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asdfghjkl
26-06-2010, 23:36
With the removal of special slot limits and the upgrade to d6 wounds. Would you consider 3 dwarf cannons for 270points to be beardy in 2000point games?

They seem a little undercosted for what they can now do.

theunwantedbeing
26-06-2010, 23:41
To be honest, most things in an army have 1 wound, chariots dont auto-explode so d6 wounds makes no difference as they're more survivable anyway and character's in units still get 2+ look out sir most of the time.
Going from D3 to D6 wounds makes no real difference.

3 cannons isnt beardy, its the 6 bolt throwers, 2 grudge throwers and 2x organ gun/flame cannons that put you well into beardy territory.

Or if your a complete tool you'll have a 3k dwarf army
with the full complement of
12 bolt throwers
6 cannons
6 grudge throwers
4 flame cannons

Hopefully nobody you know would actually play such a list.

omnivision6
26-06-2010, 23:42
I would regularly face two empire cannons and a hellblaster at that point level, so no I would not. But then again im just one gamer of millions.

Charistoph
27-06-2010, 00:21
Well, that's a whole bunch of static units for a whole lot of points that really couldn't stand up to any dedicated charge.

asdfghjkl
27-06-2010, 00:22
To be honest, most things in an army have 1 wound, chariots dont auto-explode so d6 wounds makes no difference as they're more survivable anyway and character's in units still get 2+ look out sir most of the time.

Going from D3 to D6 wounds makes no real difference.

I think it will make a difference, a couple of people I have spoken to are planning on using (relatively cheap) multi-wound ranked hammer units like trolls, kroxigors and rat/dragon ogres.

But mainly i'm thinking about Bloodthirsters and Dragon Mages.

Also I know that repeatedly spamming certain units in 40k is considered powerboregaming. I don't know if that's the same in fantasy. I just like the idea of bouncing cannonballs.

Aluinn
27-06-2010, 00:26
I think 3 artillery pieces at 2,000 is pretty normal for any army that can get them. In my 2k Empire I plan to take a cannon and 2 mortars. It may be an average game size but it definitely isn't small; anyone with reason to complain about it will have acess to either their own war machines or fliers, up to and including a flying monster for a character.

Cannons definitely didn't benefit as much as anything that uses a template, either, so I'd look into replacing one of those with a grudge thrower. It might seem weaker but you can give it armor piercing and it will wreak havoc on those blocks of 40-50 models that are being so hyped.

larabic
27-06-2010, 00:30
In 2000k i usually run 4-5 pieces of artillery as a dwarf. Course it doesn't help that the only rare choices we have are WM. Two bolt throwers and and a rock lobber with any combination of the rares, the rest of the army was all infantry, usually 3 big units, maybe a 4th for supporting fire or xbows.

decker_cky
27-06-2010, 01:53
Quick warning...cannons die twice as often to misfires as they do now, so you'll need to invest in some protective runes on those cannons, making them quite a bit more pricey.

SilentCivilian
27-06-2010, 06:49
A couple of things to bear in mind. This is based on a conversation i had last night. Warmachines will now have 1 profile. No more randomising hits. The crew will make up its wounds. 6`s to wound will always wound regardless of toughness. War machines have become arrow magnets now. A unit of 20 archers will only need 3 6`s to take it out. So no htis is not overpowered. Against any army that has alot of shooting you could loose them all in one round. Elves i am looking at you. ;)

shelfunit.
27-06-2010, 07:02
To be honest, most things in an army have 1 wound, chariots dont auto-explode so d6 wounds makes no difference as they're more survivable anyway and character's in units still get 2+ look out sir most of the time.
Going from D3 to D6 wounds makes no real difference.

3 cannons isnt beardy, its the 6 bolt throwers, 2 grudge throwers and 2x organ gun/flame cannons that put you well into beardy territory.

Or if your a complete tool you'll have a 3k dwarf army
with the full complement of
12 bolt throwers
6 cannons
6 grudge throwers
4 flame cannons

Hopefully nobody you know would actually play such a list.

Nobody following the rules at least - that's 1560pts of special you have there - but your point is valid, and you only need to drop a couple of BTs to make it legal - and you can have a fairly good combat line of warriors to back them up - on the first turn with a little luck you could annialate almost any opposing force.

HeroFox
27-06-2010, 07:37
Quick warning...cannons die twice as often to misfires as they do now, so you'll need to invest in some protective runes on those cannons, making them quite a bit more pricey.

Dwarves without RoForging on their cannons are obviously not playing Dwarves right :)

GuyLeCheval
27-06-2010, 09:58
My dual HPAs would think you are :p

Warning, idiotic comment arising: Dwarfs are always beardy...

*Expects laughter*

No? :(

Lord Malorne
27-06-2010, 10:09
Nobody following the rules at least - that's 1560pts of special you have there - but your point is valid, and you only need to drop a couple of BTs to make it legal - and you can have a fairly good combat line of warriors to back them up - on the first turn with a little luck you could annialate almost any opposing force.

Still not legal, from my understanding you are still only allowed 6 special units at that bracket.

zeebie
27-06-2010, 11:21
I don't understand why people take so many bolt throwers, if you read the passage in rule book in the army selection part it states "that you may take 1-2 bolt throwers", wouldn't that mean any more then 2 is over the limit.

3 cannons isn't really that over the top considering the dwarfs only have 2 options.. infantry or WM. I think double or triple organ guns will be fun.

ghostline
27-06-2010, 12:26
You can only take so much of the same choice.(up to 3 of the same type of special and 2 of the same type of rare)

So 2k gunline artillery train would be more like

6 bolt throwers
3 cannons
3 grudge throwers
(all of the above have engineers)
2 Flame Cannons
2 units of 10 thunderers w/musician
2 units of 11 thunderers w/musician(to break above the 500 point mark).
1 Master Engineer with some runic stuff for a general.

Not a terribly hard list to beat, if you dont eliminate your opponent in two turns of shooting you will be creamed... a skaven army with the storm banner will trounce you.

Korraz
27-06-2010, 14:45
Only 6 Bolt Throwers. No, the rule does nothing, because there are no slots any more. Same goes for O&G Throwers or Snotling Pump Wagons.

Aluinn
27-06-2010, 18:42
You can only take so much of the same choice.(up to 3 of the same type of special and 2 of the same type of rare)

So 2k gunline artillery train would be more like

6 bolt throwers
3 cannons
3 grudge throwers
(all of the above have engineers)
2 Flame Cannons
2 units of 10 thunderers w/musician
2 units of 11 thunderers w/musician(to break above the 500 point mark).
1 Master Engineer with some runic stuff for a general.

Not a terribly hard list to beat, if you dont eliminate your opponent in two turns of shooting you will be creamed... a skaven army with the storm banner will trounce you.

I think it would be a lot scarier if it was a bit more balanced and actually had some combat units. Gambling on literally destroying your opponent with shooting is bad; they'll get some units into combat and would even if you were allowed to spend 100% of your points on war machines.

If you dropped a couple war machines and 1-2 units of thunderers and took a couple sizeable units with great weapons instead, I think it would fare much, much better.

Urgat
27-06-2010, 19:13
Still not legal, from my understanding you are still only allowed 6 special units at that bracket.

BT are two for one, so it's fine.

Korraz
27-06-2010, 19:16
Two for One slot, however, there are none any more. The rule says "no more than 3 elites", and the old rule does nothing with the new system, until Errata.

theunwantedbeing
27-06-2010, 19:25
Two for One slot, however, there are none any more. The rule says "no more than 3 elites", and the old rule does nothing with the new system, until Errata.

The rules do cover this in 8th edition and state that 2 for 1 slots only count for a single choice, not 2.

Urgat
27-06-2010, 19:29
Two for One slot, however, there are none any more. The rule says "no more than 3 elites", and the old rule does nothing with the new system, until Errata.

Read the sentence: "you may select 1-2 BT as a single special choice". No mention of slots or whatever, the wording translates perfectly to the new rules.

RulesJD
27-06-2010, 19:30
Cannons with d6 wounds are distinctly better. You now have a chance of squishing large targets like dragons, bloodthirsters, treemen and stegadons in one shot. They will also work far better against monsterous infantry like ogres, kroxigors, minotaurs, ushabti, etc. With true line of sight, there will also be almost no where for the big models to hide. On a metagame note, more people will be taking big ranked infantry units where cannons and stone throwers will both be more effective.

Given misfire chances, I suspect Dwarves will be protecting their cannons and grudge throwers with runes making them more expensive and probably not going for flame cannon/organ guns in large numbers.

In either case, the BRB still limits you to only 3 identical special units and 2 identical rare units. This means that 6 bolt throwers, 3 cannons and three grudge throwers is what may be built at 2,000 to 2,500.

Big gun lines will probably not see tournament play too much. Skaven storm banner will nerf them rather consistently during the closing phase. The blood and glory scenario will see them instant lose (without banners). Heavy archer lists along with scouting, it came from below, ambush and tunneling will still murder gunlines.

Besides, with base 9 leadership, and steadfast, Dwarf infantry is now quite playable.

Korraz
27-06-2010, 21:06
Read the sentence: "you may select 1-2 BT as a single special choice". No mention of slots or whatever, the wording translates perfectly to the new rules.

So, if we follow that line, you can take 9 Bolt Throwers.

Freman Bloodglaive
27-06-2010, 21:25
Actually, if you're limited to three identical choices it could be argued that you can take 3 lots of 2, and 3 lots of 1 resulting in a total of 9. I wouldn't do it myself (Empire don't get bolt throwers) but I can see how it would play out.

Urgat
28-06-2010, 04:01
No, you can take 2 BT for one, but a BT remains a BT, and taking one or two BT is like taking a BT. It says nothing about being identical, it only says you may take 3 specials of that kind of unit. If you take 3 sets of 2 BT then 3 sets of 1, you got 6 sets of BT. I can't see any sensible way people could come to your conclusion, people should try and use that thing called common sense sometimes. Next people are going to argue they can take I don't know how many wolf charriots because three will have bows, the next three one more crew number, the three next have three wolves and the three last ones all options :eyebrows:

Col. Dash
28-06-2010, 11:09
Urgat is correct. Its 3(or two for rares) units of s particular type. With the way us Americans have figured out how to re-interpret the rules over the years you would have thought they would have had an example to clarify for the rules bending challenged.

Korraz
28-06-2010, 13:43
So...essentially two bolt throwers are one bolt thrower, but one bolt thrower isn't the same as two bolt throwers, yes?

Falkman
28-06-2010, 14:53
Two bolt throwers = 1 bolt thrower choice
One bolt thrower = 1 bolt thrower choice.
Not hard to understand.

Urgat
28-06-2010, 15:05
Not hard to understand.

You have to wonder.

Damocles8
28-06-2010, 15:23
So how are cannons going to misfire more often?

Falkman
28-06-2010, 15:54
They won't misfire more often, but they'll blow up more often as a result of misfires.

jet_palero
28-06-2010, 15:59
They won't misfire more often, but they'll blow up more often as a result of misfires.

Why is that?

Dwarfs do get engineers and runes to limit that as well.

Falkman
28-06-2010, 16:00
Because currently (7th ed) cannons only explode on a misfire result of 1, in 8th ed they explode on 1-2.

madden
28-06-2010, 16:15
Give them a 15pt engineer and reroll that misfire simples.

Falkman
28-06-2010, 16:42
Yes, but that doesn't change the fact that they are more prone to exploding than earlier.

Damocles8
28-06-2010, 17:52
Yes, but that doesn't change the fact that they are more prone to exploding than earlier.

so are there just 3 results? or does the misfire chart look all discombobulated now?

jet_palero
28-06-2010, 18:00
Because currently (7th ed) cannons only explode on a misfire result of 1, in 8th ed they explode on 1-2.

Thanks, I missed that. Man, i'm looking forward to having the book in my hands and no more of this "well, as I recall" stuff.:D

decker_cky
28-06-2010, 18:19
1-2 kaboom
3-4 miss next shot
5-6 shot fails

By the way, with a reroll, you explode 4 times as much as previously (2/6*2/6=4/36 whereas 1/6*1/6=1/36).

But yes...you can add 50 pts to each cannon and make it so they don't misfire and if they do they likely don't explode (plus a few other runes so they don't match), but then we're not talking about 270 pts, we're talking about 430+ pts on 3 cannons.

Another drawback of cannons is that you can't make shots that could hit your own units (so if you have units 20" along the shot's line, you can't make it).

Skyros
28-06-2010, 18:22
The cannons doing D6 wounds is actually kind of a big deal for dwarves, who really need them to kill monstrous creatures - dwarf infantry (at least in 7e) isn't strong enough to kill such stuff on its own.

Urgat
28-06-2010, 18:38
With stepping up and two ranks fighting, everybody got a good chance at killing those or at least making them break, methinks. Plus stubborn dwarfs all over the place :p

shelfunit.
28-06-2010, 19:10
so are there just 3 results? or does the misfire chart look all discombobulated now?

Ummm, there were always only 3 results - a) Kaboom, b) can fire this turn or next and c) can't fire this turn...