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Lornak Bloodgreed
28-06-2010, 00:14
(possibly) :p

That being said, was wondering what's POSITIVE (as in good or bad) about this big expensive looking new Warhammer Edition. I'm hearing a lot of gripes on multiple boards and I'm kinda getting cold feet about starting Warhammer, especially when i'm a 40K'er from childhood, hehe.

Also, my decision to start Tomb Kings seems to have come at a pre-determined time and date :evilgrin: considering I hear they have an update coming long over due. SO, what about THEM is there to look forward too aside from possibly 80-90% updates to their rather outdated range of minis?

Can't wait to see how it turns out! I might even make my first WHF "scorpion king" themed army, depending on the amount of thematic stuff comes out.

Neth
28-06-2010, 00:34
Just a quick reply about starting Tomb Kings. I would wait for their new book to come out before you do much since they are basically unplayable with the changes to magic especially. I'm not sure exactly when its coming out since I don't have an interest in them but jump over to the rumour forum and take a look.

Gonzoyola
28-06-2010, 00:58
I wouldnt rely on the input of one person with 8 posts, that doesn't indicate to me that they have spent any time reviewing the new rules.

For Tomb Kings = shooting improving, movement improving, (as much as anyone elses atleast), Accept no speculation on their magic at this time, as no one has ANY clue what will be erratad and FAQd, but the potential they have to ignore the insane miscast chart is incredible if that makes it through translation.

8th seems like it will be very entertaining, and a lot of things are expected to be brought more in line, so as it stands, TK were playable before, and they will be even more playable now

Darkspear
28-06-2010, 02:47
I wouldnt rely on the input of one person with 8 posts, that doesn't indicate to me that they have spent any time reviewing the new rules.

For Tomb Kings = shooting improving, movement improving, (as much as anyone elses atleast), Accept no speculation on their magic at this time, as no one has ANY clue what will be erratad and FAQd, but the potential they have to ignore the insane miscast chart is incredible if that makes it through translation.

8th seems like it will be very entertaining, and a lot of things are expected to be brought more in line, so as it stands, TK were playable before, and they will be even more playable now

I will not rely on the input of someone with merely 99 posts, that doesn't indicate to me that they have spent sufficient time on the hobby to give advice to newcomers.

My take is to wait on the forthcoming FAQ first (it is only days away) and check if the tombkings are still playable in the interim (their magic rules r inconsistent with the 8th ed rules now). After the FAQ were released, check on the TK rumors to see which minis were re-released. Honestly it takes some time to do up a warhammer army so it makes sense to start doing up a few miniatures while waiting for the new book. Unfortunately we are receiving many conflicting comments on the new miniature releases so the only "safe things to collect now" are carrion and tomb swarm. However if you are one who is very into competitive gaming, you may instead choose to wait for the 8th ed TK book to be release first before fixing up a list and buying your first miniatures.

tezdal
28-06-2010, 03:05
If you like the models, and you like fluff go for tomb kings, sure that might be the most overpowered army, but if ya love 'em you'll have fun win or lose

Gonzoyola
28-06-2010, 03:08
Well as someone who may not have as much time under his belt as Darkspear here, but still an eye for observation, guessing on which miniatures are going to be rereleased to base your starting army on can leave you disappointed in the long run. The Tomb Kings are certainly overdue for a new Army Book, but go ask the Ogre Kingdoms Wish listing thread how far needing a new book and hearing that your book will be out in the next year gets you, I've been hearing they would receive a new book for almost 2 years.

Even when TK get their update, I imagine they will see something akin to the treatment my Beasts of Chaos got. A nice little book to fill in the gaps and update a couple things, along with a limited release of any new models, most likely any metal troops in the army will be guaranteed to take up a "slot" in their wave of models, as it seems GW is slowly but surely converting whatever they can to plastic.


To wrap it up, I'll simply say that if you like the feel of ancient kings controlling undead legions, no new wave of models or FAQ is going to change that.

GreyHam
28-06-2010, 03:21
I wouldnt rely on the input of one person with 8 posts, that doesn't indicate to me that they have spent any time reviewing the new rules.

Number of posts is in no way has a direct relationship with someones knowledge on the game and the new addition. I may have very few posts but I have kept myself very up to date with all the 8th edition rumors. I am in no way saying I know everything since I'm new to fantasy but next time i recommend you don't jump to conclusions....:shifty:

Now back on topic. If you really love Tomb Kings I say go for it. Sure the models may change but it looks like you already like the current models and the new armybook will give you something to keep you excited after the release of 8th Edition. So if you really like the army I definitely say go for it. :)

Ultimate Life Form
28-06-2010, 03:22
So, how many posts does one need to qualify as an advisor in this thread? :angel:

Yes we all have read much whining about 8th here and probably elsewhere, but the fact that no one has any experience with this new system means that it is completely unfounded. I do not promise you it will be good (for I too haven't played it), but it would definitely be premature to give up on it based on the crying of some people who can no longer play their powergamer lists.

Tomb Kings are as old as they look and should get an upgrade within a year's time that is true, but they're not unplayable, that's simply nonsense as they got a small boost in 8th. They have a steep learning curve though, that's true. So my advise is that you get the models you like now for they may no longer be available soon.

Gonzoyola
28-06-2010, 03:40
Haha, certainly kicking myself for that remark, but it seemed like the best way to discredit someone who would make an absurd claim like the book being unplayable. I find myself too interested in the underdog army's, and I like to see them get support, when that happens, the books that get released afterwards have a better chance of seeing some actual thought in detail rather than just being passed into the hands of a low end author, and passing the sculpts on as practice for less experienced sculptors.

Still one thing I will stick adamantly by, Just because an army needs a new book, doesn't mean they will get it in x amount of time

Halelel
28-06-2010, 03:58
In response to the OP :

If you love TK, you'll love them even if they suck horribly and make you pull out your hair at every chance. I'm a glutton for punishment myself with my four armies being TK, O&G, Empire, and Ogres. Right now, I find my TK at the bottom of the barrel as the current competitive army compositions are quite boring (in my opinion). However, I am just itching for the opportunity to dust them off for 8th and to see what will work.

I don't think TK will be made into a top tier army (it's possible, but not probable) with the newest edition, but I think they will be made into a solid competitive army. You can also brag to your friends that you are an original TK player when the new book comes along and all the new TK players show up, :)

As far as models, I think chariots are still a safe bet as not being remade, maybe also the standard skeleton box, but it's possible it could still be changed. I think tomb guard and ushabti are probably the most likely to be remade into plastic kits (I haven't kept up with the TK rumors, but I'm sure someone might already have heard rumors of what is being remade). However, the current models are still solid and I probably won't buy the new plastic sets unless they completely blow me away or are of a new unit.

Without rambling too much more, buy them if you love them. They are a fun army even if they aren't as competitive as some of the newer, stronger armies.

Oh ya, they are easy as heck to paint as well, meaning less chance they just become expensive toys under your bed, haha.

Neth
28-06-2010, 04:00
Wow I log back on to this. Maybe I shouldn't have posted in a hurry :). Basically unplayable may have been to much. I play for fun and if you can have fun playing them then do it. That is the main thing. Just remember that in my mind with the changes to magic, increase in shooting, and the move towards blocks they aren't a strong army currently, unless the faq like darkspear said makes things clear.

ClockworkCorsair
28-06-2010, 04:08
If you are used to 40k then the new changes will be good for you. Well as long as you enjoy fifth.
if you like the models for the tk now then go ahead and start them up. Even low par armies can be fun and its unlikely tk will get worse.. also the new release may take longer than spe ulated why wait another five months.
More importantly who goves a damn about post count. Has nothing to do w playing the hobby merely trolling the boards which most boards tend to be more negative than irl.
(Sorry for poor grammar but I'm on my phone while playing a match. See post count doesn't equal game experience just time spent Not playing the game)

gdsora
28-06-2010, 04:16
So, how many posts does one need to qualify as an advisor in this thread? :angel:

Yes we all have read much whining about 8th here and probably elsewhere, but the fact that no one has any experience with this new system means that it is completely unfounded. I do not promise you it will be good (for I too haven't played it), but it would definitely be premature to give up on it based on the crying of some people who can no longer play their powergamer lists.

Tomb Kings are as old as they look and should get an upgrade within a year's time that is true, but they're not unplayable, that's simply nonsense as they got a small boost in 8th. They have a steep learning curve though, that's true. So my advise is that you get the models you like now for they may no longer be available soon.



its not nonsense

The new magic kinda screws them over.
With an army reliant on unfailing magic, that now can fail easily (new bound spell rules). It really puts down the army.

With casters getting +lvl, to dispel and cast
That annihilates a lot of incantations easily, as there are no caster levels. (a lvl 4 wizard can shut down magic easily)

Leadership/psychology has been greatly buffed for most armies ( Fear/Terror nerfed, BSB allowing rerolls of LD checks, stubborn with outnumbering)

Combat.... Majority of tomb king units suck at it (undead lol)
Attacking in ranks does not help skeletons at all.
The units that dont suck in combat, can get shot down quickly.


Shooting has improved for us, but everyone else also. Now makes our squishy targets even harder to keep alive (Scorpions, Giants, ushabti, chariots)

Ive already played a bunch of 8th edition games with my TK, and have seen no boost. (still love 8th edition though)


But Mr. OP
please wait till a FAQ, to clarify magic rules

Lornak Bloodgreed
28-06-2010, 13:35
Thank you for all your posts so far.

I've been reading the rumor round-up thread very thoroughly and my mind is just packed like fort knox with model ideas. I think I'm going to just wait for the Tomb Kings book to come out, and probably a job :P before I start throwing money at a new army, the new rulebook, and all the bits 'n bobs for measurement... (I really miss the "big box" of old with a full starter army inside BTW)

It'd be nice if ALL the GW locations within 100 miles of my address didn't close but that's business for ya. 3rd party hobby stores FTW.

I am almost wholly unfamiliar with the "magic" involved with WHF and if someone could legally enlighten me why TK are getting a kick in the pants in regards to magic, that would be great. :D

Also, any actual TK players (seems like there are a few) out there have any bare-bones army composition ideas? I don't think the current beginners article is up to date.

edit:http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=cat40030&categoryId=400026&section=&aId=2100020

Thanks again for your help!

edit: just a wee bit of inspiration I discovered last evening. http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/home/flash/2009_05_LandoftheDead_Trailer.html

gdsora
28-06-2010, 15:58
Thank you for all your posts so far.

I've been reading the rumor round-up thread very thoroughly and my mind is just packed like fort knox with model ideas. I think I'm going to just wait for the Tomb Kings book to come out, and probably a job :P before I start throwing money at a new army, the new rulebook, and all the bits 'n bobs for measurement... (I really miss the "big box" of old with a full starter army inside BTW)

It'd be nice if ALL the GW locations within 100 miles of my address didn't close but that's business for ya. 3rd party hobby stores FTW.

I am almost wholly unfamiliar with the "magic" involved with WHF and if someone could legally enlighten me why TK are getting a kick in the pants in regards to magic, that would be great. :D

Also, any actual TK players (seems like there are a few) out there have any bare-bones army composition ideas? I don't think the current beginners article is up to date.

edit:http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=cat40030&categoryId=400026&section=&aId=2100020

Thanks again for your help!

edit: just a wee bit of inspiration I discovered last evening. http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/home/flash/2009_05_LandoftheDead_Trailer.html



Ill try to explain TK magic for you.

Tomb kings have their own magic rules seperate from the normal magic rules.
in 7th edition. They functioned as bound spells with varying power levels.
There magic was simply cast, by rolling a D6(prince/king) 2d6(Liche Priest) 3d6(High Liche Priest)

The roll would determine the power level of the spell, and it would be automatically cast at that level unless dispelled.

No miscasts, no irresistible force, no failing on a roll below 3.

The army needed this to function, we have weak units, that can never march, and unlike vampire counts we can not create new undead, only revive what was lost during the game.


Well in 8th edition, bound spells are no longer cast automatically. You have to roll power dice equal or above the bound spells power level for it to cast.

Well that means for tomb kings, you would have to roll for the power level of the spell, and then try to cast it with power dice. Meaning TK can now fail to cast the spell.

With an army so reliant on those incantations its not a good thing at all.

Another problem, is that Casters add there power level to dispel, and cast roll

so a lvl 4 caster will alwasy have a +4 to cast and dispel.

TK dont have caster levels, thus putting us below a lot of armies.

Rikkjourd
28-06-2010, 16:11
I'd say don't do TK until we know exactly what they are getting (8th update or new book), currently they are completely worthless both in 7th and in 8th. I too have a TK army waiting for revival, and though I like the models and theme I can't bring myself to play them.

Lornak Bloodgreed
28-06-2010, 20:31
This sounds like their 8th Ed. will be getting a big buff to their army's physical strengths, maybe they will be a little more op like good 'ole necrons ^_^

Either that or their new "magic" rule will be their spells cant be dispelled or their spells totally usurp the current edition rules. I don't know, just throwing it out there. :P

Still, I'd do the new book and army JUST because I think GW is going to really put out some fine models. I'm just hoping that the skellies are actually skeletal and not tree-stump thick. I'd love an army of really "scary" looking mummified skeletal legionnaires not a bunch of cut/paste skellies. Since the army's warriors are not throw away like VC skellies, and it seems TK emphasizes their use, they should be easy to "kill" but much easier to bring back to life. I just hope they can kill things back... seeing how they are undead Egyptian warrior-perfectionists bent on methodically spearing, cutting, and shooting down everything in their path, they should have some umf to 'em. :D

edit: TK aren't the ONLY army im interested in picking up as well, to be sure. I've had my eye on the Wood Elves since they got redone. I like their Celtic theme and their 80% massed ranged tactics. Strongly considering them too ^_^.

wizbix
28-06-2010, 20:51
I wouldnt rely on the input of one person with 8 posts, that doesn't indicate to me that they have spent any time reviewing the new rules.




Its this kind of logic from the few that give Warseer a bad reputation. There again, what would I know, I havent posted much either.

Sadesuteku
28-06-2010, 23:48
Its this kind of logic from the few that give Warseer a bad reputation. There again, what would I know, I havent posted much either.
Well that, and the fact that no other site like this, from my experience, could ever come close to the amount of whining this site has.

Bob Khemeri
29-06-2010, 01:42
My will be done is going to be undispellable. It is the only possible option. If dispel dice are determined by power dice and our spells are not rolled on anyway then how would it possibly work. I imagine priests become like normal mages with a new lore with a buffer ivocation that can be dispelled.

Either way a unit of 3 ushbati will be getting 18 str 6 attacks and possibly 6 impact hits.

It is the only way to give TK the buffs needed to compete.

Tk will be the most maneuverable army in the game and with extra reforms/movements/charges/attacks/shooting it will be their flavor that every army receives.

Few examples of our tactics that will come with this one change.

5 carrion could be 20 str 3 attacks.
3 ushbati having 18str 6, 6 str 6 impact hits
A unit of 5 wide tomb guard with a king could have 8 str 7 attacks and 8 str 4 attacks. or give the king a 3+ attacks item and make it 14 str 5 attacks.

People will tell you my will be done is going to be dispellable but only because they fear what TK are about to become.

Charistoph
29-06-2010, 04:39
Well that, and the fact that no other site like this, from my experience, could ever come close to the amount of whining this site has.

No Warhammer site could true, but few other Warhammer site provides such a broad focus of the games.

But as for whining, I see more whining on Warcraft forums in half an hour, than I see on Warseer in several hours.

Tomb Kings are an incredible army. I wish I could stand playing them well enough.

White_13oy
29-06-2010, 05:09
3 ushbati having 18str 6, 6 str 6 impact hits

How exactly are three Ushabti getting that many attacks? I've played Tomb Kings since 2005, I love everything about them, They are a very weak army, but if you have fun and don't mind losing, you'll have a blast. I like to take away a "moral" victory a lot.