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Artemis360
25-06-2010, 01:27
I can't seem to come to an agreement with a friend of mine about the definition of a power gamer. The LGS we play at is a pretty small community and isn't really in contact with the global 40k opinion. So what do you guys think?

Sub question: How bad do you think it is to be a power gamer? To me it means you're the scum of the Earth but my friend believes it just means you're a bit of a tough opponent.

Putty
25-06-2010, 01:33
a gamer version of power rangers

obsequiousmelon
25-06-2010, 01:56
Dude that isnt quite what i said... i said a power gamer is someone who makes army choices based solely on how combat effective they are on the table. Our Nurgle armies for example... i take mark of nurgle on my terminators because it sticks with my armies theme, you dont because you think it is a waste and would rather have one more terminator.
A power gamer is someone that makes army choices based on math hammer and not because he really loves that model or because he thinks the idea is cool.
A power gamer is not neccessarily a douche! (Except maybe in swedish's case lol) ;)

Fideru
25-06-2010, 02:00
Terrible, terrible WAAC people. That's my interpretation.

Lordmonkey
25-06-2010, 02:09
a gamer version of power rangers

Oh, man, you are awesome. You made me lol for a full 30s straight there dude :D

I would choose option 1/A/uno. WAAC is the definition because a power gamer plays to win.

Xyrex
25-06-2010, 02:10
These are the people who I would call "noobs" if i met them in a video game, because they will use the cheapest, most overpowered, most stupid things to try to win.

Scribe of Khorne
25-06-2010, 02:19
These are the people who I would call "noobs" if i met them in a video game, because they will use the cheapest, most overpowered, most stupid things to try to win.

Goes the other way actually. A noob is someone who doesnt know how to use/about the cheapest, most over powered, most stupid things to help them win.

A power gamer is simply someone for who winning is the priority. This does not mean fluff, and fun count for nothing and is different imo from a WAAC player.

Power gaming is simply gaming with a focus on winning, people who dislike power gamers are usually people who like to build false limitations and rules into a game because they want the game to be played their way, and not the way it can be played.

DDogwood
25-06-2010, 02:20
I agree with obsequieousmelon's definition. Being a powergamer isn't neccesarily good or bad, it's just a different way of approaching the game. Many powergamer types are jerks, but so are many "fluff gamers" - you know, the types who get upset if your army includes both Khorne and Tzeentch stuff.

I tend to approach the game from an aesthetic viewpoint - I take models because they look cool, not necessarily because of their effectiveness or their background, but that doesn't mean that my approach is right or that another approach is wrong.

Xyrex
25-06-2010, 02:23
@scribe of khorn.

REALLY? You don't play many online games do you? Noob can mean both, but I was using it as in "wow he's a fricken noob tuber", "fricken heartbeat sensor noob" or "rpg (NOT SPAM :mad:)noob"

obsequiousmelon
25-06-2010, 02:26
oh and if you voted number three then you are a power gamer!

Lordmonkey
25-06-2010, 02:53
Power gaming is simply gaming with a focus on winning, people who dislike power gamers are usually people who like to build false limitations and rules into a game because they want the game to be played their way, and not the way it can be played.

It's an interesting point you make here. I myself have an Eldar army where I refuse to use Wraithlords/Wraithguard because I feel they don't fit the theme, despite the obvious uses they have and how often an army consisting of mainly these units is hard to beat. So I agree that there are people that do this.

However, i would never want my opponent to play the game 'my way' because what is the point in that? I want my opponent to bring his/her own innovation, ideas and strategies to the table. However, if they want to bring cookie-cutter lists from the internet then they get no respect from me. We all know IG leafblower/Eldar Jetbike Seer Council/etc... is powerful - why bother playing it if the list wins for you instead of the person using it?

I like it when my opponents come up with clever/sneaky/innovative combinations to defeat me. That doesn't mean I can't take on a power list with my 'gimped' list, it's merely less fun to do so win or lose.

Defeats the object of spending so much time painting miniatures in my opinion...

Axeman1n
25-06-2010, 03:09
Power gamers are just gamers who spend the time to learn how to play and build lists that work. I've run into plenty of players who just don't care to learn the rules. They put armies together that they like their look, or feel. The little stuff about which guns go best don't bother them. It would never occur to them to do a last second objective grab, or castle, or turtle. They don't care for tactics.
I'd consider another term to be "Hard Core" player. Most people on this forum are Hard Core. They game to win and know the rules backwards and forward. When they don't know the rule, they seek out the answer. Non power gamers are happy not knowing how your army works, power gamers must know.

Raven1
25-06-2010, 03:18
I would say Power Gamers go beyond choosing a good list and being competitive but having to win at all costs and only considering the most powerful build and all others as inferior or worthless

Coltaine
25-06-2010, 03:35
Power-Gamers are generally people with a mind for efficiency. I consider myself efficient when building a list, after much play-testing, i have come to admire certain units and the role they fullfil. Im niether a jerk, nor a noob. I know the difference between a fluff list/a gimp list/an efficient list. There is nothing wrong with anyones list. People have different perceptions on how the game should be played, and efficient people tend to get lumped as Power-gamers, and usually its meant as degrading. Get over it, and accept people play different.

Zingbaby
25-06-2010, 04:13
I would say Power Gamers go beyond choosing a good list and being competitive but having to win at all costs and only considering the most powerful build and all others as inferior or worthless

I'm of the same opinion here. I've always felt that there was a line that most folks didn't cross (unless they were jerks) regardless of the venue, be it tournaments and/or basement.

I think now though, thanks to the immediate spread of information on the net we do see a lot of 'power gaming lists' spread awful fast.

He is of course not entirely to blame, but for sure Darkwynn from BOLS pretty much told every newb on the net that its 'ok to cross that line', very publicly with his leaf blower list; intentional or not. And BOLS being probably the most popular 40k blog around, unfortunately influenced the newbish masses to follow suit.

tuebor
25-06-2010, 04:30
To me a power gamer is someone who goes far above and beyond just wanting to win.

For example, I know a guy who, when I met him, was playing the old Armageddon rules Black Templars, which were rather broken. When Black Templars got their Codex in 4th edition he dropped them and decided that his Marines (which he still hasn't painted or converted in any way in the 6 years I've known him) were Blood Angels. When they got their PDF list he decided his Marines were Codex Marines and used the double special weapon trait with the "no allies" drawback. After Marines got their new Codex he stopped playing for a while, although he did use the Chaos book for a bit, and really didn't play much until the new Wolves came out, which his Marines currently are, although he did consider switching them to Blood Angels until he decided they were "garbage" compared to Space Wolves.

I consider that guy a power gamer. I don't know that I've met anyone else who I'd really consider a power gamer apart from some guys I played in tournaments who tried very, very hard to cheat if things weren't going their way.

RobPro
25-06-2010, 04:34
i think a power gamer is someone who rages when they lose games. I tend to have fun when playing, whether I am winning or losing. If I get stomped, I ask my opponent what I should have done differently. If I win, and my opponent asks what I think they should have done, I'll tell them. It's how you get better at the hobby, and no amount of mathhammer or codex-reading-theory can counter actually playing games and seeing models on the table.

I personally don't like to play "boring" lists to the table. I don't play a list to "see what it's like" to have 100 Necron Warriors on the table, all mine are geared towards being able to win through different sets of tactics. Some people at my local store complain I'm a dbag-power-gamer, others think I'm a pretty decent guy who likes to have fun at the table. It's all relative to who you play with and the atmosphere you play in.

Axis
25-06-2010, 04:51
I think a power gamer is someone who plays to win. That is, they emphasise the gaming part of the hobby most. I don't class them as Win At All Costs (though many do this). You can powergame without resorting to cheating or other shenanigans.

Powergamers tend to play with strong armies that are quite optimised and they do tend to win a lot. However, there are people who i would class as powergamers who also painted their army nicely or have a nice theme or even run a weaker list (that they use very well). These rare hobbiests are far outweighed by those who deliberately cheese it up and use dodgy (to be distinguished from clever or canny) tactics.

Brettila
25-06-2010, 04:52
I have seen numerous interesting, and valid, points made here. I have been playing 40K for 15 long years now. (Please understand that what follows is merely for context, and is NOT bragging.) I win far more than my share of games. I have played quite a few different armies over the years, currently playing 2 "second tier" 4th edition armies. I have never lost a tournament game. However, to me half the fun is building and painting the minis. I build armies weeks in advance, before I ever know who my opponent might be; just to try out combinations. Power gamers have a deep-seated need, born of insecurity, that forces them to want to win regardless of what may come from their behavior. They build/seek out 'power' lists, like the Leafblower; and generally are the most unentertaining people to sit across a table from. You all have played them. They complain when behind, they belittle when ahead, they NEVER let you do something like move a unit you forgot, even though you just let them do the very same, etc. They will then resort to accusations of cheating or, "That is not how ANYONE plays it where I'm from!" It is because of people like this that I stopped playing in tournaments, and harbor real fears for the future of our hobby. If enough people keep it up we will run out of new people willing to take up such an expensive hobby. So, after a somewhat long (and hopefully articulate) post, my advice the next time you find yourself across the table from such a player: Bean 'em right in the naughty bits with your tape measure! You'll feel better, and the world's karma will tilt slightly to the positive.

Zingbaby
25-06-2010, 05:11
Brettila you'd like my game group. :) ...I totally agree with what you are saying here. That "line of integrity" has been crossed.

Mr. Havok
25-06-2010, 05:15
Basically anyone who takes a list as beardy as my Death Guard and does any or all of the following:
Is convinced that he wins NOT because of his Jetlocks, Grimnarwing, Mephiston, etc...and believes he wins because of his skill.
Gets pissed when he loses.
Calls anything else cheesy.

Pisses me off....
Greetz.
Mr. Havok out.

Gambles
25-06-2010, 05:19
The minute a new edition or errata gave a statistical or numerical advantage to a certain army, the power gamer would build it. A true power gamer would also grind out the time needed to paint the new army better than yours as well, and beat you at everything.

jspyd3rx
25-06-2010, 05:27
oh and if you voted number three then you are a power gamer!

Hehe, I did. Though our Miami group simply calls it tourny minded play. Alot of you guys would just cry at some of the list that pop up here. We all do it though. Our lists for fun are actually, usually the most cheesiest, beardy ones. We all enjoy it and have a lot of fun though playing each other. Hell, I brought my 48 ork warbike list and got tabled top of second round against Space Wolves. Though i had been doing it to others with same list. We relish the challenge everyone brings and it only makes you stronger. My first tourny a year ago I got third with Necrons after only two months playing. I learned hard and fast how to play them effectively.

blurrymadness
25-06-2010, 05:40
Power gamers are just gamers who spend the time to learn how to play and build lists that work. I've run into plenty of players who just don't care to learn the rules. They put armies together that they like their look, or feel. The little stuff about which guns go best don't bother them. It would never occur to them to do a last second objective grab, or castle, or turtle. They don't care for tactics.
I'd consider another term to be "Hard Core" player. Most people on this forum are Hard Core. They game to win and know the rules backwards and forward. When they don't know the rule, they seek out the answer. Non power gamers are happy not knowing how your army works, power gamers must know.

meh, I think you're being too kind.

I play to win (though I have a good time either way), I play by statistics, know the rules in and out, but I purposely move to use odd tactics and such or odd units. I even un-cheese lists or build them understanding the power at times. I still move to pwn&bwn, but I also understand that certain things are just plain "too good" for the points and move to not use them most of the time ;)

Garven Dreis
25-06-2010, 05:48
Honestly, I like having a fluffy army, and I'm not really against people using 'leafblower' or powerful lists. I'd classify 'power gamers' and those giant ********** who act like they are the most skilled general for using an army of Nob Bikers. Or finding loopholes in rules.

EDIT: Also, people who do the above AND THEN COMPLAIN about my Fellblade in Spearhead. Goddamn guys, throw me a bone. Or complain about everthing being OP when your TH/SS Termi's get vaped.

jspyd3rx
25-06-2010, 06:12
I will never complain. I say bring it. No one goes undefeated and relish the best list you can bring. Personally I win as much as I lose. At least we have plenty of people to play down here though. Better some than none.

Wade Wilson
25-06-2010, 10:11
Power gamers have a deep-seated need, born of insecurity, that forces them to want to win regardless of what may come from their behavior. They build/seek out 'power' lists, like the Leafblower; and generally are the most unentertaining people to sit across a table from. You all have played them. They complain when behind, they belittle when ahead, they NEVER let you do something like move a unit you forgot, even though you just let them do the very same, etc. They will then resort to accusations of cheating or, "That is not how ANYONE plays it where I'm from!" It is because of people like this that I stopped playing in tournaments, and harbor real fears for the future of our hobby. If enough people keep it up we will run out of new people willing to take up such an expensive hobby.

I dont know about 'power gamers' but i totaly agree that there is the occasional jackass who we have all probably played once or twice like this.

I ant remember who it is but a regular poster here has the sig: "the aim of the game is to win, the point of the game is to have fun."

Couldnt agree more.

Lord Damocles
25-06-2010, 10:32
To add context, I'd consider myself a 'Power Gamer', and I'm proud of it!
(And for the record, I didn't vote for any of the poll options)



Someone who absolutely must win at all costs. There is no such thing as 'too cheesy' for this person
Who's to judge what's 'cheesy'?
Or what's 'too cheesy' for that matter?

I've had my Harlequin army* described as 'cheesy' by players who have just been beaten by it, and called 'weak and pointless' by those who have just trampled all over it. Both cannot be true surely?


I'd also make a justification between a 'Power Gamer' and a 'WAAC Gamer'. A Power Gamer shouldn't need to bend the rules/be a douche etc. to win a game (in fact nobody should feel the need to do this).



An all-round hobbyist, but one who builds lists that are effective rather than just fluffy or cool.
Why can't an effective list be 'fluffy' or 'cool'?

Who's to judge what's considered 'fluffy' or 'cool'?

Frankly, in my experience those people who decry 'Power Gamers', and claim that they're somehow 'better' gamers because they took a 'fluffy' or 'fun' list tend to be those who just aren't as good at playing the game, or have a weak[er] list and seem to be trying to find some way of justifying their defeats without placing any of the blame on/with themselves.



There's no such thing as a power gamer, just different levels of competitiveness and ********.
The very fact that it's being discussed means that there must be such a thing as a 'Power Gamer'.

Although there are differing levels of competeiveness and ******** - but this is true for everything in life.


--------------------

So what would be my definition of a Power Gamer?


Power Gamer - (Noun) A player who does their best to win the game in question.


And that's it. After all, it's Power Gamer, not Power List Builder or Power Rules Bender.
To me the term has nothing to do with the list in question (I'll try just as hard to win the game whether I'm using my Harlequins or my mech Guard or my Necrons).
It has nothing to do with how rules are interpreted (that's a discussion for a whole other thread :p).
It has nothing to do with social skills or manner (or lack thereof...)


*Yriel, 3x10 Harlies, 2x10 Storm Guardians, 2 Vypers, 2 Wraithlords

Nuage
25-06-2010, 10:53
To add to what Lord Damocles says...

I consider myself a power gamer. That means that I actually play to win the game. When I'll build my list, I'll try to do my best. When I play, I try to think and use the best tactics, regardless of what people think, in order to win.

That does not mean that I'll be a jerk about rules, belittle my opponents, or do anything I would not like my fellow players do to me.

I consider myself lucky to play in a group of same minded people.
We are the kind of guys who won't be afraid of bringing a nidzilla to a friendly game (and pre 5th ed nidzilla in 1500 pts was quite hard), or a mech IG, or a SM Vulkan Raider. And we're all having a blast when we play.

I nearly joined an another gaming group, a couple weeks ago. They were just starting a new campaign, and I thought that would be a very good way to start.
But I didn't. To play in the campaign, you had to send your (fixed) list beforehand to the manager, and he would the review it, and tell you if you can play or not. I've seen Tyranid list refused because they had one unit of Zoanthropes, and two units of Hive Guard. Well, ok. I'm there to play Warhammer 40K, not some other game based on 40K and with a ton of imaginary restrictions.

Playing to win, and building optimized list (and even tailored list, if we know who we'll be playing) does not mean playing is not fun, scenarised, or fluffy. It can be all of that.
For example, say, you want to play a pure SMC Khorne list. Who's to stay you can't use Plague Marines units ? Either do some background work, to justify the Death Guards units; or better yet, do some conversion work, to have some bulky and hard Khorne units, and play them as count as Death Guard...

On a related note, I encourage the reading of that article: http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.html

It's not exactly on power gaming - it is about the gaming mentality of playing to win. It's not about 40K, either, but about Street Fighter - but the concept stays the same.

Nuage.

Grimtuff
25-06-2010, 10:55
I think a power gamer is someone who plays to win. That is, they emphasise the gaming part of the hobby most. I don't class them as Win At All Costs (though many do this). You can powergame without resorting to cheating or other shenanigans.


Not this again! :rolleyes:

Read my sig then see where you went wrong with this statment. Everyone plays to win, no-one goes into a game thinking "i'm gunning for a loss here!".

What you mean to say is a Powergamer is someone who does confuse the quote below and does so at the expense of their opponent having fun. ;)

Wishing
25-06-2010, 11:06
Power gamers are just gamers who spend the time to learn how to play and build lists that work. I've run into plenty of players who just don't care to learn the rules. They put armies together that they like their look, or feel. The little stuff about which guns go best don't bother them. It would never occur to them to do a last second objective grab, or castle, or turtle. They don't care for tactics.
I'd consider another term to be "Hard Core" player. Most people on this forum are Hard Core. They game to win and know the rules backwards and forward. When they don't know the rule, they seek out the answer. Non power gamers are happy not knowing how your army works, power gamers must know.


I like this description, though I don't think it captures the negative associations most people have with the term 'power gamer'. Being very focused on rules and building strong competitive armies just makes you a competitive gamer in my book. To deserve the term power gamer, I think a player has to also have no sense of cooperation with their opponent (ie. they don't care if their opponent has fun or not), and are smug about winning and get bitchy if they lose rather than just enjoying the competition.

Badger[Fr]
25-06-2010, 11:22
For each actual WAAC douche, there are at least ten sore losers who can't handle a loss and will instead spend the whole game moaning about their opponent's "broken army". It's almost like they'd rather whine than play the game.

Hunger
25-06-2010, 11:46
Easy enough to define, "power gamer" to me describes a player that puts winning the game above the other aspects of the hobby.

For example, when building a list the power gamer will choose units based on their effectiveness over other considerations. The fact that, based on fluff, two mighty Daemon Princes would be unlikely to lead such a tiny force is irrelevant - the codex allows it, so its ok. Similarly, Plague Marines are typically described as fighting on foot in the background, but this fact has no bearing on the power gamer, who will mount them all in Rhinos because it suits his battle plan.

In contrast to the above, I don't worry too much about whether a particular unit is terribly effective, for me its more important that the force roughly fits the background. I take platoons of footslogging infantry, artillery batteries, Deathstrikes, Ogryns and other stuff because I like them and because I might wish to stick to a theme for my force. I will take a mix of equipment, giving some models a power sword, others a plasma pistol etc, to give them each a bit of personality, rather than spamming the same optimum combination across many units.

The player's attitude to the game helps to define it too - if a situation arises in which there is no obvious answer, or an answer exists but neither player can remember it, the power gamer will argue the case in his favour and take time out of the game to search through the relevant books to solve the situation. I myself would rather simply invent the outcome of the situation by coming to a mutual agreement with the othe player for entertainments sake, or roll a D6 on it - the former is almost impossible with a power gamer because they will inevitably seek to gain an advantage in the outcome, and the latter is unlikely at best because 'why should I leave it to chance and run the risk of my opponent getting his way?'

There are different degrees of power gaming - at best the player just seeks to win the game and does his utmost to increase his chances by taking the best troops, learning the rules as best as he can and pressing for advantage, but at worst this attitude encourages boring copy+paste lists, rules lawyering and bending, dirty game-breaking tricks and sometimes outright cheating.


;4764116']For each actual WAAC douche, there are at least ten sore losers who can't handle a loss and will instead spend the whole game moaning about their opponent's "broken army". It's almost like they'd rather whine than play the game.

I think this statement describes power gamers who are not very good at power gaming. If being at the top of the pile is all-important, its necessary to have a reason, other than your own inferior generalship, to give everyone when you get beaten at your own game.

I get the impression that to some players the word 'tactic' means 'dirty trick your opponent can't prepare for', and the word 'strategy' means 'the most powerful army list'. Also, the concept of a 'clever battle plan' translates as 'point the army at the opponent and the uber-list will do all the work'. The problem comes when they meet someone else with a better 'strategy', and more 'tactics', and who has defeated more opponents with their 'battle plan'.

Lord Damocles
25-06-2010, 12:02
if a situation arises in which there is no obvious answer, or an answer exists but neither player can remember it, the power gamer will argue the case in his favour and take time out of the game to search through the relevant books to solve the situation.
This is something I've never quite understood.

Why is an attempt to get rules correct so often interpreted/presented as being a negative (whichever player might be aided?)

It so often seems that if one player doesn't agree to just 'dice for it'* they're portrayed as being the evil WAAC power gamer who doesn't know how to have fun and likes to kick puppies.



*As an asside, more than once I've witnessed the 'dice for it - it's more fun that way' arguement used by less scrupulous players (in no way suggesting that Hunger might do this, I should make it clear) effectively to get a 'On a 4+ I can cheat' roll...

Zweischneid
25-06-2010, 12:35
A gamer that ignores armour...
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... sorry, couldn't resist! :D

Kurisu313
25-06-2010, 12:36
To me it means you're the scum of the Earth

Internet hyperbole makes me cry.

Seriously, are people not allowed to have different interests or reasons for doing things?

I think I do what most people do - I write a list that I want, using the units that I want to use, then try my best to win with them on the battlefield.

Now, most of us don't choose units simply because they're powerful, we might use them because they're cool, or because they are weak - what better way to prove your skill?

But who doesn't play to win? I'm all for letting things go here and there, and I laughed heartily when my Leman Russ Exterminator with Archeotech ammo blew itself up, but I'm trying to win the game.

It's a game of war and toy soldiers. How many generals weren't trying to win? I have a responsibility to preserve as many little plastic lives as possible.

If someone want to play the game by taking the most powerful units possible, then that's his call. That person is what I'd call a Power Gamer. You aren't forced to play him. He's not a bad person, he's playing for the reasons he considers fun. I've got a couple at my club. I choose not to play them.

The line for me is when my attempting to win begins to infringe on the fun of my opponent. I will use the rules to the fullest - that's what they're there for. I won't apologize for beating you, or for being lucky.* But if I'm being such an ass that my opponent isn't enjoying himself, then that's the sort of gamer I'd look down upon.

Anyone who thinks that being a rules-lawyer is bad is strange, quite frankly. Everyone should strive to know the rules inside and out. If everyone did this would be a much better game.

*Actually, I do apologize for being lucky, it's painful sometimes.

Axeman1n
25-06-2010, 12:39
Like when my normal opponent makes 2/3 of this 5+ invul saves on his daemonettes, then proceeds to roll a dozen rending wounds?

Hunger
25-06-2010, 13:02
Sorry, perhaps I was not clear:

When a confusing situation arises the first thing to do is check the rulebook, codex or whatever. If the answer presents itself, problem solved.

If the answer doesn't present itself, then it may be a case that the rule is ambiguous (quite likely), or there is some conflict with another rule (irresistible force versus immovable object).

In this case there are three possible outcomes:

1) Roll a D6 for it - simple, as it can provide a fluffy solution (my magic sword beats your psychic shield this time, but next time it may go the other way), is quick, and can be a laugh when something improbable happens.

2) You suggest what might happen, you opponent gives his suggestion, you either go with the 'coolest' outcome, or a compromise that you're both happy with. You could also use another related situation as the precedent for what happens.

3) You go back to the rulebook/codex and reread the section again and again, then you ask someone else. You opponent is not giving any ground, so you have to justify your own point of view. You both scratch your heads and think of other rules sources, then you think of stuff you have read on Warseer, the way your friends have played it in the past, comments made by staff members and everything else you can think of.

In my experience most players will tend toward the 3rd option, because to concede to your opponent's point of view suggests to everyone else that your knowledge is inadequate, and to admit defeat would be a blow to your macho pride and ego. Often the problem can perhaps be solved by coming to a grudging compromise that hangs like a black cloud over the rest of the game and sours the moods of both players, or the point can be argued until the rest of the game is meaningless, and one player possibly packs up.

Now the D6 option is pretty good, and on the surface it appears to be a fair way to resolve any situation, but you're quite right to point out, Damocles, that its not always as fair as a simple 50% chance. One player might secretly know the other is wrong but is seeking to gain an unfair advantage, so he pushes for the 4+ chance to cheat right under his opponents nose. It may be that the outcome as suggested by Player A will vastly benefit him if he gets his way, but Player B's solution is fairer to the pair of them, meaning Player B can't really win anyway. It may be one player's way of simply sidestepping a situation he wishes to avoid, or deliberately unbalance a close-fought game.

For these reasons, I believe that if the problem can't be resolved in less than 5 minutes of looking in the relevant books then the best way to resolve it is for both players to put forward a suggestion and either agree on one outcome, or quickly negotiate a compromise. If both players see it as an opportunity to get the game moving again, and not a situation they can twist to their advantage, then any imaginable problem can be solved without any hassle.

The players who can do this are always a pleasure to play against, but its sad that the phrase 'friendly mutual agreement' means nothing to the majority of players I have met, and I cannot count the number of games where I have either simply agreed with the other player's massive-advantage-in-their-favour solution, in the face of vehement protest, for the sake of keeping the game fluid, or have argued it to the hilt and hated the rest of the game for it.

This is a defining feature of the power gamer for me.

Fixer
25-06-2010, 13:09
*Actually, I do apologize for being lucky, it's painful sometimes.

Me too. I played against the Tau the other day and everything went wrong for them. 3 Railguns bouncing off a vindicator in open ground, 48 shots doing a sum total of 0 wounds. Even their successful Leadership tests, stupid battlesuits rolling snake eyes to stick in combat with Mephiston shielding him from plasma retribution.

It's one thing to win, it's another thing to know exactly why you have won. If you have a good grasp of the rules and knowledge of game balance you should know if you've beaten your opponent due to having a more powerful army and/or luck and it's only polite to be frank about it.

It's one thing to play a power army such as twin lash chaos. It's another thing to play a power army like twin lash chaos, then tell everyone that you play it because you love the theme and that it's perfectly balanced against your opponent's Necron army.

That's one of the differences between a normal competitive player and a WAAC player. A normal competitive player will play to win, but is interested in doing it within the bounds of the game and isn't willing to bend the rules to do so because it's the challenge that matters. A WAAC player just wants to win and will do whatever it takes to get there.

Real life Examples:
A rules query comes up. 3rd edition Eldar D-Cannon hits a Land raider with Smoke launchers. Smoke launchers say that the hits are always counted as glancing, D-Cannon rules say that all glancing hits are counted as penetrating. Though both sides have an equal argument Eldar player throws a hissing fit and says he wont play the game unless it's ruled his way.

Tau player when 3rd edition comes out. Uses old LOS rules to say that stealth suits (which cannot be targeted) block LOS to his entire army. Also sets up the entire table with terrain to suit his Crisis suits with lots of LOS blocking walls, even going so far to make a square of impassable terrain with open ground in the middle so that they can jump in and no-one can ever reach them.

Not a game I was personally in but at the UK GT one player time wasted half an hour of gameplay to get to the end of game time, as allowing his opponent his turn would have allowed him to move onto the objective and win.

Then you can throw in the generally jerk-ness of some players. Who will gladly accept you allowing them to move a unit they forgot in a phase, but will flatly deny you the same. Who will nano-measure every movement you make but be remarkably flexible in their own measurements, even going so far as to just move the units before you can check they are in range. Demanding any cocked successful rolls are rerolled, but leaving failed ones as they stand (and vice versa for their own). Conventiently forgetting rules that restrict actions they want to perform and then enforcing them when you want to do the same thing.

You can be a power gamer and play competitively without doing any of the above.

DaSpaceAsians
25-06-2010, 13:31
I've powergamers before. One actually admitted he was a powergamer, rules lawyer and told me if I played against him to be ready for an cheesy list. I played him. It was very fun and entertaining. He even gave me tips and advice for 40k. There was this other guy who pulled out a rather nasty list when I first played him. At the time, I wasn't very experienced and didn't know much about the Oblit/Lash/Plague Marine spam list. He practically blew the living daylights out of my army without me even understanding a thing and proceeded to brag about it afterwards.

In resume, there are different types of powergamers. Some are nice decent people and others are jerks.

Wade Wilson
25-06-2010, 13:42
Read my sig then see where you went wrong with this statment. Everyone plays to win, no-one goes into a game thinking "i'm gunning for a loss here!".
oh there we are! You are the person whos sig i mentioned in my post. Its a fantastic quote and exactly how I believe the game should be seen. thumbs up sirrah!

HRM
25-06-2010, 13:55
...One actually admitted he was a powergamer, rules lawyer and told me if I played against him to be ready for an cheesy list. I played him. It was very fun and entertaining. He even gave me tips and advice for 40k...

I actually love these players. Great way to improve. I compare it to my other hobby, guitar playing. Every so often I'll sit in with a guy that SMOKES me on guitar. I always learn something. Same with GW games - playing against a guy who comes at you hard as nails, but ISN'T a penis-breath about it, and is cheerful and entertaining, will gain you valuable experience.

gwarsh41
25-06-2010, 14:27
Power games are the ones who bring tourney lists to help the new guy learn the game. Then they whoop his butt and laugh about it. I hate those people.

lethlis
25-06-2010, 15:08
Power games are the ones who bring tourney lists to help the new guy learn the game. Then they whoop his butt and laugh about it. I hate those people.

Quick Rules lawyers have escaped, we need gamers with attitude dun dun dun dun GOGO POWER RANGERS BA NANANA. Wow the 80's were lame, seriously lame.

A power gamer or rather a WAAC player is someone who takes no interest in the other person having fun, or no consideration for the person they are playing. This could be at list building time or playing time.

Zweischneid
25-06-2010, 15:12
In resume, there are different types of powergamers. Some are nice decent people and others are jerks.

Amen.

Though I should mention this goes for the hobby-side people too.

There's really nice guys with well-build, nicely-painted and fleshed-out armies that are a treat to play. And there's the people who give you (if you let them) a 2-hour lashing because you've painted the squad-markings on your Doom-Eagle Devastators in the wrong colour-shade or failed to be aware of the finer historical details of the Alaitoc Craftworld in the 34th century.

Lord Damocles
25-06-2010, 15:21
Post
Ah, I see.

In that case, I actually agree with you :)

NotMyIfurita
25-06-2010, 15:36
I've never really had 'power gamer' tossed around as an insult.. or at least not a serious one. When someone wins most of his games, you play against him, so you can improve your own.

Knowing the rules makes you able to play the game correctly, and a desire to do that precludes any cheating. I truly cant fathom why someone would brag on winning a game they cheated at.. if you cheated you didnt play the game, you only played the player.

I've always felt that the game is to be played, and the models are to be painted and modeled. They don't have to be completely dependent on each other. Ikea makes some very nice display cases for the people who only care about the models. There are tons of people on the net that will read your fanfic if all you care about is fluff. And there are tournaments for people that just want to win. We should applaud Games Workshop for making a game where we can all find what we want, even if we can still find a ********* that likes it.

Hunger
25-06-2010, 16:39
Ah, I see.

In that case, I actually agree with you :)

I guess I could have condensed that wall-of-text into a far simpler statement:

Its important to know the rules, and to attempt to solve a problem in the way the rulebook says - thats not rules-lawyering, its just finding the answer.

However, the way in which a player tries to solve a problem that has no clear answer is often a good indicator (to me, at least) of his attitude to the game, and when combined with things like the 'cheesiness' of his list or his adherance to fluff its possible to broadly categorise that player.

Of course, its a spectrum, and sometimes there are conflicting elements that make it difficult to pigeon-hole a player - perhaps he is using a monstrously powerful list, but that list is themed and very fitting with the background?

Grand Master Raziel
25-06-2010, 17:35
Power gamers have a deep-seated need, born of insecurity, that forces them to want to win regardless of what may come from their behavior.

Hit the nail on the head with that. The badly-behaved ********** who make playing against them a chore are the ones who aren't real secure in their own abilities at the game, or who have some other failing in their life they compensate for by trying to be the winningest player around.

I really think there needs to be some distinction between players who are simply competitive and players who are miserable bastards. Being competitive is fine, as long as you can tone it down or rein it in when appropriate. If you're a vet playing against another vet, then it's appropriate to bring out your well-tweaked list and give your A game. If you're playing against a kid who's just started and is full of that newbie excitement for his models and the hobby, and you bring your tournament-tweaked list and crush him in two turns, you're being a douche. I used to be that kind of player, but that was born more from being the noob playing against more experienced players. When I realized I could reliably win games with an optimized list, I grew out of it, started monkeying around with different play styles, and as a result grew as a player.

This isn't to say I'm no longer competitive, only that I don't feel the need to manifest it in the list-building stage as much as I used to. To me, part of the fun of coming up with a new army list is to make it as effective as I can within the parameters of a certain theme. If that leaves me with a list that's less optimal than it would have been had competitiveness been my primary or only criteria for my selections, well, so be it. You learn by trying different things, and learn more from failures than from success. Besides, I'm a reasonably wily player, and I'm pretty confident in my ability to win with an optimized list. I might like to win every game, but I don't need to.

One more related thought: I think WAAC douchegamers actually do themselves a disservice by switching from list to list to list based on what the community perceives as being the best dex and best units. Players who stick with one list over a long period of time become good at using that list. If I had to bet money on game between a guy who's been playing a semi-fluffy list once a week every week for a year and a guy who's just pulled an uber-build off the internet yesterday and has never played the list before, I'd put my money on the guy who's experienced with his list. That guy is more likely to be able to reflexively make the right tactical choices based on what he's got and what his opponent is doing than the guy with the power list he's never played before.

DuskRaider
25-06-2010, 17:55
A power gamer is a person who ruins the hobby. End of discussion.

Creeping Dementia
25-06-2010, 18:39
I'm probably a powergamer, it depends on whos deffinition you use though.

I have 3 armies, enough models in each to get to around 2500-3000pts. So I have some flexability in builds, but I can't do every extreme build for my armies.

When I buy and initially build an army, I start off by building a very solid list as a guideline for purchasing. This means all the 'cores' of my armys are powerful. Am I a powergamer because I rarely buy bad units? Maybe.

When I play games, I have a few different lists to choose from, all of which are tough, and after games I analyze and make small changes to overall improve the list. And in a way, most of my games are playtests for some upcoming tournament. Powergamer? Maybe.

However, I also have fluff preferences I stick to as well. My Tau don't currently have any Kroot because I don't like the models or fluff. My Marine army is White Scars, all bikes and speeders. And my other army is Sisters, which are great, but extremely expen$ive, a bit of a sacrifice to have cool ornate models.

When I play new guys, I don't really change my lists, but I simplify my playstyle, and sort of narrate what both sides are doing and sort of assist them through the first few games.

I'm also OK with losing, as I learn more from losing than I do from winning. One of my focuses in games are to keep the fun going the whole time, whether I'm winning or losing. I don't 'call' a game when its obvious I'm losing badly, my opponent earned the win, I'll let him enjoy that last turn or two. I like winning, usually do, but by far the best games I've ever played have been extremely hard fought draws or come-from-behind minor wins.

All that being said, I don't handicap my lists or tactics to make some guy feel better about himself. I don't base my list choices on whether some squishy opponent thinks my units are 'mean'. The world is mean, get over it and adapt. I also don't see my opponents units choices as 'mean' or 'unfair' or 'cheesey/beardy'. If I get beaten bad, then there is obviously something I need to change or fix, either by list or tactical adjustments.

I can't stand it when certain players expect others to abide by their imaginary form of 'Comp', bleating the neverending cry of 'fairness', or being 'equal'. We all have the same rules, same point limits, same measuring system, etc. We all have equal opportunity, but that doesn't equate to equal outcome.

Anyway, I'm a Powergamer, I'm also a Hobbiest, and I enjoy playing the game no matter the outcome. Apparently I'm also a hobby-ruiner, whatever, I don't mind the label.

Nezalhualixtlan
25-06-2010, 18:40
I'd consider myself a power gamer. I play to win. I design my lists to be efficient and effective. I like the hobby aspect of the game and enjoy it, I like the fluff aspect of the game and enjoy it, but I like the strategic and tactical aspect of a competitive game more than anything else. I like nothing better than finding an opponent who will bring a hard as nails list, completely legal by the rules, and face off with the intent of bashing each others brains in and trying anything legal within the context of the rules to eek out the win, or the tie by the end, with them doing the same thing. I like nothing better than close, hard fought competitive games.

That said I'm fine playing "fluffy" games if you give me fair notice before hand so I can tone things down a bit, there's no fun in bashing someone's brains in because they just had a crappy list, its the competition that's fun, wiping someone on turn 3 isn't a part of that. I also tone things down if I know I'm going up against someone that's a beginner, take some handicaps to my list, and take a lot of extra time with them to help make sure they are getting rules right, allow them to do things they forgot, or take things back (to a degree, I don't let you go back if they game has progressed too far from the point in question), and will go out of my way to give them my list beforehand with enough time to generate a list to fight it specifically tailored for it if it's possible, and tell them to proxy anything they need. That's because for me the point is competition.

Again, it's not a whole lot of fun to crush someone who is disadvantaged for various reasons. And I do go easier on beginners, when that's the case, I'm far more interested in cultivating a new potential opponent who is going to play well and be fun to engage in competitive games, than anything else for the long term. That means I'm more than happy to discuss the mathhammer behind their decisions and try to help them learn when it's going to hurt me, and I do not try to influence them into doing things that would be beneficial to me because what's the point, I don't need that kind of advantage when I'm already operating with superior knowledge of how the game functions. Crushing someone like that isn't fun for me, but I'm also acutely aware it's not fun for them either and might make them just lose interest in the game.

But I'm also not here to just play make believe with little plastic soldiers, I want a close hard fought competitive game. Story line fluff games that are more about the RP aspect than anything else are fine, but again that's just not my normal operating mode, and I need advance warning if that's what you want.

I'm also one of the nicer opponents you'd probably meet. I don't gloat when I'm winning, which is a pretty frequent, and I sure as hell don't complain when I am losing. I'm scrupulous about maintaining a polite, pleasant, and friendly attitude, especially if I'm frustrated about something, and particularly when I am losing make sure to follow through to the end (giving my opponent all I can to try and beat them still along the way) but never will deny another player the satisfaction of grinding me down to a total wipe out if that's how it's going. I'm friendly, happy to talk about and laugh with you about various things in the game (including my own mistakes and bouts of bad luck). I like talking about how things are going in game like they're real for the models involved and sort of getting into the moment.

But, I don't really consider anything in the game to be "broken", just more of a challenge to figure out a way to over come it. I'm also aware that certain combinations are more powerful than others, I wouldn't be a sucessful power gamer if I didn't, but I don't begrudge other people their power combos either. I very much respect people who beat me, including in terms of out-designing my lists, to me the game starts with succesful list construction.

I'm also happy to let things slide to a certain degree. I'm more than happy to let you move and run all at once if it's helpful to you, I'm perfectly fine if you decide after having moved a bunch of your units that one movement was ill considered that became apparent after moving others and let you take it back and remove if you want. I'm happy to let you go back and move or shoot with things you might have forgotten if things haven't gone on too far. And I'm not a rules lawyer, though I do expect that the game rules will be followed, I don't try to devise ways to get undeserved advantage from manipulating GW's infamously poorly worded rules in order to operate outside the games intent.

I also take the time to photograph the game usually, and write up fluff-tastic battle reports based on how things went in game. I take the time to read and learn about the game universe, (lexicanum is one my more heavily visited websites online), talk about the in character and in universe fluff and take a lot of time and effort to make sure my models and things look really good from the hobby aspect (including reading up extensively on painting and modeling techniques to learn new tips and tricks). So I care about the fluff and hobby aspect of the game.

But I play for the competition, and I play to win, starting with list construction and following through to the end.

Does that make me a power gamer? I think so. Does it make me a bad person or competitor? No, I don't think so. If playing me would make you unhappy, we don't have to play. If you consider me the "scum of the earth" you probably aren't the kind of player I'd have fun with, nor the type of person I'd really much care to associate with. If you think I'm ruining the game, I'm happy to leave you to yours and go my merry way with other like-minded players.

There's multiple ways to play this game, and I'm aware not everyone has or enjoys the same style of play that I do. That's ok, and that's just fine. The most important thing you can do before the game is to talk to your potential opponents and make sure that you both have the same expectations for going forward. If they don't line up, either make the effort to make them line up, or move on to someone else. Play within the rules, and be pleasant and much of the discord between players goes away anyway.... because there's a major difference between being a ********* and being a competitive minded power gamer. There's never a call for being a poor sport, no matter how you play the game.

Nottheface!
25-06-2010, 19:01
I have seen numerous interesting, and valid, points made here. I have been playing 40K for 15 long years now. (Please understand that what follows is merely for context, and is NOT bragging.) I win far more than my share of games. I have played quite a few different armies over the years, currently playing 2 "second tier" 4th edition armies. I have never lost a tournament game. However, to me half the fun is building and painting the minis. I build armies weeks in advance, before I ever know who my opponent might be; just to try out combinations. Power gamers have a deep-seated need, born of insecurity, that forces them to want to win regardless of what may come from their behavior. They build/seek out 'power' lists, like the Leafblower; and generally are the most unentertaining people to sit across a table from. You all have played them. They complain when behind, they belittle when ahead, they NEVER let you do something like move a unit you forgot, even though you just let them do the very same, etc. They will then resort to accusations of cheating or, "That is not how ANYONE plays it where I'm from!" It is because of people like this that I stopped playing in tournaments, and harbor real fears for the future of our hobby. If enough people keep it up we will run out of new people willing to take up such an expensive hobby. So, after a somewhat long (and hopefully articulate) post, my advice the next time you find yourself across the table from such a player: Bean 'em right in the naughty bits with your tape measure! You'll feel better, and the world's karma will tilt slightly to the positive.

Quoted for truth. This is how I view power gamers, they are just not any fun to play with :shifty:

EDIT: This is only how I view them. There is probably a great deal of people who play to win without being total **********. Lets call these people... "Competitive players" :D That's my two cents.

Scribe of Khorne
25-06-2010, 19:07
@scribe of khorn.

REALLY? You don't play many online games do you? Noob can mean both, but I was using it as in "wow he's a fricken noob tuber", "fricken heartbeat sensor noob" or "rpg (NOT SPAM :mad:)noob"

I have played far more then I would even admit in decent company. I am/was a power gamer, and would maximize my keyboard/mouse/video settings to get any advantage possible. I could 'feel' the difference between 100 fps, and 125fps (if those numbers mean anything to you then perhaps you are a power gamer as well!), and would gladly play a game that looked like it was from the early 80s, if it meant I had the advantage.

There is a massive difference between a 'noob' who depends on a crutch to get by, and a player who utilizes the same crutch as the noob, but also has the skills to make even better use of it. The power gamer is the one who in a mirror match with the 'noob' comes out on top 9 out of 10 times.

My chaos world eater based list is effective. I would consider it 'power gaming' as I dont take units like possessed, or raptors, but its still mostly effective units, or atleast seems to be to me for example.

Winged DP
Berzerkers
Berzerkers
Lesser Daemons
Terminators
Vindicator
Vindicator

Rhinos and Landraiders as required, is my 1500 point list. Its fluffy enough, but its also very effective, and doesnt take the 'fun' units like possessed, or dreads. That said, if I found oblit's fit with my rapid army, I would take them as they can be effective, but they dont fit in with what I am trying to do.

I dont turn away from Lash Princes because they are not effective, but because they dont fit with my army choices/style of play.

Also, my gaming group is not WAAC, so I dont need to be either. :]

herostoaces
29-06-2010, 05:03
Any one who steps up to the table only to win. Power gamers are most easily picked out by their crying/bi'chin' when their juiced up army falls to you and your fluff filled army. You should want to win, but mainly go gaming to have fun and teach the next generation of gamers how fun your hobby is.

Lothlanathorian
29-06-2010, 06:41
A power gamer is someone who's goal is to win the game at the cost of fun.

Voss
29-06-2010, 06:52
I think a power gamer is someone who plays to win. That is, they emphasise the gaming part of the hobby most. I don't class them as Win At All Costs (though many do this). You can powergame without resorting to cheating or other shenanigans.

Powergamers tend to play with strong armies that are quite optimised and they do tend to win a lot. However, there are people who i would class as powergamers who also painted their army nicely or have a nice theme or even run a weaker list (that they use very well). These rare hobbiests are far outweighed by those who deliberately cheese it up and use dodgy (to be distinguished from clever or canny) tactics.

You can focus on the gaming aspect without playing to win, however. My local group here doesn't care two cents for background, most don't paint and some don't even cheese out their list. They play the game purely for the tabletop game, but most of them aren't by any means powergamers. The one that is, is a jerk. Still loses a lot, however.

igwarlord
29-06-2010, 09:21
I wonder if anyone would cal me a powergamer
I played IG before the new codex
i liked basilisks and the Armoured fist squads
so i got lots of Indirect fire and chimera squads
when the new codex came out i liked the manticore more so i converted 2 of my basilisks
now i get told i am using the leaf blower list (even though i don;t have the inquisitor)\
i used it long before the guy who made it popular

before i am called a powergamer please make note
i also have a DE army WITH mandrakes and talos
i have a WH army WITH repentia
and a SM army WITH all bikers (nothing else)

am i a powergamer?

the1stpip
29-06-2010, 09:35
A Powergamer is someone who uses all the best units, and often is someone who will use any rules to his advantage, often gorgetting to mention those rules that dont go his way.

Choosing the best units merely makes you a topurnament player.

Axeman1n
29-06-2010, 11:00
So is there a difference between a Power Gamer and a WAAC player? I see a lot of bad press for power gamers here, but I feel they are talking about WAAC players. I don't think power gamer should be derogetory. These gamers build lists with units that don't suck, and take options that make the list better. They don't have units of infantry with flamers and Lascannons. They do buy the Pain boy for their Nob squad and upgrade the whole squad to Cyborks. They learn the rules. These are not especially bad qualities, yet the people on this forum would seem to want to lynch such players, let alone play with them.

Lord Damocles
29-06-2010, 11:03
am i a powergamer?
Yes!
People like you sicken me!






(Joke)

Deadnight
29-06-2010, 11:22
being a power gamer, and being a jerk are two totally different things... being a fluff gamer, and apower gamer are not mutually exclusive...

Often times people complaining about dealing with power gamers are really just dealing with a ****.

I am a power gamer. I am loud and proud over the fact. I love mean, lean, and efficient lists. My gaming group is like that too. Yet no one is a jerk. We'll be friendly, polite, and fun to play against. I do great conversion work on my models (seriously, ive had complete strangers come up to me and ask to take pictures of my kroot...), paint fairly decently, and have huge respect, and love for the fluff of the game.

i've faced off against powergamers who were brilliant sportsmen, and fantastic guys. I've faced off against fluff gamers, the self appointed "righteous ones" who always bemoan me for playing with 3 hammerheads, and yet, they've been the ones who have been utter, utter pains in the backside to deal with.

Next time, dont use the term power gamer. Use a term you'd apply to real people, like ***hole, ****head, or jerk. :) trust me, it fits better than power gamer!

ex-green
29-06-2010, 11:32
I dont hold on the typical WAAC player thing some people are compeditave and play to win in everything. Just because he doesnt play the way you want or expect and is pleased when he wins/unhappy to lose. Some people are just like that in life not just 40K be it the way the were brought up or a medical condition forcing their brain to work in a different way. Would you call Wayne Rooney a WAAC player due to the way he reacts on the pitch, just let them enjoy thier moment and if you dont like their way then just dont play them.

Grimtuff
29-06-2010, 11:39
So is there a difference between a Power Gamer and a WAAC player? I see a lot of bad press for power gamers here, but I feel they are talking about WAAC players. I don't think power gamer should be derogetory. These gamers build lists with units that don't suck, and take options that make the list better. They don't have units of infantry with flamers and Lascannons. They do buy the Pain boy for their Nob squad and upgrade the whole squad to Cyborks. They learn the rules. These are not especially bad qualities, yet the people on this forum would seem to want to lynch such players, let alone play with them.

You do know what WAAC means right?

Win
At
All
Costs

Emphasis on the 3rd word, exploiting the grey areas of rules, conviniently forgetting said grey areas which disadvantage your army etc. etc.

Powergamers and WAAC players are one and the same. I believe you're confusing the terms yourself, whilst the vast majority of WAAC players are tournament players, certainly not all tournament players are WAAC players.

Giganthrax
29-06-2010, 12:24
Power Gamer and WAAC are derogatory terms that bad losers use to describe people who beat them. By deeming a certain list/unit cheesy or powerhouse or w/e, these bad losers are taking an imagined moral high ground that enables them to justify their inability to defeat the players who use these lists/units.

This imagined moral high ground can come in many forms, and they're all ludicrous. Here are some;

"A powergamer is taking a game of toy soldiers seriously." - an inherently moronic argument. Is winning at 40k somehow amoral or stupid just because the pieces we use happen to be highly-detailed models? Would the game be "serious business" if instead of space marines it used generic chess-like pieces? Also, if this "game of toy soldiers" is such a trivial thing to you, why are you wasting your time whining about "powergamers" and "cheesy units" on teh interwebz?

"I play for fun, powergamers don't play for fun." - here, the bad loser is trying to impose his own view of what is fun on others. Well, fun is a subjective thing. Many people get great fun from competitive play ie. striving to improve their skills at a particular game and by doing so improve one's ability to win at the said game. Many people also find the idea of spending hard cash, time, and effort on models that are useless on tabletop the exact antithesis of fun.

"Powergamers don't care for fluff; they don't play the game the way it was meant to be played!" - and who is to say how the game was meant to be played? If Games Workshop's codex designer came and added an option to take 9 obliterators in a CSM list, then obviously the option is there to be used. They knew what they were doing.

"Powergamers don't care about people's feelings, they gloat when they win, and they cry when they lose, they cheat to win, etc." - this has nothing to do with whether one wants to win at a game or not. This dude simply lacks basic skills at human relations. Such people exist everywhere, and that includes both the "hardcore" and "casual" players.

TBH, I've seen my share of anti-powergamer whining, and it all stems from the inability of whiners to cope with someone who beats them handily. The vast majority of the people who are vocal about the entire "we're playing to have fun" are usually the dudes who are most pissed off when they lose. Those few people that I've seen who honestly don't care if they win or lose are also the most boring people to play against simply because they have no passion whatsoever.

Axeman1n
29-06-2010, 12:41
Those few people that I've seen who honestly don't care if they win or lose are also the most boring people to play against simply because they have no passion whatsoever.

Of late I've become some what of an inbetween. I do not care if I win or lose. I always play to win. I design armies that are strong, but not at the cost of fluff. I know the rules, and I study them. I look for loopholes and point them out to my opponent as a point of conversation, but I would never use them.
My models are painted. My armies are strong. I play for fun. I play to win. I don't care if I lose. I am a power gamer. I am a power gamer because I take the time to learn what it takes to win. I study the stats of units so I can determine which units to maximize and which to minimize. I study other peoples codecies to find weaknesses and learn how to defeat them. I do research online to see what other people think of rules and see what the current net lists hold in store for me.
I am not a WIN AT ALL COSTS player. I take offense to this accusation that power gamers are WAAC players. I play with passion, but if my winning will cause you to have a bad time, then I'd rather lose. We didn't spend an exhorbitant amount of money and time to have a go and feel like crap later. The hand shake I offer and accept at the end of each game is sincere.

Giganthrax
29-06-2010, 12:49
I was talking about the kind of dudes that honestly don't care. They're the sort of people that will never blow on their dice before they throw them, that will never be even slightly emotionally invested, and that will usually look like they're only playing the game because they've got nothing else to do with their time. Playing against them is pointless, because it really feels like you're playing against yourself.

EDIT: Scratch that. If I was playing against myself then at least I'd be playing against a living opponent. Playing against those "don't care" dudes feels more like you're playing against a computer.

Grimtuff
29-06-2010, 12:50
I am not a WIN AT ALL COSTS player. I take offense to this accusation that power gamers are WAAC players. I play with passion, but if my winning will cause you to have a bad time, then I'd rather lose. We didn't spend an exhorbitant amount of money and time to have a go and feel like crap later. The hand shake I offer and accept at the end of each game is sincere.

You are misunderstanding the term (again). You are not a powergamer, why do a lot of gamers seem to actually want this label as of late? It's like the fething ASBO of the Wargaming world, with certain gamers parading it around like a badge of honour. :rolleyes:

You've heard the term TFG right? How many people on this forum can name said TFG in their local gaming group. If you cannot name them, then you are TFG.

Axeman1n
29-06-2010, 12:57
Maybe I haven't grown up as much as I thought. When I was a kid learning how to program, I used to label myself a hacker cause I thought it was a cooler version of a programmer.
I feel that I've seen too many "Come what may" gamers. I guess the ones I label power gamers are Tourament gamers. The non-tourny gamers put armies together based on what models they have. They do not know how to move their units to maximize CC results when charging or when getting charged. They do not care about cover. I'd have to say that the majority of gamers I meet at my LGS are of this type. Those who care about winning fall into power and cheaters. I guess IMO tourament players who want to win the tournament are power gamers, and tournament players that just want to exercise their models after a long year of sitting in a box after being emmaculately painted are just normal tournament players. WAAC players just cheat/cheese. I do not group them in with anyone else.

Grimtuff
29-06-2010, 13:04
Seriously, a powegamer is someone who's reputation precedes them that much nobody will touch them with a barge pole, lat alone play a game against them due to the savage chore it will become.

Think about the people in your gaming group(s) and or local store. Who is that person, aka TFG* That no-one will ever even consider playing through choice, they would rather have their teeth pulled out by a blind monkey holding a pair of rusty pliers than play this individual, as the former is a more pleasurable experience. ;)

Then, you can observe what a powergamer is.


*TFG=That Flaming (or indeed a much stronger F word) Guy.

Axeman1n
29-06-2010, 13:12
At my LGS, when I first came around, they told me about TFG, and said (after playing against me) that I should play him, as it would make for an interesting game. Apparently he's just very whinny, and consistantly makes up his own rules. Since I've been frequenting the Warseer, I've learned quite a bit about this game we play, and I made an impression (good or bad) that I would be able to handle a game with this player.
Otherwise, I guess I'm probably that guy, not by virtue of what I play, or even how I play, but in the way that I will argue/quote rules during a game, though I'm trying to stop.

Corporeal
29-06-2010, 19:43
someone who plays daemonhunters vs a chaos demon player every single time and plays 5th ed IG vs a 4th ed tau player.


"oh. you're bringing hydras and a baneblade onto the table. AGAIN.'

Grimtuff
29-06-2010, 19:57
someone who plays daemonhunters vs a chaos demon player every single time and plays 5th ed IG vs a 4th ed tau player.


"oh. you're bringing hydras and a baneblade onto the table. AGAIN.'

:eyebrows:
Que?
How are they examples of Powergaming? Daemons can easily table Daemonhunters as much of their equipment is outdated and designed to work against an obselete codex.

Second example: if someone is bringing a Baneblade you are quite clearly playing Apocalypse, something which is not a pickup game and is generally played between groups of gamings friends who have been playing one another for quite some time. Something which WAAC players can seldom experience.

Plagueridden
29-06-2010, 20:00
my past experience with power gamers, have been dreadfull to say the least.
not surprised some of them are still around;)

lowmanjason
30-06-2010, 03:27
how about a dude that builds an eldar army of nothing but guardians on jet bikes

Grand Master Raziel
30-06-2010, 04:33
:eyebrows:
Que?
How are they examples of Powergaming? Daemons can easily table Daemonhunters as much of their equipment is outdated and designed to work against an obselete codex.


You could make it horrendous for the Daemons player, if every character in the DH army (including squad leaders like Justicars and GKT Brother Captains) takes the Sancutuary power (I think that's what it's called, having a brain fart). As long as Sanctuary is active, no Daemons can come within 3" of the psyker who's got it up - basically making the psyker's unit immune to being charged by any Daemon unit. I suppose the Daemon player can still shoot the DH stuff, but if he doesn't come to the table planning on that, he's going to be SOL.

Of course, the downside to that is that the DH player is buying a psychic power for his characters that's completely useless against any armies except Chaos Daemons and Chaos Space Marines (and then only if they're using GLDs, GGDs, or Daemon Princes), and it's not like everything else in the DH army isn't already horrendously expensive in the first place. If a DH player does that, he's not being a powergamer per se, he's just being a jerk.


someone who plays daemonhunters vs a chaos demon player every single time and plays 5th ed IG vs a 4th ed tau player.

"oh. you're bringing hydras and a baneblade onto the table. AGAIN.'

Bringing a Baneblade to a 40K game is actually cheating. Baneblades and other superheavies are not in anyone's dex, only in the Apocalypse supplements. If you've got an opponent regularly using Baneblades in standard 40K games, just tell him to stop.

Axeman1n
30-06-2010, 07:26
Sancurary also blocks LOS

lanrak
30-06-2010, 09:56
Hi all.
I belive the term power gamer is relative.Eg refers to any one that has a more competative focus that you.And this is very subjective.

As GW plc develop games most suitable for narrative co-operative play , yet they try to sell thier games and associated minatures to every one.
So even people that have far to much competative focus to get the best from GW core games have thier veiw re-enforced by the sales staff.

Therfore any atitiude that is condoned by the sales staff, and manifests itself using current rules is valid.

IF GW plc wanted to appeal to one particualr gamer type to get a strong homogenised player base .They would be more honest about the suitability of thier products at point of sale.

If the GW core game player base were allowed to pick and play any of the 100s of games available in the wider TTMG hobby.
You would see like minded gamers drawn to similar games.As there are games writtem with different levels of competativness-narative focus.

You woulnt get the wide range of different attitudes shoehorned in to one game.

TTFN
Lanrak.

Nezalhualixtlan
30-06-2010, 11:24
Powergamers and WAAC players are one and the same. I believe you're confusing the terms yourself, whilst the vast majority of WAAC players are tournament players, certainly not all tournament players are WAAC players.

Power gamers and WAAC players are not at all the same.

A WAAC play will do anything to *win at all costs*, including cheating if required and they can get away with it.

A power gamer is usually interested in the competition, and wants to play the most competitive list they can within the confines of the rules (many times without regard to fluff or other factors like what their army is "supposed" to fight like).

Power gamers can be WAAC players. WAAC players can be power gamers. But they are not one and the same. You can have WAAC casuals who are willing to cheat in order to try and win but still come to the game bringing inferior lists or fluff based lists. You can have Power gamers who come fielding completely legal lists and play by the rules and never try to pick up an undeserved illegal advantage.

The difference is significant.

But too often people confuse the two because they just lump in "undeserved advantage" to anything illegal and anything legal that they just don't like that their opponent has access to by the rules.

And you can find a**hole players of any stripe. You can find enjoyable and friendly players of any stripe. For the most part, my experience has been different from most of the rest here. The power gamers I've played have pretty much all been nice and pleasant with one exception who was truly WAAC, and some of them have really helped me increase my own skill level at the game. The only time I've run into a few jerks have been the sore losers who just bitch and moan about everything being "unfair" when it's their own tactical mistakes that lost them games and they were too wrapped up in finding excuses to realize or admit it. I've never played either of them again, but I'd like to seek out those power gamers to play more often as even if I'm losing, I'll be learning.

Grimtuff
30-06-2010, 11:55
Here we go again!

It seems to me from observing this thread that there seems to be a certain American/UK divide on what a "powergamer" is.

I'm going to chalk this up to the generally more "competative" scene that the US seems to be notorious for, where the term "powergamer" appears to be something of a backhanded compliment to the player which they will defend their title with their last breath.

As I already said, the label "powergamer" has become like the infamous "ASBO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asbo)" in the UK where it is supposed to be a mark of shame bestowed by your peers yet has backfired spectacularly and has become a badge of honour amongst groups of Chavs.

This is like the "Cheesy/Beardy" thing all over again. Something has been lost in translation across the Atlantic. Trust me, it's not cool to be labelled a "powergamer". Good luck getting games with anyone after that.

Take this for example, say you have your sunday league football side and instead of your regualr opponents the opposition decide to wheel out say, the Chelsea starting 11. How is this fair? They are powergaming. The game becomes no fun for you as you are getting trounced by professional footballers.

Nezalhualixtlan
30-06-2010, 15:54
Here we go again!

It seems to me from observing this thread that there seems to be a certain American/UK divide on what a "powergamer" is.
...
Take this for example, say you have your sunday league football side and instead of your regualr opponents the opposition decide to wheel out say, the Chelsea starting 11. How is this fair? They are powergaming. The game becomes no fun for you as you are getting trounced by professional footballers.

Maybe it is a bit of a lost in translation thing... among my local scene (tournament and friendly) there's nothing wrong with being a power gamer, all that means is you're one of the hard to beat players that's both good at list creation and playing, and there's nothing to be ashamed of in being good at the game. Now again, there's never a call for being a poor sport, and if you know you're going up against an inferior or fluff list (or player) there's no reason to take a tournament style "bash their head in" list to crush them in a few turns, but some of us actually prefer taking those lists up against other lists and players of the same caliber to test our skills at high levels of play. And that's a perfectly valid way to play as long as people are happy to play it. There's no reason those games can't be competitive, *and* fun and sporting ans friendly at the same time, casual games don't have a lock on "friendly", competitive and friendly isn't mutually exclusive.

I have noticed this across the pond divide on highly competiitive play though before on other forums. I honestly can't understand the sometimes venomous and vitriolic opposition to highly competitive play. I was talking to a friend of mine recently who was getting ready for the European team championship as part of team America and he was saying how special characters were not going to be allowed by the demand of the non-Americans. It seems silly to me to do that when everyone would have the same access to them, and as my friend stated it's not like it actually rebalances the game, it just balances it differently with a whole different set of what is very powerful for the points cost. But it seemed the Europeans were opposed to it because somehow these characters that anyone including themselves could have used weren't sporting. Seems crazy to me, but I think it speaks to some of the difference in how the game is viewed.

Anyway, I'm unfamiliar with your Chelsea team, but I get the gist and I don't think it's a good analogy. Soccer (or football either way depending on where you are from) and really all sports are pretty dependent on years of practice and the atheletes innate physical abilities. That's just not something anyone can have access to at the drop of a hat. But if you allow your opponent to proxy whatever they need, anyone can build a highly competitive list to field, and they are't limited by monetary resources for non-tournament games. That puts everyone on the same footing right from the start. Now, GW should so a better job with game balance admittedly, but it's got to be tough to perfectly balance a game of rock,paper,scissors when you throw in dozens of other competing pieces. (And if I were running things there I'd be making sure to have frequently updated Errata where game balance issues were addressed more often than once every 4-6+ years with new codex updates, but that's another issue). So, if anyone has access to the same resources going into it, it's pretty far different than running a ringer team you know no one can beat, the ability to be able to beat highly competitive lists is right there in front of everyone for the taking if you care to think it through and figure it out.

That a power gamer will take the time to sit down and do that figuring doesn't make them a jerk, (which is an entirely different issue) but it does make them good at list construction. So it's hard to view the people who whine about that as anything other than merely jealous.

herostoaces
30-06-2010, 16:28
WAAC is the same as power gaming. Both lack when it comes to strategy. If you want to call your self a power gamer deal with the fact it has a negative meaning. Don't get upset about it. A power gamer doesn't build list that take skill to win with. They just build to win with little thinking involved when it comes time to play. Example lash armies basically run them selves. So your local club has good players with high win ratios. Does that make them power gamers not all ways. Is their army a juiced up list not all ways. I play an IG guy that's tough as nails and has a high win ratio. He's not a power gamer by any means. He plays a majority of basic troopers on foot backed by sentinels and 2 Russ tanks. I would hardly call him a power gamer. He wins by tactical moves that you have to use you mind to do. He is the guy people want to play cause he's hard to beat, not cause he's a power gamer.

Nezalhualixtlan
30-06-2010, 16:59
You can give a bad player a "juiced up" list and set them against a good player with an inferior list, and they may win on occasion, but they're still going to get beat most of the time. You can give a good player a "juiced up" list and they're going to beat most players out there unless they're up against another player of the same quality and caliber. People ccan whine about that being power gaming or misguidedly call that WAAC, but you'd do better to use them as an example and learn how to get better at playing the game instead of finding excuses for why you lose to them. Mostly I've just seen that sentiment come from bad players that take inferior lists and can't seem to understand why they constantly lose though. They don't bother to learn the fundamentals of quality list construction, nor the in's and out's of the rules, and the mathhammer analysis of what makes certain match ups better than others. They meander through without a firm grasp on what makes for good strategy and tactic and blame fate, bad luck, and the "cheesy" list their opponent fielded for their perpetual failing.

The game starts with list construction, like it or not. You can handi-cap yourself willingly or unwittingly, but that's not the moral high ground.

I really think a lot of this just comes down to how people view the game though in all honestly. If you view the game as a virtual RP experience where you're both cooperating to tell a story and play somewhat structured make believe with little plastic soldiers, you probably view those of us who enjoy highly competitive play as power gamers and assign negative qualities to such. If you view the game as a test of skills, no holds barred, cut throat competition meant to challenge you and your opponent regardless of the game universe background, you might view those players you see as not up to the challenge in a negative light. Really, all this is solved by just having an open and honest dialog with your opponent pre-game to make sure you both have the same expectations going into it, and if not make compromises to align those relevant interests, or decline the game.

Lord Damocles
30-06-2010, 17:34
Take this for example, say you have your sunday league football side and instead of your regualr opponents the opposition decide to wheel out say, the Chelsea starting 11. How is this fair? They are powergaming. The game becomes no fun for you as you are getting trounced by professional footballers.
That would depend entirely on what you wanted out of the game. If you wanted a 'friendly kickabout', yeah, you might be a bit cheesed off. If on the other hand you *wanted* a tough game, where's the problem?


I think this is a bit of a problem in this ever recurring debate as well. What is deemed 'power gaming' depends on what people expect/want from a game.

If Person A goes into a game wanting a 'friendly beer and prezels' game, and their opponant, Person B, turns up with a mech Guard lists and stomps them, then Person A might deem Person B to be a 'power gamer' (assuming a negative connotation) because the game 'wasn't fair' or whatever.
However if Person C, who *wants* a hard fought game, then plays Person B, they might well be perfectly happy with their opponant.


EDIT: More or less Ninja'd by Nezalhualixtlan above... :shifty:

herostoaces
30-06-2010, 19:39
You got a point about putting a juiced up list in a brand new guys hands that has never played one game, if you play not knowing the rules your just a dink. Be real, any new guy with a basic knowledge of the rules and mechanics of the game could drop you if they come with a juiced list. If you need an example; lash armies, no matter what moving some one's models is lame. Another is rolling out an ork army with both troops being nobs with 2 bosses all on bikes. Hell I play orks and I don't even do that. If you can't play with the basic trooper and fair well then you need to stop gaming. I don't ever cry/whine about a tie/loss. It is what it is. I learn how deal with or over come that kind of list/player that beat my list/me. I shake their hand and thank them for the game. The only thing here that I can read is that you think it's OK to be a power gamer. No one goes gaming to get dominated whether it's a friendly game or not by some one who has to crutch themselves with a juiced lists. Just admit that power gaming is wrong and the emperor will save you, you dam hieratic.

onidemon
30-06-2010, 23:03
You know, I've never really been up against a "power gamer" in Warhammer 40k...

I did a few times in my days playing those clix base games though. The incident that sticks out in my mind most was my first night playing Mechwarrior Dark Age. All one needed to do was bring a 300 point army, and play against three opponents, to get the monthly mail-away nifty collectible unit. So I assembled my best mech and a few supporting units and headed to the shop.

The first person I faced had this uber-rare unit given only to winners of tournaments. Combined with a pair of jetbikes, it made for a force my lousy army simply couldn't attack or defend against. I marveled at how cool it was that one could get a more powerful item by winning a tourney, and headed on to my next opponent. My next opponent had... the exact same force. Same uber-rare collectable unit for tourney winners only, and the same two jetbikes. He played it exactly the same way, and soon I was shuffling to my final opponent in defeat, only to find that... wait for it... it was the same army and he played it the exact same way.

Afterward, I asked if they were all tourney winners. After all, its not so bad to be beat by local champions. No, they all explained, they'd just gone and dropped a hundred fifty dollars on ebay to buy the unit, and read a forum guide for how to win with it.

I agreed it was cool, and asked if they had a more anything-goes night where people played the various factions in the game. They weren't sure what I meant, and explained all the other units weren't any good compared to this one model. Again I agreed, but pointed out there were hundreds of figures in the product line, and for the sake of variety didn't they play all the other stuff and set up scenarios between the rival factions and all? And, again, they couldn't see the point of it. All the other units were *worse*, they explained, why would you ever play anything but the one good army? I repeatedly attempted to explain the concept of narrative gaming or seeking a challenge, and they in turn explained how I could locate the good figure on Ebay.

And that, is power-gaming to me.

Thud
30-06-2010, 23:48
I think a lot of people in this thread have difficulties in distinguishing between people who are plain better than themselves in 40k and **********.

No one likes to play against **********. Even the guys who go to tournaments with the preposterous intention of winning don't like to play against **********.

And I know this flies in the face of the whole "if he doesn't adhere to the arbitrary restrictions I set for myself, then he's only interested in winning" paradigm, but those ********** come in all shapes and colours. Win At All Costs (WAAC) players aren't just guys who are good at the game. They're also guys who are bad at the game, but after they lose they still try to "win" by saying the guy who bested them used a cheesy army, or played in an unfluffy manner or spammed good units or whatever.

I'm not saying that you all should simply stop sucking at 40k and play the way I do. No, do whatever you like. If you like to just push cool models around, throw some dice and drink some beer and live with the delusion that Lash Princes and Nob Bikers are the best units in the game, then by all means, go ahead. But if you run into a guy at a tournament, or just at a random pick-up game at the club/store, and he tables you in turn 2, it doesn't mean he's necessarily the douche. I can't speak for anyone else, but I sure as hell don't derive any pleasure from clubbing baby seals. I'm a competitive player, and as the name itself apparently is not clear enough; that means I enjoy competition. I like games against good players with good armies where the outcome isn't clear after my opponent has deployed his army in a way so horrible that I can only sigh in the knowledge that the next hour will be a waste of my time. One of my best games of all time was a tie against a Vulkan army, and one of the worst was against some Tau dude who kept whining about Tau being a crap army and that my Eldar were cheesy.

And, by the way, as a competitive gamer, I'll let some of you guys (who obviously haven't found out yet) in on a little secret: the best lists in 40k are the balanced all-comers, not the ones that rely on super units of doom (aka noobhammers) or one-trick-ponies. ;)

DaSpaceAsians
30-06-2010, 23:55
And, by the way, as a competitive gamer, I'll let some of you guys (who obviously haven't found out yet) in on a little secret: the best lists in 40k are the balanced all-comers, not the ones that rely on super units of doom (aka noobhammers) or one-trick-ponies. ;)

Smartest 40k thing I heard all day

BTW, here's the difference between Powergamers and WAAC players according to me:
Powergamer: Builds strong lists that work for them despite being unfluffy while remaining effective and is a good sport
WAAC player:Looks up for the List on the net and is generally a bad sport.

I have never met a powergamer with a bad attitude but I did meet WAAC players that were **********. Most people simply let the local one win since the store doesn't appreciate rhino dents in the wall nor dice on the basement floor nor a temper tantrum

Nezalhualixtlan
01-07-2010, 00:00
You got a point about putting a juiced up list in a brand new guys hands that has never played one game, if you play not knowing the rules your just a dink. Be real, any new guy with a basic knowledge of the rules and mechanics of the game could drop you if they come with a juiced list.

I don't accept that, it's not truth. I've been able to handle decent players using "juiced" lists (yeah I've been beaten by them before too, but not so often that I feel at all like they're "unfair"), I certainly don't fear people who don't have a great mind for tactics using them.


If you need an example; lash armies, no matter what moving some one's models is lame. Another is rolling out an ork army with both troops being nobs with 2 bosses all on bikes.

I've handled decent players using dual lash and nob bikers, I really don't see the issue. Are they powerful? Yes. Are they unstoppable? No, and if you know what you are doing you can take steps to mitigate that power and handle the game. I have yet to have the opportunity to play a Leafblower, and I hear they're about the pinnacle of power gaming to date, but I wouldn't hesitate to face off against it, and I would try my best over time to figure out how to destroy it.


Hell I play orks and I don't even do that. If you can't play with the basic trooper and fair well then you need to stop gaming. I don't ever cry/whine about a tie/loss. It is what it is. I learn how deal with or over come that kind of list/player that beat my list/me. I shake their hand and thank them for the game. The only thing here that I can read is that you think it's OK to be a power gamer. No one goes gaming to get dominated whether it's a friendly game or not by some one who has to crutch themselves with a juiced lists. Just admit that power gaming is wrong and the emperor will save you, you dam hieratic.

I don't ever cry or whine about a loss, or tie. I don't gloat when I win. I shake my opponents hand afterwards and tell them good game so long as they were good sports win lose or tie. I'm friendly, I'm sporting. And yes, I think it's fine and OK to be a power gamer. It's not fine to be a power gamer 100% of the time. If you are facing off against a noob, tone it down and give them a chance, it's more about the actual competition than it is about crushing people, and particularly in the case of new players getting them acquainted with the rules and having them become good opponents in the long term. Crushing people isn't fun, for either side. If you have a friend that's told you he's going to bring an iffy fluff list, tone it down if you want to play them.

But when you're dealing with an equal, go for broke, pull out all the stops, play the game to it's fullest potential, use every tool in your arsenal, every rule and legal move in the book to try and eek out the win, or tie, or have your army die trying.

Axeman1n
01-07-2010, 00:05
I guess DaSpaceAsians is in the minority with me. Learning how to list build, and basic strategy is not something I see a lot of players doing. When they graduate to this, I call them power gamers. When they demonstrate a bad attitude, I call them WAAC players.

DeeKay
01-07-2010, 00:29
For me, there is no stigma for being a power gamer. Let's be completely honest with ourselves, it may be toy soldiers, but things are generally more fun when you are winning.

However, start acting like a douche about it, and then there is a problem. |The games I seem to remember most fondly are the games where I know I played against someone who brought their best to the table and I know I did too. The result doesn't even matter in games like that. Games I try and forget are the ones where people (myself included in a few rare cases I admit) have basically done whatever they wanted to do to ensure a win, regardless of the rules or even basic manners.

My point is this: when approaching a game "hang on tightly, let go lightly". Always try your best, but don't let the fact that you might lose bother you to the point of ruining the other player's game. After all, it's as much their game as it is yours, they should enjoy it too.

With regards,
Dan.

herostoaces
01-07-2010, 08:27
I understand what yours saying. I am relatively new to posting, but I have been playing since 2ND edition of 40k. So well most gamers now were filling their diapers. I was out play on the table with rules most people never seen that are gaming now. I guess I see the term as a negative thing since entering the world of gaming and rpg. I don't feel that a juiced list is unfair, just not challenging for both players. I guess I feel the point of game was to use your codex to build a good list that challenges both players to bring the best skill and cunning out of their army with the story of the 40k world with it. Keeping in mind the military doesn't send just special forces to fight wars. Like in the Marines every one is a basic riflemen. They are what wins wars, the basic man. I though some may get a laugh out of the hieratic comment. It was not personal. I just tire of gaming with people who can't seem to adapt and run with tired old or new list that bring only premium troops over your basic one. Yes good troops are fine to play with. As you said play to the level of your opponent. But some opponents never change. I have to disagree still in the meaning of power gamers. I feel power gamer, WAAC, juiced lists and just plain out of control cheesy list are a bad and that gamers will all ways have to deal with them. Through out gaming I have come across many what I think may be called power gamers that build list the are competitive. Most the time they are the one who gets loud and whine about it not going their way. I have seen many models fly off many tables as they cruse that how could this be I'm great and so my army. They deployed right, the moved well but just not enough to out win on me cause I knew how to deal with them. I have seen power gamers lose it the most emotionally and physically. I've watched a grown man losing with a great list that's competitive and has good knowledge of the game go off. Who I'd think would be a power gamer with how I under stand your deff of it. When his defeat is all most final he starts yelling at the young teenager who he's playing. Mind you this was wrong to watch a 40 year old do this, but at the time I was just 16 or 17. He then throws his models in the case only to yell at his son it's time to go. That's be for his game is done and his son's. Making his son pack up up his army mid game. What a hell that was for the son. Saying sorry to the guy his Dad was playing and the guy he was playing. I'm sorry but that is power gaming and it's ills. I don't think your any of what I have talked about pertanes to you. Your post make sence and not tanted with the temper I think comes with power gaming. I think what you discribed/ how you said you act is a good or great gamer and not a power gamer.


I don't accept that, it's not truth. I've been able to handle decent players using "juiced" lists (yeah I've been beaten by them before too, but not so often that I feel at all like they're "unfair"), I certainly don't fear people who don't have a great mind for tactics using them. I 've handled decent players using dual lash and nob bikers, I really don't see the issue. Are they powerful? Yes. Are they unstoppable? No, and if you know what you are doing you can take steps to mitigate that power and handle the game. I have yet to have the opportunity to play a Leafblower, and I hear they're about the pinnacle of power gaming to date, but I wouldn't hesitate to face off against it, and I would try my best over time to figure out how to destroy it. I don't ever cry or whine about a loss, or tie. I don't gloat when I win. I shake my opponents hand afterwards and tell them good game so long as they were good sports win lose or tie. I'm friendly, I'm sporting. And yes, I think it's fine and OK to be a power gamer. It's not fine to be a power gamer 100% of the time. If you are facing off against a noob, tone it down and give them a chance, it's more about the actual competition than it is about crushing people, and particularly in the case of new players getting them acquainted with the rules and having them become good opponents in the long term. Crushing people isn't fun, for either side. If you have a friend that's told you he's going to bring an iffy fluff list, tone it down if you want to play them. But when you're dealing with an equal, go for broke, pull out all the stops, play the game to it's fullest potential, use every tool in your arsenal, every rule and legal move in the book to try and eek out the win, or tie, or have your army die trying.

Nezalhualixtlan
01-07-2010, 11:40
I've only been in the game for about 2 1/2 years now, but I know the game as well as anyone I know with probably 1 exception who is just brilliant, and a number who I think are equals when it comes to the game, strategy and tactics. I'm probably older than most in the Hobby, whether it's more than you or not, I don't know, but age at this point matters less than maturity and skill, something it's clear you are seeking as well.

Your example of the guy that gets upset because they are losing with a good list, and yanks their son out of the hall... that isn't a power gamer, that's just a douc hebag, and someone who is immature, and emotionally unstable, and probably an all around jack ass outside the game too. But its not power gaming, that's just being a bad sport, and a dick. The essence of power gaming is trying to work within the rules to find the most powerful and efficient ways of winning, it's a bit of min-maxing to a degree, it's a bit of hardcore contingency planning, a bit of mathhammer, and it's a bit of psychological warfare with your opponent, and usually without regards to the in game fluff. But it's not about throwing temper tantrums and whining like a little girl.

I know a fair number of people I'd class as power gamers. They're pretty much like me. They're friendly, they are fun to play against, and they're good sports, and it's hard to see why you wouldn't like playing against them unless you weren't good at the game and WAAC where winning is actually something that's hugely important to you but you can't seem to beat them anyway. None of them ever throws tantrums, they accept their wins graciously, and they take their losses the same, knowing when they were beat by their own mistakes, or when it was really just bad luck, or when they were simply outplayed. I can't not class them as power gamers though, because they most of them are pretty hardcore tournament players, and they bring hard as nails tournament lists to play most of the time, constantly trying out new increasingly powerful combos that they test out for future tournaments sake. I think anyone would be hard pressed to not call that a power gamer, but they're some of the best most interesting and fun opponents I know.

By contrast the only time I ever saw tantrums thrown were at a hobby store I don't go to any more where a few times a couple teen age kids were getting beat by their own dumb moves, and couldn't accept that fact and started calling their opponents cheesy, whining about anything that didn't go their way, and ultimately quitting mid game and packing up to leave because somehow it was all "so unfair' and telling their opponent "you suck".

So maybe my experience makes me biased, but it is what it is.

herostoaces
01-07-2010, 15:18
I find it rare that other players what to game at a mature level and competitivly. Good job on that, I found that people will see that and would rather play a player as you or I. I didn't mean for age to sound is the say all. I was trying to say in my long history of gaming in a comical way. That's what I think it is a power gamer is from experince . The Dad story totaly true story. I to stop going to places where you find such *******. All though the store told him not to return. We'll have to agree to disagree on the meaning. I just really think your discription is a good or great gamer. With out our differences 40k's verity of armys wouldn't be played. Thank heavens the day of only Space Marine armies and Orks has long passed. When I started thats all the armies you saw in the local hang outs. I think that was due to the starter of the day being orcs/marine that came with the rules and our store didn't have that much.There was mainly Marines cause most the orc model looked real lame. There were the rare guys who showed up with chaos or squats. Which were really cool to us. I think they mail ordered their stuff or special ordered with store. I think every time I saw the Spacewolf player of the circle at the time I watched. That was the guy I wanted to be, a good gamer. He won most the time and was nice enough to show my self how things worked or why they did what they did.

IGoblinego
01-07-2010, 20:05
oh and if you voted number three then you are a power gamer!

I voted number three since I have never heard anything like power gamer, does that make me power gamer as you concern?

gwarsh41
01-07-2010, 20:18
Now, what if I field a WAAC army against a friends WAAC army. then we drink beer and taunt each into screwing up out battle plan?
Make power gamer lists, but usually dont play the power gamer stuff lol.

ReveredChaplainDrake
01-07-2010, 20:37
I would not only consider myself a powergamer, but I'd take it a step further and confess to being a bit WAAC as well. However, most wouldn't notice it from my army lists, or from the way I play my games. I try to WAAC in my own little ways. Research is nice, but I still prefer coming up with my own ideas that work in my own metagame. Because if I do that, then the credit for my wins actually goes to me, and not the Warseer community who proofreads my "unbeatable" army lists. ;)

The choices I make when building my armies (except for those I make because I'm too cheap to buy new stuff :angel:) all have power-related reasons. This doesn't stop me from also having aesthetic reasons, but the power reasons always rank pretty high. For instance, anybody who's seen my thoughts on Chaos Space Marines over about the past year knows that I swear by Chaos Raptors. Yes, yes, I like the Night Lords color scheme, fluff, personality, ethos, the Soul Hunter book, and so on, but I also think that 8 Raptors with the Icon of Khorne, 2x Special Weapons, and a Fist Champ are not only a great special weapon delivery system, but are a mighty sledgehammer that I can relocate to wherever I need buckets of CC attacks. Conversely, I do not like Plague Marines. No matter how good everybody says they are, I do not consider sitting back and waiting for the opponent to charge me to be a viable tactic for an army that lacks disposable fodder. Instead, I'll use IoK-bearing Chaos Space Marines to do the job because I prefer calling the shots myself to letting my opponent dictate my pace. It just so happens that I don't like the looks of Plague Marines either, as Nurgle models have some really dirty paint schemes, and I'm a bit anal-retentive about chromatic army unity with my MEQ armies.

Does this make me WAAC, or sportsmanlike? You be the judge.

The SkaerKrow
02-07-2010, 12:40
To me, a power gamer is a player who is only interested in winning the game, and has no concern for the mutual enjoyment of the game itself.

HerrDusty
02-07-2010, 12:51
I voted 3.

I don't really see "power gamers" when I play people, I see players with varing degrees of competetiveness, and *************.

There's a guy at my local shop that I've played a few times, and I reckon some people here may peg him as a "power gamer". I do not. Sure, he's very competetive and he uses some rather questionable rules intepretations at times and brings very powerful lists, he likes to win games, he plays at tournaments, fair enough. However, he is the total opposite of a douche, he's very nice to talk to, always up for a laugh, really enjoys playing a good opponent, win or lose. He also always checks rules intepretations with me while playing and explains what he's up to, and not once have I argued with him or fallen out with him.

Now I have also played some people who are really competetive, and total douches. These are the people I don't enjoy playing against.

When I play, I tend to look out more for a nice, sociable player, and I worry less about how competetive he is. He'll give me a harder game if he's competetive and plays a strong list, but I won't enjoy the experience if he's a dick about it.

Grand Master Raziel
02-07-2010, 15:27
By contrast the only time I ever saw tantrums thrown were at a hobby store I don't go to any more where a few times a couple teen age kids were getting beat by their own dumb moves, and couldn't accept that fact and started calling their opponents cheesy, whining about anything that didn't go their way, and ultimately quitting mid game and packing up to leave because somehow it was all "so unfair' and telling their opponent "you suck".

That is sort of one of the classic defense mechanisms of a player who's just no good. Rather than learning from their mistakes and becoming better players for it, they demonize the opponent who's beating them to make them feel better about themselves. Ultimately, their doing themselves a disservice by stunting their growth as players and shrinking the pool of players who would be willing to play against them. Sure is annoying when you find yourself across the table from one of these guys, though.


Does this make me WAAC, or sportsmanlike? You be the judge.

I think you play like I do. You pick a theme, then make the most powerful list you can within that theme. We're sort of in that tiny middle ground between all-out power games and all-out fluffbunnies. Back to back, RDD! We'll be facing attacks from both sides! :D

BranWheatKillah
02-07-2010, 17:51
I had this conversation with a friend recently after seeing a post in the Fantasy forums from a guy that wouldn't play against models he considered overpowered. The argument can easily be made for Fantasy or 40k as well as just about any other game in existence.

I started talking about how I was going to use a massive number of Bolt Throwers in my army and couple it with some Hydras. He said he would likely only play me once or twice and then not want to play anymore because my army would be very "cheesy." He then brought up a friend of ours who only brings the "most overpowered" lists that he can to the table.

I asked him one very simple question, "Why would I not want to play the most powerful options my army has to offer in as great of a number as I can field?"

He responded with, "Because it's not fun to play against and no one will want to play you."

I asked him then if I was supposed to by models I considered inferior or didn't need so that I could build an army more suitable for other people to enjoy or if I should keep building the army I wanted to play based on the units I felt were the most effective. After all, I enjoy gaming because it's fun and I don't need to win to feel satisfied but I do still prefer winning.

I do build fun lists that are based off of themes or because I want to try new strategies but I don't limit my ability to build the most powerful list I can either.

Hakar
03-07-2010, 18:22
In my opinion, a powergamer is a person who creates an army list with the intent to say "Don't bother putting up your army, you can't win anyway.".

Corporeal
09-07-2010, 07:20
You could make it horrendous for the Daemons player, if every character in the DH army (including squad leaders like Justicars and GKT Brother Captains) takes the Sancutuary power (I think that's what it's called, having a brain fart). As long as Sanctuary is active, no Daemons can come within 3" of the psyker who's got it up - basically making the psyker's unit immune to being charged by any Daemon unit. I suppose the Daemon player can still shoot the DH stuff, but if he doesn't come to the table planning on that, he's going to be SOL.

Of course, the downside to that is that the DH player is buying a psychic power for his characters that's completely useless against any armies except Chaos Daemons and Chaos Space Marines (and then only if they're using GLDs, GGDs, or Daemon Princes), and it's not like everything else in the DH army isn't already horrendously expensive in the first place. If a DH player does that, he's not being a powergamer per se, he's just being a jerk.

which he's done. all he really cares about is winning, and when he loses he gets very snotty about it.




Bringing a Baneblade to a 40K game is actually cheating. Baneblades and other superheavies are not in anyone's dex, only in the Apocalypse supplements. If you've got an opponent regularly using Baneblades in standard 40K games, just tell him to stop.

I've got three words for you: superheavy spearhead.