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therisnosaurus
26-06-2010, 18:43
Comprehensive thoughts on eighth edition:

hey all, I throw up the occasional massive rant for the edification of all and sundry. I've been out of the mill for a little while now, busy with uni and other projects, but I thought the upcoming eighth edition warrants. I'm going to cover as much as possible from as many perspectives as possible, so I'll not waffle with the intro


The game:

Composition:
Hallelujiah. Percentage based comp coming back is the best thing since sliced gnoblar, in my opinion at least. Finally armies that fill their slots with ease are no longer so hamstrung by the slot limitations, and useful, cute but not hugely meaningful units can show their faces again now that people aren't trying to jam their few slots with the most powerful things that will fit. I think having a potential 50% heroes (25/25) is a bit too much, though. That leaves plenty of room for even the more expensive armies to throw out a dragon lord (though that leaves an interesting little quandary as to whether the dragon is taken from the lord or the hero category) and a few pimped out heroes.

On the other hand, it means that the more leadership lacking armies can afford a captain here or a black orc warboss there to lead just about every major combat block and still have plenty of spare points for mages and specialists like engineers. One thing I'm worried about is those armies that have a diversity of artillery. One of the key restrictions to artillery, which generally hits above its weight cost wise, was the slots they took up. For armies like elves, ogres and skaven this is no big thing, but for empire, dwarves and O&G who each have multiple artillery pieces spanning special and rare, the potential to load up on a ridiculous amount of artillery, whose hitting power and low footprint make their use in bulk extremely effective is somewhat worrysome. Combined with their improvements (empire mortars don't really suffer from the stone thrower nerf unless they get FAQed and dwarves can counteract it with a couple of runes of penetrating), I'm not looking forward to facing off against the neo-firing squad lists. Hopefully this gets erratted to '0-3' of any artillery piece

Movement:
Movement was the key phase in 7th and high movement models were disproportionately valuable. This was due to the measurability of charges that allowed a single point of movement to be critical in many situations. The charge changes remove this simple but critical point absolutely. On the other hand, as people have remarked, charge distances have increased by almost 50% on average for most infantry and can potentially match cavalry. This, as much as the buffs to infantry is a kick in the pants for cav, who now risk being charged and, not only being out ranked and outnumbered by their foes, but lose the substantial charge benefits they enjoy. Nevertheless, in any situation where a stable strength emerges, the main effort goes towards finding ways of subverting it. Since the stability in eighth seems clearly to lie in ranked infantry, all efforts will trend towards methods of getting rid of it. The simplest ways of doing this are artillery and rank breaking, so no doubt rank breaking will continue to play a major part, and to achieve this mobility is necessary. Combined with the change to percentage lists, I forsee an increase in smallish 12-15 man 'breaker' units of elite infantry.

Shooting:
Shooting has undoubtedly gotten more lethal but, as many have noted, in most cases you'll have significantly less time in which to do it. In most cases it will have little effect, however certain armies will have more significant benefits which I'll go over later. One significant note about shooting is, as for many armies charging has little benefit, shooting becomes an incentive for defensive units. A case study might be a unit of high elf spearmen vs clanrats. It is better for the clanrats to wait for the elves to charge them, as the elves will lose a rank of attacks (assuming spears still need to be static), that is probably better than the +1 combat rez and potential of getting flanked since they moved out of their line that the clanrats gain from charging. However, should the elves be sea guard, the clanrats (or nearby support units) must endure a scattering of arrows each turn for their caution. Many similar situations can be envisioned where the potential to stand still and throw out a round of shooting can lure an unwilling enemy into charges they really don't want to make. As has been noted earlier, certain armies can spam out war machines a lot more effectively than before, so that's not so cool.

Combat:
My, my, my. They have been listening to us after all. I won't dwell too long here, much of what can be said already has. Still, for all the increased lethality of combat, at least in the early days of this new edition we can expect the game to involve a lot more stabbing and a lot less staggering forward and back. The stubborn bonus for outranking and lack of auto break mean that any reasonably cheap army can make a wall of troops that must be hacked through one by one, taking return fire all the while. Meanwhile, elite armies will be even more reliable in winning the fights they get into vs less pricey enemies. In most cases the changes to initiative will have little further effect, as everyone will get to fight anyway, dead or alive, but in the particular case of support units like fast cavalry and skirmishers, it will matter a great deal, as it means they will do their often solid damage will connect before their small number is depleted by return blows. Units like skeleton or goblin cavalry, small units of low I monsters like ogres and kroxigor and commando skirmishers like shades and censer bearers that suffer from ASL or low initiative are getting a serious kick in the teeth, as even charging a ten man missile unit is now a phenomenally risky business what with SaS and getting a fist upside the head before they even get a swing in.

What this means is that battles will be more grinding, messy affairs that will involve the removal of more models one by one rather than whole large units getting run down or panicked off the table. Such feats are still possible, naturally, but a good general will be able to make an excellent defensive anvil for very little outlay compared to 7th, protect its flanks more efficiently and generally not need to take so many risks. While there is the potential to charge out a huge distance, doing so will no doubt leave the charger vulnerable to a counter charge by nearby enemy units and, having been broken due to flank and loss of stubborn, combined with the ability for the foe to free reform after said beating, makes such heroic actions somewhat foolhardy.

Far better, it seems, to march forward as a great mass of serried ranks, flanked by smaller anchor units with native stubbornness or unbreakability. Fliers will be unquestionably valuable for their ability to manoeuver more easily around these battle lines and target war machines, flankers and key heroes attempting to garner their protection, while other support units become less able to get around so efficiently.

Magic:
Magic has become a lot harder to control deliberately, leading to a more even but varied contest which I think is fantastic. However, while utter dominance seems less plausible, the power of spells has increased massively, particularly in the buff department. I shudder to contemplate the effects of a horde of pikemen under the sway of okkam's mindrazor. 50 strength 7 attacks? Oh my... Since actually killing everything you're fighting is now somewhat more important, I think these hex/buff spells will become used a lot more. That said, some of the destructive spells are just not funny either, easily on par with gateway in terms of potential lethality. It seems that scrolls may be one per character now, so one wizard magic defense seems implausible.

The armies with cheapish generic wizard lords might cope very well indeed by simply investing in a level 4 'caddy' to get the +4 dispel bonus that, combined with a defensive item will do a decent job of holding off even a pretty significant magic phase. This will no longer preclude them from getting the vital leadership anchor combat lord and will even give them a decent offensive support in turns where the flows of magic are in their favour and doubles get rolled (the ideal situation in a magic phase offensively is to roll a double, as this maximises the amount of dice you have over the opponent)

For most armies, however, a larger amount of low level wizards seems more advantageous. There was mention that level 1's can only take the default spell, if that's the case it's a problem, but otherwise, 4 level 1 wizards is far better offensively than one level 4, being harder to eliminate, generate 4 channel rolls and, of course, matter a bit less if they explode spectacularly (I want to try goblin suicide mage tactics if they use the new table, charging into combat and then casting a spell on every single dice I get to not only guarantee the spell, but hopefully take a lot more than 50 points worth of elite enemy with the little bugger)

The sheer variety and power of spells in the generic lores makes armies capable of using them all significantly more capable. While you can't pick and choose against your enemy, I foresee armies like high elves and empire focusing on augment/hexes to guarantee buffs for their friendly units. high elf spears with the mindrazor are almost as, if not more scary than pikemen.

Psychology:
Psych is (thank god) going to have less of a chaotic effect on the battlefield. No more fear and terror making random units crap their daks and run for the hills without even showing a blade. Bigger, more stable units and battle lines means panic will be a little less dangerous than it is now, though perhaps more so in certain instances. A cunning general might be able to invoke a mass panic by driving a support unit through the main line with a well angled attack, unless planned, such occurences are certainly going to be rarer


The armies:

Empire:
empire get a few decent benefits from the new rules. They benefit greatly from the new composition and shooting rules, have a wide choice of magic with which to support their key blocks. Multiple mortars can ensure that your chaps will out-rank the enemy, and a couple of large units of pistoliers can not only ensure that is doubly so, but seal the deal with an appropriate rear charge. Goodly sized detachments are also probably the best breakers available in the new rules, halberdiers probably, with spearmen or swordsmen acting as solid main units. Empire armies are unlikely to change a great deal, though knights will probably become less prevalent as their increased vulnerability to being charged and lack of ability to dish out the pain to the extent of other elite cavalry makes them risky. On the other hand, empire is one of the few armies that can really afford to field a substantial heavy cavalry force in the new rules, as units of ten or twelve knights aren't prohibitively expensive and, since a lot more effort will be focused into whittling down huge ranks of infantry, will probably perform better than expected, especially with heavy magical support

Orcs and Goblins:
I play goblins, and I'm loving these new rules. While there's a few nasty little daggers like the panic changes, for the most part goblins have just gotten infinitely better. The composition changes mean you can get your artillery, chariots, squigs, giants and trolls all in the same list, which gives you plenty of tricksy things to add to your now somewhat more steadfast ankle-biters. The ability to throw a warlord or at least a big boss into half your units doesn't hurt either. Unfortunately, goblin light cav are now rather weak due to their low initiative and orc cav are in the same basket, though they remain another one of those few heavy cavalry that are feasible to field in ranks, thus making them viable flankers. O&G have the cheapest wizards of all races, and can most afford to rule the magic phase by tossing out six goblin shaman, each of whom can channel, and each of whom can dive into an enemy unit and explode in a greeny-brown mushroom cloud as outlined above.

Orcs are actually somewhat lacking in the infantry department. Large bases make their hordes somewhat unwieldy and orcs have some of the worst hitting power point for point of all races, since the few really nasty tenderisers they have rely on multiple hand weapons or frenzy (in the case of savage orcs, both) which don't really work that well with the stepping up rule and are rather vulnerable to return attacks. Black orcs are probably the best performers, but compared to their equivalents they just don't cut the mustard, being more fragile than dwarf equivalents and less hitty than elves.

Finally, orcs perhaps benefit most of all races (perhaps tying with wood elves) from the new common magic items list, giving them reliable heavy armor, ward saves, bonus attacks, aggressive banners and more (black orc warlord with 8 attacks anyone?)

Bretonnia:
One of the older lists, the Bretonnians are actually not that bad in the new rules since they can get ranks easily enough on their cav. This means that they'll be able to rank break with a palatable six knights instead of ten. They also get the ability to swing those big unwieldy lances around like it's 1999 with the abundance of free-reform opportunities. On the other hand, they benefit far less than other armies from a bunch of new rules like stepping up and are kind of weak off the charge. I see big units of questing knights getting a lot more floor space as the 'front units' with the cheaper lance reliant errants and realm knights in smaller numbers acting as rankbreakers and support cavalry. While brett infantry are solid enough with a knight hanging around, since bretts will remain one of the few armies that can make a cavalry focus work to an extent, and if you want to play ****** peasants why not try an army that does it well, I don't see many people changing it up. All we'll see is some subtle type changes and probably an overall increase in scale of the average knight unit.

Ogre Kingdoms:
Ogres get a lot of benefits from the new rules. Three model ranks, extra impact hits (assuming the new rules don't replace bull charge), less worries with being outnumbered. Weight for weight, ogres are actually very good at bashing their way through infantry units, just not at breaking them, and they're vulnerable to the heavy cavalry that dominated this edition. They get a good benefit from the new magic items selection and, most importantly, they have probably the best horde unit in the game, gnoblars! 2 points, it can shoot, it's as hard to kill as any other conscript unit (still t3) and a 50 gnoblar horde costs a mere 100 points for something that's basically guaranteed to be stubborn for quite a few turns on ld9 with re-rolls if you position it in front of a unit of say leadbelchers with a BSB and tyrant with handguns. Swing in some units of bulls on the flanks and you've got quite the gorka-morka strategy. What with the less effective march blocks, ogres can quickly head up the flanks and they're cheap enough to have enough bulls to make a mess of things when they get there. Ogres can also throw out a bunch of single maneaters and gorgers now to play havoc with the enemy positioning and have actually some very solid shooting support with the scraplauncher- another semi-stonethrower largely unaffected by the negative changes but benefiting massively from the positives.

All in all, it may require some fancy tactics, but I think ogres will reward a good general exceptionally well in this new edition, more so than any other list.



Vampire counts:
Vampires have taken a beating in the press, but careful examination shows that they are certainly not too badly hit. The traditional core of a VC army, skellingtons, have certainly gone a bit to pot, as have their cavalry, which are now next to useless (well, blood knights are still very nasty, but also a lot more vulnerable since they can't be death starred so hard, get hit back and usually won't be able to roll over a ranked unit). On the other hand, ghouls are now fantastic due to their poisoned attacks, decent initiative, respectable cost and toughness.

The big thing to realise is that, in the absence of some adjustments and errata, vampire spellcasting just went through the roof. The +2 power dice power with a summoning power on a vampire lord is just silly, and guess what? You can take two of them in a 2250 list now. That's an average magic phase of 11-12 attempts of summoning with a +3 bonus to cast. Anything but a 1! 7-8 d6 worth of extra models every turn and that's before we start on heroes. So, while the undead can't really rely on fear autobreaks any more, they can certainly horde it up with the best of them, and with ghouls and wights being amongst the best units in their points brackets overall, VC definitely have options. Add to this that they still have some of the better flying units around in fellbats and, of course, the inordinately choppy wraiths which are capable of chewing through a rank or two of basic infantry a turn, don't really give a toss about the enemy being able to attack back and are extremely mobile, thus excellent for pissing off all and sundry.

therisnosaurus
26-06-2010, 18:44
Daemons:
Ah, daemons, how far the mighty have fallen. Unlike vampires, daemons can't bring their expensive models back and, nasty as they continue to be, they will suffer greatly from having whoever they fight get to punch them in the face no matter what carnage they wreak. Bloodletters have benefited a lot offensively, getting the extra rank of attacks and having high initiative will make them a thorny proposition, but ultimately, other armies have better units for the same cost, more able to weather the pokes and prods of the squishy foes. Bloodcrushers can't barrel through a front so well any more. Daemonettes, horrors and plaguebearers have all suffered fairly significant hits, flesh hounds, fiends, seekers and the other fast and nasties won't break ranks if they flank a unit any more and outnumber autobreak is gone, so daemons will get tarpitted horribly vs the big bulky infantry units which will be everywhere. Daemon armies will probably retract to the more durable units or try and use deathstar super units capable of shredding many ranks of opposition in one round to win the day, relying on their powerful support units to counter those of the enemy instead of going for the line. It's also worth noting that the special greater demons and even tricked out regular ones won't fit into the 25% lord allowance in 2000 and barely into the 2250, so demon players can't compensate by making a super daemon lord of super doom super.

Lizardmen:
lizards are kind of sitting in the middle. They benefit a good bit from the common magic items, as the lizard magic item set is fairly weak. They benefit from a lot, but they also suffer from a fair deal as well. I have a huge lizard army and I want to play them in the new edition, but I'm unsure how to go about it. Big blocks of saurus will be an absolute nightmare to shift, and they're cheap enough you can do that with them. Initiative 1 hardly matters any more, and 1 point spears for an extra rank of str 4 attacks is certainly worth it given the Hw/S has been cut down a bit. While they're super durable, they really suffer compared to a lot of other units from the second and third ranks only getting 1 attack. Skink cohorts are somewhat more effective now, in small units of 12-14 they make good rank breakers/flankers and aren't the easiest to get rid of due to a solid stand and shoot. However, using them is a gamble, particularly against multi attack models that can cut down enough to reduce them below ten models, losing you the rank break and putting you some extra points of rez down. Units of 6 or so kroxigor led by a scar veteran bsb with the re-rolls common banner look downright frightening and salamanders are even more nasty than they used to be. A carnosaur mounted oldblood also has the potential to be one of the nastiest pieces of work in the game now with a strength 7 thunderstomp, a potential 13 regular attacks and a 1+/4+ save (using common magic items), you might not be breaking many units due to stubborn, but you're probably not going to lose many combats or dying any time soon either.

Dwarfs:
The stunties I think have benefited almost most of all of all armies. Their shooting has gotten significantly stronger, both regular and artillery. They, of all races, get the most comparative benefit from the stepping up rule- all of their models have 1 attack (so they never get the penalty multi attack models do) and these attacks are more often than not going to be with great weapons (since they were gonna be attacking last anyway, and HW/S isn't so great anymore). They can be more aggressive, play an MSU style extremely effectively (multiple small units of hammerers and slayers offer tough speedbumps, and no longer prevent you getting a solid ironbreaker unit or two, oh and some artillery). They've got a lot of potential to make some really nasty deathstar units (big unit of great weapon warriors with three or four cheap thanes in the front rank springs to mind, only five hundred points or so but hard to kill, hard to break and able to dish out an obscene amount of reliable damage, especially if deployed as a horde)

All up, I'm not gonna be looking forward to fighting dwarfs in future...


Wood elves:
I'm not sure about the woodies. They've gotten some nice benefits to their archers with the constant fire in two ranks and reform ability, but the skirmish front of their army has been really decimated. On the other hand, blocks of treekin are downright frightening now, treemen are tougher than ever with thunderstomp, a new magic item list is available and eternal guard are pretty solid, it's almost as if they were designed for 8th edition. At the moment the wood elf list seems to win usually by zerging with skirmishers and fast cav, which isn't going to work so well any more. They'll need to be more cautious, whittle down infantry units with archery and magic before using the glade guard to outrank them and the assorted heavy hitters to get the combat rez going. Treekin, treeman and eternal guard anvils will be essential in assisting this style of play. Wood elf skirmishers are still very good against other support units due to their high initiative and hitting power, but their strength is in multiple attacks and that means massing them simply won't be that effective. As second ranks will drop off in power significantly. Unfortunately this means we may just see a return to the hundred gazzillion MSU archer unit style of early 6th edition in the tournament scene, as a points denial game seems most valid at this time. (though I can totally see a 10 treekin regiment in 2 ranks of 5 getting out there and making a mess of faces :P)

Dark elves:
Still very good. In fact, still extremely good, but like many armies, dark elves relied on hitting hard, not getting hit back and breaking. Combat is going to be infinitely more grinding in 8th, especially for armies that don't have big hordes of units. Dark elves are the most fragile of the elven lists (dragon lord excluded >.>) and they're going to suffer from it worse from now on. Black guard are still fantastic, of course, but suffer from losing an attack from their second rank and only being able to get a 5+ save. Ditto for executioners. Double ditto for witch elves (which are kind of terrible now, though useable in an MSU format- 7-8 in one rank as a flanking unit, which is now plausible due to percentage based comp. Triple ditto for shades. You get the idea. Dark elf shooting, of course, is now perhaps the most lethal in the game (except for the new and improved dwarfs, of course), and big units of crossbowmen not only make lethal shooting units, but a free reform later and they're a solid tarpit. Big hordes of DE warriors are also pretty decent due to hatred and synch well with a dedicated okkam's mindrazorer. - 30 odd attacks, re-rolling misses at strength 8, yes please. Defintely knocked down a notch but still in the top tier due to sheer versatility


High elves:
A lot of people have been giving high elves flack for being really nasty in the new edition and they're correct- they are. But not for the reasons most think. Even more than DE they suffer from the grindyness of combat, but unlike DE they actually have decent responses- both phoenix guard and white lions carry over to eight better than their equivalents, while sword masters got spanked as hard as witch elves, really. The really nasty thing about white lions is their MSU ability with stubborn in the new rules. Not quite as bad as dwarf hammerers, but still really not cool. Phoenix guard are among the best balanced infantry in the game, particularly with an offensive magic standard (armor piercing for example). 5+/4+ save, cause fear, ld9, re-roll to hit against anything but enemy heroes and other elite elves, just solid all around. Not so solid that they won't lose a combat where they get flanked by a decent sized ranked unit though, and high elves really don't have that many other effective tricks to stop that happening. A few decent sized blocks and they're already half their points down. Phoenix guard might be tough against shooting, but high elves suffer the most of any race from getting rocks or arrows dropped on them. Their basic trooper is 9 points, 13 for the likely-to-be-more-popular seaguard, and they still die to a stone thrower or arrow just as easily as a 4 point goblin. Most other races now don't need to get a lord to have a thunderstomp capable monster and, while high elf units look like they can hold their own, to actually win combats they'll need heroes in the units, not galavanting around on flappy lizard things. On the upside, high elf have the cream of the crop as far as heavy cav go in the new edition- dragon princes. 2 attacks, re-rolling misses, fast movement and reasonable cost means you can throw out a couple of 5 or 6 man units to harry enemy support troops very reasonably.

High elf mages are also going to be pretty good, due to their nice magic item selections, wide lore choices (including a solid lore in their own book to fall back on). A free +1 to dispel, the new and improved lore of fire making dragon mages more solid with a very good basic spell, an excellent unit buff, and a nice selection of anti-horde spells (bolts and cage), not to mention the dragon's thunderstomp and breath weapon increasing the proportional ability of the sundragon compared to his bigger brethren, a lore of life archmage and a dragon mage make for a very solid offense and defence combo team that can help your units overcome their fragile nature (go go toughness 7 elves



Warriors of chaos:
Huge buffs here. No more autobreak, warrior halberdiers/greatweaponeers are now amazing powerhouses and nurgle marauders with great weapons are the best horde/tarpit going with appropriate leadership support. Chaos knights are actually good enough to take on infantry units so long as they don't have great weapons and while they won't break them, they'll slowly chew through them and probably not take much of a hit in return, not to mention they can get a re-roll banner now. Khorne knights with eternal hatred? Awww yeahhh. Chaos trolls are an excellent bargain unit to support your lord, the cheapest st5 monster going. Hellcannons are just wrong, warshrines and spawn become more accessible without sacrificing too much and doggies are pretty much the best mobile breaker in the game- 90 points for 15 is plenty to make sure the big fight goes your way. Definitely one of the top tier lists.


Skaven:
I'm not exactly sure with these guys as the list is quite new and I haven't had a chance to get to terms with it. Still, this new edition is all about what skaven do best- lock em in and grind em down. Good leadership that can now be spread around even more due to multiple lords, cheap and effective support units which do their job due to high I, good shooting for wearing down elite enemy quickly, amazing horde potential. Unfortunately skaven magic is somewhat worse than it once was due to lack of the hard offense it needs. Buffing skaven units is usually not going to help them a great deal. Rat ogres are the bargain basement monster unit, a deathstar of 8 only setting you back 300 odd points and putting out 32 str 5 attacks at I4. Plenty of potential to roll that into the flank once you've tarred the enemy down, and there won't be many left after that. Small units of plague monks with furnaces can go after enemy elites (c'mere high elves) with impunity, casting all the way. Skaven will be a pain in the butt, in a totally new way!



Summing up:

Powerhouses: Pretty hard to make a bad list
High elves
Dwarfs
Warriors of chaos
Empire
Skaven


Middling: requires careful choosing to be as good as it gets
O&G
Ogres
Dark elves
Beastmen
Lizardmen

Worrysome: potentially powerful, but only in rather annoying ways, otherwise fairly weak.
Wood elves
Daemons
bretonnia

White_13oy
26-06-2010, 18:58
What about Tomb Kings :)

GodlessM
26-06-2010, 19:00
Daemons weak? Dude seriously all they have lost is outbreak and Plaguebearers, that's all, and Brets are actually slighty better now (see the Bret thread).

Witchblade
26-06-2010, 19:05
DoC bottom tier... lol.

theorox
26-06-2010, 19:13
DoC bottom tier... lol.

It's sort of an exaggeration, yes. But certainly not mcuh higher than the middle of the pack.

Good. Stupid Daemons... :D

Theo

indytims
26-06-2010, 19:14
Demons bottom-tier?

That's a good laugh right there. The rest of the article is a pretty decent read, though. :)

Kalandros
26-06-2010, 19:29
Ghouls sadly lose out on one MAJOR change: No Musician, no Free Reforms.

Archaon
26-06-2010, 19:33
I believe it's far too early to tell about 8th edition with any certainty.

I was able to read the book last evening at my local dealer but since i was very tired (early get up and a work day) i didn't read much detail but i believe the game has changed so much that any 7th tactics and army compositions have to be severy reworked.

Additionally.. as much as it is already known about the rules there are still details one hasn't taken into account which change the entire battle plan.. for example the Hydra has even become better than before due to the 2d6 S5 hits it deals with the breath weapon (breath weapons deal 2d6 automatic hits with the strength of the monster in its first combat of the game) in the first close combat on top of their normal attacks that follow (with hatred). It is next to guaranteed it will break its first opponent on its own which may be a huge deal depending on the unit.

I'm a bit unnerved by all the whining and teeth gnashing about 8th... met a long time player yesterday in the store and talked shortly bout 8th.. guess what, he's a total opponent of 8th and has a low opinion but knowing him it means he has to rework his armies and rethink his strategies and that pisses him off.

Personally i welcome 8th and may play Warhammer for the first time in almost a year now.

honorandglory
26-06-2010, 19:48
Daemons weak? Dude seriously all they have lost is outbreak and Plaguebearers, that's all, and Brets are actually slighty better now

Really, so Deamons don;t have to worry about Supporting attacks,interesting:rolleyes:. And what do the Bretonnians do if they get charged? Is it magically better than when they got charged in 7th? With the Random Charge range they may now get charged by the infantry that almost never charged them in earlier editions, couple that with their less than stellar Initiative, and most mainline combat units being stubborn against them and yes they are ending in a rather low tier position.

Oberon
26-06-2010, 19:59
You really can't keep throwing invocations with one die if you want to keep casting through the whole pile of dice as you'll still need that 3+ to pass. The items-list I saw had reroll-banner for 55 points, 5 more than knights can pay so no "hatred" for them either. I kinda agree about daemons but then again don't. Not with that army book, people just need other units than 6 flesh hounds and 10 horrors over and over again to win.

GodlessM
26-06-2010, 20:22
I love how people try to argue how certain armies got 'worse' based on them suffering more attacks against them and intentionally neglecting the fact that they also have more attacks to dish out, especially when we are talking about hard hitters like the Daemons.

Kerill
26-06-2010, 20:25
You've obviously spent a bit of time on this, personally I think:

Empire I agree got a bit of a boost, especially some of the less used war machines and with nice cheap infantry.

Bretonnia: I think are going to be about the same- they have the best flyer and best pure stone thrower in the game (by a far bit now). Lance helps them break infantry and a 2+/5+ save is nice. They have very cheap infantry with easily boosted leadership and I think they will need to mix peasants and knights to get the most out of their army in 8th.

Ogres- Some definite boosts but stepping up hurts them quite a bit. Now a bit more scary than before though and can not take their level 4 caster. Changes to RIP also help their magic. Scraplauncher got a major boost.

Daemons- Definitely got a lot weaker (step up, changes to fear, GD apart from thirster can't be maxed anymore and jugger heralds have a reduced save and can be targetted with artillery). Still a lot weaker is still strong.



Lizards: I think they are about the same in 8th as 7th. Some things got better, some worse and they now have a much easier time with taking specials.

Dwarves: Got a serious boost, although depending on the FAQ they may suffer a lot more from magic since it has got stronger.

Dark Elves- Very nearly as strong although some dirt lists like the shadestar will no longer work and deathstar BG might run into trouble as well. Spearmen are one of the best cheap infantry troops in the game and the hydra is now even more powerful- 7 re-rollable attacks and 3D6 autohitting S5 attacks. Thats 15 S5 hits on the first charge. The ring (unless it gets FAQ'd) is still there and cauldrons have got even better. Shooting has got better as well.

High Elves- Swordmasters may have got better depending on what rumour you believe. Book of Hoeth (or Teclis) and the new lores means they will have the strongest magic phase in 8th edition. HE Spearmen are also uite possibly the best anti-horde unit in the game now. Star dragon lists will be a bit more tricky at 2250 points sinc ethe lord will have limited equipment.

WOC- Major buffs to several units. Magic is (relatively with the new lores) not as scary as before but still very good. Chaos infantry is now very useful. Hellcannon is now excellent at both shooting and combat (rather than mediocre at both) and no range guessing means WOC now have a decent answer to dragons and greater daemons beyond gateway and have infantry that can actually hold.

Skaven- Got even better, top tier.

DOW- quite a boost for them as well.

Chaos Dwarves- A boost here as well

VC- got weaker, regardless of power dice invo spam is not as easy as before since 1or2 means no more casting from that wizard. Loss of autobreak is a big one and their troops are now overcosted. Depending on scenarios the ghoul lack of a standard may well hurt as well. Also every army potentially has an answer to the drakenhoff banner. Still a strong army without a doubt but no longer pure cheese.

Wood Elves- no idea

One problem is though that many armies seem to have got a potential boost which thus is not really as big a boost as it seems since if most things get boosted in fact nothing has (to some extent).

2theDeath
26-06-2010, 20:27
Enjoyed that Therisnosaurus,
Thanks.

Goblin Gonads
26-06-2010, 20:49
wow, articulate, thoughtfull, a good read, no invective, rhetoric or abuse! This is Warseer isn't it? Damn fine read that man. Will have to play a few before I can decide if I agree with some of your thoughts but that was the most enjoyable read on here for some time.

honorandglory
26-06-2010, 21:26
I love how people try to argue how certain armies got 'worse' based on them suffering more attacks against them and intentionally neglecting the fact that they also have more attacks to dish out, especially when we are talking about hard hitters like the Daemons

You actually think that Deamon units are hard hitters, in what game are we talking,definitely not warhammer 8th ED. Any unit of empire, skaven ,Orks will destroy deamon units. Which have T3 and a 5+ save( whoo scary) and either one attack or str3.

I love how people try to argue how certain armies did not get 'worse' based on absolutely nothing, and intentionally negating the fact that they took some pretty decent hits in this edition.

GodlessM
26-06-2010, 21:29
Thing is those Empire units and Skaven units mostly have 1 attack andS3, ad they also have T3 and either a 5+ save or lower, and that save can be altered unlike the Daemons'. Also, good luck with those low Ltd units passing a fear test every single turn. Daemonettes can also obtain ASF and thus Hatred with a Herald. Bloodletters and Daemonettes still maul all but the most hardiest of infantry, and I have seen this for myself on several occasions at the club testing 8th, so good luck with your theoryhammer.

madden
26-06-2010, 21:30
The op forgot tomb kings(will need mssive FAQ ) and beastmen on them I think slightly better due to step up and lore of beasts but they cost to much to hoard and have little/no armour and fairly low int but there big un's got better, as said a good few games and we will see.

honorandglory
26-06-2010, 21:50
Daemonettes can also obtain ASF and thus Hatred with a Herald.

So 5 wide is 15 attacks hitting with 12 and wounding with 6.And yet are still taking 10 attacks back. 1/2 hit and 1/2 wound with 1/3 saving, which means 2 or so dead per turn( STR3 T3 no save Empire/Skaven unit). From unit that is larger and cheaper and will very rarely break(or fail the Fear check)with the General and BSB with in 12. The herald is not going to last much beyond 2 combat rounds with a 5+ save at best.
Combat res is a loss by 2 and still no reduction in combat power what so ever to the Empire or Skaven unit whereas the Deamonetts lose combat res for each model they lose( be it Active or static) unless in a points intensive large unit.Yep that definitely looked like a mauling to me:rolleyes:.

GodlessM
26-06-2010, 22:24
Ok I'm going to just click that button again because the obvious lack of being able to count above stuns me that it isn't worth my time. I don't care enough to do a full mathhammer analysis, but from the figures you have given, if the Daemonettes have done 6 wounds and only taken 2 back, their CR is 6 wounds + banner + 2 ranks = 9, and the Empire's (assuming a 5x5 unit) is 2 wounds + banner + 2 ranks = 4, and the Empire lose by 5, not the Daemons losing by 2. With both units having the same amount of ranks the Empire are not stubborn and in a standard Ltd8 army are testing on 3's, so even with a BSB are likely to flee.

So through both your lack of experience in actually playing 8th edition, and your lack of ability to run theoryhammer you have just been leading yourself in a hole with this one. I'm going to leave it at that with my point proven and just clikc my ignore button now...

Good night.

honorandglory
26-06-2010, 23:07
So you are assuming that the units are the same size ? And here I was assuming we were using units we would actually see on the battlefield. Like a unit of 18 Deamonetts with a Herald at 366. Or A unit of 50 Imperial Halberdiers with 15 man Swordsmen Detachment at 360. Silly me. I guess I thought you knew anything about this game and how it is actually played, I suppose I was wrong on that one.:rolleyes:.

GreyHam
26-06-2010, 23:09
Ok I'm going to just click that button again because the obvious lack of being able to count above stuns me that it isn't worth my time. I don't care enough to do a full mathhammer analysis, but from the figures you have given, if the Daemonettes have done 6 wounds and only taken 2 back, their CR is 6 wounds + banner + 2 ranks = 9, and the Empire's (assuming a 5x5 unit) is 2 wounds + banner + 2 ranks = 4, and the Empire lose by 5, not the Daemons losing by 2. With both units having the same amount of ranks the Empire are not stubborn and in a standard Ltd8 army are testing on 3's, so even with a BSB are likely to flee.

So through both your lack of experience in actually playing 8th edition, and your lack of ability to run theoryhammer you have just been leading yourself in a hole with this one. I'm going to leave it at that with my point proven and just clikc my ignore button now...

Good night.
Your obvious lack of being able to count stuns me

Asmodai48
27-06-2010, 02:26
Your obvious lack of being able to count stuns me

Lol... He speaks the truth

therisnosaurus
27-06-2010, 05:25
Ghouls sadly lose out on one MAJOR change: No Musician, no Free Reforms.

yeah, not sure how much of an effect this is going to have. Ideally, you just want to run forward and then perpetually tarpit an enemy until you wear them down, leaving the fancy dancy stuff to wights/wolves. the reform ability will be more useful for shooting units or multi use units that want to switch between stubborn-bunkers and damage-dealers by altering their rank width.


Additionally.. as much as it is already known about the rules there are still details one hasn't taken into account which change the entire battle plan.. for example the Hydra has even become better than before due to the 2d6 S5 hits it deals with the breath weapon (breath weapons deal 2d6 automatic hits with the strength of the monster in its first combat of the game) in the first close combat on top of their normal attacks that follow (with hatred). It is next to guaranteed it will break its first opponent on its own which may be a huge deal depending on the unit.

Didn't know breath weapons were at strength. But again, the hydra won't break a unit on its own, if outranked it will be stubborn-blocked. On the other hand, with thunderstomp *as well* it's probably still the best monster as far as just chewing through ranks is concerned, which is very important. That also makes sun dragons significantly better, I honestly don't really see the reason for going a star dragon now.



Thing is those Empire units and Skaven units mostly have 1 attack andS3, ad they also have T3 and either a 5+ save or lower, and that save can be altered unlike the Daemons'. Also, good luck with those low Ltd units passing a fear test every single turn. Daemonettes can also obtain ASF and thus Hatred with a Herald. Bloodletters and Daemonettes still maul all but the most hardiest of infantry, and I have seen this for myself on several occasions at the club testing 8th, so good luck with your theoryhammer.


Since my assertion that daemons are tricky now seems to have met with some scorn, I should clarify that I did not tier the armies based on potential power, but on average power. I think daemons will still have the potential to be a very nasty list, but unfortunately I think this will be more by massing flamers, flying demons, deathstar units of letters led by multiple heralds and so forth, but even these are now a bit more finnicky. There are plenty of ways of dealing with such deathstars now- MSU stubborn/unbreakable bombing them, dropping rocks on them, shooting the poop out of them etc. Shooting is going to have more of an impact since previously daemons didn't really care unless you killed three quarters of their unit, now it's more like 1/3rd.

The example I'll cite is 25 bloodletters and a jugger herald (560 odd points) vs an defensive arch lector and 60ish halberdiers (520ish points).

Now, whatever formation the letters take, if they charge, I will reform to adopt an optimal counter, so let's say the letters deploy 6 wide, meaning my halberdiers will be 9 wide (if the letters deploy 7 wide, I go to 10 and become a horde, if they go to ten they're going to be rather unwieldy and won't actually get much benefit from it since they'll only get bonuses on the first round)

The letters charge in, getting 9 attacks plus the herald. given hatred, we can assume that the 9 letters pretty much kill their men outright, and let's say the herald knocks off 4 (to attack my arch lector would be a bad idea since he has a 1+ /2+ vs the herald's flaming attacks)

now, my halberdiers get 18 attacks back, plus the lector. some quick math (not sure about exact accuracy) yields 13 ish hits (I have hatred too remember) > 8 wounds> 5 dead letters. Throw in another 1 for the arch lector, being conservative and biasing all the math towards the letters.

Halberdiers lose 13> 47
letters lose 6> 18

I outrank, am stubborn and pretty much guaranteed to stay around.

next turn hatred goes away, so the letters kill 6 this time around, the herald finishes off another 3.

in return, the halberdiers hit back again for 18>9>6>4 wounds, the lector adding another 1.

halberdiers lose 9> 38
letters lose 5> 13

same again next turn

38>29
13> 8

and (just) next turn

29>20
8>3

but from here, it's downhill for the bloodletters . with a mere 3 attacks to start chipping into the halberdier's return fire (plus the herald), chances are that the herald will end up on his lonesome. He might end up finishing them off, but without a unit, he's now easy pickings.

Now this example assumes that the bloodletters never whiff their attacks. the empire don't really care if they whiff theirs, they stay standing regardless, but if the empire win, the letters aren't stubborn and will probably lose a fair amount of models to the subsequent instability. If the letters sink a load of attacks into trying to take out the arch lector, those attacks won't be killing halberdiers and so the letters may just lose the combat with the same result.

There's a fundamental mistake daemon players are making in assuming they'll be able to 'cut through' enemy units. The default block size for 4-6 point infantry these days is around 25. In 8th it'll be closer to 50. There was no point to this in 7th- only the front rank attacked, and rank bonus capped at 3. Extra models were just free points for elites that could roll over them and make them test on snake eyes. Now, not only will those extra ranks give them stubborn, but a 50 man unit may be able to attack in three or four ranks, making those extra models the minimum ablative wounds to keep combat effectiveness.

With only 1 attack on bloodletters, nasty as they are, they'll take a long time to chew through fifty or sixty infantry, infantry that str3/ws3 though it may be, will be constantly chipping away. against other elites, they are evenly matched, but other elites are usually a lot tougher against magic and shooting. daemonettes suffer just as much, plaguebearers less so, but their main benefit just got nullified and they're going to be losing combats outright to weaker troops.

Simply put, daemonic troops suffer more than any other from having to actually *fight* the enemy, instead of walking over them. Undead, the closest can get back up and actually have tarpit units of their own that can be used to break stubborn enemies (zombies!)

and, strong as daemon support units are, they are now support units. You simply can't roll over a block by flanking them with flesh hounds or fiends (unless the flesh hound unit is huuuge). Other than magic, you also have no way of depleting those big blocks that will be trying to hunt you, and they can afford to take the pain a lot more than you.

daemons are going to need to pick their targets and make a mess of them as quickly as possible, so I think you're going to see more bloodcrusher/fiend combos in the front and flank. Best damage output per inch of base-estate outside of greater demons, and you can MSU them up a bit better now.

and that's what worries me. Since daemon infantry are pretty feeble now, we're probably going to see a hard swing towards dodgy RAF style points denial lists, which demons can still do very well, but are very frustrating to play

I hope that rant clarifies my position


The op forgot tomb kings(will need mssive FAQ ) and beastmen on them I think slightly better due to step up and lore of beasts but they cost to much to hoard and have little/no armour and fairly low int but there big un's got better, as said a good few games and we will see.

tombkings are getting a new book in a couple of months, so comments are redundant and I haven't seen enough of beasts to be able to comment

honorandglory
27-06-2010, 07:08
You sir are much more eloquent and kind than I am.

therisnosaurus
28-06-2010, 23:20
hardly :P

It's all very interesting in any case. The more I look at things, the less noted changes seem to be the biggest (monsters getting 3 model ranks and 3 attacks in second rank notably) as far as the raw difference they make to the viability of overlooked units. Those units are naturally still overlooked by virtue of tradition, but soon enough things shall change...