tempted to take a couple of necromancers to give me vanhel's coverage and extra casting potential.

Tomalock
27-06-2010, 04:22
I run a single necro on a corpse cart with Danse and Invo behind my battle line. Having 2 ASF spells and being able to still raise is pretty nice for 145 points. Would a vampire for the same points be better? Maybe, but since corpse carts don't count towards the 25% core, its a nice way to get one in.

vega528
27-06-2010, 08:36
you guys can take this for what its worth since I don't have a high post count and no rumor credibility, but I have read the new book at my local GW and it does say that a natural 1 or 2 is a failure to dispel. It is easy to miss where it says it though, because unlike failure to cast, which is in bold print, failure to dispel is just a line at the end where it talks about dispelling.

With this in mind I feel that 2 or 3 necros would be best. They don't take up to many points, can reliably single die cast, and your opponent will have to use two dice or have a 33% chance of losing the bonus to dispelling from their caster.

minionboy
27-06-2010, 22:06
I think the strength in using necromancers is for 1 dice IoN spamming. If you roll a 1-2, you don't end up messing up your magic phase much. I would take 2 with no upgrades, only 110 points and let's you safely spam.

Sexiest_hero
27-06-2010, 22:12
Another benefit of having many wizards is more chance for you to get extra dice for casting or dispelling. A couple of extra dice is a big deal whichever magic phase they turn up.

this and a vamp lord with the +2 power dice power means that you can have at the least 4 pb. I think the ability to use a power stone or load up on bound items is a big bump for them.

Tomalock
28-06-2010, 00:21
I've found bound items to be underwhelming in the games I play. Having to cast them with power dice and not getting the wizard's power level to help makes them a choice only if I have power dice to burn usually (and have yet to run into that problem). The only exception to that is the corpse cart because an ASF bubble for a full game turn can really make a big difference and there is no downside to miscasting with it as it is an inate ability rather than a bound spell tied to an item. I had the bound Vanhel's Danse but dropped it after several games. Its more effective to cast it from the necromancer than have it as a bound item.

shortlegs
28-06-2010, 04:43
I'll still use the points for a necro with vanhels rather than the cart. While vanhels is more difficult to cast, it gives ASF and re-rolls to hit. Although it only targets a single unit, VC players should generally be focusing on single combats as much as possible, fighting on multiple fronts will just dilute your raising ability too much.

Just my honest opinion..

Vsurma
28-06-2010, 05:40
Im running three necromancers in my 2k vamp list. They work very well mostly because they are the only safe way to use the old one-dice-raising tactic. If one fails to cast invocation, simply move on to another necromancer. I wouldn't advise taking more than that as you still want your vampire characters and wight kings.

Is it worth it though?

Say you have 6 dice, you 1 dice on a 4+ to cast (I believe) meaning 3 of them succeed on rolls of 4,5,6

Alternatively you could have 2 diced them, granted your success rate overall is smaller, rather than an average of 3 casts you are down to 2.75 however the casts are on 2d6 rolls... much harder to dispel than your 4,5,6s.

Heck the opponent will be 1 dice dispelling your spells if you 1 dice them.

You get a 50% chance to succeed and their lv2 will have a better than 50% chance to 1 dice dispel.

You will be lucky to get 2 spells off a turn. I reckon you probably won't want to 1 dice cast until after your opponent is out of DD.

Scythe
28-06-2010, 05:44
I think I will be using Vanhells on my Necromancers as well. For 15 extra points, it adds a lot of flexibility to your magic phase, and a few certain Vanhell spells can help you plan a lot more efficiently. While it is more difficult to cast, it isn't that bad, as with the +1 to cast necromancers get from their magic level, they can reliably throw 2 dice at the spell, and still have a good chance of succeeding on the casting roll.

Vanhells will be desperately needed to surive the more brutal close combat phases and get some kills in I think.

shortlegs
28-06-2010, 06:26
Is it worth it though?

Say you have 6 dice, you 1 dice on a 4+ to cast (I believe) meaning 3 of them succeed on rolls of 4,5,6

Alternatively you could have 2 diced them, granted your success rate overall is smaller, rather than an average of 3 casts you are down to 2.75 however the casts are on 2d6 rolls... much harder to dispel than your 4,5,6s.

Heck the opponent will be 1 dice dispelling your spells if you 1 dice them.

You get a 50% chance to succeed and their lv2 will have a better than 50% chance to 1 dice dispel.

You will be lucky to get 2 spells off a turn. I reckon you probably won't want to 1 dice cast until after your opponent is out of DD.
Well, it's actually 3+ to cast since the necros get +1 from their magic level.

Whether to cast invoc on 1 die or 2 depends on what your opponents have. If I'm facing only a lvl 2 opponent, I'll probably roll 2 dice, as to really reliably stop my spell he may have to roll 3 dice. But if I'm facing a lvl4, I'll go 1 die spam. Rolling 2 dice is disadvantageous in view of his bonus to dispel, and if my single die castings go through, he will still likely waste 2 dice to dispel to minimise rolling a natural 1 or 2 and neutering his lvl4 for the rest of the phase.

Tomalock
28-06-2010, 06:56
I'm not saying don't take vanhel's, but its on for a single round of combat. On their turn you are hosed. Atleast with a corpse cart you have it for a full game turn. In 7th it might have been enough to win you combat on your turn but VC just don't have the sheer destructive power to tear through a good sized unit in a single round outside of a BK deathstar. A vanhel's necro is nice(I run one myself), but I'd rather have him on a corpse cart for the redundency.

Vsurma
28-06-2010, 07:33
Well, it's actually 3+ to cast since the necros get +1 from their magic level.

Whether to cast invoc on 1 die or 2 depends on what your opponents have. If I'm facing only a lvl 2 opponent, I'll probably roll 2 dice, as to really reliably stop my spell he may have to roll 3 dice. But if I'm facing a lvl4, I'll go 1 die spam. Rolling 2 dice is disadvantageous in view of his bonus to dispel, and if my single die castings go through, he will still likely waste 2 dice to dispel to minimise rolling a natural 1 or 2 and neutering his lvl4 for the rest of the phase.

Well, assuming he didn't spend an extra 100pts for a 2nd wizard at lv2. In which case he can dispel your 1 dice casts with the lv2. At least I would.
Though depending on your list you will likely have more mages than the enemy so yea it might work to just try and get the enemy to fail dispels.

shortlegs
28-06-2010, 07:45
Well, assuming he didn't spend an extra 100pts for a 2nd wizard at lv2. In which case he can dispel your 1 dice casts with the lv2. At least I would.
Though depending on your list you will likely have more mages than the enemy so yea it might work to just try and get the enemy to fail dispels.
Against multiple opposing wizards, then I'll be casting 2-dice invocs from my lord rather than necros... ;) His lvl4 will probably still need 3 dice to reliably stop me, netting me a dice advantage.

shortlegs
28-06-2010, 07:50
I'm not saying don't take vanhel's, but its on for a single round of combat. On their turn you are hosed. Atleast with a corpse cart you have it for a full game turn. In 7th it might have been enough to win you combat on your turn but VC just don't have the sheer destructive power to tear through a good sized unit in a single round outside of a BK deathstar. A vanhel's necro is nice(I run one myself), but I'd rather have him on a corpse cart for the redundency.
Good point, although I still doubt the usefulness of ASF, unless the units in combat are all depleted and ASF allows you to attack when otherwise you would have died first..

Besides orcs and saurus, are there any other regularly seen units with initiative 1 or 2? ASF ghouls against these guys would be nice.. :evilgrin:

Scythe
28-06-2010, 09:43
Good point, although I still doubt the usefulness of ASF, unless the units in combat are all depleted and ASF allows you to attack when otherwise you would have died first..

Besides orcs and saurus, are there any other regularly seen units with initiative 1 or 2? ASF ghouls against these guys would be nice.. :evilgrin:

It's not the ASF you are interested in from Vanhells, it is the reroll to hit. With undeath WS generally being quite low (unless boosted by the helm), the reroll can make a big difference.

shortlegs
28-06-2010, 11:07
Of course, which was why I said I preferred a necro with vanhels compared to the corpse cart in my original post.

I was just acknowledging Tomalock's point about the ASF from the cart lasting a full game turn compared to a vanhel's, which, if used on ghouls against troops with lower initiative (albeit not common), works just as well as vanhels for twice as long.

Scythe
28-06-2010, 11:23
True, though, as you said, the amount of troops with lower I are limited, but not unheard of. Besides Orks and Saurus, there are Dwarfs (I2), common Goblins (I2), Ogres (I2 if I recall correctly) and Trolls (I1), Skeletons and Zombies (naturally), and a couple of monsters. It is mainly dependant on army, though; against Elves, Humans, Skaven and Chaos, don't expect much.

Tomalock
28-06-2010, 16:47
I could be wrong, but it was my understanding that it was lower than or equal to for the reroll with ASF. There are lots of I3 units out there. If I am wrong then yes that is true, for the reroll purpose Vanhel is definatly better.

However, this is why I run Light on my Lord. There are two really good spells that can be given to every unit within 12" of him. One makes all units WS10 and I10. The other gives every unit 1 extra attack, doubles their movement, and gives them ASF. The 2nd one is very expensive for the every unit within 12", but the first is really good with a corpse cart. Just something to think about. I take light for those 2 spells specifically.

Scythe
29-06-2010, 05:49
There are lots of I3 units out there.


Surprisingly, not that many. Humans and Beastmen (I think. could be that some Beastmen are I4, not sure...) primary, but all kinds of elves, chaos, skaven, skinks etc are above. Combined with the I2/I1 group, it is a lot though ;)

But good thinking on the Lore of Light (strange as it might be for undead to use that lore :p); boosting spells are very usefull for undead infantry. I am kind of considering wether I will use Forbidden Lore on my lord or hero level vampire though (or both). The hero gets more spells out of it compared to his normal ones, but the lord has a nice casting bonus...

NitrosOkay
29-06-2010, 06:23
Surprisingly, not that many. Humans and Beastmen (I think. could be that some Beastmen are I4, not sure...) primary, but all kinds of elves, chaos, skaven, skinks etc are above. Combined with the I2/I1 group, it is a lot though ;)

But good thinking on the Lore of Light (strange as it might be for undead to use that lore :p); boosting spells are very usefull for undead infantry. I am kind of considering wether I will use Forbidden Lore on my lord or hero level vampire though (or both). The hero gets more spells out of it compared to his normal ones, but the lord has a nice casting bonus...

I'm looking at my Vampire Army Book at the Forbidden Lore entry and it says specifically "any one of the lores in the Warhammer Rulebook (except Lore of Life!"

Scythe
29-06-2010, 06:37
I'm looking at my Vampire Army Book at the Forbidden Lore entry and it says specifically "any one of the lores in the Warhammer Rulebook (except Lore of Life!"

Yes, but he is talking about the Lore of Light, not the Lore of Life. Lore of Light is a valid choice, and not even a bad one, as has been shown. Despite being the Lore which is basically used to banish daemons and undeath, Lore of Light is a perfectly valid choice for your Forbidden Lore vampire.

NitrosOkay
29-06-2010, 06:39
Yes, but he is talking about the Lore of Light, not the Lore of Life. Lore of Light is a valid choice, and not even a bad one, as has been shown. Despite being the Lore which is basically used to banish daemons and undeath, Lore of Light is a perfectly valid choice for your Forbidden Lore vampire.

Ah my bad.

artisturn
30-06-2010, 18:57
Speed of Light: Unit Buff. Choose one unit within 24". It has Weapon Skill 10 and Initiative 10.

with unit buff spells like this I can see a lot of armies using the lore of light.

Another lore I have my eyes on is Heavens, I face a lot of heavy shooting armies so this spell will come in handy

Basic Spell: Ice shard Blizzard. Hex. Anything that uses a BS to shoot has a -1 to hit modifier. Anything that doesn't use BS can only shoot on 4+.

and this spell sounds fun as well

Wind Blast. Direct Damage. The enemy unit is pushed back D3+1" directly away from the wizard. If the unit hits any terrain it takes D6 S 3 hits. If the unit hits another unit both units take D6 S 3 hits. The scaled up version pushes units back D6+2".

Or you could adapt an old fashion bully tactic by raising some zombies behind the unit and use wind to push them into the Zombies.

Now with Necromancers being exempt from the spell duplication rule they can handle the army maintenance spells while vampires access the new lores through Forbidden Lore.
Before I would only give this power to a lord level vampire but now that any wizard can throw up to six dice makes this worth it on a hero level vampire as well . (haven't seen the book just going by forum chatter so please correct me if I am wrong)

grumbaki
30-06-2010, 19:24
They sound great to me. lvl 1 wizards, so on a 3+ they get off invocation, and on a 1-2 they have to stop. Example:

lvl 4 vampire lord with lore of shadows/death/whatever and +2 PD
3 necromancers
whatever else you want

So, turn 1 you roll a 4 and a 3 for dice. You get 9PD and the enemy gets 3DD. You've got 3 necromancers, and each has a 66% chance to successfully casting invocation. So you can rely on 2/3 getting off 1 invocation at first. The enemy only has 3 DD, does he really want to waste it when you can use the vampire to get off the bigger spells? Just looking at the odds, they seem like great batteries for a VC player, and it lets him use a vampire or two to use the new lores or to cast more active spells. And best of all, they are really cheap. While I am no expert, I can see them being a new staple for keeping the undead legions moving, which is great, because in the fluff it is much more likely to have 1-2 vampires with necromancer underlings than a horde of vampires.

Tomalock
30-06-2010, 22:12
Only minor thing is they get 4 Dispell dice. On 2D6 the dispelling player gets the higher of the two.