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Malice313
25-06-2010, 08:03
There has been a push away from this idea for a long time now, what with the chemotherapy of the Squats, etc.

I for one didn't mind the idea though. It gave a different perspective from most Sci-fi of the day and certainly was no cheesier than many concepts such as those of Star Trek's multitude of anthropomorphic aliens with weird make up and hair styles or Star Wars WWII in space.

The Napoleonic imagery taken from the Atreides in the Dune movie is still deeply entrenched in 40k as is the medieval Christian iconography.

I guess a lot of the fantasy aspect came from the limited range of early Citadel Miniatures. Many of the miniatures were obvious reworks of other ones. Many of the old Chaos Renegades ended up as Ork Boys and the Eldar range was basically 4 miniatures with different guns and heads.

Don't get me wrong. I like the introduction of the Tau and the more modern looking IG.

How do others feel about the old more fantasy based 40k?

Sir_Turalyon
25-06-2010, 11:40
It's still there, it just has been taken to logical conclusion. Just as WFB started as dark generic fantasy battle game with generic fantasy races and few lines of fluff to make them dark, then background was enriched into "dark" direction while staying true to original concept. 40k started as WFB in space, with armies being direct expies of WFB races and few lines of fluff describing what are orcs doing in SF, then started developing the SF part. It might moved from WARHAMMER! in space to Warhammer IN SPACE!, but underlying concept of space fantasy is the same.

And no, wouldn't like it otherwise.

Wishing
25-06-2010, 11:57
There may have been pushes away from the fantasy aspects in some areas, but there have been pushes towards it in others, namely Dark Eldar and Daemons, the first being heavily WHFB inspired and the second being an actual WHFB army, and both being new additions to the game.

Personally, I'm a big fan of the fantasy theme, although it might be more accurate to say the gothic/historical fantasy theme. What makes 40k into 40k is the fact that space marines walk around wearing medieval monk's robes and flayed wolf pelts, eldar wear italian comedia del'arte custumes, tyranids look like dragons, and everyone runs around with giant axes, swords and shields. If the game was straight up cyberpunk, it wouldn't have quite the same appeal.

Lars Porsenna
25-06-2010, 14:53
The Napoleonic imagery taken from the Atreides in the Dune movie is still deeply entrenched in 40k...


I always thought the Atreides imagery in the Lynch Dune movie was more Victorian (especially late, around the turn of the century) than Napoleonic.

Damon.

Souleater
25-06-2010, 15:09
I don't see anything wrong with Grimdarknessofthefarfutureing of the Old World if it is done correctly.

Eldar could easily have been high elves in space but while retaining the central concept (a once might race hanging on by its collective fingernails) they have a different asthetic and fighting style.

The Necron and C'tan are an interesing take on the Undead but with a twist of The Elder Gods.

Squats didn't work because they didnt' try to come up with a unique take on Dwarfs in Space as Aliens. Imperial Guard mutants was a dead end.

I think it would be a shame if GW didn't do Lizardmen or Skaven in space simply because 'it would be XXXX race in space'. Porting a concept across but making it it's own thing can be very interesting if done well.

Lars Porsenna
25-06-2010, 17:01
Dunno if I'd really want skaven in space, but Lizardmen could definitely work: make them a more primitive civilization compared to the Imperium, but inhabiting a world with the ruins of a much, much more technologically advanced civilization. And make them awesome psykers or something.

Damon.

Iracundus
25-06-2010, 17:11
Dunno if I'd really want skaven in space, but Lizardmen could definitely work: make them a more primitive civilization compared to the Imperium, but inhabiting a world with the ruins of a much, much more technologically advanced civilization. And make them awesome psykers or something.

Damon.

In the Necron Codex it was already recommended to use a Lizardmen army to represent degenerate Old Ones. Under such a representation, it would be similar to the WHFB Lizardmen army directly: tribal primitives, with their leaders able to wield astounding psychic powers, but without true understanding of how they do so (since they're degenerate).

Lars Porsenna
25-06-2010, 18:47
In the Necron Codex it was already recommended to use a Lizardmen army to represent degenerate Old Ones. Under such a representation, it would be similar to the WHFB Lizardmen army directly: tribal primitives, with their leaders able to wield astounding psychic powers, but without true understanding of how they do so (since they're degenerate).

I think I remember reading that, come to think of it. I haven't pulled out Necrons in a few years (as you might guess...)

Damon.

Malice313
26-06-2010, 02:16
I always thought the Atreides imagery in the Lynch Dune movie was more Victorian (especially late, around the turn of the century) than Napoleonic.

Damon.

I see your point.

...and there was a distinct lack of ridiculous hats too.:D

Lothlanathorian
26-06-2010, 09:56
There may have been pushes away from the fantasy aspects in some areas, but there have been pushes towards it in others, namely Dark Eldar and Daemons, the first being heavily WHFB inspired and the second being an actual WHFB army, and both being new additions to the game.

Are you calling both Daemon armies new to the game or Daemons and Dark Eldar, because, technically, neither is true.

The Daemon army being re-added after being out for a few editions would be true. And Dark Eldar were released with the launch of 3rd Edition. I don't know if you could ever field a pure daemon force in WHFB before, though. And both of the current Daemon books were released together, so it isn't like they made one for WHFB and then decided to do them for 40K.

Messiahnide
26-06-2010, 14:09
Dunno if I'd really want skaven in space, but Lizardmen could definitely work: make them a more primitive civilization compared to the Imperium, but inhabiting a world with the ruins of a much, much more technologically advanced civilization. And make them awesome psykers or something.

Damon.

I know its black library so sometimes frowned on as canon but in horus rising theres a race called keylekid that are described as reptilian by loken.
i think it would be cool if they brought lizardmen in space to 40k if done with the right twist and flair.

barrangas
26-06-2010, 14:59
While I like the idea of more non-imperium armies being added to 40k, I'd rather see that they weren't space (skaven/lizards/vampires/etc). This doesn't mean I couldn't live with it if GW went back on there stance and added them. I'd rather see a Fantasy game "IN SPAAAAACE", i.e. Elves in Victorian dresses and Dwarves with Pith Helmets and Monacles. Sort of like the DnD Spelljammers setting.

Malice313
27-06-2010, 10:10
As for new armies in 40k:

I've noticed that there has been a few marsupial style alien species in some of the recent Sci-Fi, such and SLA Industries Scav's in the CS1 book and the Zuul of Sword of the Stars.

I guess its a bit hard to really view marsupials as alien living in a country with the only two living species of monotreme still exist and where marsupials are the dominant type of native mammal.

I think it would be hard to make a race as truly belligerent and stupid as marsupials. As tough as a wombat, as fast as a kangaroo, as adaptable as a brush tail. With jaws like a Tassie devil, claws like a koala and as venomous as a platypus.

...and all of them as thick as 2 short planks!

They'd basically be very similar to Skaven anyway.


While I like the idea of more non-imperium armies being added to 40k, I'd rather see that they weren't space (skaven/lizards/vampires/etc). This doesn't mean I couldn't live with it if GW went back on there stance and added them. I'd rather see a Fantasy game "IN SPAAAAACE", i.e. Elves in Victorian dresses and Dwarves with Pith Helmets and Monacles. Sort of like the DnD Spelljammers setting.

I don't know about fantasy, but there has been a few Victorian pulp miniatures ranges made by Pulp Figures (oddly enough), Artizan, Comfy Chair Games, Wyrd miniatures to name a few and Hydra miniatures does some great 1930's style Flash Gordan Sci-Fi Ultra tech mini's.


Are you calling both Daemon armies new to the game or Daemons and Dark Eldar, because, technically, neither is true.


Not to answer on his behalf but I think Wishing was saying that both those codices are examples of 40 and WFB meshing. The Daemon Army is pretty much the same idea of daemon world forces from the old RoC books and DE are basically... well DE in WFB.

*** *** ***

I for one would like to see the Chaos armies fleshed out again. In the past there was Renegade Warbands, Renegade Strike Forces, Cultist rebels, Daemon World armies. Even different doctrines and methods used by the individual remnants of the traitor chapters.

All gone now...:(

I would have thought fighting counter insurgents would have been all the rage these days.

Lothlanathorian
27-06-2010, 11:42
My point was, neither of them are new, though. Of those two, only the Daemons are relevant and only just barely since, well, Chaos exists in both worlds and the Daemon Codex and the Daemon Army Book were released together, so it isn't like one was copying the other since they are the same thing.

So, my issue wasn't in disagreeing with him so much as asking if he was trying to point them as being something new and recent, which they aren't. 40K has grown significantly apart from Fantasy in the 5 Editions that have been released.

barrangas
27-06-2010, 15:23
My point was, neither of them are new, though. Of those two, only the Daemons are relevant and only just barely since, well, Chaos exists in both worlds and the Daemon Codex and the Daemon Army Book were released together, so it isn't like one was copying the other since they are the same thing.

So, my issue wasn't in disagreeing with him so much as asking if he was trying to point them as being something new and recent, which they aren't. 40K has grown significantly apart from Fantasy in the 5 Editions that have been released.

In a way the Daemon army is some what new to the current style of 40k fluff. The old Daemon army was back around 2nd Ed. along with armies like the Squats and Genestealer Cults. Back in 3rd - and most of 4th Ed. the idea of a Daemon Army showing up was end game. The army showed and the Imperium tried to destroy the planet or it got swallowed by the Warp. Now they have the Daemon Codex and it doesn't seem like as terrible an event as it did before the Daemon army release. In a way its sort of like GW bringing back the GS Cult, Squats, or making an actual Slann Army. It's not new per say, but it is an almost 180 on their previous stance.