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View Full Version : Using dragons in 8th edition - Any changes you will be making?



Kburn
26-06-2010, 04:12
I use a dragon for my WoC army. Wonder if you guys will be using any different tactics for them in 8th edition.

For me, I'll be shedding all armour and weapons to keep points low.
My reason is that since all cannons do D6 damage now, if I face one, I'll die anyway, might as well not take any armour.
I'll be shedding all weapons due to the super-stomp attacks in 8th, if I hit anything, it'll die anyway. I'm also not going to use my dragon to fight another (that's what the hellcannon is for), and whatever heroes I fight will die almost instantly anyway. Its overkill to even swap out handweapon for a halberd.

I might be wrong on the armour part though. I think there might be lesser cannons due to duplication rules. However, since there is no more guessing, combined with the D6 wounds, it seems cannons might have a easier time slaying monsters....

So my dragon will now be extremely simple -Dragon, Lord, Shield. If a cannon tries to kill me, then too bad, the lord an dragon has no choice but to be a over-glorfied shield for the rest of the army. If it hits anything, it'll die anyway, and I'll use a hellcannon to kill any monsters that want to fight the dragon

Ultimate Life Form
26-06-2010, 04:22
The Zombie Dragon sucked before and does even more so now as it leeches points like there's no tomorrow from my character slots. Unlike you I sadly don't have the option to send my general out there naked with a big target on his head because when he dies it's curtains for the army. I'd rather invest these points in additional characters and, most importantly, protection for my general.

necroncell2131
26-06-2010, 04:57
3000 point games are where my dragon is going to show its face and even then bar bones and going after small units and warmachines.

kardar233
26-06-2010, 05:13
You could invest in the Crimson Armour of Dargan or a Golden Eye of Tzeentch to at least give a little bit of a chance against cannonballs.

Kayosiv
26-06-2010, 05:33
You have to use at least an enchanted shield. It's cheap and extremely effective at keeping your lord safe. From cannon balls? no. But from small arms fire, close combat, and low strength magic missles, you bet. Plus, IF your dragon gets shot out from under you by a cannon, you're going to want the extra armor. I'd also recomend at least some kind of magical weapon. There are many for 10 points or less.

You can get a pretty sweet Chaos lord for less than 25 points in magical items, the dragon can do the rest I'd agree.

Arkfatalis
26-06-2010, 15:37
It all depands on how Arsanil's points are sorted out. If he is counted as a rare and you can't split the points between the hero and rare, then I will stop using him, but if you split it evenly he will become very useful at destroying the mass war machines, I reckon we will see in the new edition. I reckon more people will be getting more war machines, so it will just be more units for him to destroy.

Vsurma
26-06-2010, 16:13
Dragons have a HUUUUUUGE weakness.

As the dragon does not count towards overkill in challenges this means that you really cannot charge anything with a unit champ!

HUUUUge problem.

Oberon
26-06-2010, 16:53
And it cannot attack the rest of the regiment either with the challenge going on, so it's pretty much useless as a mount? Great...

GodlessM
26-06-2010, 17:45
All the same though, most units will still only win the combat by 1 that way, so unless you have a counter-charge set-up it doesn't really matter unless they get a bad roll.

Oberon
26-06-2010, 17:56
3 ranks, banner vs 1 wound and charging? Testing against breaking on ld 6-8, not nice.

GodlessM
26-06-2010, 18:02
3 ranks, banner vs 1 wound and charging? Testing against breaking on ld 6-8, not nice.

1 wound? Only the Dragon doesn't get the overkill, the Lord on top does and most Lords have 4 attacks averaging at 3 kills with the usual set-ups.

mattcrask9
26-06-2010, 18:05
i think with the new edtion armies need to decide wether to have alot of hero's and lords or to have just a few

GodlessM
26-06-2010, 18:06
A few seems like a sounder tactic.

Kloud13
26-06-2010, 18:48
got to be really carefull now, because the wound chart has changed. now a strength 3 arrow, can wound our dragon on a 6. so all one needs is mass arrow fire to drop our dragons. better keep that armour if ya can.

GodlessM
26-06-2010, 19:02
got to be really carefull now, because the wound chart has changed. now a strength 3 arrow, can wound our dragon on a 6. so all one needs is mass arrow fire to drop our dragons. better keep that armour if ya can.

S3 could always wound a Dragon.

Kayosiv
26-06-2010, 20:52
Wait so a dragon killing somebody doesn't count towards overkill in a challenge, AND the dragon cannot attack anything else besides the challenger...

I mean I wouldn't put it past GW, but it doesn't make a lot of sense.

"Hey guys, Sven just got his arms bitten off and his guts ripped out by that giant griffin!"

"True, but did you see the guy riding it, he only stabbed him like twice, we got this!"

The mount in a challenge, if allowed to fight under the new rules, really should effect overkill points. It is in the spirit of overkill, which is to represent the unit seeing their hero/champion being stomped and ripped asunder by another hero and his pet beastie and as the 7th edition book put it, "not wanting to stick around for a dose of the same."

Kloud13
26-06-2010, 21:07
yeah, but the max overkill bonus really screws us, always has. and now that more ranks give you stubborn.......

only way to use a dragon really, is to charge it in with another unit. than the unit champ can take the challenge leaving your dragon to rip apart the unit.

and double check, cause i'm sure strength 3 could not hut tougness 6 in 7th, but i don't have my rulebook handy atm.

shelfunit.
26-06-2010, 21:12
Yup, Str 3 can hurt T6.

GodlessM
26-06-2010, 21:19
S3 could always hurt T6. The way 7th work in general any given S couldn't hurt any T that was more than double it (with S1 as an exception). So T7+ could not be hurt by S3.

Kloud13
26-06-2010, 21:50
my bad. thanks for correcting me on that.

just curious, does 8th still only allow for +1 strength while mounted with a great-weapon

GodlessM
26-06-2010, 22:06
Nope, +2S :)

Freman Bloodglaive
26-06-2010, 22:07
No, you're back at +2 strength, always strikes last.

Arkh
26-06-2010, 22:09
S3 could always hurt T6. The way 7th work in general any given S couldn't hurt any T that was more than double it (with S1 as an exception). So T7+ could not be hurt by S3.

That's incorrect... The rule for 7th edition was if the Toughness was 4 or more higher than the Strength then it couldn't wound it.

The double +1 assumption doesn't work for any strength to toughness rating other than S3 against T7.

GodlessM
26-06-2010, 22:17
Actually it wasn't a rule at all, just that's how I thought it was, the only rule is the number in the wound chart. Either way, the point is S3 could always wound T6 as the wound chart says.

Kburn
27-06-2010, 02:37
for those saying that the dragon doesn't count as overkill, is it a rumour, or did you guys actually see 8th? I can't find it in the rumour thread.

If that's true, I'd probably spend another 40 points on the +3 attack sword...

Oberon
29-06-2010, 14:50
The overkill-bonus is still +5, but the rule concerning mounts is a bit tricky and I still can't understand it 100% So here:
"Challenges and Mounts
If a competitor is riding a mount, then that mount (including the crew of a chariot if the character is riding one) must direct its attacks against either the other competitor or that competitor's mount (if he is riding one). If the opponent is slain before all of a model's attacs are made (because a competitor and his mount strike at different Initiative steps, for example) then any excess Attacks are lost and cannot be directed against other models.

Excess wounds cauded against mounts count for the purposes of overkill. If a character is slain butr his mount is not, the mount will (after taking its Monster Reaction tests) continue fighting in the challenge until it or the foe is slain (or flees)."

Could be a bit clearer wording there, what do you think that says? It's from page 103 btw.

kaulem
29-06-2010, 15:07
It says that if your character strikes before it's mount and kills the opposing character, the mount has nothing left to strike against, therefore it doesnt attack.

GodlessM
29-06-2010, 15:28
Yea I don't se anything in there saying the mount can't contribute to overkill; it is just regulated that it is the one that kills the challenger.

Stonewyrm
29-06-2010, 15:35
Someone should ask GW if you can give magic weapons to mounts. Think of a Dragon with "Claws of I10" :eek:

hohenheim
29-06-2010, 15:36
Yea I don't se anything in there saying the mount can't contribute to overkill; it is just regulated that it is the one that kills the challenger.

For the case mentioned where a chaos lord is forced to challenge a unit champ, the lord would kill the champ (at I7) and the dragon wouldn't strike (I3) so effectively the mount can't contribute in many cases. Dragons are still useful in challenges against enemy characters, of course...

Oberon
29-06-2010, 15:39
How about, can the mount still strike the other characters mount if the hero riding it kills the other first? Like so:
HE prince on a star dragon vs empire general on a griffon
Prince strikes first with ASF and kills the general
Star dragon I quess has better In than griffon, can he still attack? What does the "opponent" mean there? I think you can, as the second paragraph says the mount keeps the challenge going. So you could at least generate the wounds/overkill from the mount.

But, if the general didn't have his chicken with him, can the dragon kill the late general even more?

Xcross
29-06-2010, 15:52
But, if the general didn't have his chicken with him, can the dragon kill the late general even more?

This made me really smile :p. I hope the mounts will still be useful, I just painted my DE manticore, I will be really mad if he becomes useless!

Col_Festus
29-06-2010, 15:59
I personally might try out a few high elf variations. The thing that is going to make it worth while for me is giving a mage Lore of Life. Every time he casts he can heal the dragon if its wounded. So Sure it takes a cannon ball that won't kill it. Magic comes along and he uses his lore of life a few times and puts wounds back on it. Then comes combat and the dragon is save from being shot.

Sure this is ideal but I think its going to be a good way to run them.

GodlessM
29-06-2010, 16:16
Someone should ask GW if you can give magic weapons to mounts. Think of a Dragon with "Claws of I10" :eek:

I hope this is a joke.

Reticent
29-06-2010, 16:18
Seems to me that if the mount is a more dangerous combatant than the rider then the rider should be equipped so as to 'Always Strike Last' garuanteeing that the mount is useful in challenges.

Shmee
29-06-2010, 17:58
Give your chaos lord a two-handed weapon and problem solved, dragon gets attacks before your lord.

kench1
01-07-2010, 17:02
Not only that but the Dragons Thunderstomp would strike at the same time as the guy on top with his ASL weapon.

Seems the only way to arm these guys, better than a lance !!

Vsurma
02-07-2010, 06:55
All the same though, most units will still only win the combat by 1 that way, so unless you have a counter-charge set-up it doesn't really matter unless they get a bad roll.

Oh and by huge counter charge he means a unit of skirmishers with a champ that will just challenge the dragon again.

At which point you have your 3 ranks, banner, charge, flank for 6 static, against whatever the lord can get with his 4 attacks. With 3s to hit and 2s to wound in most cases is 2.24 for an average of 2, 3 if your lucky.

Break test on - 3-4 awsome.

Btw I would charge with multiple said units so I could challenge again in the following turn.

But then, this would be a worst case scenario, with skirmishers losing 360 los, and movement spells disappearing from the brb, in truth most armies will have a hard time getting a counter charge like this off.

So most likely you will kill a champ turn 1, many in turn 2 (though you lose charge bonus to CR and lance bonus etc.), same in turn 3.

Doesn't seem so bad IF you can either snipe the champ out or charge in places that allow you to avoid an immediate counter charge.

Vsurma
02-07-2010, 06:59
That's incorrect... The rule for 7th edition was if the Toughness was 4 or more higher than the Strength then it couldn't wound it.

The double +1 assumption doesn't work for any strength to toughness rating other than S3 against T7.

The double +1 was for the "to hit" chart, where you needed 5s to hit if the opponents WS was double +1. Probably where the mix up came from.

Vsurma
02-07-2010, 07:03
I personally might try out a few high elf variations. The thing that is going to make it worth while for me is giving a mage Lore of Life. Every time he casts he can heal the dragon if its wounded. So Sure it takes a cannon ball that won't kill it. Magic comes along and he uses his lore of life a few times and puts wounds back on it. Then comes combat and the dragon is save from being shot.

Sure this is ideal but I think its going to be a good way to run them.

But is your mage going to survive said cannon ball, since they apparently hit both the rider and the dragon.

SevenSins
02-07-2010, 08:16
But is your mage going to survive said cannon ball, since they apparently hit both the rider and the dragon.

isn't there a life spell that grants regenration? might help a bit

Vsurma
02-07-2010, 09:30
Well, a regenerating lord on a dragon is still a good target for a cannon or bolt thrower. You really want to choose your lore just to survive on a dragon.

The DE rider is still fine with its pendant.
Others take a hit though, I think the WOC rider can get a 3+ ward which is ok, but still if I can cannons or bolts I would still target every last one of them in the direction of the dragon.

Casshole
02-07-2010, 10:26
I'm a big fan of the High Elf SC Eltharion. Both him and his mount get a 5 up ward and his griffin has one more wound and Initiative than the standard griff for a meer 5 points.

As for the OP, I wonder about the Dragon mage. he was already pretty poopy in 7th and now that flaming sword is only meh doesnt seem like theres as much potential for hard hittingness. His powerdice spam is alot better tho, and 2d6 st 2 hits in CC makes that puny bw on the sun dragon semi decent. I'm not a big fan of the lore of fire in the new edition either, tho it seems more versatile than the last edition.

I'll still probly use him tho cause i made a wicked conversion for him. such is Warhammer.

Kburn
03-07-2010, 15:08
The overkill-bonus is still +5, but the rule concerning mounts is a bit tricky and I still can't understand it 100% So here:
"Challenges and Mounts
If a competitor is riding a mount, then that mount (including the crew of a chariot if the character is riding one) must direct its attacks against either the other competitor or that competitor's mount (if he is riding one). If the opponent is slain before all of a model's attacs are made (because a competitor and his mount strike at different Initiative steps, for example) then any excess Attacks are lost and cannot be directed against other models.

Excess wounds cauded against mounts count for the purposes of overkill. If a character is slain butr his mount is not, the mount will (after taking its Monster Reaction tests) continue fighting in the challenge until it or the foe is slain (or flees)."

Could be a bit clearer wording there, what do you think that says? It's from page 103 btw.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but on the left hand side of that page, it says "If one MODEL slays another, the excess wounds count towards overkill", whereas the part of the page you quoted are talking more about excess attacks being lost instead of allocated against other models.

Since the dragon and rider is one model, doesn't all the attacks the model can make, regardless of initiative, count towards overkill?

What do you guys think?

Casshole
03-07-2010, 20:46
Seems to me that if a mounted character is fighting a character not mounted on a monster (as most mounts now share profile) and the opponent is killed by all the mount/char attacks before the other gets to go, the next attacks would be forfeit.

The rules for close combat is that the enemy is removed when he takes enough damage, not at the end of combat. The mount/char who have not attacked have no target and specifically cannto choose another target when their Iniative comes up (unless there is a monstrous mount that survived of course)

However if botht he mount and rider striek at same Iniitiative I believe they would get all the attacks, but I have a few more careful reads to go of the new brb before I have the intracacies down.

Kburn
04-07-2010, 00:57
Seems to me that if a mounted character is fighting a character not mounted on a monster (as most mounts now share profile) and the opponent is killed by all the mount/char attacks before the other gets to go, the next attacks would be forfeit.

The rules for close combat is that the enemy is removed when he takes enough damage, not at the end of combat. The mount/char who have not attacked have no target and specifically cannto choose another target when their Iniative comes up (unless there is a monstrous mount that survived of course)

However if botht he mount and rider striek at same Iniitiative I believe they would get all the attacks, but I have a few more careful reads to go of the new brb before I have the intracacies down.

In one of the paragraphs under challenges, they say "This is an exception to the rule stating a model can only suffer as many wounds on its profile..."

Well, you could be right I guess, that'll pigeon hole the dragon to attacking smaller units, or more elite units i guess... looks like the dragon has way more disadvantages this edition

Havock
04-07-2010, 16:52
in 3k points. With a level 4 sorcerer lord on top.

King_Pash
04-07-2010, 17:26
S3 could always wound a Dragon.

Yes, but with 5/6/7 wounds and no +1 for large target, S3 effectiveness will be limited. Sure you could waste your S3 shots shooting it but it will definitely get a save and mostly shrug it off. If anything, S3 has gotten WORSE against Dragons and large targets.


my bad. thanks for correcting me on that.

just curious, does 8th still only allow for +1 strength while mounted with a great-weapon

It allows +2 now, just like infantry.

Vsurma
04-07-2010, 17:31
True, but S2 is better :)

Beware those gnobblars! at least if they can all shoot, not sure if that rule for large targets exists anymore.

Oberon
04-07-2010, 17:51
2 ranks can fire, but after that it is assumed that their line of sight is blocked, so actually large targets suffer much less fire now. There is no rule for +1 to hit or "everybody can shoot" against large targets, so the 3rd paragraph on the left on page 39 is the one that counts:
"Models further back than the second rank of a unit are assumed to have their los blocked by models further forward, and so will not normally be able to shoot."
Now someone yells "hey! normally! Large targets are not normal, I must be able to shoot!", well there is volley fire which allows more ranks to fire. I say "normally" refers mainly to volleys and large targets take fire from only the first 2 ranks.

There isn't any "third rank can fire if on a hill"-rule either...

Large target-special rule means only that they can't take cover modifiers from obstacles, and their LD/re-roll aura (general/bsb) is 18".

So against warmachines dragons are much more vulnerable, against normal shooting, not so much.

HeroFox
04-07-2010, 19:00
My Star Dragon proudly sits on top of my shelf now.

Good bye my friend, you have served me well.

Braden Campbell
04-07-2010, 22:28
Interesting comments so far. I'll be keeping an eye on this thread as I look forwrds to using Asarnil and Deathfang in my Dogs of War army within the next few weeks.